jewelry crafting and 2h/staves

anfmofo

I was genuinely excited for jewelry crafting but then I realised that it would not affect any of my 2h/magic builds as They will not be able to wear 2x 5 piece sets and a monster set in the same way as dual wield builds.

For balancing surely we need staves and 2 handed to count as 2 pieces. Unless I'm missing something my Sorc wont be able to wear 2 piece monster plus julianos and spinners whilst receiving all buffs at same time. But my NB can wear 5 x hundings 5x spriggan and a monster set,

Can anyone at ZOS advise on this please?

Saturnana

You're not missing something. You're totally right, in fact. But jewelry crafting can certainly be a positive change for 2h/staff builds, it just has the same slot limitations as before. So where I previously couldn't wear 5x Hundings, 5x NMG, 2x Asylum bows (for instance), I'll now be able to. And that's already a huge plus for me. I have no qualms with 2h weapons counting as two set pieces, though.

Balance issues were previously given as an argument against the change, but since jewelry crafting will probably mean the single-biggest shift in balance we've seen in a long time - maybe even forever - considering all the new builds that will be possible, I don't see a better opportunity than right now to review the way set pieces add up.

zaria

Don't see an major shift in balance, you can wear two crafted sets, doubt many builds will be OP. Perhaps a few for PvP.
Overland sets will be cheaper as you can upgrade green and blue jewelry.
You can run normal dlc dungeons and trials and upgrade jewelry.
All it does is raise the floor.
On the other hand we will get 6 more jewelry traits, good chance we will get them for all drops.
if you don't plan to get Summerset it will be smart to farm dungeon jewelry now.

anfmofo

lnsane wrote: »

, I don't see a better opportunity than right now to review the way set pieces add up.

100% this.

Emma_Overload

Yeah, the sooner ZOS resolves this long-standing issue, the better.

Needless to say, I full support counting 2H/Staves as two set piece slots!

STEVIL

I believe the "solution" to the fact that one handed weapons and two handed weapons are not "as same as they could possibly be" is to just add a two-weapon magica weapon skill tree.

that would give stamina-based, health-based (tanky) and magica-based builds the same kind of "do i want an 11 count build, a 12 count build or a 12-11 swap build" choices without the need to "samify" them by removing the difference between those choices.

Stamina DPS has 2h and dw
tanky (health) as sword and shield and also ice staff
magica currently has only one-handed weapons (that return magica and feed off magica scaling)

its the lack of a two-weapon choice for magica that is the current hitch (if there is one) not that the choices matter.

Choices should matter and should produce differences but for balance its good to have a functional equality in the types of choices available.

karekiz

Yes, with JC we need to revise the two handed stance. I think X2 weapons + JC are gonna push away leaving staves and 2 handers further back in PvE. They won't die obviously <Always nice to have some magic>, but the fact that now you can do X5 + X5 + X2 monster set is a bit much in comparison to limiting the others off monster sets.

Nighn_9

anfmofo wrote: »

I was genuinely excited for jewelry crafting but then I realised that it would not affect any of my 2h/magic builds as They will not be able to wear 2x 5 piece sets and a monster set in the same way as dual wield builds.

For balancing surely we need staves and 2 handed to count as 2 pieces. Unless I'm missing something my Sorc wont be able to wear 2 piece monster plus julianos and spinners whilst receiving all buffs at same time. But my NB can wear 5 x hundings 5x spriggan and a monster set,

Can anyone at ZOS advise on this please?

might be in natch potes broski

Kanar

There's no issue. 2h weapons are a single item and so count as a single item for set bonus.

lucky_Sage

from what I remember they said they have been debating 2 handed weapons as 2 but has yet to decide yes or no

anfmofo

I have seen some sorcs/NBs achieve good results with 2 swords on front bar but its so hard to sustain.

Also trials currently are full of stam dual wielders and I feel this would just widen the gap. Maybe I am totally wrong but it seems a little unfair and having 2 handed weapons class as 2 items opens up a world of possibilities for all classes and roles.

