A DK's plea to move Expedition from Chains to Spiked Armor.

Savos_Saren

I know that some people consider DKs as a stand-your-ground class (which is fine)- but I was hoping that ZOS would consider moving our Major Expedition from Chains to Spiked Armor. Here's the logic behind it:

#1. Major Expedition on a gap closer doesn't make sense. Usually the tank/dd/healer is in a hurry to get up to the fight (across a keep or battlegrounds or dungeon). By the time you're in gap closing range, it's too late. I burn most of my stamina just sprinting to keep up with the group. The same goes for escaping a fight. My healer shouldn't have to gap close to an enemy... just to turn around and hopefully catch up to my group.

#2. Healers and DDs aren't stand-your-ground. I've got all three roles on three of my DKs. My healer needs to be able to get away from the fight and continue healing my group. And a healer usually doesn't equip either version of chains... nor is there a healing staff passive to boost speed.

#3. Stam DKs already have access to expedition through stam abilities like Quick Cloak, Rapids, etc. The only way for a MagDK to get expedition without a target is pigeonholed into a vampire ability... which you can't regen magic while it's active. (And it forces mDKs to be vunerable to a very powerful stam attack- DBoS)

#4. ZOS was kind enough to give Minor Expedition to MagPlars in the next update through a non-targeted skill. I'm hoping that ZOS could extend the favor to MagDKs by moving their form of expedition to a non-targeting skill such as Spiked Armor. That way, most DKs will have the option to use it (including my healer). Hell, they can even change it to Minor Expedition. I just would like a little help in catching up to my allies.

Please give any constructive feedback.

LokoMatic

It would be nice to take mistform off my back bar for a change. They could add major / minor expedition to just about any skill other than chains for a start.

Carbonised

Id rather see it on base skill of wings. More thematically appropriate too

KingJ

This a great idea.

The_Brosteen

I'm into this idea but I know they aren't going to want to do it.

The "vision" for dks (in pvp) is supposed to be that they hold their ground and keep the enemy nearby, not chase them down and out maneuver.

It would be sweet to have major or minor expedition without chains or pots, but I really doubt it'll happen.

LeagueTroll

Dude you need class skill have different, sorc boundless storm already give speed buff.

NyassaV

No, DK is powerful enough I don't need them sprinting at me. If gap closers had a increased range I'd be happy. That way chains could be used more often and easier

ak_pvp

Nah. Shouldn't be fast, should have snare immunity. I wouldn't even give dk a gapcloser

Savos_Saren

ak_pvp wrote: »

Nah. Shouldn't be fast, should have snare immunity. I wouldn't even give dk a gapcloser

So the DK healers are supposed to be stand their ground, too? That doesn't make sense, bud.

Savos_Saren

NyassaV wrote: »

No, DK is powerful enough I don't need them sprinting at me. If gap closers had a increased range I'd be happy. That way chains could be used more often and easier

You already have DKs sprinting at you. StamDKs can gapclose and have major expedition. And this isn't about your class. It's about improving another class as it expands beyond just tanking.

ak_pvp

Savos_Saren wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Nah. Shouldn't be fast, should have snare immunity. I wouldn't even give dk a gapcloser

So the DK healers are supposed to be stand their ground, too? That doesn't make sense, bud.

Aye all those templar heals with major expedition. Oh wait.

Farscape76

I agree totally with you OP

This would be a great help without a balance breaking change. Here's hoping ZOS reads this and agrees.

Savos_Saren

ak_pvp wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Nah. Shouldn't be fast, should have snare immunity. I wouldn't even give dk a gapcloser

So the DK healers are supposed to be stand their ground, too? That doesn't make sense, bud.

Aye all those templar heals with major expedition.

Templars are getting expedition in the next update. Apparently ZOS realizes that the healer needs to be able to keep up with the group, too.

When you advocate for you class- try not to limit your imagination to your own playstyle. I see that your signature says Blocktanking... but a healer nor DPS does that.

