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Make Mooncalf, Arcanist and healthy on par with Siphoner

BohnT
BohnT
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Right now the 3 "sustain" cp only benefit your regeneration while you have siphoner on the other hand which reduces every resource gain be it from armor, passives, regen or potions.

For other cp the counter cp does exactly the same thing as the offensive cp.
Hardy and Mighty ~ 15% increase/ decrease for poison, physical and disease damage
Elemental expert and elemental defender ~ 15% increase/ decrease for magic, fire, frost or shock damage
Bastion and Shattering blows ~ increase shields & increased damage against shields
Etc.

This is why healthy, Arcanist and mooncalf should also increase your resource gain on sets, potions and passives for the respective resource
No increase for heavy attacks as we still have tenacity cp
  • MehrunesFlagon
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    Get rid of siphoner.Change it to what it used to be.Cost reduction.
  • BohnT
    BohnT
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    Get rid of siphoner.Change it to what it used to be.Cost reduction.

    That would be great but Wrobel loves his "fun" drain mechanics
  • Taleof2Cities
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    I just got done saying this in another thread yesterday:

    There is plenty of sustain in the game if you take the time to actually research and theorycraft your character.
  • Tetrafy
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    I just got done saying this in another thread yesterday:

    There is plenty of sustain in the game if you take the time to actually research and theorycraft your character.

    I still find it hard to believe someone thought a heavy attack meta was a great idea. Its so boring.
  • Numerikuu
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    Tetrafy wrote: »
    I just got done saying this in another thread yesterday:

    There is plenty of sustain in the game if you take the time to actually research and theorycraft your character.

    I still find it hard to believe someone thought a heavy attack meta was a great idea. Its so boring.

    This... Especially if you're a flame stave wielding magdk.........
  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    Sure, but they'd have to tone down sustain in general then to accommodate for this.

    Infinite sustain builds are already everywhere in PvP, they don't need further buffing.
  • MehrunesFlagon
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    DDuke wrote: »
    Sure, but they'd have to tone down sustain in general then to accommodate for this.

    Infinite sustain builds are already everywhere in PvP, they don't need further buffing.

    This was never due to cost reduction.It's due to high regen set sets.Lich etc....
  • MehrunesFlagon
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    I just got done saying this in another thread yesterday:

    There is plenty of sustain in the game if you take the time to actually research and theorycraft your character.

    I would take cost reduction over regen any day personally.
  • BohnT
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    DDuke wrote: »
    Sure, but they'd have to tone down sustain in general then to accommodate for this.

    Infinite sustain builds are already everywhere in PvP, they don't need further buffing.

    This wouldn't make infinite sustain builds possible.
    The gained sustain will be way less than 15% for every build because most builds get their main sustain through regeneration.
    Also it's stupid to have equal amplifiers and debuffs for all cps but sustain.
  • ParaNostram
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    Get rid of siphoner.Change it to what it used to be.Cost reduction.

    Nope, nah, please don't make the twitch your fingers faster to animation cancel your way to victory meta any worse. I just don't see anything strategic about a game where you literally cannot spend your resources fast enough to run out. It was my personal nightmare.

    Note, I don't have anything against animation cancelling, it adds an additional level of skill on top of the game, a little thing to master that can give you an advantage in a fight. With current sustain, you can't do this continually at all times to get your way to victory, you still have to play smart and manage your resources. Take away the resource management aspect and gods I don't think I could go through that again...
    Tetrafy wrote: »
    I just got done saying this in another thread yesterday:

    There is plenty of sustain in the game if you take the time to actually research and theorycraft your character.

    I still find it hard to believe someone thought a heavy attack meta was a great idea. Its so boring.

    The phrase heavy attack meta feels misleading to me. More like choose when to use an ability when to use a heavy attack for resources etc etc. You know, like the game was originally pitched. No cooldowns, just resource management. It's one of the things that sold me on the game early on so yeah I guess you better believe some of us like it.
    Edited by ParaNostram on March 31, 2018 4:30PM
    "Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."

    Para Nostram
    Bosmer Sorceress
    Witch of Evermore

    "Death is a privilege that can be denied by it's learned scholars."
    Order of the Black Worm
  • MehrunesFlagon
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    DDuke wrote: »
    Sure, but they'd have to tone down sustain in general then to accommodate for this.

