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[Summerset] Behold the latest buff to Xv1 zerging: Silver Leash

TheYKcid
TheYKcid
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[EDIT] Latest details from the PTS:
  • The pull does NOT require a double cast—players are automatically pulled when hit
  • Targets that are pulled are not granted CC immunity (although this is likely a bug and will be patched)
Fighters Guild
  • Silver Leash (Silver Bolt morph): This ability will now fire a bolt that, upon hitting and damaging an enemy, will instantly pull them toward you and apply a snare on them.

Source (CC-immunity bug): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/408257/silver-leash-changes
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Original post below:
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As listed on Alcast's website (he was one of the Summerset playtesters who was recently at ZOS HQ):
Silver Leash
  • This now pulls targets to you (Like Chains do), still costs Stamina.

Basically, every single player in a zerg will now have the ability to completely nullify one of the most important tools when fighting outnumbered—positioning—pulling hapless solo players to an inevitable death at the hands of the 23 other group members huddled around them.

Sure, it takes-up a spot on their bars that could be used for another important skill... but as with all things zergy, any deficiencies in the individual's build gets compensated for by the multitude of allies around them. It disproportionately benefits the zerg playstyle.

I can understand this change in the PvE context—making non-DK tanks more competitive by giving them an alternative to chains (although this also increases homogeneity, so whether it's a net-positive change is undecided).

But it seems a really poorly though-out decision concerning PvP balance. Perhaps make it only work on NPCs, please?

...

P.S.
It's been mentioned in the comments that DK chains currently fulfill this function. I believe everyone here is well aware of that fact, and that the nature of this problem is one of scale. When you take a skill from one class (that is under-represented in large scale PvP) and make it accessible to every snipe-spamming Nightblade and block-casting healbot in Cyrodiil, you are ostensibly going to see a substantial rise in its prevalence. Don't be disingenuous.
Edited by TheYKcid on April 20, 2018 9:26PM
PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
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Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden
  • Turelus
    Turelus
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    Block?
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
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    Turelus wrote: »
    Block?

    Snare myself by 50% while trying to outrun a zerg. Gotcha.
    Edited by TheYKcid on April 3, 2018 6:17PM
    PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
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    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden
  • DeadlyRecluse
    DeadlyRecluse
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    I'm assuming it doesn't pull you if you have CC immunity or if you block it. Not a huge issue.

    It had a pull on it before and we didn't see it frequently spammed from the safety of zergs--I doubt it will be a huge issue now.
    Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub
  • Lynx7386
    Lynx7386
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    The big question is: does it still have to be double cast to pull?
    PS4 / NA
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  • Sordidfairytale
    Sordidfairytale
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    Seems strange that no DK had thought to use chains for this same tactic previously.
    The Vegemite Knight

    "if the skeleton kills you, your dps is too low." ~STEVIL

    The Elder World of WarScrollCraft Online ~joaaocaampos
  • Celestro
    Celestro
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    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    The big question is: does it still have to be double cast to pull?

    This x1000.
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
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    It had a pull on it before and we didn't see it frequently spammed from the safety of zergs--I doubt it will be a huge issue now.

    That's because a pull (or any gap closer, really) takes you out of your group and into the target's territory—along with all the inherent risks involved. It's fundamentally different from pulling a single player INTO your group.

    Also because a gap-closer does the same thing and doesn't require a double cast.
    Edited by TheYKcid on April 3, 2018 6:24PM
    PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
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  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
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    Seems strange that no DK had thought to use chains for this same tactic previously.

    Tolerable when restricted to 1 out of the 5 classes. When available to everyone regardless of class spec? Probably not so much.
    PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
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  • DeadlyRecluse
    DeadlyRecluse
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    TheYKcid wrote: »
    I'm assuming it doesn't pull you if you have CC immunity or if you block it. Not a huge issue.

    It had a pull on it before and we didn't see it frequently spammed from the safety of zergs--I doubt it will be a huge issue now.

    That's because a pull (or any gap closer, really) takes you out of your group and into the target's territory—along with all the inherent risks involved. It's fundamentally different from pulling a single player INTO your group.

    right--silver leash at one time DID function that way: it pulled players into the group. Then it was changed to be a wonky gap closer. Now it's going back to a pull.

    Will it be as obnoxious as being chained into a zerg? Sure. Will zergs start running 5x leash spammers pulling people into a stationary blender? Doubtful.
    Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub
  • Turelus
    Turelus
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    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Turelus wrote: »
    Block?

