Tactician CP Is Bugged

Joshlenoir

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_Wrobel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqiJ1uWe600&feature=youtu.be

Aznox

Tactician is working as expected and is just as strong as predicted.

Therefore Tactician is bugged and broken

404 logic not found

Passifest

Aznox wrote: »

Tactician is working as expected and is just as strong as predicted.

Therefore Tactician is bugged and broken

404 logic not found

The tool tip says when you use ROLL DODGE not when you dodge due to evasion from things like shuffle and mirage. It is bugged and op in it's current state. Make it only from actual roll dodges and it will be fine imo.

SodanTok

Agree, the tooltip should be changed.

Aznox

Yes the wording is incorrect, but it has always been the case, everyone knows this.

Making it roll dodge only would be a nerf to medium armor, i could say i don't care because i'm playing heavy, but i would prefer ZoS to just do a quick fix on the tooltip than to invest dev time on the thing.

ezeepeezee

Aznox wrote: »

Yes the wording is incorrect, but it has always been the case, everyone knows this.

Making it roll dodge only would be a nerf to medium armor, i could say i don't care because i'm playing heavy, but i would prefer ZoS to just do a quick fix on the tooltip than to invest dev time on the thing.

I think you're missing the part where it's OP.

People have been using shuffle + truth + tactician + exploiter for a while now.

Ragnarock41

ezeepeezee wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Yes the wording is incorrect, but it has always been the case, everyone knows this.

Making it roll dodge only would be a nerf to medium armor, i could say i don't care because i'm playing heavy, but i would prefer ZoS to just do a quick fix on the tooltip than to invest dev time on the thing.

I think you're missing the part where it's OP.

People have been using shuffle + truth + tactician + exploiter for a while now.

Its a known combo for ages now actually.

Joshlenoir

Aznox wrote: »

Yes the wording is incorrect, but it has always been the case, everyone knows this.

Making it roll dodge only would be a nerf to medium armor, i could say i don't care because i'm playing heavy, but i would prefer ZoS to just do a quick fix on the tooltip than to invest dev time on the thing.

So in other words. You think medium armor builds and heavy armor nightblades should be able to have near 100% uptime on the "off-balance" debuff to enemies. Giving them basically x2 resource return on every heavy attack, as well as a permanent 10% damage buff on top of a free stun from every heavy attack. If you need this just to make medium armor work. You aren't playing it right.
I know you don't share the same sentiment, but I'd much rather the tactician (you know, tactical decision making as the passive implies) passive require roll dodge, so it actually rewards intelligent and smart gameplay. Rather than giving free damage, resources and CC's to builds just because they can slot a major evasion ability.

Aznox wrote: »

Tactician is working as expected and is just as strong as predicted.

Therefore Tactician is bugged and broken

404 logic not found

Also if you're going to quote what I say, actually quote what I say. You have to misquote me just to make your points sound valid you so it's obvious you don't have a point at all. Tactician isn't "working as expected" because nowhere has ZoS ever publicly and officially said it's a tooltip mistake. They've fixed multiple tooltips for CP and abilities in the past but not this, so once again you're wrong.

Qbiken

Joshlenoir wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Yes the wording is incorrect, but it has always been the case, everyone knows this.

Making it roll dodge only would be a nerf to medium armor, i could say i don't care because i'm playing heavy, but i would prefer ZoS to just do a quick fix on the tooltip than to invest dev time on the thing.

So in other words. You think medium armor builds and heavy armor nightblades should be able to have near 100% uptime on the "off-balance" debuff to enemies. Giving them basically x2 resource return on every heavy attack, as well as a permanent 10% damage buff on top of a free stun from every heavy attack. If you need this just to make medium armor work. You aren't playing it right.
I know you don't share the same sentiment, but I'd much rather the tactician (you know, tactical decision making as the passive implies) passive require roll dodge, so it actually rewards intelligent and smart gameplay. Rather than giving free damage, resources and CC's to builds just because they can slot a major evasion ability.

Aznox wrote: »

Tactician is working as expected and is just as strong as predicted.