    Infinite sustain builds are already everywhere in PvP, they don't need further buffing.

    How about we not worry about pvp
  • ParaNostram
    ParaNostram
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    DDuke wrote: »
    Sure, but they'd have to tone down sustain in general then to accommodate for this.

    Infinite sustain builds are already everywhere in PvP, they don't need further buffing.

    How about we not worry about pvp

    How about we not ignore a large chunk of the game's population. What are we, ZOS deciding what content to make? (Nothing new for PvP since Morrowind, and before that since Imperial City)
    "Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."

    Para Nostram
    Bosmer Sorceress
    Witch of Evermore

    "Death is a privilege that can be denied by it's learned scholars."
    Order of the Black Worm
  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    BohnT wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sure, but they'd have to tone down sustain in general then to accommodate for this.

    Infinite sustain builds are already everywhere in PvP, they don't need further buffing.

    This wouldn't make infinite sustain builds possible.
    The gained sustain will be way less than 15% for every build because most builds get their main sustain through regeneration.
    Also it's stupid to have equal amplifiers and debuffs for all cps but sustain.

    No, it wouldn't - because they already are possible.

    Eternal Hunt+Senche & have fun dodge rolling endlessly around some tree or tower with 4k stam regen while using Shadow Image and/or Cloak to reset the stacking cost modifier every now and then.

    These *** builds don't need more sustain so that they can stack more damage & hit harder with Incaps/Relentless while infinitely rolling around kiting pugs.


    So by all means, make the CPs make more sense - as long as the overall sustain we have right now stays the same (or gets tuned down, preferably!).
  • ak_pvp
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    DDuke wrote: »
    Sure, but they'd have to tone down sustain in general then to accommodate for this.

    Infinite sustain builds are already everywhere in PvP, they don't need further buffing.

    They aren't really though. 1v1, yeah, but I don't see any DK/Temp/Sorc that can sustain under any real multi target pressure, those defenses scale awfully. And I see no builds at all that can sustain well when debuffed enough, even cloak/high mobility AKA avoid damage tactics mean nothing when you have so many debuffs on you by mindless zerglings.

    We need more sets like old desert rose, (little less OP though) where proc is low, but with enough pressure regen becomes really high. But then you run into the RNG wins issue. So maybe every X hits taken it would proc.
    Edited by ak_pvp on March 31, 2018 4:53PM
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • BohnT
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    DDuke wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sure, but they'd have to tone down sustain in general then to accommodate for this.

    Infinite sustain builds are already everywhere in PvP, they don't need further buffing.

    This wouldn't make infinite sustain builds possible.
    The gained sustain will be way less than 15% for every build because most builds get their main sustain through regeneration.
    Also it's stupid to have equal amplifiers and debuffs for all cps but sustain.

    No, it wouldn't - because they already are possible.

    Eternal Hunt+Senche & have fun dodge rolling endlessly around some tree or tower with 4k stam regen while using Shadow Image and/or Cloak to reset the stacking cost modifier every now and then.

    These *** builds don't need more sustain so that they can stack more damage & hit harder with Incaps/Relentless while infinitely rolling around kiting pugs.


    So by all means, make the CPs make more sense - as long as the overall sustain we have right now stays the same (or gets tuned down, preferably!).

    this build wouldn't get anymore sustain except for potions and that equals ~1k stam more every 45 seconds this doesn't break sustain.
  • BohnT
    BohnT
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    DDuke wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sure, but they'd have to tone down sustain in general then to accommodate for this.

    Infinite sustain builds are already everywhere in PvP, they don't need further buffing.

    This wouldn't make infinite sustain builds possible.
    The gained sustain will be way less than 15% for every build because most builds get their main sustain through regeneration.
    Also it's stupid to have equal amplifiers and debuffs for all cps but sustain.

    No, it wouldn't - because they already are possible.

    Eternal Hunt+Senche & have fun dodge rolling endlessly around some tree or tower with 4k stam regen while using Shadow Image and/or Cloak to reset the stacking cost modifier every now and then.