Abysswarrior45

Mag dk is in a perfectly reasonable spot currently if they removed befoul, Zaan, and the *** tank meta. In fact, mag dk is in a better spot than stam dk on its own. The only way for stam dk to be remotely competitive is to run a heal debuff aids build with SnB or a dot build similar to what you see in dueling, but both of those limit a dks Xing potential since shields are immune to status effects like pen crit and defile and dots aren't exactly bursty in a 1vX. This is coming from someone who played both classes since launch. Buff stam dk, leave mag dk alone, balance the damn game ifs, ZOS.

Minno

Savos_Saren wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Nah. Shouldn't be fast, should have snare immunity. I wouldn't even give dk a gapcloser

So the DK healers are supposed to be stand their ground, too? That doesn't make sense, bud.

Aye all those templar heals with major expedition.

Templars are getting expedition in the next update. Apparently ZOS realizes that the healer needs to be able to keep up with the group, too.

When you advocate for you class- try not to limit your imagination to your own playstyle. I see that your signature says Blocktanking... but a healer nor DPS does that.

DKs get that spell too. But both classes suffer from limited bar setups, so it will be hard to gain that ability.

I already had been trying to think of ways to fit it, but it requires dropping a crit/power buff from an ability and place it to a pot.

Therefore if DJs get a major expedition on a self buff in their kit, I want Templars to receive the same

Savos_Saren

Abysswarrior45 wrote: »

Mag dk is in a perfectly reasonable spot currently if they removed befoul, Zaan, and the *** tank meta. In fact, mag dk is in a better spot than stam dk on its own. The only way for stam dk to be remotely competitive is to run a heal debuff aids build with SnB or a dot build similar to what you see in dueling, but both of those limit a dks Xing potential since shields are immune to status effects like pen crit and defile and dots aren't exactly bursty in a 1vX. This is coming from someone who played both classes since launch. Buff stam dk, leave mag dk alone, balance the damn game ifs, ZOS.

I'm trying to figure out what your rant about buffing stamDKs has anything to do with moving expedition around. Perhaps you should make your own post and advocate for buffs?

Savos_Saren

Minno wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Nah. Shouldn't be fast, should have snare immunity. I wouldn't even give dk a gapcloser

So the DK healers are supposed to be stand their ground, too? That doesn't make sense, bud.

Aye all those templar heals with major expedition.

Templars are getting expedition in the next update. Apparently ZOS realizes that the healer needs to be able to keep up with the group, too.

When you advocate for you class- try not to limit your imagination to your own playstyle. I see that your signature says Blocktanking... but a healer nor DPS does that.

DKs get that spell too. But both classes suffer from limited bar setups, so it will be hard to gain that ability.

I already had been trying to think of ways to fit it, but it requires dropping a crit/power buff from an ability and place it to a pot.

Therefore if DJs get a major expedition on a self buff in their kit, I want Templars to receive the same

I feel you, 100%. I think that all classes (stam/mag) should have non-targeted expedition available. If ZOS wants to make each class have healer/Tank/DPS roles... then they need to allow each class to have the mobility to perform their roles.

Would it break the game if a Templar or DK moved faster to catch up to their group? Nope. Stand-Your-Ground should only apply to the tanks in our classes. And if that's the case- then it should apply to all tanks (Sorc, NB, Warden)... because that's what tanks are supposed to do. Stand their ground.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Major expedition makes absolutely ZERO sense on chains. "GET OVER HERE" runs away...

It makes sense in one of two places, Spiked armor or Wings, in my opinion. I dont think a super long major expedition buff makes sense on a DK, but a short duration buff does make sense. Since they are adding some sort of snare removal to wings, I would probably like a few seconds of ME included with it. I dont think it would be OP in any way.

If you compare the two, Spiked armor is more of a long duration buff that you cast on cooldown and wings is more of a reactive skill you cast as the situation arises. I would probably prefer the speed buff on the later.

Savos_Saren

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Major expedition makes absolutely ZERO sense on chains. "GET OVER HERE" runs away...

