Many of this game's "community" problems could be solved by not being incredibly lazy.

Dapper Dinosaur

Problem 1: People trying to complete quests in dungeons but the whole group leaves too early and they get kicked out.

Solution A: Zenimax re-codes it so people have more time to finish the quest.
Solution B: People travel out of the dungeon manually, THEN leave the group. This gives questers at least a full additional minute to complete it. Problem solved.

Problem 2: PuGs are completely awful at dungeons/trials and cause uncountable hours' worth of delays to everyone else they play with.

Solution: LOOK UP A DAMN GUIDE FOR ANY CONTENT YOU HAVEN'T PLAYED YET. It should take you less than 20 minutes to find an Alcast guide or something and read it from start to finish. This will help you learn mechanics without costing everyone else massive delays.

Problem 3 (ties into problem 2): People are entering vet DLC dungeons at FAR too low of a level.

Solution: Grind some more CP and follow instructions from Problem 2. Simple. You don't NEED to run vet Cradle the second you hit champion 200, nor will you ever. NO group is going to sit there and let you bog them down like that, because you WILL bog them down.

Just the slightest consideration for others from the playerbase would solve all of these huge issues. Zenimax doesn't even have to do anything, these problems are ours to fix.

Silver_Strider

1) Just give dungeons a 5 minute timer after completion, regardless if the group stays or not. Some people actually enjoy reading dialogue and a minute is hardly an improvement to the 10 seconds or so before the dungeon kicks you.

2) For the sake of argument, let's assume that Dungeons are NOT end game content, DLC dungeons or otherwise. They should be reasonably manageable without a guide being required. ESO dungeons however, are a** backwards in their design. The normal mode is insultingly easy that don't prepare you properly for Vet and the vet modes sometimes requires raid tier reflexes, god tier DPS or both and 1 f*** up usually leads to a wipe. Some of these DLC dungeons could easily be trials with how much s*** goes on in half of them. Might as well advertise these DLC dungeons as 4 man trials instead if they're going to be designed for end game players anyways.

3) CP is just a number. I've seen just as many awful max CP players as I have low CP players that I totally ignore the number and look at how they play. If they have even a basic understanding of their role, screw the number by their name. It might not be flawless but it rarely ever is with PUGs anyway that I can't help but laugh at people that say CP is so important that it circumvents player skill.

You're right that the issue is laziness, you're wrong on the whom though.

Rungar

if anyone remembers the old dragonslayer game from the arcade many many many years ago they will remember the mode of that game was to make all the right moves at the right time or death.

This is what this game is becoming.That's certainly ok for some content but it seems more and more zos has no tricks up their sleeve regarding making challenging content other than giving the boss one shot powers. You have one second to move here or you die and are a horrible horrible player. lol.

TheNuminous1

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

Problem 1: People trying to complete quests in dungeons but the whole group leaves too early and they get kicked out.

Solution A: Zenimax re-codes it so people have more time to finish the quest.
Solution B: People travel out of the dungeon manually, THEN leave the group. This gives questers at least a full additional minute to complete it. Problem solved.

Problem 2: PuGs are completely awful at dungeons/trials and cause uncountable hours' worth of delays to everyone else they play with.

Solution: LOOK UP A DAMN GUIDE FOR ANY CONTENT YOU HAVEN'T PLAYED YET. It should take you less than 20 minutes to find an Alcast guide or something and read it from start to finish. This will help you learn mechanics without costing everyone else massive delays.

Problem 3 (ties into problem 2): People are entering vet DLC dungeons at FAR too low of a level.

Solution: Grind some more CP and follow instructions from Problem 2. Simple. You don't NEED to run vet Cradle the second you hit champion 200, nor will you ever. NO group is going to sit there and let you bog them down like that, because you WILL bog them down.

Just the slightest consideration for others from the playerbase would solve all of these huge issues. Zenimax doesn't even have to do anything, these problems are ours to fix.

so when my husband completed all the dlc vet dungeons on his cp 200 that was just make believe? no no. im positive that actually happened and was completely possible.

Inhuman003

I think story mode needs to be added just like normal mode and veteran mode. Story mode is for those who want to know the lore or want to listen to the quest, instead of just rushing in the dungeon.

DieAlteHexe

Inhuman003 wrote: »

I think story mode needs to be added just like normal mode and veteran mode. Story mode is for those who want to know the lore or want to listen to the quest, instead of just rushing in the dungeon.

