Revert or alter the empower change

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO

I think that empower should at least apply to your next HA in addition to the proposed LA change. I get not wanting it to apply to skills, but when you start favoring one type of basic attack (LA vs HA) it starts to destroy potential builds and force people more and more the the LA weaving meta.

I'm gonna catch crap for this, but I've been experimenting with a build that basically relies on HA + empowered and removing empowered from that would basically destroy it, whereas every meta is already LA weaving except maybe the EZ 30k sorc HA build.

Arobain

i agree with you

Beardimus

Agreed on avoid pigeon holed meta but prefer they just didn't change it.

GreenSoup2HoT

1 problem op. Gankers and heavy attacks is something you gotta watch out for. Give that 40% buff to a nightblade and your getting 1 shot by a destro or 2h heavy attacks.

The change is a good one, no more empowering ultimate's.

venomsky

I got great idea, how about making it direct DMG skill for stam dk?

Jadokis

venomsky wrote: »

I got great idea, how about making it direct DMG skill for stam dk?

????

Strider__Roshin

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

1 problem op. Gankers and heavy attacks is something you gotta watch out for. Give that 40% buff to a nightblade and your getting 1 shot by a destro or 2h heavy attacks.

The change is a good one, no more empowering ultimate's.

Agreed.

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO

This is an unpopular opinion I'm sure.. but:

PvP doesn't matter in this game. It's a zerg-fest large scale battle system. One or a few people getting exploded happens regardless of if it's one enemy doing it or multiple people coordinating and targeting the same person. The counter to stuff in these environments is always the same. Better teamwork with more people. It will win every time.

If they had small scale competitive stuff like wow's arena and not just open world, sure, that might be a consideration.

I'd really prefer PvE balance come first and they find some other way to balance PvP without affecting it. Add resilience, cap damage from a single hit source, etc. Do something else to mitigate, because the way it currently is, you can't balance long windup single hit attacks with small consecutive attacks and not have huge burst.

They could just reduce how long heavy attacks take and reduce the damage, but my guess is they want a large difference between LA & HA to emphasize "oh yes, I'm definitely doing a HA now!"

GrumpyDuckling

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO wrote: »

This is an unpopular opinion I'm sure.. but:

PvP doesn't matter in this game. It's a zerg-fest large scale battle system. One or a few people getting exploded happens regardless of if it's one enemy doing it or multiple people coordinating and targeting the same person. The counter to stuff in these environments is always the same. Better teamwork with more people. It will win every time.

If they had small scale competitive stuff like wow's arena and not just open world, sure, that might be a consideration.

I'd really prefer PvE balance come first and they find some other way to balance PvP without affecting it. Add resilience, cap damage from a single hit source, etc. Do something else to mitigate, because the way it currently is, you can't balance long windup single hit attacks with small consecutive attacks and not have huge burst.

They could just reduce how long heavy attacks take and reduce the damage, but my guess is they want a large difference between LA & HA to emphasize "oh yes, I'm definitely doing a HA now!"

Does Battlegrounds not fit into the description of "small scale competitive stuff?"

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO

They do I suppose, but you'd have to prove to me that near-instant death doesn't already happen in those to make the point that "the risk of instant death from <x> combo is too high!"

Honestly, I'd be fine if they left it as 20% but only on LA/HA, too. Or just left it as-is. 40% to LAs ONLY means LA weaving will be mandatory for any/every build, though, and that the meta will accelerate even farther ahead of non-meta builds.

People complain in wow when there's maybe a 10% discrepancy between talent choices on the same tier, yet people seem to be fine with the few meta builds being over double that of non-meta builds in ESO. Just does not compute to me. So, any change that further pidgeon-holes people towards those builds will get negative reactions from me.

Dracane

So all of you are using magelight inbetween light attacks to empower them or what ?
This change is totally non sensual and won't alter DPS in any way, because nobody uses empowered inbetween abilities.
All that is achieved by this change, is that Overload gankers become umcomfortably more common.

Reloader84

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO wrote: »

This is an unpopular opinion I'm sure.. but:

PvP doesn't matter in this game. It's a zerg-fest large scale battle system. One or a few people getting exploded happens regardless of if it's one enemy doing it or multiple people coordinating and targeting the same person. The counter to stuff in these environments is always the same. Better teamwork with more people. It will win every time.

If they had small scale competitive stuff like wow's arena and not just open world, sure, that might be a consideration.

I'd really prefer PvE balance come first and they find some other way to balance PvP without affecting it. Add resilience, cap damage from a single hit source, etc. Do something else to mitigate, because the way it currently is, you can't balance long windup single hit attacks with small consecutive attacks and not have huge burst.

They could just reduce how long heavy attacks take and reduce the damage, but my guess is they want a large difference between LA & HA to emphasize "oh yes, I'm definitely doing a HA now!"