    Snare myself by 50% while trying to outrun a zerg. Gotcha.
    Roll Dodge?
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • jypcy
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    @DeadlyRecluse is referring to a number of patches ago back when it used to pull enemies to you instead of you to enemies. They changed it to what you know it as now, and if Alcast is correct, it’s simply being reverted back to its original iteration. I haven’t seen it mentioned in any other playtester’s notes, though, and one of the other playtesters thought Alcast may have mistakenly put it in (that it was a suggestion from a playtester to revert its design, not an actual change planned for Summerset as of pre-PTS). Either way, sounds like when it used to be a pull instead of a gap closer it wasn’t abused for this purpose so idk if there’s any reason to be worried about it now.

    Unless people make threads suggesting it in General :trollface:
  • TheYKcid
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    Turelus wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Turelus wrote: »
    Block?

    Snare myself by 50% while trying to outrun a zerg. Gotcha.
    Roll Dodge?
    • Consecutively roll-dodging Mag toon with a 15k stamina pool
    • Zerg

    Who runs out of stamina first?
    PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
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  • xaraan
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    Well, if you are fighting a big group, they always have a cheesy DK doing nothing but trying to pull you in anyway. Who cares if it's another class doing it instead of a DK. Same problem, same 'solutions'.
    -- @xaraan --
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  • Olupajmibanan
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    Play BGs? Cyrodiil is piece of crap anyways, waaay different than it was advertised at start.
  • Yolokin_Swagonborn
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    Does it pull you in mist form like chains sometimes does?


    They really need to fix mist before making more zerg CC tools.



    Also (from alcasts website)
    Undo
    When activated, you will regain your resources that you had 4 seconds ago. One of the morph also makes it possible to activate it while you are stunned.


    I call BS, in PvP you can't even break free sometimes when you are stunned. No way this doesnt break or break something.
    Edited by Yolokin_Swagonborn on April 3, 2018 6:52PM
  • Sordidfairytale
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    Does it pull you in mist form like chains sometimes does?


    They really need to fix mist before making more zerg CC tools.

    Is it chains pulling you in? Or is it Swarm Mothers? Because Swarm Mothers will work on you in mist if you had a DOT on the wearer.
    xaraan wrote: »
    Well, if you are fighting a big group, they always have a cheesy DK doing nothing but trying to pull you in anyway. Who cares if it's another class doing it instead of a DK. Same problem, same 'solutions'.

    Agreed.


    The Vegemite Knight

    "if the skeleton kills you, your dps is too low." ~STEVIL

    The Elder World of WarScrollCraft Online ~joaaocaampos
  • pmn100b16_ESO
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    On the flip side, characters other than DKs now have the ability to pull players out of ball groups.
  • MaxwellC
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    I found it funny that again we giving away DK class abilities and ruining the uniqueness of said class. First we give our Flames of Oblivion to Sorcerers because Obviously they were meant to stand their ground and not our class.
    Then we lost our original wings so it could be a stupid ultimate for every class.
    Next we give our chain skill to every other class because they need to stand their ground too. While they're at it they might as well give our molten armaments to a nightblade.
    不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
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  • Aliyavana
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    Simply disable the function on pvp so that pvpers wont get something meant to even the playing field for pve tanks nerfed
    Edited by Aliyavana on April 3, 2018 7:39PM
  • ArchMikem
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    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Turelus wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Turelus wrote: »
    Block?

    Snare myself by 50% while trying to outrun a zerg. Gotcha.
    Roll Dodge?
    • Consecutively roll-dodging Mag toon with a 15k stamina pool
    • Zerg

    Who runs out of stamina first?

    My Sorc only has 10k Stam. I can roll dodge twice at most before it's all gone.
    CP1,900+ Master Explorer - AvA One Star General - Console Peasant - The Clan
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  • Rex-Umbra
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    good change for tanks
    Xbox GT: Rex Umbrah
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  • Priyasekarssk
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    ArchMikem wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Turelus wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Turelus wrote: »
    Block?

    Snare myself by 50% while trying to outrun a zerg. Gotcha.
    Roll Dodge?
    • Consecutively roll-dodging Mag toon with a 15k stamina pool
    • Zerg

    Who runs out of stamina first?

    My Sorc only has 10k Stam. I can roll dodge twice at most before it's all gone.

