Many of this game's "community" problems could be solved by not being incredibly lazy.

Autumnhart

If you're PUGging veteran DLC dungeons and getting frustrated that PUGs are PUGs, your problem is you. If you don't have the patience to deal with them anymore, then don't. Every dungeon in the game can be completed with a group of people you gather yourself, all vetted to be up to your standards.

kargen27

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

Problem 1: People trying to complete quests in dungeons but the whole group leaves too early and they get kicked out.

Solution A: Zenimax re-codes it so people have more time to finish the quest.
Solution B: People travel out of the dungeon manually, THEN leave the group. This gives questers at least a full additional minute to complete it. Problem solved.

Problem 2: PuGs are completely awful at dungeons/trials and cause uncountable hours' worth of delays to everyone else they play with.

Solution: LOOK UP A DAMN GUIDE FOR ANY CONTENT YOU HAVEN'T PLAYED YET. It should take you less than 20 minutes to find an Alcast guide or something and read it from start to finish. This will help you learn mechanics without costing everyone else massive delays.

Problem 3 (ties into problem 2): People are entering vet DLC dungeons at FAR too low of a level.

Solution: Grind some more CP and follow instructions from Problem 2. Simple. You don't NEED to run vet Cradle the second you hit champion 200, nor will you ever. NO group is going to sit there and let you bog them down like that, because you WILL bog them down.

Just the slightest consideration for others from the playerbase would solve all of these huge issues. Zenimax doesn't even have to do anything, these problems are ours to fix.

Announce at start that you are doing quest. Usually at least one member from the group is a decent person and will wait while you finish.

Your solution for number two is a horrible horrible solution. Horrible. Part of the fun of new content is the surprises that come along with that content. When we get new content I try and make sure my first time through is also the rest of the groups first time through. Trying to figure out the mechanics is much of the fun. If you are not willing to accept delays in a run do not PuG. Show some consideration to others and find a group in guild or zone chat that shares your desire to blast right through content in as little time as possible.

Problem three does tie to problem two for those who are in a hurry to get things done. Again the answer is if you are in a hurry do not PuG. If a player with low CP wants to try vet DLC more power to them. I would expect they have done the dungeon on normal before jumping into vet but it shouldn't be required.

You are correct that the slightest consideration for others would solve the problem. Unfortunately you are looking at it from the wrong end. The consideration for others comes in those of us who can do the content quickly slowing down so the others in the group can enjoy the experience. Everything you listed here is a problem of players lacking patience and they could all be solved if those players were willing to either slow down or use something other than grab a random group to do their runs.

Ragnarock41

If your dps is lower than 15k game should not allow you to que for dps.

But then there are fake tanks n healers...

duendology

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

If your dps is lower than 15k game should not allow you to que for dps.

But then there are fake tanks n healers...

You're too good. I am saying let's not allow to que for dungeons unless you're maxed cp, trillions dps on dummy, golden gear, and own arena perfect weapon....oh, oh, and also, submit the certification that they spent hours perfecting their "dungeoning".

Ragnarock41

duendology wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

If your dps is lower than 15k game should not allow you to que for dps.

But then there are fake tanks n healers...

You're too good. I am saying let's not allow to que for dungeons unless you're maxed cp, trillions dps on dummy, golden gear, and own arena perfect weapon....oh, oh, and also, submit the certification that they spent hours perfecting their "dungeoning".

actually I do 15k dps as a friggen tank, so maybe they are too bad?

DF is plagued with bad DDs that do nothing but light attack or that one dude who just spams dizzy swing in heavy armor.
And I didnt even mention the 30k hp dd who decides to turn into a werewolf in the middle of nowhere, or the nb that calls you a bad tank while snipe spamming the entire fight...

So yeah... Obviously they are not bad and I am the best tank, who is liofa or woeler anyways when I am carrying these sh*tbags? I must be the real MVP.

disintegr8

Valderis wrote: »

Dude at first glance your post sounds like "dear noobs, quit wasting my *** and git gud"

but...

This thread is shedding light on something ive been noticing since One Tamriel..

A giant chasm of player skill and experience, between the long standing community and the newcomers.... to a point that we are seeing a "new generation" of players who have very little understanding of the game, whereas the rest of us toiled through challenging game content and devloped our playmanship THROUGH GUILDS.