This mode has worked out well in other MMOs. There will always be those for whom the story is the thing and they do irritate the bejabbers out of those for whom it isn't.

Has my vote.

Anotherone773

1) Why does there need to be a timer at all? If i solo a dungeon, i can stay in it all day. Why do i get kicked just because 3 people are in group?

2) Its a PUG, what do you expect? If you dont like how PUGs operate, dont use them. Make a friend...and then two more and then run vet content with them.

Im not going to "study" to play a game. Besides lets look at this from a different perspective. The first groups to conquer that content didnt have a guide. They didnt have some cheat that told them what to do and when. They had to figure it out on their own. Maybe the rest of us want to do the same thing? Or are they special and we are just lemming scrubs that should just robotically play as we are told?

Here is how most of the gaming population learns to do things:

" Oh thats causing damage i should move"
" Ouch, he one shot me, i need to try to get out of the red before that happens"
" Oh crap, boss went completely psycho serial killer!"...." Oh crap, did it again.".... " Oh crap did it again" ..." Ok i need to kill him before he goes all nuts."

Instead of wanting people to spend all their time studying the game( most of which they will forget anyway especially older people who have far more important things on their mind than trying to remember what they read or watched on youtube about how to defeat 5 bosses in a dungeon) maybe....

just maybe....

You should take 3 minutes out of your precious day to type in group chat the boss mechanics, if it bothers you that much.. Or we can wipe for the next 3 hours....i dont care... i have a full stack of gems and a half stack of repair kits.

3) part of the reason is poor group finder design. I did a poll recently in which about 3/4 of the respondents said they accidentally ended up in a vet dungeon when they meant to queue for a normal. This is because at a certain level whether you are prepared or not, the group finder automatically sticks you on group content and every time you queue you have to select normal dungeon. Many people forget or expect the game to remember their last used setting.

As a low CP character in crappy gear, ive had to carry higher levels through a dungeon. I dont know if they genuinely werent that good or if they were just phoning it in. Ive also seen some below 200 CP characters that did exceptionally well on a run. You would think they had been playing that character for 8 hours a day every day for a year. There are people lower level than me and probably in worse gear that are better than me. CP level is mostly irrelevant and has nothing to do with personal skill which is the most important thing and the game cant judge and determine that.

Conclusion: Group finder, dungeons and probably even trials need some love. That falls on the devs. Running with "subpar" PUG group in which a run might take 30 minutes or 3 hours...that is totally a players choice and if a player expects PUGs to be great at the content at any point in time, then they are just being extremely naive and obviously lack experience at PUGing and fail to understand the whole concept of a PUG.

DHale

I am a long time player. This may be one of the best posts ever.

Narvuntien

A game should be self contained and not require someone else to do the work to teach people to play it.

Either it should be a simple improvement of basic principles you can learn from easier content, which it clearly is not because the jumps from questing to normal's to vet are just so large. Or the game is going to need to give proper IN GAME information on how to play, give us a tutorial that teaches people how to do the MMO roles. There are a lot of people that don't come from an MMO background here they can't be expected to know what a rotation is and what the responsibilities of a tank.. (well healer is kind of self evident)

Grinding is terrible, whats that you have to have no fun before you can have fun... ooooor you can just have fun the whole time. Now I agree with another one, dungeons and trials and everything needs to be labeled with a difficulty level so that people can have an understanding what they are getting themselves into.

Dapper Dinosaur

The timer is there so that the activity finder doesn't put people in dungeons that are finished. When you go in solo you never set it up to be found. Is this bad design? Yes, but the problem would disappear overnight if people would just stop leaving group the second the final boss dies and just travel out first.

At a certain point, people that end up in difficult DLC dungeons cause so much widespread inconvenience that it's only the responsible thing to do to NOT QUEUE FOR THOSE DUNGEONS, or to leave immediately if you queue for random vet and it puts you in there if you are not ready for it. Take a little responsibility for yourself and consideration for others.

"I'm not going to study to play a game" Then why are you going into the hardest content, basically with the intent to inconvenience everyone else there? If someone comes into my group that has no idea what to do, I'm voting to kick. I've wasted hours of my time guiding people through already, I'm sick of it, I'm not going to hold everybody's hand for them anymore.

The game literally does remember your last used setting. Set your group difficulty to normal and then watch how, almost by some kind of witchcraft, you will never enter a veteran dungeon without manually entering for one. If people had the brain capacity to look at the words on their screen, they would not make that mistake. I have NEVER made that mistake and I've been playing since console release. Again, RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOURSELF.