EvilAutoTech

For balance, jewelry crafting changes nothing unless ZOS releases craftable sets with strong three piece bonuses.

Jewelry crafting will allow for a greater variety of armor set mixing but I doubt many all crafted combos will be even as strong as wearing at least one dungeon set.

I have three characters over level 50, only one wears any crafted gear. I don't plan on having any more in crafted gear when they reach 50.

STEVIL

anfmofo wrote: »

I have seen some sorcs/NBs achieve good results with 2 swords on front bar but its so hard to sustain.

Also trials currently are full of stam dual wielders and I feel this would just widen the gap. Maybe I am totally wrong but it seems a little unfair and having 2 handed weapons class as 2 items opens up a world of possibilities for all classes and roles.

As many as it opens it closes.

For those where maximizing performance matters to a large degree, they will still wind up migrating into the top confiurations - after such a change there may simply be new top configurations, not more.

For those who don't place a high importance on maximizing output, the difference is already close enough and sufficient to allow them to play whichever they want.

But in general, the rub is this... what "opening up more options" does is increase the number of options not used by the maximize performance matters crowd. Whateve rthat top cluster is, as it changes from patch to patch, it gets used.

The real differences between 2h and DW and such and where they work and where they dont optimally perform is in the abilities - not that extra set piece. Adding the extra set piece is not gonna make 2h better for cases where you need the dw abilities.

What you might well see is 2h just beating DW... since last time i checked (been a while) 2h held its top position in more bursty and solo style play (pvp) while dw held its own in more group pve DPS style play.

But, no matter what, the current "balance state" (like it or not) is based on and has baked into it years and years of data where dw and sword and shield was getting the extra set piece factor and 2h/staves/bows were not. that "difference" is already cooked into the balance patch after balance patch after playtest after playtest and real-play over the years. That means if they do suddenly choose to throw "extra set piece" into 2h, staff, bow as some crude cudgel of a change as opposed to the smaller targeted changes they have been making - you can expect to see serious rebalancing and refiguring of all of those.

"unfair" would be ignoring the set count difference, but it has been included in every set of playtest data, real-in-game data they analyze since the start and fed into too many tweaks to count.

"unfair" would be making this global switch to add extra set pieces to 2h/bow/staff **without** just as much playtest and rebalancing of the weapon skills.

To me the only "problem" is the lack of a 2 weapon magic" option and it seems to me the solution would be much simpler, much more scalpel than cudgel, to add in one new weapon tree for that than to have to actually rebalance all the existing ones in a short time frame. far fewer moving parts and a solid baseline benchmark to compare it too.

Emma_Overload

STEVIL wrote: »

anfmofo wrote: »

I have seen some sorcs/NBs achieve good results with 2 swords on front bar but its so hard to sustain.

Also trials currently are full of stam dual wielders and I feel this would just widen the gap. Maybe I am totally wrong but it seems a little unfair and having 2 handed weapons class as 2 items opens up a world of possibilities for all classes and roles.

As many as it opens it closes.

For those where maximizing performance matters to a large degree, they will still wind up migrating into the top confiurations - after such a change there may simply be new top configurations, not more.

For those who don't place a high importance on maximizing output, the difference is already close enough and sufficient to allow them to play whichever they want.

But in general, the rub is this... what "opening up more options" does is increase the number of options not used by the maximize performance matters crowd. Whateve rthat top cluster is, as it changes from patch to patch, it gets used.

The real differences between 2h and DW and such and where they work and where they dont optimally perform is in the abilities - not that extra set piece. Adding the extra set piece is not gonna make 2h better for cases where you need the dw abilities.

What you might well see is 2h just beating DW... since last time i checked (been a while) 2h held its top position in more bursty and solo style play (pvp) while dw held its own in more group pve DPS style play.