Im not unearthing the CP argument here, BUT in the specific case of Group Finder, it needs a CP range limiter, where you can select the minimum CP for your group members... unfortunately too few tanks/healers for this to be effective.

TLDR - Join a guild and learn through community fellowship.

I agree than One Tamriel has a lot to answer for with regards to players reaching high CP and not having a clue. However I disagree that people should have to join a guild to learn how to play. I also agree with another poster, @Jameliel , that you should not have to look outside of the game to learn how to play - to get better, yes, but to complete dungeons, no.

Once upon a time, in a land far far away, when people camped outside dungeons looking for people to run them with, people were friendly, helpful and communicated through group (voice) chat. These days everyone uses group finder, nobody is in group chat, and most people just want a wham, bam, thank you ma'am, run through the dungeon.

Maybe the solution is that experienced players stop using dungeon finder. You want a speed run, organize your own group, you want daily random rewards, get your own group and then use dungeon finder, you want to be sure everyone knows what they are doing, join a guild.

I understand that new players will not learn anything but that won't be your issue - you won't be running with them.

Kel

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

Hes done it so much. Why should he take a few minuets (apparently that's bending over backwards, the horror) to help? Nope, that player is lazy for trying to up his game...like that makes any sense whatsoever.
Players like you are why new players don't give this game a chance. You are toxic.

A few minutes PER OCCASION that someone doesn't know what they're doing can add up to 30+ minutes per dungeon run. I have sat through MANY dungeons teaching people things instead of just kicking them and getting someone competent from the get-go. I'm not willing to make that sacrifice every day anymore.

You continue to pug, then you get what you get. If you're not willing to speak up and maybe help someone understand, then you definitely deserve all the frustration you get.
Go to your friends or guild if you want a run free of the things you're talking about. If not, you roll the dice. And when you roll the dice, it doesn't always work out the way you want.
You get what you get in a pug. It's this way in every single game. You take the good with the bad. If you're not able to handle that, get your own group.
Problem solved.

fierackas

I joined a pick up group earlier which wiped at the first boss, Leader asked if everyone knew the mechanics, I was the only one to answer and said no. I was hoping/expecting to be told at this point - instead I was unceremoniously kicked (I'm dps so don't consider myself as critical as a tank or healer). I'm not sure how new players like myself are supposed to learn - I certainly don't have the time to read up on every dungeon that might pop up on a random queue!

disintegr8

fierackas wrote: »

I joined a pick up group earlier which wiped at the first boss, Leader asked if everyone knew the mechanics, I was the only one to answer and said no. I was hoping/expecting to be told at this point - instead I was unceremoniously kicked (I'm dps so don't consider myself as critical as a tank or healer). I'm not sure how new players like myself are supposed to learn - I certainly don't have the time to read up on every dungeon that might pop up on a random queue!

Unusual, must have been a vet dungeon. Most people don't think tanks and healers are important in normal dungeons.

Ragnarock41

disintegr8 wrote: »

fierackas wrote: »

I joined a pick up group earlier which wiped at the first boss, Leader asked if everyone knew the mechanics, I was the only one to answer and said no. I was hoping/expecting to be told at this point - instead I was unceremoniously kicked (I'm dps so don't consider myself as critical as a tank or healer). I'm not sure how new players like myself are supposed to learn - I certainly don't have the time to read up on every dungeon that might pop up on a random queue!

Unusual, must have been a vet dungeon. Most people don't think tanks and healers are important in normal dungeons.

even in basic vet dungeons you can just go in with 4 DDs and faceroll most of them. vigor and blade cloak + shieldstacking is all you need to survive.

Still kicking a DD because he doesn't know the mechanics is just ridicilous, unless the group is going for no death run it is just prejudice.

I remember beating vDSA on my first try, people telling me that I would never pass it and should try it on normal, and our group of newbies just passed it on first try.

Aesthier

At the end of the day...


YOU are only responsible for your OWN enjoyment.


While it would be nice if players with the experience would teach players without, it is ultimately NOT their responsibility. They play for their own enjoyment not yours.

While it would be nice if players without experience would, spend hours researching every dungeon before setting foot in it bring at least 700 CP for easy mode, and not ask to complete any quests, however again ultimately YOUR enjoyment is NOT their responsibility.


Want to improve the community?