"CP level is mostly irrelevant" This is a stupid myth and it needs to stop spreading. As a healer, I know the difference when multiple people get hit by the same attacks and the person 300 CP down loses an extra 25% to the same hit, causing a death.

Kel

Many of this community's problems could be solved if it acted like a true community instead of everyone thinking they know what's best for everyone else and stop trying to be better than everyone else.
You want to be a true community? Take your nose out of the air, stop throwing out insults and lend a helping hand.
Or keep being condescending. Up to you I guess.

Edit: Oh, it's a Dapper Dinosaur post. Really need to start looking at who posts these.
Shouldn't have expected anything else.

drkfrontiers

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

Problem 2: PuGs are completely awful at dungeons/trials and cause uncountable hours' worth of delays to everyone else they play with.

This is why I do not have undaunted on my radar. Community is really toxic about how they treat new players.

Inhuman003

If there was a story mode we don't need a timer we just need an on automatic lock to story you can't run to the next group of enemies or the next boss.

MTijhuis

In my opinion what's wrong with the community is that as soon as a player hit CP500+ they think they rule the world and forget any proper manners.

We have all had a teacher that helped us learn the game, if it's a other player or a few guide on the internet. We were all proper noobs once.

Think about that next time you complain about a pug group. Instead of being annoyed and a ass, explain the mechanics, call out the things that are gonna happen. Ask people about there character give some advice. You will see that people are exctually eager to learn if you treat them nicely.

Dapper Dinosaur

You want to be a true community? Take your nose out of the air, stop throwing out insults and lend a helping hand

Think about that next time you complain about a pug group. Instead of being annoyed and a ass, explain the mechanics, call out the things that are gonna happen. Ask people about there character give some advice. You will see that people are exctually eager to learn if you treat them nicely.

I've already done this literally hundreds of times for a myriad of dungeons and am simply tired of doing it. Why am I the one that has to be punished for bending over backwards to cater to lazy/inept players? Why should I continue to waste hundreds of hours of time to explain it all for the thousandth time, or wait while someone else does? Why can't those awful players just do the right thing and prepare themselves properly for the extremely difficult content that they just signed themselves up for, or better yet, not sign up for it?

I have better things to do with my time than to explain the proper method for dealing with (using an example here) Velideth's Shadow Sense attack for the millionth time.

FrancisCrawford

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

The timer is there so that the activity finder doesn't put people in dungeons that are finished. When you go in solo you never set it up to be found. Is this bad design? Yes, but the problem would disappear overnight if people would just stop leaving group the second the final boss dies and just travel out first.

The problem would disappear overnight without causing a new one if two changes were made:

• The timer was abolished.
• A group that had finished the last boss fight was disabled from adding new group members.

Both of those would seem easy to code even for ZoS.

Sixty5

Only issue I have to point out is that there is no way to exclude stuff from the dungeon finder.

I can run all vet content pretty confidently with my buddies, but I'm not carry noobs through vCoS level.
And then you have Scrubs-McNoob who did vCoA 1 that one time, and he is keen to try some more vet dungeons out.
Neither of us want to be in vCoS, but if we own the dlc, or are subbed, we don't have a choice.

Beyond that, I tend to agree with what you are saying.

WakeYourGhost

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

"CP level is mostly irrelevant" This is a stupid myth and it needs to stop spreading. As a healer, I know the difference when multiple people get hit by the same attacks and the person 300 CP down loses an extra 25% to the same hit, causing a death.

As a Fellow healer, I must say you are a funny as hell.
I was doing a handful of Vet dungeons with my guild recently, grinding gear, lookin’ for shiny stuff to wear. I had one CP 400, a CP 200, myself, and one open slot for a random. Busy day, couldn’t fill every slot.
Like magic, we get a max CP.
400 is tank, 200 is DPS, max is DPS.
200 never died. Max wasted so many Soul Gems at critical moments.

That’s not even the first time I’ve seen the ones with the highest CP eat dirt regularly.
Spending tedious hours grinding out CP mindlessly can’t ever cover a skill gap with raw numbers in PvE.
If a person is on point, they will make my job easy.
If they have the talent of a skeleton in a box, they will end up floored no matter how big their numbers are.

Valderis

Dude at first glance your post sounds like "dear noobs, quit wasting my *** and git gud"

but...

This thread is shedding light on something ive been noticing since One Tamriel..