It makes sense in one of two places, Spiked armor or Wings, in my opinion. I dont think a super long major expedition buff makes sense on a DK, but a short duration buff does make sense. Since they are adding some sort of snare removal to wings, I would probably like a few seconds of ME included with it. I dont think it would be OP in any way.

If you compare the two, Spiked armor is more of a long duration buff that you cast on cooldown and wings is more of a reactive skill you cast as the situation arises. I would probably prefer the speed buff on the later.

My thoughts exactly, Oreyn. It doesn't need to last the full duration of the skill it's attached to.... just maybe a few seconds. I chose Spiked Armor because it's a pretty universal skill amongst DKs and putting it on Wings would be a little too similar to Warden. Thanks for your input.

Kilandros

Agreed that it should be on something other than Chains. Spiked Armor, Dragon's Blood, Reflective Scales would all be good skills that could use Major Expedition.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Major expedition makes absolutely ZERO sense on chains. "GET OVER HERE" runs away...

It makes sense in one of two places, Spiked armor or Wings, in my opinion. I dont think a super long major expedition buff makes sense on a DK, but a short duration buff does make sense. Since they are adding some sort of snare removal to wings, I would probably like a few seconds of ME included with it. I dont think it would be OP in any way.

If you compare the two, Spiked armor is more of a long duration buff that you cast on cooldown and wings is more of a reactive skill you cast as the situation arises. I would probably prefer the speed buff on the later.

My thoughts exactly, Oreyn. It doesn't need to last the full duration of the skill it's attached to.... just maybe a few seconds. I chose Spiked Armor because it's a pretty universal skill amongst DKs and putting it on Wings would be a little too similar to Warden. Thanks for your input.

Yeah, the other criticism might be that it would start to smell an awful lot like mist form if you gave both expedition and snare removal on the same skill. That said, there is a reason most people are vamps. Usually when you need one, you need the other so having both on the same skill is really handy.

As stated, Dragon Blood would also be a good option.

MaxwellC

@Savos_Saren
No, hell no!
Sorry but this class is a stand your ground class albeit standing on quick sand but nonetheless. If you wanna have mobility then go play a sorcerer or a nightblade or better yet a warden since they're pretty much a DK/templar mix with mobility of a sorcerer.

Major expedition in general should never have been apart of our classes make-up in the first place which is why I advocated for the change to chains to only offer minor breech/minor fracture,etc.

This change is only beneficial to PvP and geared towards a Mag DK and with that said... Mag DKs preform considerably good in PvP and next patch with 2h weapons counting as two sets, they'll now be able to preform less 1h/shield and up their damage through increased penetration when using a destro wep. You want Mag DKs who currently CC both soft/hard while block casting to now be even more difficult to escape from when met with those CC bombards?

Stam DK can get mobility from a dodge roll and I play my Stam DK the most and I will say that no we don't need a major expedition skill, that is the last thing we'd ever need but we actually need are stamina/physical damaging skills instead of mainly relying on weapon skills to do our damage in PvP.

Abysswarrior45

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Abysswarrior45 wrote: »

Mag dk is in a perfectly reasonable spot currently if they removed befoul, Zaan, and the *** tank meta. In fact, mag dk is in a better spot than stam dk on its own. The only way for stam dk to be remotely competitive is to run a heal debuff aids build with SnB or a dot build similar to what you see in dueling, but both of those limit a dks Xing potential since shields are immune to status effects like pen crit and defile and dots aren't exactly bursty in a 1vX. This is coming from someone who played both classes since launch. Buff stam dk, leave mag dk alone, balance the damn game ifs, ZOS.

I'm trying to figure out what your rant about buffing stamDKs has anything to do with moving expedition around. Perhaps you should make your own post and advocate for buffs?

Or you could read more closely and see that I said mag dk is in a good spot, lol? Oh no! He didn't agree with me so *** him amiright? L2P, mag dk is really strong right now.

Savos_Saren

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Savos_Saren
No, hell no!
Sorry but this class is a stand your ground class albeit standing on quick sand but nonetheless. If you wanna have mobility then go play a sorcerer or a nightblade or better yet a warden since they're pretty much a DK/templar mix with mobility of a sorcerer.