While Cyrodiil does have zergs there are typically many small battles and solo fights. To say that PvP is just one big zerg-fest is inaccurate. The changes to empower, since its only to the next ability, currently does not make much of a difference in PvE except for your ultimate for all classes but the Magicka Templar using Dark Flare. In PvP empower allows for classes with high burst to gain an advantage that is tough to recover from. This is even more so battlegrounds as you do not have the CP to recover like you do in Cyrodiil. Most games open world pvp are ruined by itemization stats like resilience. The beauty about this game is that they make many PvE sets worth utilizing in PvP which promotes game play on both sides of the spectrum so that you're not stuck in the same build as your enemy allowing for many different builds and play styles.

So with an exception of Dark Flare (Templar), there should be nothing but a change of your rotation in PvE with a minimal change in damage. Change my mind.

Joy_Division

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO wrote: »

They do I suppose, but you'd have to prove to me that near-instant death doesn't already happen in those to make the point that "the risk of instant death from <x> combo is too high!"

Honestly, I'd be fine if they left it as 20% but only on LA/HA, too. Or just left it as-is. 40% to LAs ONLY means LA weaving will be mandatory for any/every build, though, and that the meta will accelerate even farther ahead of non-meta builds.

People complain in wow when there's maybe a 10% discrepancy between talent choices on the same tier, yet people seem to be fine with the few meta builds being over double that of non-meta builds in ESO. Just does not compute to me. So, any change that further pidgeon-holes people towards those builds will get negative reactions from me.

What do you mean mandatory? The last time I used the empower buff in PvE was ... the one time I tried the disappointing Solar Barrage skill about a year ago.

Was your DPS rotation Magelight, HA, Mage light HA, Mage light , HA?

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO

Joy_Division wrote: »

So with an exception of Dark Flare (Templar), there should be nothing but a change of your rotation in PvE with a minimal change in damage. Change my mind.

I only like 2h weapons and I really only like PvE content. I don't enjoy DoTs being a major source of my damage and I don't like bows or dw.

My rotation is Molten Armaments + Momentum + Rearming Trap + Wrecking + HA + Wrecking + HA + Wrecking + HA, repeat when buffs run out.

Empower not applying to those heavies will basically neuter my build to nothing and I was getting so close.

Inb4 "use a meta build then if u want to pve!"
No. I want to PvE as the character I see in my mind, my archetype. The moment the game says straight up "no chance" for the type of content I want to do (vet trials) is the moment I quit and go back to wow. There's a lot to like about this game, but combat and build flexibility are not it.

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO

Joy_Division wrote: »

What do you mean mandatory? The last time I used the empower buff in PvE was ... the one time I tried the disappointing Solar Barrage skill about a year ago.

Was your DPS rotation Magelight, HA, Mage light HA, Mage light , HA?

I mean mandatory as in LA weaving, not empower.

Joy_Division

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

So with an exception of Dark Flare (Templar), there should be nothing but a change of your rotation in PvE with a minimal change in damage. Change my mind.

I only like 2h weapons and I really only like PvE content. I don't enjoy DoTs being a major source of my damage and I don't like bows or dw.

My rotation is Molten Armaments + Momentum + Rearming Trap + Wrecking + HA + Wrecking + HA + Wrecking + HA, repeat when buffs run out.

Empower not applying to those heavies will basically neuter my build to nothing and I was getting so close.

Inb4 "use a meta build then if u want to pve!"
No. I want to PvE as the character I see in my mind, my archetype. The moment the game says straight up "no chance" for the type of content I want to do (vet trials) is the moment I quit and go back to wow. There's a lot to like about this game, but combat and build flexibility are not it.

Umm, I didn't say that.

You're not the first special snowflake whose idiosyncratic build was ruined by a change ZoS made.

And no, you're whole it's-perfectly-fine-to-ruin PvP-balance-so-I-can-still-PvE-with-my-special-snowflake-build logic has not convinced me.

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO

Joy_Division wrote: »

Umm, I didn't say that.

You're not the first special snowflake whose idiosyncratic build was ruined by a change ZoS made.

And no, you're whole it's-perfectly-fine-to-ruin PvP-balance-so-I-can-still-PvE-with-my-special-snowflake-build logic has not convinced me.

So is pvp broken right now?

Would it be broken if they just made empower (at it's current 20%) apply to the next basic attack (heavy/light)?

And I don't think I'm a special snowflake. I think this change is unwarranted. I think they need to balance their damn game so other skills actually get use and encourage other playstyles outside of the current crap one where all you do is buff/dot management. If you want to say the word snowflake, then sure. I think everyone should be able to be special snowflakes, otherwise what is the point of all this choice?

Capt_Morgan

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Umm, I didn't say that.