Then offer assistance IN GAME instead of arguing how lazy everybody is except yourself in the forums.


That is directed at everyone (including myself) in this thread and not just the OP.

Slick_007

if you want to have fun with dungeons kicking people, go into a sacrement, join a group and then have the other person disband the group.

Ragnarock41

Aesthier wrote: »

At the end of the day...


YOU are only responsible for your OWN enjoyment.


While it would be nice if players with the experience would teach players without, it is ultimately NOT their responsibility. They play for their own enjoyment not yours.

While it would be nice if players without experience would, spend hours researching every dungeon before setting foot in it bring at least 700 CP for easy mode, and not ask to complete any quests, however again ultimately YOUR enjoyment is NOT their responsibility.


Want to improve the community?

Then offer assistance IN GAME instead of arguing how lazy everybody is except yourself in the forums.


That is directed at everyone (including myself) in this thread and not just the OP.

again I find it hard to understand why everyone is so triggered to the OP.

Do you know what happens to those bad DDs?

They get kicked, or shouted at, %80 of the time.

This is an issue for them, not for us.

Merlin13KAGL

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

The timer is there so that the activity finder doesn't put people in dungeons that are finished. When you go in solo you never set it up to be found. Is this bad design? Yes, but the problem would disappear overnight if people would just stop leaving group the second the final boss dies and just travel out first.

No, the timer is there so if you get kicked, you don't get the option to linger in the instance, preventing your replacement from showing up.

Last man in the instance, wanting to loot or finish off quest stuff isn't queuing for replacements, so they're not in the RGF queue at all. As such, no one's going to queue into a completed instance.

There is zero justifiable reason not to let someone stay in a finished instance as long as they like. Once they log or leave, the instance can be cleared up.

This was never an issue when you actually had to physically arrive at the dungeon. You didn't leave until you actually left.

Anotherone773

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

The timer is there so that the activity finder doesn't put people in dungeons that are finished.

No the timer is there because they did a bad job at coding the game. Every other game ive played with dungeons and group finders, you can stay in as long as you want even by yourself. And it doesnt put people in finished dungeons. You have to actually request the group finder to fill a spot. It doesnt just see 3 people in a dungeon and automatically fill it. Or are you confusing dungeons with BGS?

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

At a certain point, people that end up in difficult DLC dungeons cause so much widespread inconvenience that it's only the responsible thing to do to NOT QUEUE FOR THOSE DUNGEONS, or to leave immediately if you queue for random vet and it puts you in there if you are not ready for it. Take a little responsibility for yourself and consideration for others.

The only people it seems to inconvenience are the elitists, which in my opinion, are an insignificant and toxic part of the player base. Us filthy casuals tend to have a laugh when we wipe or attempt to figure out what we did wrong. I remember spending about an hour on a single boss as me and other filthy game ruining casuals attempted to figure out the boss mechanics and then through a process of trial and error figured it out and coordinated enough to accomplish it. It was extremely satisfying not to have to "cheat" and look up the answer. And it was even more satisfying we didnt have a crybaby elitist complaining about us "not knowing mechanics" and " not doing enough DPS".

Also, FYI, im not your manservant. Im not here for YOUR convenience. I have as much right to run that content as you do regardless of what you may think, I paid for the game and ALL of its content, not just the content you THINK im worthy of, so get off your high horse.

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

"I'm not going to study to play a game" Then why are you going into the hardest content, basically with the intent to inconvenience everyone else there? If someone comes into my group that has no idea what to do, I'm voting to kick. I've wasted hours of my time guiding people through already, I'm sick of it, I'm not going to hold everybody's hand for them anymore.

Ill say this slowly so you understand. BECAUSE....ITS...A....GAME. But dont worry i wont vote to kick you out of our group for being an ass. Ill let you carry us until you rage quit...it will give me a good chuckle. I like people who rage in videos games. Got them all the time in Eve. Its more entertaining then the game.

As i said,the solution is simple: Either dont join a PUG and make a few friends and run with them. Or accept the fact that if you join a PUG, your going to run with normal civilized humans that may be subpar in their divine powers of gaming. Its what happens when you mingle with us mere mortals.