    These *** builds don't need more sustain so that they can stack more damage & hit harder with Incaps/Relentless while infinitely rolling around kiting pugs.


    So by all means, make the CPs make more sense - as long as the overall sustain we have right now stays the same (or gets tuned down, preferably!).

    also sustain doesn't have to be brought down, only nb has somewhat good sustain.
    Play stamplar, stamdk, magplar etc all classes except for nightblade have to invest a lot into sustain and with poisons + siphoner there are not many good builds around who can still sustain.
  • Vaoh
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    Tetrafy wrote: »
    I just got done saying this in another thread yesterday:

    There is plenty of sustain in the game if you take the time to actually research and theorycraft your character.

    I still find it hard to believe someone thought a heavy attack meta was a great idea. Its so boring.

    Not just someone. We’re talking about the Lead Combat dev.

    He want fights to have “regen phases” where we spam Heavy attacks for resources, and “burst phases” where you use your resources over the course of a few rotations.

    For this to happen, Homestead levels of sustain were too strong. As a result theyremoved the cost reduction CP and nerfed regen CPs in order to encourage this sort of regen phase/burst phase gameplay.
  • xeNNNNN
    xeNNNNN
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    Get rid of siphoner.Change it to what it used to be.Cost reduction.

    Nope, nah, please don't make the twitch your fingers faster to animation cancel your way to victory meta any worse. I just don't see anything strategic about a game where you literally cannot spend your resources fast enough to run out. It was my personal nightmare.

    Note, I don't have anything against animation cancelling, it adds an additional level of skill on top of the game, a little thing to master that can give you an advantage in a fight. With current sustain, you can't do this continually at all times to get your way to victory, you still have to play smart and manage your resources. Take away the resource management aspect and gods I don't think I could go through that again...
    Tetrafy wrote: »
    I just got done saying this in another thread yesterday:

    There is plenty of sustain in the game if you take the time to actually research and theorycraft your character.

    I still find it hard to believe someone thought a heavy attack meta was a great idea. Its so boring.

    The phrase heavy attack meta feels misleading to me. More like choose when to use an ability when to use a heavy attack for resources etc etc. You know, like the game was originally pitched. No cooldowns, just resource management. It's one of the things that sold me on the game early on so yeah I guess you better believe some of us like it.

    Oh come on.

    The lack of cost reduction kills build diversity.

    8/10 builds now are 1 sustain set, 1 burst monster set, 1 Damage set

    The only time where someone doesnt even wear a full monster set is because they're trying too push their sustain higher so they have 1 regen 1 max stat or both max stat or both regen.

    Before you could easily just cobble something together without sustain being always on your mind you could mix and match and actually have fun. Now its just stressful and boring. Yeah sustain should matter, but not to the point where it kills half the builds in the game that are fun even if they arent strong builds.

    Unless you're fine with 90% of the player base running shacklebreaker all the time in pvp.
    Edited by xeNNNNN on March 31, 2018 6:50PM
    Ah, e-communities - the "pinnacle" of the internet............yeah, right.
  • WrathOfInnos
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    This is a good point. These 3 regen passives should apply to all sources of resource gain to balance Siphoner. Alternatively Arcanist and Mooncalf could be changed to cost reduction up to 15%, since this would effectively do the same thing.
  • Avran_Sylt
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    @xeNNNNN

    Oh, you're talking about the diversity when it was only Damage sets?


    All Damage means you need to Heavy attack now but have higher Damage, leaving you with Burst stages.

    Running Mixed means don't need to Heavy attack as often But with lower Damage, so your damage is more spread out.

    This is balanced, and allows utilization of more sets in the game.

  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    BohnT wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sure, but they'd have to tone down sustain in general then to accommodate for this.

    Infinite sustain builds are already everywhere in PvP, they don't need further buffing.

    This wouldn't make infinite sustain builds possible.
    The gained sustain will be way less than 15% for every build because most builds get their main sustain through regeneration.
    Also it's stupid to have equal amplifiers and debuffs for all cps but sustain.

    No, it wouldn't - because they already are possible.

    Eternal Hunt+Senche & have fun dodge rolling endlessly around some tree or tower with 4k stam regen while using Shadow Image and/or Cloak to reset the stacking cost modifier every now and then.

