Any plans on buffing Master/Maelstrom/Asylum weapons, come Summerset?

Nyladreas

So since we're getting 2 handers that count as 2 pieces of a set with the release of Summerset, are there any plans on buffing the End-Game Weapons people have been using instead of another 5 piece set bonus so far?

Seems kind of unfair and kind of a slap across the face to people who have gone through blood, sweat and tears to get those. I myself got my master weapon through an experienced carry in 1 night, not going to lie, but there are people who have spent weeks and weeks if not months going through vDSA, vMA, even Asylum If we're talking veteran here.

This really needs some attention! @ZOS_GinaBruno (Don't know who else to tag, some suggestions would be welcome)

Nelson_Rebel

Those weapons will still add more damage than the 5th piece bonus set


The only difference is it closes the gap
between those who are able to complete vMA and vDSA so they aren't completely irrelevant in PvE endgame just because they dont have weeks and months to run one instance RNG based content


Those weapons will still be BiS for Stam easily that bow is like 10k of their DPS alone

Staves to, to a lesser extent.


All this is doing is making it less elitist based where 99% of the population is shunned from being invited if they don't have the weapon

Dracane

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Those weapons will still add more damage than the 5th piece bonus set


The only difference is it closes the gap
between those who are able to complete vMA and vDSA so they aren't completely irrelevant in PvE endgame just because they dont have weeks and months to run one instance RNG based content


Those weapons will still be BiS for Stam easily that bow is like 10k of their DPS alone

Staves to, to a lesser extent.


All this is doing is making it less elitist based where 99% of the population is shunned from being invited if they don't have the weapon

I think you're missing the point entirely. I've said it several times over the past few days.
You can still have the vMA and bows on your back bar. Everyone can have them there. But all main bar weapons will become underpowered now, period.

Master,Maelstrom and Asylum weapons are no longer valid main bar choices if you could have a stronger 4th and 5th set piece on that bar instead. It doesn't matter if you loose those pieces on your backbar, as you only spend short moment on there to recast some things, a utility bar so to speak. But your main bar is what really matters.

Nelson_Rebel

Dracane wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Those weapons will still add more damage than the 5th piece bonus set


The only difference is it closes the gap
between those who are able to complete vMA and vDSA so they aren't completely irrelevant in PvE endgame just because they dont have weeks and months to run one instance RNG based content


Those weapons will still be BiS for Stam easily that bow is like 10k of their DPS alone

Staves to, to a lesser extent.


All this is doing is making it less elitist based where 99% of the population is shunned from being invited if they don't have the weapon

I think you're missing the point entirely. I've said it several times over the past few days.
You can still have the vMA and bows on your back bar. Everyone can have them there. But all main bar weapons will become underpowered now, period.

Master,Maelstrom and Asylum weapons are no longer valid main bar choices if you could have a stronger 4th and 5th set piece on that bar instead. It doesn't matter if you loose those pieces on your backbar, as you only spend short moment on there to recast some things, a utility bar so to speak. But your main bar is what really matters.

For magic users?


This remains to be seen. I know backbar for vMA lightning staves and Masters Resto staff will not be thrown to the wind.


The reason being is that now that Light attack and Heavy attacks scalling will make the vMA increase to light and heavy attacks even greater.

The Masters resto staff will still be an invaluable tool for stam return.

I don't think ZoS ever intended for these weapons to be the best choice for both Front bar and Back bar weaponry unless you had a specific build to make it BiS for your intended purpose.


In my opinion we can't ask for any buffs to them without seeing what the actual ingame parses show for the two different setups

If the disparity makes special dropped weapons to weak, then yes.

If all it does is make the gap smaller, then no. No buffs

Dracane

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Those weapons will still add more damage than the 5th piece bonus set


The only difference is it closes the gap
between those who are able to complete vMA and vDSA so they aren't completely irrelevant in PvE endgame just because they dont have weeks and months to run one instance RNG based content


Those weapons will still be BiS for Stam easily that bow is like 10k of their DPS alone

Staves to, to a lesser extent.