A giant chasm of player skill and experience, between the long standing community and the newcomers.... to a point that we are seeing a "new generation" of players who have very little understanding of the game, whereas the rest of us toiled through challenging game content and devloped our playmanship THROUGH GUILDS.

Im not unearthing the CP argument here, BUT in the specific case of Group Finder, it needs a CP range limiter, where you can select the minimum CP for your group members... unfortunately too few tanks/healers for this to be effective.

TLDR - Join a guild and learn through community fellowship.

Doctordarkspawn

Silver_Strider wrote: »

1) Just give dungeons a 5 minute timer after completion, regardless if the group stays or not. Some people actually enjoy reading dialogue and a minute is hardly an improvement to the 10 seconds or so before the dungeon kicks you.

2) For the sake of argument, let's assume that Dungeons are NOT end game content, DLC dungeons or otherwise. They should be reasonably manageable without a guide being required. ESO dungeons however, are a** backwards in their design. The normal mode is insultingly easy that don't prepare you properly for Vet and the vet modes sometimes requires raid tier reflexes, god tier DPS or both and 1 f*** up usually leads to a wipe. Some of these DLC dungeons could easily be trials with how much s*** goes on in half of them. Might as advertise these DLC dungeons as 4 man trials instead if they're going to designed for end game players anyways.

3) CP is just a number. I've seen just as many awful max CP players as I have low CP players that I totally ignore the number and look at how they play. If they have even a basic understanding of their role, screw the number by their name. It might not be flawless but it rarely ever is with PUGs anyway that I can't help but laugh at people that say CP is so important that it circumvents player skill.

You're right that the issue is laziness, you're wrong on the whom though.

Couldn't have said it better.

Zeni has the problem. Not us.

Doctordarkspawn

Valderis wrote: »

Dude at first glance your post sounds like "dear noobs, quit wasting my *** and git gud"

but...

This thread is shedding light on something ive been noticing since One Tamriel..

A giant chasm of player skill and experience, between the long standing community and the newcomers.... to a point that we are seeing a "new generation" of players who have very little understanding of the game, whereas the rest of us toiled through challenging game content and devloped our playmanship THROUGH GUILDS.

Im not unearthing the CP argument here, BUT in the specific case of Group Finder, it needs a CP range limiter, where you can select the minimum CP for your group members... unfortunately too few tanks/healers for this to be effective.

TLDR - Join a guild and learn through community fellowship.

Community fellowship? -My arse-.

This is one of the most toxic communities I've ever seen, dont expect people to give you much more than a URL to Alcast's site and tell you to follow that guide. This community cant be bothered to teach, nor can it be bothered to train.

Kel

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

You want to be a true community? Take your nose out of the air, stop throwing out insults and lend a helping hand

Think about that next time you complain about a pug group. Instead of being annoyed and a ass, explain the mechanics, call out the things that are gonna happen. Ask people about there character give some advice. You will see that people are exctually eager to learn if you treat them nicely.

I've already done this literally hundreds of times for a myriad of dungeons and am simply tired of doing it. Why am I the one that has to be punished for bending over backwards to cater to lazy/inept players? Why should I continue to waste hundreds of hours of time to explain it all for the thousandth time, or wait while someone else does? Why can't those awful players just do the right thing and prepare themselves properly for the extremely difficult content that they just signed themselves up for, or better yet, not sign up for it?

I have better things to do with my time than to explain the proper method for dealing with (using an example here) Velideth's Shadow Sense attack for the millionth time.

Then why are you asking things from the community if you are not willing to help the community? Why should anyone listen to your wishes if you aren't willing to help? This means you are putting yourself above the community you are trying to lecture to.
If this is too much for you to deal with, and that's obviously the case, maybe it's time to look elsewhere. Because you seem to not really enjoy this game...can't seem to find any fun in it. Your posts are just complaint after complaint after complaint about the players you share this game with. So you try to take other players enjoyment away. Some players like going into dungeons with no knowledge of them. That is thier fun.
The dungeon finder isn't your personal tool, and if you don't like the way it operates, find some friends. Take your own advise and prepare yourself for what you are going to deal with if you choose to use dungeon finder, or just don't use it.
I mean, heaven forbid if Dapper Dinosaur gets a dungeon in dungeon finder with a player who's never done it before...heaven forbid he tries to help that person. Hes done it so much. Why should he take a few minuets (apparently that's bending over backwards, the horror) to help? Nope, that player is lazy for trying to up his game...like that makes any sense whatsoever.
Players like you are why new players don't give this game a chance. You are toxic.