Major expedition in general should never have been apart of our classes make-up in the first place which is why I advocated for the change to chains to only offer minor breech/minor fracture,etc.

This change is only beneficial to PvP and geared towards a Mag DK and with that said... Mag DKs preform considerably good in PvP and next patch with 2h weapons counting as two sets, they'll now be able to preform less 1h/shield and up their damage through increased penetration when using a destro wep. You want Mag DKs who currently CC both soft/hard while block casting to now be even more difficult to escape from when met with those CC bombards?

Stam DK can get mobility from a dodge roll and I play my Stam DK the most and I will say that no we don't need a major expedition skill, that is the last thing we'd ever need but we actually need are stamina/physical damaging skills instead of mainly relying on weapon skills to do our damage in PvP.

@MaxwellC

The game has evolved from DKs being solely the arch-type of stand-your-ground games style. Every class can now tank, heal, and deal damage as their primary role. DKs, initially, were meant to be the main tanks... however, now we have healers and DPS. There is no need to limit ourselves to standing in one spot.

Here's the question: If Wardens are considered really good tanks... why do they benefit from having Major Expedition? Also, with your mentality- you're saying that other classes who have certain arch-typical roles shouldn't have assets that are conducive to other playstyles? Templars should only heal and not have DPS roles? If a templar is supposed to be the healer- why do they have an execute? Sorcs and NBs should only DPS and not be tanky or be able to act as healers? Why does a Nightblade have the ability to heal in groups?

StamSorcs and Wardens make pretty good tanky builds in PVP... should their expedition be removed?

Abysswarrior45

Savos_Saren wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Savos_Saren
No, hell no!
Sorry but this class is a stand your ground class albeit standing on quick sand but nonetheless. If you wanna have mobility then go play a sorcerer or a nightblade or better yet a warden since they're pretty much a DK/templar mix with mobility of a sorcerer.

Major expedition in general should never have been apart of our classes make-up in the first place which is why I advocated for the change to chains to only offer minor breech/minor fracture,etc.

This change is only beneficial to PvP and geared towards a Mag DK and with that said... Mag DKs preform considerably good in PvP and next patch with 2h weapons counting as two sets, they'll now be able to preform less 1h/shield and up their damage through increased penetration when using a destro wep. You want Mag DKs who currently CC both soft/hard while block casting to now be even more difficult to escape from when met with those CC bombards?

Stam DK can get mobility from a dodge roll and I play my Stam DK the most and I will say that no we don't need a major expedition skill, that is the last thing we'd ever need but we actually need are stamina/physical damaging skills instead of mainly relying on weapon skills to do our damage in PvP.

@MaxwellC

The game has evolved from DKs being solely the arch-type of stand-your-ground games style. Every class can now tank, heal, and deal damage as their primary role. DKs, initially, were meant to be the main tanks... however, now we have healers and DPS. There is no need to limit ourselves to standing in one spot.

Here's the question: If Wardens are considered really good tanks... why do they benefit from having Major Expedition? Also, with your mentality- you're saying that other classes who have certain arch-typical roles shouldn't have assets that are conducive to other playstyles? Templars should only heal and not have DPS roles? If a templar is supposed to be the healer- why do they have an execute? Sorcs and NBs should only DPS and not be tanky or be able to act as healers? Why does a Nightblade have the ability to heal in groups?

StamSorcs and Wardens make pretty good tanky builds in PVP... should their expedition be removed?

Why advocate to homogenize every class though? Why no ask for dk identity back and limit which roles a class can perform best?

Vesper_BR

The best option IMHO is to move expedition to wings and SNARE REMOVAL to spiked armor.
Make volatile armor reflect some amount of damage back, maybe like 10%.

Stand your ground > spiked + reflective scales
Dragon Mobility > hardened armor + ref.v plate

Vesper_BR

Never seen a dragon slow like a turtle... This game design is strange....

Stupid concepts like that make me drop the game for others... Played dks since the launch, got 5 stars and alot of achievements on it and rarely my char felt like I think it should...