All this is doing is making it less elitist based where 99% of the population is shunned from being invited if they don't have the weapon

I think you're missing the point entirely. I've said it several times over the past few days.
You can still have the vMA and bows on your back bar. Everyone can have them there. But all main bar weapons will become underpowered now, period.

Master,Maelstrom and Asylum weapons are no longer valid main bar choices if you could have a stronger 4th and 5th set piece on that bar instead. It doesn't matter if you loose those pieces on your backbar, as you only spend short moment on there to recast some things, a utility bar so to speak. But your main bar is what really matters.

For magic users?


This remains to be seen. I know backbar for vMA lightning staves and Masters Resto staff will not be thrown to the wind.


The reason being is that now that Light attack and Heavy attacks scalling will make the vMA increase to light and heavy attacks even greater.

The Masters resto staff will still be an invaluable tool for stam return.

I don't think ZoS ever intended for these weapons to be the best choice for both Front bar and Back bar weaponry unless you had a specific build to
make it BiS for your intended purpose.


In my opinion we can't ask for any buffs to them without seeing what the actual ingame parses show for the two different setups

If the disparity makes special dropped weapons to weak, then yes.

If all it does is make the gap smaller, then no. No buffs

Of course. They are locked behind the hardest challenges as RNG rewards Of course they are supposed to be the best.
Right now they are good, because they offer decent to good effects as 1 piece. But when every weapons offers 2 pieces per weapon instead of 1, then this is no longer the case.

And you are confusing me big times. You basically agreed with me, yet make it look like disagreement.
Didn't I say, that backbar weapons such as the masters bow and vMA staves are and will remain back bar weapons ?

Nelson_Rebel

Dracane wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Those weapons will still add more damage than the 5th piece bonus set


The only difference is it closes the gap
between those who are able to complete vMA and vDSA so they aren't completely irrelevant in PvE endgame just because they dont have weeks and months to run one instance RNG based content


Those weapons will still be BiS for Stam easily that bow is like 10k of their DPS alone

Staves to, to a lesser extent.


All this is doing is making it less elitist based where 99% of the population is shunned from being invited if they don't have the weapon

I think you're missing the point entirely. I've said it several times over the past few days.
You can still have the vMA and bows on your back bar. Everyone can have them there. But all main bar weapons will become underpowered now, period.

Master,Maelstrom and Asylum weapons are no longer valid main bar choices if you could have a stronger 4th and 5th set piece on that bar instead. It doesn't matter if you loose those pieces on your backbar, as you only spend short moment on there to recast some things, a utility bar so to speak. But your main bar is what really matters.

For magic users?


This remains to be seen. I know backbar for vMA lightning staves and Masters Resto staff will not be thrown to the wind.


The reason being is that now that Light attack and Heavy attacks scalling will make the vMA increase to light and heavy attacks even greater.

The Masters resto staff will still be an invaluable tool for stam return.

I don't think ZoS ever intended for these weapons to be the best choice for both Front bar and Back bar weaponry unless you had a specific build to
make it BiS for your intended purpose.


In my opinion we can't ask for any buffs to them without seeing what the actual ingame parses show for the two different setups

If the disparity makes special dropped weapons to weak, then yes.

If all it does is make the gap smaller, then no. No buffs

Of course. They are locked behind the hardest challenges as RNG rewards Of course they are supposed to be the best.
Right now they are good, because they offer decent to good effects as 1 piece. But when every weapons offers 2 pieces per weapon instead of 1, then this is no longer the case.

And you are confusing me big times. You basically agreed with me, yet make it look like disagreement.
Didn't I say, that backbar weapons such as the masters bow and vMA staves are and will remain back bar weapons ?

I did not disagree with you or agree with you. I'm giving you a different perspective that seems to
be eluding you.

They HAVE been the best for every setup for years now. And they most likely will still be. All I'm saying is that ZoS is likely not making them the Best for Both bars. These changes indicate they want players to have relevance with a mix of options.