Therefore Tactician is bugged and broken

404 logic not found

Also if you're going to quote what I say, actually quote what I say. You have to misquote me just to make your points sound valid you so it's obvious you don't have a point at all. Tactician isn't "working as expected" because nowhere has ZoS ever publicly and officially said it's a tooltip mistake. They've fixed multiple tooltips for CP and abilities in the past but not this, so once again you're wrong.

Well, you can´t say for sure that the CP-passive is bugged either since ZOS hasn´t made any statement about it. So your statements goes both ways.

The only "un-balanced" thing with off-balance (OB) is how much more it favors and synergies with stamina compared to magicka. Magicka builds used to be able to compete by using lightning-blockade builds but with the recent changes they´re not close to as efficient as they used to be.

The 10% extra damage from exploiter passive is closer to 5-6% more damage due to diminishing returns, so wouldn´t call that too strong. The majority of the users I see utilizing OB are dodge-rollers.Most builds that are using shuffle already rely on dodge-roll as their main defense (very generalizing statement I know, but not too inaccurate), so they´ll get OB anyway, with or without shuffle. If you´ve a build that utilize tactician, you want to have a reliable source of it and be able to control when it procs (in order to set-up your burst). Passive dodge chance (mirage for example) is a bad way of controlling it.

The major overhaul ZOS made to OB in Dragon-Bones was a buff to it, IF you know how to utilize it. And in order to do that, you need to actually use tactical and smart/intelligent gameplay, otherwise you´re better off using other kinds of builds.

The only thing I find strong about OB is the 2x-resource return. Personally I would rather see a small "nerf" to the Morrowind sustain-changes (for specific classes) and revert the Dragon Bone changes to OB.

Joshlenoir

Qbiken wrote: »

Joshlenoir wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Yes the wording is incorrect, but it has always been the case, everyone knows this.

Making it roll dodge only would be a nerf to medium armor, i could say i don't care because i'm playing heavy, but i would prefer ZoS to just do a quick fix on the tooltip than to invest dev time on the thing.

So in other words. You think medium armor builds and heavy armor nightblades should be able to have near 100% uptime on the "off-balance" debuff to enemies. Giving them basically x2 resource return on every heavy attack, as well as a permanent 10% damage buff on top of a free stun from every heavy attack. If you need this just to make medium armor work. You aren't playing it right.
I know you don't share the same sentiment, but I'd much rather the tactician (you know, tactical decision making as the passive implies) passive require roll dodge, so it actually rewards intelligent and smart gameplay. Rather than giving free damage, resources and CC's to builds just because they can slot a major evasion ability.

Aznox wrote: »

Tactician is working as expected and is just as strong as predicted.

Therefore Tactician is bugged and broken

404 logic not found

Also if you're going to quote what I say, actually quote what I say. You have to misquote me just to make your points sound valid you so it's obvious you don't have a point at all. Tactician isn't "working as expected" because nowhere has ZoS ever publicly and officially said it's a tooltip mistake. They've fixed multiple tooltips for CP and abilities in the past but not this, so once again you're wrong.

Well, you can´t say for sure that the CP-passive is bugged either since ZOS hasn´t made any statement about it. So your statements goes both ways.

The only "un-balanced" thing with off-balance (OB) is how much more it favors and synergies with stamina compared to magicka. Magicka builds used to be able to compete by using lightning-blockade builds but with the recent changes they´re not close to as efficient as they used to be.

The 10% extra damage from exploiter passive is closer to 5-6% more damage due to diminishing returns, so wouldn´t call that too strong. The majority of the users I see utilizing OB are dodge-rollers.Most builds that are using shuffle already rely on dodge-roll as their main defense (very generalizing statement I know, but not too inaccurate), so they´ll get OB anyway, with or without shuffle. If you´ve a build that utilize tactician, you want to have a reliable source of it and be able to control when it procs (in order to set-up your burst). Passive dodge chance (mirage for example) is a bad way of controlling it.

The major overhaul ZOS made to OB in Dragon-Bones was a buff to it, IF you know how to utilize it. And in order to do that, you need to actually use tactical and smart/intelligent gameplay, otherwise you´re better off using other kinds of builds.