    These *** builds don't need more sustain so that they can stack more damage & hit harder with Incaps/Relentless while infinitely rolling around kiting pugs.


    So by all means, make the CPs make more sense - as long as the overall sustain we have right now stays the same (or gets tuned down, preferably!).

    this build wouldn't get anymore sustain except for potions and that equals ~1k stam more every 45 seconds this doesn't break sustain.

    No, but it does make problematic builds even more problematic when the trend should be the opposite.

    Also, did you consider that Siphoning Attacks/Leeching Strikes would also be affected by your CP idea?


    None of these need any buffing, so their values would have to be adjusted to fit the CPs.
    BohnT wrote: »
    also sustain doesn't have to be brought down, only nb has somewhat good sustain.
    Play stamplar, stamdk, magplar etc all classes except for nightblade have to invest a lot into sustain and with poisons + siphoner there are not many good builds around who can still sustain.

    The fact that people can remove the whole resource management aspect of the game by investing heavily into sustain is the problem. Infinite sustain should never be a thing, and on NB it's a particularly bad problem as those rollerblades can still kill people even if they stack 4k stam regen and as a result have garbage weapon dmg/stam pools, largely thanks to Relentless Focus+Incap which give them as high burst as more dmg oriented builds of other classes thanks to the naturally high tooltip of Relentless & the +20% modifier applied by Incap.

    All they have to do is dodge roll & cloak around until Relentless & Incap are up and a pug dies.


    One could easily think Relentless & Incap are the problem, but when you play a high dmg stamblade you can easily come to the conclusion that it's not the case when your resource pools are actually limited & your mistakes are punished.

    A dodged Incap+Relentless suddenly means you have to worry about running out of stamina before you can even have a second attempt at killing someone, where as a rollerblade with practically infinite regen can just try again and again.

    Playing a high regen build is too forgiving and needs to be punished more, maybe then we might see some more people diverge from the established meta.
    Edited by DDuke on March 31, 2018 7:33PM
  • xeNNNNN
    xeNNNNN
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    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
    @xeNNNNN

    Oh, you're talking about the diversity when it was only Damage sets?


    All Damage means you need to Heavy attack now but have higher Damage, leaving you with Burst stages.

    Running Mixed means don't need to Heavy attack as often But with lower Damage, so your damage is more spread out.

    This is balanced, and allows utilization of more sets in the game.

    Regardless of damage set stacking, I wasnt doing it. I had multiple builds that I liked using myself that werent meta and were fun too play but they were built around reduction and regen, sure I had a build that was pure damage too. But thats besides the point, sure people did stack damage sets but they ended up being glass cannons most of the time.

    I would much rather fight people with pure damage and lacking sustain issues than play currently where stuns are basically the solution too everything. CC is so prevalent now that I wonder why I even bother leaving a keep.

    Hell even my bombblade was set up differently at that time.

    A lot of people dont play meta, meaning that they used other sets regardless of whether they were the best or not. Now they have to use sustain sets too actually keep up with the meta players. So no it killed diversity it didnt encourage it, you just traded a damage set for a sustain set so many other sets still arent being used but at least when reduction was here you had a real choice.
    Ah, e-communities - the "pinnacle" of the internet............yeah, right.
  • Ragnarock41
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    It would be a Dk buff. Kind of. But a not as big as it sounds.
    If I were to put %10 into mooncalf and it buffed every form of stamina return on my build,
    I would be getting:

    1100 ish stam instead of 1k from helping hands,
    5500 stam from a leap proccing battle roar instead of 5k'ish. (500 extra stamina, game breaking difference here, nurf Dk)
    adre rush would be around 880 stam return. Still a lot weaker than what it was pre-morrowind.
    aaand black rose would still be crap because Its a double nerfed set :P


    It actually sounds like an interesting idea. As of right now there is no way to improve the values you get from things like constution( again, black rose is just bad),adre rush,helping hands, battle roar etc..
    Edited by Ragnarock41 on March 31, 2018 9:33PM
  • Getern
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    BohnT wrote: »
    Get rid of siphoner.Change it to what it used to be.Cost reduction.