But, no matter what, the current "balance state" (like it or not) is based on and has baked into it years and years of data where dw and sword and shield was getting the extra set piece factor and 2h/staves/bows were not. that "difference" is already cooked into the balance patch after balance patch after playtest after playtest and real-play over the years. That means if they do suddenly choose to throw "extra set piece" into 2h, staff, bow as some crude cudgel of a change as opposed to the smaller targeted changes they have been making - you can expect to see serious rebalancing and refiguring of all of those.

"unfair" would be ignoring the set count difference, but it has been included in every set of playtest data, real-in-game data they analyze since the start and fed into too many tweaks to count.

"unfair" would be making this global switch to add extra set pieces to 2h/bow/staff **without** just as much playtest and rebalancing of the weapon skills.

To me the only "problem" is the lack of a 2 weapon magic" option and it seems to me the solution would be much simpler, much more scalpel than cudgel, to add in one new weapon tree for that than to have to actually rebalance all the existing ones in a short time frame. far fewer moving parts and a solid baseline benchmark to compare it too.

I don't agree with any of this. You make it sound like ZOS are a bunch of rocket scientists or something, as if they designed the weapon lines with every little detail taken into consideration, right down to the effects a single set bonus more or less would make....

Hahahahahahahaha. Dude, no. These are the same guys who try to reduce lag in Cyrodiil by killing off all the torch bugs and deer! The reason dual wield has one more set bonus than two handers isn't because of some meticulously designed scheme to maintain balance, it's because ZOS just wings it when comes to anything involving math. Why do you think the Champion System has these goofy "jump points" that ZOS doesn't like to talk about? Math is just not their strength, it's always been up to the players to figure it out for them.

This idea floating around this thread that giving 2H, staves and bows an extra set bonus will somehow unbalance the game is pure bunk. The fact is that this has been UNBALANCED ever since the 2 piece monster sets were launched, and it's only been getting worse as more proc sets have been released. The time for this gross Injustice to be rectified is long overdue. ZOS needs to address this before the imbalance gets even more unfair.

GeorgeBlack

Is this a make 2h 2 set piece thread?

Brrrofski

People are still crying about this?

Slick_007

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Yeah, the sooner ZOS resolves this long-standing issue, the better.

Needless to say, I full support counting 2H/Staves as two set piece slots!

what issue? i dont see one here

Sheezabeast

Kanar wrote: »

There's no issue. 2h weapons are a single item and so count as a single item for set bonus.

Jsmalls

I'm all for staves, bows, and 2 handers to get a 2 piece set item treatment, but if they do they HAVE to reevaluate Master/Maelstrom/Asylum weapons. They are already mostly outclassed by replacing them with a set item, if this ever goes onto effect they'd become borderline useless!

Ladislao

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I don't agree with any of this. You make it sound like ZOS are a bunch of rocket scientists or something, as if they designed the weapon lines with every little detail taken into consideration, right down to the effects a single set bonus more or less would make....

Hahahahahahahaha. Dude, no. These are the same guys who try to reduce lag in Cyrodiil by killing off all the torch bugs and deer! The reason duel wield has one more set bonus than two handers isn't because of some meticulously designed scheme to maintain balance, it's because ZOS just wings it when comes to anything involving math. Why do you think the Champion System has these goofy "jump points" that ZOS doesn't like to talk about? Math is just not their strength, it's always been up to the players to figure it out for them.

This idea floating around this thread that giving 2H, staves and bows an extra set bonus will somehow unbalance the game is pure bunk. The fact is that this has been UNBALANCED ever since the 2 piece monster sets were launched, and it's only been getting worse as more proc sets have been released. The time for this gross Injustice to be rectified is long overdue. ZOS needs to address this before the imbalance gets even more unfair.

Of course, they are not scientists or something. But they certainly do their job better than anyone else on the forum.
How much should you be self-confident or/and silly to consider yourself smarter than the whole team of developers of the giant game?