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

The game literally does remember your last used setting. Set your group difficulty to normal and then watch how, almost by some kind of witchcraft, you will never enter a veteran dungeon without manually entering for one. If people had the brain capacity to look at the words on their screen, they would not make that mistake. I have NEVER made that mistake and I've been playing since console release. Again, RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOURSELF.

No it doesnt. Do you even play this game or do you only pay attention to it when your cheesing dummies and showing your awesome in dungeons? And yes the default for both random and specified in the dungeon finder is vet. You have to change it in the drop down and in specified all vet versions or at the top so you have to collapse it or scroll down 2 screens to get to the normal dungeons. Its actually pretty easy to miss if you dont pay close attention to it.

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

"CP level is mostly irrelevant" This is a stupid myth and it needs to stop spreading. As a healer, I know the difference when multiple people get hit by the same attacks and the person 300 CP down loses an extra 25% to the same hit, causing a death.

I find it really weird that you dont understand any game mechanics in this game but boss mechanics. Its almost like your oblivious to how anything works outside of youtube boss fights, articles on dungeon mechanics, or the build( complete with rotation) you googled and cloned.

I also heal in dungeons. The last 2 out 3 dungeons i got a higher cp character in a normal dungeon. One was Cp 4xx and the other was cp 5xx. They were the squishiest people in the dungeon. I could hardly dps because i had to constantly heal them. It was frustrating. It wasnt even a hard dungeon. It was fungal grotto 1 both times. Meanwhile the low levels in the dungeon i could just "top off" Good thing too, because those same high CP choose to stand at max distance instead of in the big glowing circle of healing. I mean, i expect a level 20 not to know to stand in the bloody circle of healing but a CP400 plus? Come on.

ironically they are the same ones that, i believe it the last boss that does the AOE centered on him... well they choose to dodge roll out of it except all they do is dodge roll out of the circle of healing and into pure red. If they would just stand there i can easily heal through it. I mean if your healer isnt bothering to move out of the big red circle apparently they are pretty confident they can just heal through it, amiright?

CP doesnt matter near as much as common sense. The biggest problems with elitist is they over think and over complicate everything and then expect people to play on their level.

BTW there are a lot of reasons why one character is squishier than another and it has a lot more to do with build than it does with CP. For example, people who min/max things tend to be very squishy as they dump all their resources into obtaining maximum DPS making healing into a hard job and then complain when they die. Its not my fault you cant take a hit and i honestly see that more from high level players than i do from low levels. Because high levels are all about the dps so they can fit in with their little raid cliches that think the answer to every mechanic is DPS it down as fast possible.

I find that level 20 tank who says " its my first time tanking a dungeon" in his green/blue mismatched gear and is doing the quest so obviously never even been in this dungeon to be easier than that CP 5xx sorcerer in gold end game gear to heal. And that CP5xx is usually more of pain in the ass because he thinks he is god and can just aggro the entire room and dps it down real fast....and then doesnt and nearly dies while im chasing him around the room as he frantically kites the mobs. Then he complains about the tank not holding aggro( even though he started attacking before the tank who just made it into the room as he was doing the quest.

Anotherone773

Elitism is mental problem. I have a nephew who is an elitist( he doesnt play this game) but he fits the stereotype almost perfectly. He is in his early 20s, lives with his parents. He is going to college part time for video games and he thinks he is superior to everyone else.


All he does all day, when not in school, is sit in his room and play video games. He has never had a hard time getting a girlfriend but cant keep them because he doesnt know how to interact with humans outside of a video game. Inside a video game he is constantly cursing at people and calling them stupid, telling his team mates that he will kill them( in game) if they dont L2P.

If you talk to him outside of the game, he is socially awkward. He also think he is superior to all other people. He thinks that people cant " think on his level" ( he is a smart person but not that smart) and sees regular people as inferior to him. He doesnt understand that he is the abnormal one and some of the things he says outside of the game and even in it border on psycho serial killer waiting to snap. To him, he is completely normal and everyone else is the problem.

Playing video games for 8-12 hours or more a day every day for years did that to him. He never learned to function properly in a real society and to interact with real humans. He spent all of his time being the best in the games he plays, but outside of those games he is a completely dysfunctional human...almost like a wild animal. You dont know if he is going to sniff your hand or have it for lunch.