Savos_Saren

Abysswarrior45 wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Savos_Saren
No, hell no!
Sorry but this class is a stand your ground class albeit standing on quick sand but nonetheless. If you wanna have mobility then go play a sorcerer or a nightblade or better yet a warden since they're pretty much a DK/templar mix with mobility of a sorcerer.

Major expedition in general should never have been apart of our classes make-up in the first place which is why I advocated for the change to chains to only offer minor breech/minor fracture,etc.

This change is only beneficial to PvP and geared towards a Mag DK and with that said... Mag DKs preform considerably good in PvP and next patch with 2h weapons counting as two sets, they'll now be able to preform less 1h/shield and up their damage through increased penetration when using a destro wep. You want Mag DKs who currently CC both soft/hard while block casting to now be even more difficult to escape from when met with those CC bombards?

Stam DK can get mobility from a dodge roll and I play my Stam DK the most and I will say that no we don't need a major expedition skill, that is the last thing we'd ever need but we actually need are stamina/physical damaging skills instead of mainly relying on weapon skills to do our damage in PvP.

@MaxwellC

The game has evolved from DKs being solely the arch-type of stand-your-ground games style. Every class can now tank, heal, and deal damage as their primary role. DKs, initially, were meant to be the main tanks... however, now we have healers and DPS. There is no need to limit ourselves to standing in one spot.

Here's the question: If Wardens are considered really good tanks... why do they benefit from having Major Expedition? Also, with your mentality- you're saying that other classes who have certain arch-typical roles shouldn't have assets that are conducive to other playstyles? Templars should only heal and not have DPS roles? If a templar is supposed to be the healer- why do they have an execute? Sorcs and NBs should only DPS and not be tanky or be able to act as healers? Why does a Nightblade have the ability to heal in groups?

StamSorcs and Wardens make pretty good tanky builds in PVP... should their expedition be removed?

Why advocate to homogenize every class though? Why no ask for dk identity back and limit which roles a class can perform best?

So, you think that moving Major Expedition (something that we already have) from Chains to Spiked Armor makes DKs lose their identity? That's like saying: "Don't part your hair a different way... you might not be the same person afterward."

Savos_Saren

Vesper_BR wrote: »

Never seen a dragon slow like a turtle... This game design is strange....

Stupid concepts like that make me drop the game for others... Played dks since the launch, got 5 stars and alot of achievements on it and rarely my char felt like I think it should...

True. And why is it that the one class that involves Ice Tanking also has Major Expedition on it? I've never seen fast icebergs.

MaxwellC

@Savos_Saren
Okay why are you trying to conflate my argument?

First of all any class can build to be a "really good tank" but some classes are innately meant to play the role i.e Dragon Knights as we gain resources through ultimate and ultimate is built from being in combat, dealing damage, receiving, damage, etc.

My argument is based around the sole fact that our class is meant to stands its ground and fight, not the class that runs away while having Major resolve, major ward, and with your crazy/flawed idea, major expedition.

Why does a class need to have a built in buff for major expedition when you can get that from other sources in the game i.e potions, skills, dodge rolling, sets,etc. You try to strawman man me by throwing in templars should be meant to be healers then why have an execute nonsense when this is solely about the class and an execute isn't a buff mate it's an ability that finishes off a near death opponent.

So I will say this again but differently; Instead of trying to give DKs (the only class I play) a unnecessary buff, how about we fix some skill costs, introduce new stamina skills, and rework our passives. You talk about our class no longer being able to stand our ground and as I pointed out, we currently stand in quick sand but that doesn't mean now we need major expedition.
Like I said if you wanna play a class that can be mobile and is similar to the DK... well go play a warden but don't try to bring that nonsense to the table.

Vesper_BR

This idea of stand our ground is failed... With the introduction of wardens, we lose that...

In fact our class were split in two...
Standing should be wardens role...
Dks are dragons, we are supposed to fly over and destroy enemies, be offensive...
I hate this old trash concept of stand our ground... Someone must have said it once, and people take it like set in stone.

But as always, it is just MY opinion.