Arundo

Kanar wrote: »

There's no issue. 2h weapons are a single item and so count as a single item for set bonus.

Your correct there's no issue with 2H weapons, but there is an issue with the other slot so ZOS should finally fix the Quiver/Wand/Mage Book/Magic turd (offhand) giving the 5th setbonus.

Might be something they could add with jewelcrafting, and yes then they should balance 2H's to fit the change.

Dead horse and ***, this should have been fixed before already.

Sheezabeast

Arundo wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

There's no issue. 2h weapons are a single item and so count as a single item for set bonus.

Your correct there's no issue with 2H weapons, but there is an issue with the other slot so ZOS should finally fix the Quiver/Wand/Mage Book/Magic turd (offhand) giving the 5th setbonus.

Might be something they could add with jewelcrafting, and yes then they should balance 2H's to fit the change.

Dead horse and ***, this should have been fixed before already.

Fixed? The system was never broken. You simply chose to wield a Staff or 2 hander, instead of two swords, or a sword and shield. This does NOT support build diversity, in fact, it homogenizes it. It will do the opposite of encourage build diversity, until Zos does implement spell crafting or some other way of casting spells, if the game goes in that direction. Dead horse is dead.

klowdy1

Kanar wrote: »

There's no issue. 2h weapons are a single item and so count as a single item for set bonus.

A single item that takes two slots. I'm fine which ever way this breaks, but this is a bad argument against.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Ladislao wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I don't agree with any of this. You make it sound like ZOS are a bunch of rocket scientists or something, as if they designed the weapon lines with every little detail taken into consideration, right down to the effects a single set bonus more or less would make....

Hahahahahahahaha. Dude, no. These are the same guys who try to reduce lag in Cyrodiil by killing off all the torch bugs and deer! The reason duel wield has one more set bonus than two handers isn't because of some meticulously designed scheme to maintain balance, it's because ZOS just wings it when comes to anything involving math. Why do you think the Champion System has these goofy "jump points" that ZOS doesn't like to talk about? Math is just not their strength, it's always been up to the players to figure it out for them.

This idea floating around this thread that giving 2H, staves and bows an extra set bonus will somehow unbalance the game is pure bunk. The fact is that this has been UNBALANCED ever since the 2 piece monster sets were launched, and it's only been getting worse as more proc sets have been released. The time for this gross Injustice to be rectified is long overdue. ZOS needs to address this before the imbalance gets even more unfair.

Of course, they are not scientists or something. But they certainly do their job better than anyone else on the forum.
How much should you be self-confident or/and silly to consider yourself smarter than the whole team of developers of the giant game?

It is called arrogance.

Druid40

Boost staff base damage to be at parity with 2h. Keep slots as they are. Also, physical weapon skill line passives should only boost physical damage.

Arundo

Sheezabeast wrote: »

Arundo wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

There's no issue. 2h weapons are a single item and so count as a single item for set bonus.

Your correct there's no issue with 2H weapons, but there is an issue with the other slot so ZOS should finally fix the Quiver/Wand/Mage Book/Magic turd (offhand) giving the 5th setbonus.

Might be something they could add with jewelcrafting, and yes then they should balance 2H's to fit the change.

Dead horse and ***, this should have been fixed before already.

Fixed? The system was never broken. You simply chose to wield a Staff or 2 hander, instead of two swords, or a sword and shield. This does NOT support build diversity, in fact, it homogenizes it. It will do the opposite of encourage build diversity, until Zos does implement spell crafting or some other way of casting spells, if the game goes in that direction. Dead horse is dead.

You understand that 4 is less then 5 ? If you do then you understand the problem. If you dont then nvm no point in arguing with you about this.

Emma_Overload

Druid40 wrote: »

Boost staff base damage to be at parity with 2h. Keep slots as they are. Also, physical weapon skill line passives should only boost physical damage.

None of that addresses the lost set bonus that affects both 2H and staves.