    That would be great but Wrobel loves his "fun" drain mechanics

    Wait so casuals dont actually like Wrobel's changes? Opposite to what they state in most threads about balance?
  • BohnT
    BohnT
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    Getern wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    Get rid of siphoner.Change it to what it used to be.Cost reduction.

    That would be great but Wrobel loves his "fun" drain mechanics

    Wait so casuals dont actually like Wrobel's changes? Opposite to what they state in most threads about balance?
    ??
  • ak_pvp
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    It would be a Dk buff. Kind of. But a not as big as it sounds.
    If I were to put %10 into mooncalf and it buffed every form of stamina return on my build,
    I would be getting:

    1100 ish stam instead of 1k from helping hands,
    5500 stam from a leap proccing battle roar instead of 5k'ish. (500 extra stamina, game breaking difference here, nurf Dk)
    adre rush would be around 880 stam return. Still a lot weaker than what it was pre-morrowind.
    aaand black rose would still be crap because Its a double nerfed set :P


    It actually sounds like an interesting idea. As of right now there is no way to improve the values you get from things like constution( again, black rose is just bad),adre rush,helping hands, battle roar etc..

    Wasn't black rose triple nerfed. IIRC constitution used to scale like battle roar. So it was legitimately pretty broken. At the mag+30% changes it was fair. In 5/1/1 180 regen of each type, and 150 damage buff. The drawback being unbuffable. Relied on getting hit, and to get it higher you would have to lose undaunted passives.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    It would be a Dk buff. Kind of. But a not as big as it sounds.
    If I were to put %10 into mooncalf and it buffed every form of stamina return on my build,
    I would be getting:

    1100 ish stam instead of 1k from helping hands,
    5500 stam from a leap proccing battle roar instead of 5k'ish. (500 extra stamina, game breaking difference here, nurf Dk)
    adre rush would be around 880 stam return. Still a lot weaker than what it was pre-morrowind.
    aaand black rose would still be crap because Its a double nerfed set :P


    It actually sounds like an interesting idea. As of right now there is no way to improve the values you get from things like constution( again, black rose is just bad),adre rush,helping hands, battle roar etc..

    Wasn't black rose triple nerfed. IIRC constitution used to scale like battle roar. So it was legitimately pretty broken. At the mag+30% changes it was fair. In 5/1/1 180 regen of each type, and 150 damage buff. The drawback being unbuffable. Relied on getting hit, and to get it higher you would have to lose undaunted passives.

    either way its now a dead set thanks to our community. Shacklebreaker completely replaced it. I'm fine with it. I just find it dumb to overnerf a set like that.
  • Taleof2Cities
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    Tetrafy wrote: »
    I just got done saying this in another thread yesterday:

    There is plenty of sustain in the game if you take the time to actually research and theorycraft your character.

    I still find it hard to believe someone thought a heavy attack meta was a great idea. Its so boring.

    My comment was in no way inferring heavy attacks for resource return.
  • Getern
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    BohnT wrote: »
    Getern wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    Get rid of siphoner.Change it to what it used to be.Cost reduction.

    That would be great but Wrobel loves his "fun" drain mechanics

    Wait so casuals dont actually like Wrobel's changes? Opposite to what they state in most threads about balance?
    ??

    @BohnT Sorry for assuming the worst about u. But we got what we got on these forums.

    Whenever there is some uproar about unnecessary changes decreasing quality of life in ESO, there is always bunch of brainless casuals around stating that the change was positive. I am still trying to figure out whats in zerglin's mind.
  • BohnT
    BohnT
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    Getern wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    Getern wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    Get rid of siphoner.Change it to what it used to be.Cost reduction.

    That would be great but Wrobel loves his "fun" drain mechanics

    Wait so casuals dont actually like Wrobel's changes? Opposite to what they state in most threads about balance?
    ??

    @BohnT Sorry for assuming the worst about u. But we got what we got on these forums.

    Whenever there is some uproar about unnecessary changes decreasing quality of life in ESO, there is always bunch of brainless casuals around stating that the change was positive. I am still trying to figure out whats in zerglin's mind.

    that Change would be a nerf to zerglings as they can negate more sustain than you can get via the current cp system
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