The only thing I find strong about OB is the 2x-resource return. Personally I would rather see a small "nerf" to the Morrowind sustain-changes (for specific classes) and revert the Dragon Bone changes to OB.

No. It doesn't go both ways. Because for some odd unexplained reason you think the off balance tooltip is supposed to proc off major and minor evasion when the tooltip literally says it only procs off of Dodge roll.
You can use your random line of logic to say any bugged ability or passive isn't bugged because the tooltip just needs to be changed, which makes no sense. Tactician CP is bugged and over performing. Get over it. If you think having off balance tied to a passive ability with 0 cooldown isn't overperforming then you're beyond reason.
A huge chunk of off balance procs when fighting people with this passive actually comes from passive dodge rolls, not active ones.

Aznox

Joshlenoir wrote: »

Also if you're going to quote what I say, actually quote what I say. You have to misquote me just to make your points sound valid you so it's obvious you don't have a point at all. Tactician isn't "working as expected" because nowhere has ZoS ever publicly and officially said it's a tooltip mistake. They've fixed multiple tooltips for CP and abilities in the past but not this, so once again you're wrong.

Ok, my bad for mocking your "bugged" statement, tactician proc on all dodge has been a fact for me for so long that i forgot the tooltip error. I though you were claiming the 'no-cooldown' thing was some sort of bug, it isn't.

If you need this just to make medium armor work. You aren't playing it right.

As i said i have been using heavy armor exclusively for a long time in pvp, i'm not trying to defend medium.

If you want to make it work on roll-dodge only, fine, i'm just saying it won't make that much of a difference (up-time will stay very high for a good medium armor player) and that there many other bugs that we have been waiting on ZoS to fix.

@naming ESO staff with threads mixing bug report (tooltip is wrong) and opinions (over performing because no cooldown) is the best way to have them ignore us and loose bugfix opportunities.

Ragnarock41

I do agree off balance is a little too strong.(%10 extra damage is no joke and its too easy to proc it with CP, too hard without CP.) Though I'm fine with any change or no change at all because I mainly play no-cp, and in no-cp proccing off balance is just impossible most of the time.

Joshlenoir

Aznox wrote: »

Joshlenoir wrote: »

Also if you're going to quote what I say, actually quote what I say. You have to misquote me just to make your points sound valid you so it's obvious you don't have a point at all. Tactician isn't "working as expected" because nowhere has ZoS ever publicly and officially said it's a tooltip mistake. They've fixed multiple tooltips for CP and abilities in the past but not this, so once again you're wrong.

Ok, my bad for mocking your "bugged" statement, tactician proc on all dodge has been a fact for me for so long that i forgot the tooltip error. I though you were claiming the 'no-cooldown' thing was some sort of bug, it isn't.

If you need this just to make medium armor work. You aren't playing it right.

As i said i have been using heavy armor exclusively for a long time in pvp, i'm not trying to defend medium.

If you want to make it work on roll-dodge only, fine, i'm just saying it won't make that much of a difference (up-time will stay very high for a good medium armor player) and that there many other bugs that we have been waiting on ZoS to fix.

@naming ESO staff with threads mixing bug report (tooltip is wrong) and opinions (over performing because no cooldown) is the best way to have them ignore us and loose bugfix opportunities.

I don't know how many times I have to say this but.
tactician CP passive is bugged, because the ability is not working properly. The tooltip says roll dodge is required for it to proc yet it procs off of shuffle (passive) dodge. This is not a tooltip issue so stop trying to make it sound like one. The tooltip is correct, the passive is bugged.
Thank you.

I also fixed the title so it exclusively talks about bugs, nothing to do with overperformance.

SodanTok

The tooltip is incorrect. The passive always worked with any dodge. The game alone doesnt even recognize difference between these two.

Aznox

The tooltip is correct, the passive is bugged.

Saying it once more wasn't necessary, i understood that you think the way this passive currently works is a bug or mistake from the dev team.

I was just saying it could also have been an oversight by the person writing the tooltip.