Or ,at the very least, these weapons WILL still be the best option, but the difference between using them and using a crafted set will be LESS than it used to be.


Which is not a bad thing at all, it just means more people will be able to join content with comparable damage. Just not 15k parses behind anymore.


I dont see your issue with this.


Which is why we need actual DPS numbers before asking to buff the strongest weapons ingame by more than they already are

WrathOfInnos

Yea, everyone will still use VMA bow or staff back bar. I think the OP's point is that things like Master Destro, Master Bow, Master Daggers, Master Resto, Asylum Destro, Asylum Resto will underperform compared to 5-5-2.

Using the Master Bow for example, nobody will take its bonus (300 weapon damage against a single target while poison injection is active) over a 5th piece of Hundings (300 weapon damage all the time to every target).

If they were to bring back the old stat bonuses to these weapons as a "1 piece" bonus then they would stay a viable option when compared to completing a 2 or 5 piece set.

Personally I have enjoyed the Master Destro since its last buff, it is very balanced against an Imperfect Asylum Staff or a 4th piece Moondancer Staff. With the change to Staves counting as 2 set bonuses, the 4th and 5th Moondancer bonuses will far exceed the benefit of either weapon (Master or Asylum). If the Master also gave 1k Max Magicka, and the Asylum gave 129 spell damage, then they would remain viable options.

Overall I really like the changes to set bonuses, but I would like to see some of the unique weapon sets remain useful. I'm not even sure a Perfected Inferno will be the best option next patch in its current form, and given the difficulty to obtain one it really should be.

Nelson_Rebel

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Yea, everyone will still use VMA bow or staff back bar. I think the OP's point is that things like Master Destro, Master Bow, Master Daggers, Master Resto, Asylum Destro, Asylum Resto will underperform compared to 5-5-2.

Using the Master Bow for example, nobody will take its bonus (300 weapon damage against a single target while poison injection is active) over a 5th piece of Hundings (300 weapon damage all the time to every target).

If they were to bring back the old stat bonuses to these weapons as a "1 piece" bonus then they would stay a viable option when compared to completing a 2 or 5 piece set.

Personally I have enjoyed the Master Destro since its last buff, it is very balanced against an Imperfect Asylum Staff or a 4th piece Moondancer Staff. With the change to Staves counting as 2 set bonuses, the 4th and 5th Moondancer bonuses will far exceed the benefit of either weapon (Master or Asylum). If the Master also gave 1k Max Magicka, and the Asylum gave 129 spell damage, then they would remain viable options.

Overall I really like the changes to set bonuses, but I would like to see some of the unique weapon sets remain useful. I'm not even sure a Perfected Inferno will be the best option next patch in its current form, and given the difficulty to obtain one it really should be.

I dont disagree that they should be better options for the meta builds.


But as long as they still bring higher DPS numbers by even 3-5k It will even out the massive difference from those who can and can't complete those content.

As someone who has completed this content, I am more than Okay with having more people who can catch up to my Stam Dk levels of DPS.


Right now, we have zero evidence that 5/5/2 setups will be better than the Special Weapons drops.

I dont think the damage will be lower using a vMA flame staff. I DO think the difference will be LESS though. Which i am okay with.

WrathOfInnos

I'm not concerned about VMA inferno. That is a back bar weapon, and will remain useful. The same goes for VMA bow and even VMA resto. All of these buff skills that are effective over time.

It's the front bar weapon sets that affect spammables that are at risk of becoming obsolete.

The most common setups for staff users right now are 5-4-2, 5-3-2-1, and 5-5-1 (2 variants).

5-4-2 uses a Monster helm set and a 4-piece slayer set. The set buff turns this into a 5-5-2 setup.

5-3-2-1 uses a Monster set (2) and a weapon set (1) with a slayer set or willpower (3). The set buff does not affect this setup at all, it remains 5-3-2-1.