You're not the first special snowflake whose idiosyncratic build was ruined by a change ZoS made.

And no, you're whole it's-perfectly-fine-to-ruin PvP-balance-so-I-can-still-PvE-with-my-special-snowflake-build logic has not convinced me.

So is pvp broken right now?

Would it be broken if they just made empower (at it's current 20%) apply to the next basic attack (heavy/light)?

And I don't think I'm a special snowflake. I think this change is unwarranted. I think they need to balance their damn game so other skills actually get use and encourage other playstyles outside of the current crap one where all you do is buff/dot management. If you want to say the word snowflake, then sure. I think everyone should be able to be special snowflakes, otherwise what is the point of all this choice?

Buff and DoT management then moving into a spammable is LITERALLY what you are doing as well... Its like saying they shouldn't make every car drive by having the wheels turn. It's nonsensical. The only thing you're upset about is that your variation of the DoT management into spammable is losing 20% buff to ONE of the components of your dps rotation. And honestly it is the weakest component of that rotation. It is far from being the end of the world and is entirely negated by the change to 2H set pieces. You will be fine still playing 2H build in fact this patch will buff your build most likely. This is far from the end of the world for 2H builds.

rafaelcsmaia

Guess its time for my overload to rise again to farm some salty tears

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO

Capt_Morgan wrote: »

Buff and DoT management then moving into a spammable is LITERALLY what you are doing as well... Its like saying they shouldn't make every car drive by having the wheels turn. It's nonsensical.

Hardly on the level of bow/caltrops. I only use rearming for the crit dmg buff. Even if it did no dmg I'd still use it. Also, just because this is the way I have to do it to even get close (as opposed to something more like a combo system or heaven forbid abilities having CDs so you can't just use them whenever you like) doesn't mean it's ideal. The combo effect of wb -> ha is more the interaction I like.

The only thing you're upset about is that your variation of the DoT management into spammable is losing 20% buff to ONE of the components of your dps rotation.

Yes, because my build relies on it and I fail to see how something that is underpowered should be nerfed as a side-effect to some blanket change fixing something that isn't broken.

And honestly it is the weakest component of that rotation.

HAs account for 40%+ of my dmg on a 3 mil parse.

It is far from being the end of the world and is entirely negated by the change to 2H set pieces. You will be fine still playing 2H build in fact this patch will buff your build most likely. This is far from the end of the world for 2H builds.

This is a welcome change for sure, but it is a slight buff at best with this nerf. I doubt there's any monster set that gives 20% damage back. It also removes the interaction I crave of combo-ing.

Again, removing build potential and forcing the meta of "PvE = dot build, PvP = direct big single hit dmg" is dumb to me. Should be opening things up and trying to balance cross the board, not forcing cookie cutter.

ajaxtheboss

Overload ganking is going to be insane with empower change

DeadlyRecluse

TBH the empower change in general feels really needless. Not sure what the intent of it is--it removes a few degenerate combos but empowers others.

jypcy

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO wrote: »

Again, removing build potential and forcing the meta of "PvE = dot build, PvP = direct big single hit dmg" is dumb to me. Should be opening things up and trying to balance cross the board, not forcing cookie cutter.

I mean, the meta is what it is: most effective tactic available (I think this is an anochronistic etymology, but it fits the principle). Even if playstyle A performs only 2% better than playstyle B, meta chasers will still go after what the most effective way to play is. If you want to skip the meta and play how you want then that’s fine, but imo you should think more in terms of viability than effectiveness (else you end up chasing the meta again, just by definition. And either you balance everything to be exactly the same, which I’m guessing doesn’t interest you, or by virtue of differences, there WILL be a meta).

In terms of viability, then, I assure you: the meta is NOT the only viable option. From my limited pvp knowledge, yes, big hit burst is the way to go. But even if they might not be as effective, bleed (sustained damage) builds are still very viable. Depending on the target, they might even be better than big burst. Stam tend to be able to dodge/kite big combos, but often have a harder time purging/healing through a bunch of dots.
In pve, you can hit with really big burst, but chances are that really big burst isn’t going to be 5 mil+ worth of damage. So you’ll have to set it up again and burst again, and again, and again. Dots could fill in the space between your big combos, but shouldn’t be absolutely necessary to have a viable build.
A few other items: if I remember correctly it’s wrecking blow that gives empower, so if it’s the synergy between passives you crave, maybe you could try HA > WB > LA > Brawler > repeat. The change to resource scaling with HA/LA should also be a buff to your build and help make up for lost damage due to the proposed empower change— which, going by rough calculations, would be only about 8% lost damage based on your parse. The 2pc slimecraw set actually buffs your damage that same amount, but there are others you could run too that you’ll likely find work well.