I think only the game designers can answer that, we can't.

One sure thing is that the two don't match, and a decision has to be made.

I also fixed the title so it exclusively talks about bugs, nothing to do with overperformance.

Thank you, i am now supporting you in your quest to get an answer from ZoS

The game alone doesnt even recognize difference between these two.

Dev lead : ok team, we have have new passives to code for the champion tree update.

Dev 1 : i'll take this tactician thing. - reads the tooltip -

... 30 min later ...

Dev 1 : i have a problem with this passive, it says "on dodge roll" but at this point our code can't distinguish between an active dodge and a passive dodge because the dodge source is not passed to the dodge event, should i spend 3 days rewriting half the game's dodge code ?

Dev lead : We have more urgent things to do, just ship it as is, we will take another look at it later.

... 2 years later ...

Dev 1 : hey remember this tactician dodge thing ? someone opened a bug report because the bonus it gives is now a lot stronger and the activation requirement does not match the tooltip.

Dev lead : just forward it to the UI team and ask them to change the tooltip.

#DevTeamFiction

Sharee

Joshlenoir wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Joshlenoir wrote: »

Also if you're going to quote what I say, actually quote what I say. You have to misquote me just to make your points sound valid you so it's obvious you don't have a point at all. Tactician isn't "working as expected" because nowhere has ZoS ever publicly and officially said it's a tooltip mistake. They've fixed multiple tooltips for CP and abilities in the past but not this, so once again you're wrong.

Ok, my bad for mocking your "bugged" statement, tactician proc on all dodge has been a fact for me for so long that i forgot the tooltip error. I though you were claiming the 'no-cooldown' thing was some sort of bug, it isn't.

If you need this just to make medium armor work. You aren't playing it right.

As i said i have been using heavy armor exclusively for a long time in pvp, i'm not trying to defend medium.

If you want to make it work on roll-dodge only, fine, i'm just saying it won't make that much of a difference (up-time will stay very high for a good medium armor player) and that there many other bugs that we have been waiting on ZoS to fix.

@naming ESO staff with threads mixing bug report (tooltip is wrong) and opinions (over performing because no cooldown) is the best way to have them ignore us and loose bugfix opportunities.

I don't know how many times I have to say this but.
tactician CP passive is bugged, because the ability is not working properly. The tooltip says roll dodge is required for it to proc yet it procs off of shuffle (passive) dodge. This is not a tooltip issue so stop trying to make it sound like one. The tooltip is correct, the passive is bugged.
Thank you.

The only thing you can reliably say (without working at ZOS) is that the tooltip does not match the actual in-game functionality, and thus either the tooltip or the in-game functionality are wrong.

However, you have no way to know whether this is a tooltip issue or not, like the rest of us, until an official statement is made regarding the issue.

Joshlenoir

Tavas Favor : When you DODGE, an attack, you gain X ultimate over 3 seconds.
ZoS clearly understands the conditions of roll dodge vs shuffle dodge. This set procs both from shuffle dodge AND roll dodge



Tactiain: When you use ROLL DODGE to dodge an ability you set the enemy off balance. I don't know why this is so difficult for you guys to understand. Tactician CP is bugged. ZoS purposefully put a condition on this CP passive when they were making it, whereas on tavas favour they didn't.

Aznox

Saying it once more wasn't necessary, i understood that you think the way this passive currently works is a bug or mistake from the dev team.

I was just saying it could also have been an oversight by the person writing the tooltip.

I think only the game designers can answer that, we can't.

One sure thing is that the two don't match, and a decision has to be made.

[...]

What ? This is the same post i wrote above ?

Sharee

Joshlenoir wrote: »

Tactiain: When you use ROLL DODGE to dodge an ability you set the enemy off balance. I don't know why this is so difficult for you guys to understand.

Honestly i don't know why this is so difficult for you to understand. You are basing your claim on a tooltip which might be wrong.

You say the developers made a mistake when making the ability, but refuse the possibility that the same developers made a mistake when writing the tooltip. Because they cant possibly make mistakes, eh?