5-5-1 uses a one-piece Monster helm or a one-piece weapon set. If it uses a Monster helm then the set buff makes it 5-5-2. If it uses a weapon set it remains 5-5-1.

All of these options are currently quite well balanced, and perform very similar. This is why we have great build diversity at the moment (all of these are commonly seen). The upcoming set buff is a massive increase in effectiveness for 2 of the 4 scenarios above (anything 1 piece away from completing a set), and does literally nothing for the other 2 (anything using a weapon set front bar).

Simply adding back bonuses to Master and Maelstrom weapons like what existed in the past would solve this immediately. They were removed for good reason (balance at the time) and could be added back for the same reason (balance in the future). Asylum weapons would obviously need the same treatment.

joaaocaampos

joaaocaampos wrote: »

In my opinion,

Special Weapons = Full Monster Set (Head + Shoulders).

So yes, please reconsider!

I'd like a pattern. There is no such thing as "one weapon gives weapon damage, the other gives max stamina". Or all weapons give weapon damage, or all give max stamina. Obviously, I'm talking about Dual Wield, Bow etc.

The best bonus is: Weapon Damage, Spell Damage, Physical and Spell Resistance!

Weapon Damage

• Two-Handed
• Dual Wield
• Bow

Spell Damage

• Destruction Staff
• Restoration Staff

Physical and Spell Resistance

• One-Handed and Shield

Checkmath

there will not be any additional bonus to master, msa or AS two handed weapons, no additional ressources are damage. this makes msa bows and staves still viable as a backbar weapon, but AS staves and master staves frontbar will be less popular. this reinforces most setups to have msa bows or staves backbar for the huge buff to light attacks or the bow aoe dot.
all dd's run a full 5 piece atm, but different additional setups beside of that. the changes to two handed weapons will make sets popular that dont have to be active the whole time. so i imagine that for magicka setups some 5 piece boni only will be frontbarred. this surely will be the case for sets like moondancer or burning spellweave, both with actual procs. also the HoF sets like master achitect and war machine will be very popular as a full set on the frontbar, so they can provide the major slayer buff. and for crafted set we will see also a lot of people to get mechnical acuity on the frontbar, while having a full monsterset, a full 5 piece set and a msa bow or staff on the backbar.

Nelson_Rebel

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I'm not concerned about VMA inferno. That is a back bar weapon, and will remain useful. The same goes for VMA bow and even VMA resto. All of these buff skills that are effective over time.

It's the front bar weapon sets that affect spammables that are at risk of becoming obsolete.

The most common setups for staff users right now are 5-4-2, 5-3-2-1, and 5-5-1 (2 variants).

5-4-2 uses a Monster helm set and a 4-piece slayer set. The set buff turns this into a 5-5-2 setup.

5-3-2-1 uses a Monster set (2) and a weapon set (1) with a slayer set or willpower (3). The set buff does not affect this setup at all, it remains 5-3-2-1.

5-5-1 uses a one-piece Monster helm or a one-piece weapon set. If it uses a Monster helm then the set buff makes it 5-5-2. If it uses a weapon set it remains 5-5-1.

All of these options are currently quite well balanced, and perform very similar. This is why we have great build diversity at the moment (all of these are commonly seen). The upcoming set buff is a massive increase in effectiveness for 2 of the 4 scenarios above (anything 1 piece away from completing a set), and does literally nothing for the other 2 (anything using a weapon set front bar).

Simply adding back bonuses to Master and Maelstrom weapons like what existed in the past would solve this immediately. They were removed for good reason (balance at the time) and could be added back for the same reason (balance in the future). Asylum weapons would obviously need the same treatment.

They could use a SLIGHT buff IF the dps parses support these claims.

I do not think however, that making these special weapons drops 15k parses above everyone else is the way to go.

We have all seen the effects of that on all trial group compositions and an ever expanding "elitism" attitude where you have to run these weapons or you stand no chance being accepted into even just completion Veteran Trial groups. More viable diverse builds is what is needed to make the gap closer. "raising the floor, lowering the ceiling"


The ceiling (special weapons) will still be there. All this change will do is make it so less skillful players aren't eternally punished forever in the game. To many fun players who I enjoyed playing with left the game because of constant nerfs and the ever rising elitist dropped weapons builds that were WAY beyond normal means of gear.