I imagine a lot of elitists are that way. They become so engrossed in a game, they forget how to be human. The only thing that matters is being the best in the game. I see more as a problem now than i did years ago. Years ago parents made their kids go out and do things, made them interact with other humans. Now it seems video games have become the default parenting device, entertaining a child for hours everyday so the parents dont have to parent.

It has led to people who are dysfunctional and cant understand why the rest of the world just wont L2P and "gitgud", meanwhile the rest of the world thinks if they applied the same dedication to life they do to that game, they might actually have a life that isnt entirely made of pixels.

Just some food for thought.

Aesthier

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

again I find it hard to understand why everyone is so triggered to the OP.

Do you know what happens to those bad DDs?

They get kicked, or shouted at, %80 of the time.

This is an issue for them, not for us.

But it is an issue and here is why...

The game requires fresh blood, ESO currently lacks a good transition from easy to hard, that means that ultimately those who have reached a place they can do hard content are faced with a lack of others who can do hard content. If not then complaints like the OP's would not exist.

So those new players come in and attempt new content only to die a lot (because let's face it that's what you do when you are new) and get hammered by the "wonderfully competent community". After that many of them just leave the game...Whats the point if anyone who could help only hinders?


So yes a shrinking player base IS a problem for all players.


Does Zos have the ability to fix this? There are some tools that Zos could implement that might help on their side of the equation, however, Zos does not control the community portion, we as players do.


"Were right you are wrong" threads do nothing for the community but instead pass blame for all the games ills on "others" with no self-responsibility, from both sides.


Trust me I ain triggered yet. Just mildly ammused.

S1ipperyJim

Solution 2 overlooks that some people quite rightly want to experience the dungeon themselves first rather than watch a video on it. Also Alcast doesn't have guides on all the dungeons

Dapper Dinosaur

I don't have time to post a lengthy response right now, but for everyone with the tired old "just don't PuG then", it's literally my only option. I am in 3 PVE guilds, and NOBODY is looking to attempt the challenges on these new dungeons yet because they're so hard, so my only option to try and get a group together is PuG repeatedly until I see people that can do their jobs and asking them if they want to try the challenges now or at least some time later.

knaveofengland

many valid issues you have posted with the points raised

1 ,do think 30 secs to 1 minute would be enough , but do think eso could have a pop up window with some brief points , to explain how the dungeons works , and have it like a option to opt out , all would know how it works , would aslo be a idea for experienced players to explain a few things as well .

2 a player can join any dungeon , this is not good do think the dungeons should have set levels like normall any level , normall ll dungeon ,player level could be like cp 50 .
veteran dungeon could be like 160 cp , and vetern ll dungeon could be like cp 300 .

greylox

You shouldn't have to go onto the web to read a guide just to know how to do a dungeon. The game should tell you but it fails hard at that.

Tried vet Scalecaller at the weekend and the last boss is a joke, you need reflexes of a ninja and luck etc to get that thing done. Gave up and won't be trying that again. I really should learn and stop doing dlc vets.

sevomd69

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

You want to be a true community? Take your nose out of the air, stop throwing out insults and lend a helping hand

Think about that next time you complain about a pug group. Instead of being annoyed and a ass, explain the mechanics, call out the things that are gonna happen. Ask people about there character give some advice. You will see that people are exctually eager to learn if you treat them nicely.

I've already done this literally hundreds of times for a myriad of dungeons and am simply tired of doing it. Why am I the one that has to be punished for bending over backwards to cater to lazy/inept players? Why should I continue to waste hundreds of hours of time to explain it all for the thousandth time, or wait while someone else does? Why can't those awful players just do the right thing and prepare themselves properly for the extremely difficult content that they just signed themselves up for, or better yet, not sign up for it?

I have better things to do with my time than to explain the proper method for dealing with (using an example here) Velideth's Shadow Sense attack for the millionth time.

Why? Because you chose to PUG...that's why...

Saucy_Jack

Wait a second.

For those having trouble with mechanics: didn't there used to be an addon that listed out the mechanics for each dungeon boss? I sincerely remember this being a thing at one point. Why not just run that?

For those who complain about newer players not knowing the mechanics, why not just show some gosh-darn common courtesy?

There; dungeons are fixed. I win. Everyone go home.

Liferefugee

Courtesy? In game (and increasingly IRL) this seems to be a lost concept by many. If only people could put some points into this trait and make the game a better place. Do as you like to the NPCs.