STEVIL

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I don't agree with any of this. You make it sound like ZOS are a bunch of rocket scientists or something, as if they designed the weapon lines with every little detail taken into consideration, right down to the effects a single set bonus more or less would make....

Well i cannot help what it may sound like to you but... what i actually said was that the balance efforts that have been made, remade, adjusted, readjusted etc were done with the 11v12 in place.

that did not require designing it with everything in mind... just observing results, tweaking, observing more results etc.

you know, like say adding salt or pepper into a stew. i do not have to know how much was already in it. just taste it, then see what it needs, add a little more, see if it needs more now, etc...

no rocket science needed, just simple old fashioned cooking like grandmas and such were doing for tens of thousands of years before rockets were ever invented.

Course the thing about cooking is, no matter what the stew tastes like, some are going to think you made a tasty stew and others are going to think you made a non-tasty stew.

Some will see that as just a matter pf different preferences or priorities.
others will see that as whether or not you know how to cook.

No matter what tho, one cook made the stew and if a whole lot of people show up for supper, they can feel pretty good that no matter how much hullabaloo a few others made about how bad a cook they are, the proof is in the seating.

***

Now, maybe after June we will see a marveous invigoration of balance.
maybe after june instead of seeing maybe 105 of the builds used in top tier play we will see 50%... maybe 75% due to some massive wonderful change in how the balance plays out now that we have 12pc set counts.

or maybe, we will still see about 10% or whatever in play at the places it matters and 90% in the "other pile" just like we do now only the particulars of which is where are changed and the pile of "the other stuff" gets bigger.

One of the first bits i heard was in sommerset a nerf to a crafted set.

Who knows, might be fantastic.

We will see.

But my bet is, the gripes will continue.

STEVIL

Arundo wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

Arundo wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

There's no issue. 2h weapons are a single item and so count as a single item for set bonus.

Your correct there's no issue with 2H weapons, but there is an issue with the other slot so ZOS should finally fix the Quiver/Wand/Mage Book/Magic turd (offhand) giving the 5th setbonus.

Might be something they could add with jewelcrafting, and yes then they should balance 2H's to fit the change.

Dead horse and ***, this should have been fixed before already.

Fixed? The system was never broken. You simply chose to wield a Staff or 2 hander, instead of two swords, or a sword and shield. This does NOT support build diversity, in fact, it homogenizes it. It will do the opposite of encourage build diversity, until Zos does implement spell crafting or some other way of casting spells, if the game goes in that direction. Dead horse is dead.

You understand that 4 is less then 5 ? If you do then you understand the problem. If you dont then nvm no point in arguing with you about this.

4 tons is not less than 5 lbs when weight matters.

4 touchdowns is not less than 5 field goals when scores matter.

4 weight lifters is not less than 5 gerbils when moving a piano is important.

You do get that staves and 2h weapons and bows have more differences between them and sword and shield and dual wield than just the set piece counts, right? If you do then you understand the problem is more complex than just set counts. If you dont then nvm no point in arguing with you about this.

KanedaSyndrome

anfmofo wrote: »

I was genuinely excited for jewelry crafting but then I realised that it would not affect any of my 2h/magic builds as They will not be able to wear 2x 5 piece sets and a monster set in the same way as dual wield builds.

For balancing surely we need staves and 2 handed to count as 2 pieces. Unless I'm missing something my Sorc wont be able to wear 2 piece monster plus julianos and spinners whilst receiving all buffs at same time. But my NB can wear 5 x hundings 5x spriggan and a monster set,

Can anyone at ZOS advise on this please?

Why won't you be able to do this? You'll have 12 slots to fill out, 2x 5 piece sets and 1x monster set.

KanedaSyndrome

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Yeah, the sooner ZOS resolves this long-standing issue, the better.

Needless to say, I full support counting 2H/Staves as two set piece slots!

Same.. How many were opting for 2-hand weapons instead of dual wield? Probably not many.

It's a much needed change.