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO

jypcy wrote: »

I mean, the meta is what it is: most effective tactic available (I think this is an anochronistic etymology, but it fits the principle). Even if playstyle A performs only 2% better than playstyle B, meta chasers will still go after what the most effective way to play is. If you want to skip the meta and play how you want then that’s fine, but imo you should think more in terms of viability than effectiveness

I already do. The difference being that nothing comes close to the meta currently. We're talking 40k vs like sub 20k for non-meta. If I can break 30k (the dps typically lauded as "viable") then I'll be happy. That's still only 75% of what the best builds get, which is garbage, but I'd accept it at this point.

And either you balance everything to be exactly the same, which I’m guessing doesn’t interest you

You would be wrong. It is the single most "interesting" thing to me. I know it's a pipe dream, so I accept SMALL discrepancies. Case-in-point: I used non-meta stats in wow and still pulled 99th percentile parses. Could I have performed better? Sure, but the difference wasn't enough to force the community to ostracize me the way it would if I tried to do even normal trials right now.

jypcy

30k might often get lauded as viable, but that’s setting the bar too high for it. Honestly I’d venture that 15k is viable for most content in this game. As long as you keep up with mechanics, there aren’t too many encounters in this game with dps-check wipe mechanics.

And re: the second bit, I mean literally like 2h is just reskinned dw, fire, ice, and lightning damage is purely aesthetic, etc. Again, differences in playstyle between weapon types, classes, and so on will lead to differences in performance. Absolute balance would end up being pretty cookie cutter, which you lambasted as I read it. Maybe this is what you want and I was indeed wrong, just wanted to clarify.

If your concern is getting ostracized for using non meta, then that’s just finding other people to play with. I’ll agree that a lot of people are very focused on the meta in this game, so I understand that they can be hard to find. If it helps, maybe you’d find kindred spirits with some of the people in this thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/393733/helping-make-unique-builds

Edit: also I just went back and looked at your rotation. I’m not sure what the other skills on your bars are, but that’s a lot of wasted dps potential if you’re only using 4 skills out of 10 possible slots. Even just including executioner and finding out at what percentage that becomes a stronger spammable than wrecking blow should increase your dps. Including things like flames of oblivion and brawler should increase your dps further and neither one’s dot should be too major a source of dps, so hopefully still fit into your vision.

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO

I'm not interested in having to search high and low for like-minded individuals who are more accepting of sub-standard performance, because their skill level often matches their open-mindedness. Not saying I'm unique, but in my experience, it's a rare combo of people who are wholly too stubborn and yet completely capable of getting top tier performance numbers. I want to be able to do what I want and get the numbers I could otherwise if I were to just break down on that front. To that end, being accepted by people who I want to be accepted by means 30k minimum, and that's still pushing it for some vet trials.

I had the exact experience you're talking about as a ret paladin in wow. Not interested in a repeat.

As for "skills are skills and weapon skins are just re-skins that mean nothing" that's fine by me. Aesthetic value is probably the most important thing when it comes to even getting me in the door to play a game. No 2h weapons in a western RPG? No buy. Mechanics are the next most important thing. Debuff maintenance, dots, etc, are all some of my least favorite. I made some concessions with using three long duration buffs that enable me to focus more on casting direct damage just to even make it semi viable.

About the absolute balance part: It wouldn't end up being cookie cutter unless zen got lazy and used homogenization over extreme numbers tweaking (I have no repertoire with them, so I can't say how they would handle it), but that's a discussion for another thread and this is starting to derail.

I have a lot to say about the build stuff as well, but that's also not the point of this thread. Suffice to say that I know how to get more dmg, just not interested in what it currently takes. I'm not asking for no skill aspect to the gameplay, but removing skill interactions or reducing them to very specific circumstances is only going to limit possibility even more.

davey1107

Don’t fight with joy div. whatever dissatisfactions he faces at work or home, he brings into the forums...because god knows the world won’t spin if you don’t belligerently criticize everyone and everything.

I agree with your post...the empower changes seem stupid. There looks like quite a few changes that seek to play up the importance of light and heavy attacks. This feels like a waste of time and energy on the part of the combat team, and makes me think that Zos should shift some people around to different games to bring in some new ideas. The last major update was synergies...this one looks like it’s light attacks. Yeah...it’s time for some new combat people.

ToRelax

1.) Make it not work on Overload.

2.) Add the lost 20% directly to Meteor.

That's all I want.

SugaComa

Remove empower on damage altogether and problem solved ... Instead have it work on resource management so your next light attack return resources next heavy return increased resources

Avran_Sylt

Wait until it has been Tested/Used.

adriant1978

They aren't going to be interested in changing this since, as was pointed out to me in another thread, the LA weaving meta is now so firmly embedded in the game that even the new level up adviser suggests it to you.