The special gear will still be better for Timed trials and hardmodes. But for completion veteran content the difference will be less and accept a wider variety of players. This is a GOOD thing, damage is going UP for everyone


I'd reserve any buff/nerf threads or calls until then though when we get to see hands on how effective these combinations will be in conjuction with the new jewelry traits.

Aztlan

In PvP, Master's weapons, particularly the bow, will disappear without a buff. It's a shame, because some people have worked hard to get them.

VoidBiscuit

Add weapon damage back I think, the weapons are harder to get and as such should have a little edge to them. It's understandable, yes they will do extra damage, but that's kinda the point. "Oh yeah, I farmed Maelstrom for a weapon that does less damage than one I can get from a guild store".

I emphasise "little edge" though. Being stupidly overpowered and making them a requirement shouldn't be the case. Perhaps same difference as between Asylum and Asylum perfected where there's a difference but it won't break your build if you don't have it.

Bigevilpeter

Enchanting them + the weapom damage would be totally broken, its either one or the other. I think enchanting them makes them stronger anyways than they were before

Nyladreas

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Enchanting them + the weapom damage would be totally broken, its either one or the other. I think enchanting them makes them stronger anyways than they were before

How? You can wear a full monster set now with far better effects + still have an enchanted weapon.

lassitershawn

Strongly agree that they (especially vAS staves) need a buff if they turn out not to be BiS frontbar. They take a lot more effort than just crafting acuity lol.

Nelson_Rebel

lassitershawn wrote: »

Strongly agree that they (especially vAS staves) need a buff if they turn out not to be BiS frontbar. They take a lot more effort than just crafting acuity lol.

Or maybe they should only be BiS for builds that center around their effects

Not BiS for every single build in the game with no diversity in pvp or pve.

Thats the whole point of them making more viable builds with 2h as 2 pieces and jewelry crafting for craftable sets.

They obviously want to bring dps up for the peasant players, so excuse them.

These weapons will almost certainly still be BiS if you center your build around their affects. You dont just get the weapon and suddenly be god mode overlord over everyone else.

Thats the kind of thinking that destroyed the trials scene into handfuls of guilds instead of the dozens with people actually ENJOYING playing the game. Shocker right, people actually enjoying a game instead of dark souls online

Toc de Malsvi

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

Strongly agree that they (especially vAS staves) need a buff if they turn out not to be BiS frontbar. They take a lot more effort than just crafting acuity lol.

Or maybe they should only be BiS for builds that center around their effects

Not BiS for every single build in the game with no diversity in pvp or pve.

Thats the whole point of them making more viable builds with 2h as 2 pieces and jewelry crafting for craftable sets.

They obviously want to bring dps up for the peasant players, so excuse them.

These weapons will almost certainly still be BiS if you center your build around their affects. You dont just get the weapon and suddenly be god mode overlord over everyone else.

Thats the kind of thinking that destroyed the trials scene into handfuls of guilds instead of the dozens with people actually ENJOYING playing the game. Shocker right, people actually enjoying a game instead of dark souls online

Well for many situations the VDSA/Asylum/VMA weapons wont be BiS for any setup. This I believe is the concern. Buffing these weapons wont negate the gain from being able to have an additional 4 and 5 piece.

Currently you cannot have an additional 4 and 5 piece with a 2H/Bow/Staff even without these weapons. So its not hurt that they are hands down better, there is little alternative. If buffed with the addition of 4 and 5 set options they still may remain BiS while those that do not have them will gain some ground from being able to run 5/5/2.

lassitershawn

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

Strongly agree that they (especially vAS staves) need a buff if they turn out not to be BiS frontbar. They take a lot more effort than just crafting acuity lol.