    10K stamina? Cool. I am a Stamina NBS will inject stamina poison with bow in stealth. Put double CCs. You cannot break free nor roll dodge. Then I will practice 100 ways for killing a magic sorc. 15K stamina is must . Otherwise you wont survive.
    Edited by Priyasekarssk on April 3, 2018 8:14PM
  • TheYKcid
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    To the people opposed to my suggestion, can you convey what exactly your disagreement is? Because all I'm asking is that we:

    • Retain the change for PvE (which benefits diversity in tanking)
    • Maintain the status quo in PvP (as some have pointed out, DKs can already do this job fine)

    So, what exactly is so problematic about making this change restricted to PvE?
    Or, to put it another way, why do you feel we should be giving DK chains to every class in PvP?
    Edited by TheYKcid on April 3, 2018 8:24PM
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  • Mazbt
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    It's also a tool to help solos isolate and pull out people from a ball zerg....seen my own groups get messed up by dk chains and warden teleport.
    Mazari the Resurrected (AD)- PVP stamplar main
    Maz the Druid - PVP group stam warden
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  • jypcy
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    @TheYKcid haha I will continue to encourage skepticism on this change even being real. I’ve said it in other threads, but afaik Alcast is the only playtester who’s mentioned this being a change, and Starkerealm (sp?) said he might have mistakenly included that as a planned change instead of a playtester’s suggestion. As far as if it does get reverted to its original iteration, well that’s just that: it’s a reversion. I don’t believe it was broken/abused when it used to work this way, so I don’t think it will be now, so the complaint is moot. That said, if they made a pvp alteration to it like there are for some skills/sets, such as on a second cast it stuns/roots players instead of pulling them, whereas in pve a second cast it pulls enemies, I’d be fine with that.

    Tldr: IF this is actually a planned change, I really don’t see how it opens any new avenues for mechanics abuse. If pvpers need it to have a separate effect on players, that seems unnecessary but fair.
    Edited by jypcy on April 3, 2018 8:38PM
  • casparian
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    Before we all leap to conclusions, can anyone confirm that this change is actually being planned? I know Alcast listed it on his website, but AFAIK no one else who has played Summerset has mentioned this change, and others have said that this was merely a player suggestion that Alcast accidentally got mixed up in his change notes.
    7-day PVP campaign regular 2016-2019, Flawless Conqueror. MagDK/stamplar/stamwarden/mageblade. Requiem, Legend, Knights of Daggerfall. Currently retired from the wars; waiting on performance improvements.
  • TheYKcid
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    @jypcy I sure hope it isn't real, personally. But on the off-chance that it is, I reckon it's a good idea to get the brainstorming and discourse started ahead of time—because ZOS seems to have an enormous amount of inertia when responding to feedback during a PTS cycle.

    Just to be clear, I don't claim this to be any form of mechanics abuse. After all, DK chains are already in the game and they do just that. But I do feel that this change wouldn't be healthy for the balance of power in PvP. the odds are already stacked against smallscalers, why empower the zerg further?

    I'd be totally happy with the skill receiving an alternative effect when used on players. A good example would be Ambush—stuns when used on an NPC, micro-snares when used on a player.
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  • Minno
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    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Turelus wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Turelus wrote: »
    Block?

    Snare myself by 50% while trying to outrun a zerg. Gotcha.
    Roll Dodge?
    • Consecutively roll-dodging Mag toon with a 15k stamina pool
    • Zerg

    Who runs out of stamina first?

    You roll Dodge once when 20 people hit this ability, you'll dodge all 20 ;)
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  • Sharee
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    Oooh, chain pull is my absolute favorite skill in the whole game, if i don't have to play my DK to use it - fantastic! :)
    On the flip side, characters other than DKs now have the ability to pull players out of ball groups.

    Exactly! :p
    Edited by Sharee on April 3, 2018 8:57PM
  • jypcy
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    Sure, and I don’t really pvp so most of my opinions on the matter are from secondhand knowledge. Imo the worst thing about it is how often I see victories become a numbers game anyways, so whether or not the larger numbers are able to chain/leash or not doesn’t seem like it’ll do much to mitigate or exacerbate the underlying problem. If you intentionally small scale, it sounds to me like trying to bail out the ocean, and more pulls in a zerg is just adding a hole to the bucket haha

    Definitely hyperbole, but that’s my take on it. I can appreciate why you wouldn’t want it in pvp, though, and tbh stacking adds in pve isn’t really too bad even without pulls, so I wouldn’t mind leaving the skill alone entirely.

    Edit: out of interest, others are saying they like the idea even in pvp to be able to pull bite sized chunks out of a zerg and whittle it down. Does this use make it worth the risk of having more people in a zerg use it?
    Edited by jypcy on April 3, 2018 9:00PM
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