Or maybe they should only be BiS for builds that center around their effects

Not BiS for every single build in the game with no diversity in pvp or pve.

Thats the whole point of them making more viable builds with 2h as 2 pieces and jewelry crafting for craftable sets.

They obviously want to bring dps up for the peasant players, so excuse them.

These weapons will almost certainly still be BiS if you center your build around their affects. You dont just get the weapon and suddenly be god mode overlord over everyone else.

Thats the kind of thinking that destroyed the trials scene into handfuls of guilds instead of the dozens with people actually ENJOYING playing the game. Shocker right, people actually enjoying a game instead of dark souls online

First, I'm not sure what you mean about "centering around their effects" beyond merely running the skill the weapon effect buffs. If that's what you mean, I agree. Any build using endless hail, blockade, or FP should have these weapons be BiS :P

Second, vMA bows and staves will almost certainly remain BiS for backbar, so nothing changes there. Other special weapons are not BiS for every single build in the game, but it looks like they may end up being BiS for NO builds in the game. NBs for example usually don't use a perfected asylum inferno because they tend to use funnel > FP (and magblades are a large part of the PvE community). Master and asylum staves are good in PvP but you have a choice between them and there are certainly builds that don't use either. Master bows and vMA 2h are also good in PvP but again are not BiS for every build. The VAST majority of special weapons are completely useless ALREADY.

Third, the DPS difference isn't as big as you assume. You talk about a 15k DPS difference earlier in the thread. COMPLETE BS. The difference between a DPS with no vMA staff and an imperfect asylum staff is at most a couple k, nowhere NEAR 15k. If two players have otherwise identical builds, races, CP, etc with the exception of a vMA staff and imperfect asylum vs perfect asylum (anyone can get imperfect asylum) and there is a 15k DPS difference, that is a skill issue.

These weapons did not destroy the trial scene. If you aren't good enough to beat vMA you probably aren't good enough to beat vHoF or vAS +2 anyways (or you are a carry). I'm 100% sure you will be allowed in vAS progressions without perfect asylum weapons as well (obviously, because you can't get them without beating it). If you only heal or tank, the weapons aren't useful so it is a nonissue (possible exception of Master Resto but that is far from make or break nor even always BiS and vDSA weapons are the easiest of the three special weapons to get).

These weapons (especially vAS weapons) take a lot of effort to get, and should remain BiS for builds using the skill the weapon buffs.

luen79rwb17_ESO

They need to bring back the old bonus stats they had. Technically the staves (and 2hander weapons in general) are 2 pieces now so it doesnt make sense that they have only one bonus. Gotta keep it consistent IMO.

Morgul667

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

They need to bring back the old bonus stats they had. Technically the staves (and 2hander weapons in general) are 2 pieces now so it doesnt make sense that they have only one bonus. Gotta keep it consistent IMO.

Pretty much this

Joshlenoir

@Nelson_Rebel
kind of sounds like you don't think the hardest content in the game should be rewarded by the best weapons.
The whole point of these weapons is to reward the grind it took to get them. I've ran VMA over 100 times on one character and if not for trait changing, still wouldn't have the weapon+trait I needed.
The people that aren't good enough to get the top tier gear to join the top tier PvE guilds can still join other guilds who aren't that hardcore to attempt trials.
Multiple people have laid out to you how the vast majority of unique PvE end game weapons will become obsolete with summerset yet you're saying this is okay because "the noobs need to catch up". Bad players with good weapons are still bad players and won't parse insanely high. Nobody is asking for "dark souls online" but I'll be damned if you think the people that spend 10's of hours doing the content ZoS put in the game shouldn't be rewarded for it.
If the "peasant" players can't perform then they should learn Or be taught, making the majority of end game unique weapons obsolete since 90% of them are weaker than 5 piece bonuses isn't a solution. I know you think everyone deserves a trophy but that waters down the game and removes any sense of accomplishment from difficult content.

schwarzman1

I hope they add a two piece bonus.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Awe, my poor AS greatsword. Back to loch with ya!