WakeYourGhost

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Valderis wrote: »

Dude at first glance your post sounds like "dear noobs, quit wasting my *** and git gud"

but...

This thread is shedding light on something ive been noticing since One Tamriel..

A giant chasm of player skill and experience, between the long standing community and the newcomers.... to a point that we are seeing a "new generation" of players who have very little understanding of the game, whereas the rest of us toiled through challenging game content and devloped our playmanship THROUGH GUILDS.

Im not unearthing the CP argument here, BUT in the specific case of Group Finder, it needs a CP range limiter, where you can select the minimum CP for your group members... unfortunately too few tanks/healers for this to be effective.

TLDR - Join a guild and learn through community fellowship.

Community fellowship? -My arse-.

This is one of the most toxic communities I've ever seen, dont expect people to give you much more than a URL to Alcast's site and tell you to follow that guide. This community cant be bothered to teach, nor can it be bothered to train.

My guild may be an exception-to-the-rule kinda thing, but we teach and help. We organize guiod events to help peoppe learn content and basic game necessities like marketeering, leveling, item and gear hunting, skyshard and lorebook hunting, dungeons, and trials. We’re sharing info, helping one another, and I’ve even shared my Thief routes. ...was nervous about that one, but it worked out.

Of course, I also see Zone filled with [X guild - hijacked a Run / Kicked me because I’m new to the game / Set my camel on fire / has a hostile abusive leader].
I’ve also seen a lot of toxic players claim those things when they are not true.

Mixed bag, I suppose.

Kel

Valderis wrote: »

Dude at first glance your post sounds like "dear noobs, quit wasting my *** and git gud"

but...

This thread is shedding light on something ive been noticing since One Tamriel..

A giant chasm of player skill and experience, between the long standing community and the newcomers.... to a point that we are seeing a "new generation" of players who have very little understanding of the game, whereas the rest of us toiled through challenging game content and devloped our playmanship THROUGH GUILDS.

Im not unearthing the CP argument here, BUT in the specific case of Group Finder, it needs a CP range limiter, where you can select the minimum CP for your group members... unfortunately too few tanks/healers for this to be effective.

TLDR - Join a guild and learn through community fellowship.

Sorry, dungeon finder is for everyone. And yes, that includes less skilled players. For some, that is how they learn.
But you're right about one thing. If you don't want to deal with dungeon finder, join a guild.
You can have the clean effective runs you want THROUGH GUILDS.

Jade1986

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

Inhuman003 wrote: »

I think story mode needs to be added just like normal mode and veteran mode. Story mode is for those who want to know the lore or want to listen to the quest, instead of just rushing in the dungeon.

This mode has worked out well in other MMOs. There will always be those for whom the story is the thing and they do irritate the bejabbers out of those for whom it isn't.

Has my vote.

The only thing that I would say there, is they need to do it exactly like other games and take the drops out of the story mode versions. Keep the mechanics, but make it a quarter as difficult as normal mode. So people can learn the mechanics, or not.

Grimm13

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

Problem 3 (ties into problem 2): People are entering vet DLC dungeons at FAR too low of a level.

Solution: Grind some more CP and follow instructions from Problem 2. Simple. You don't NEED to run vet Cradle the second you hit champion 200, nor will you ever. NO group is going to sit there and let you bog them down like that, because you WILL bog them down.

Just the slightest consideration for others from the playerbase would solve all of these huge issues. Zenimax doesn't even have to do anything, these problems are ours to fix.

There is already a level limit in order to open the dungeon. People are following the requirement as the game forces that. It's just that you are unhappy with the set levels.

Once you qualify for Vet Dungeons it is the default for randoms instead of Normal mode. Players are quick to que, the system does not always adjust properly to change from the default.

Where is the player consideration to double check that all knows the mechanic before the boss fight begins. Not all guides are equal, you want to set the standard of what guides they have to study? Not all reading comprehensions are the same. A few minutes of consideration to explain to save 20 -30 minutes of frustration seems like a good investment.

Dapper Dinosaur

Hes done it so much. Why should he take a few minuets (apparently that's bending over backwards, the horror) to help? Nope, that player is lazy for trying to up his game...like that makes any sense whatsoever.
Players like you are why new players don't give this game a chance. You are toxic.

A few minutes PER OCCASION that someone doesn't know what they're doing can add up to 30+ minutes per dungeon run. I have sat through MANY dungeons teaching people things instead of just kicking them and getting someone competent from the get-go. I'm not willing to make that sacrifice every day anymore.

A player is not "trying to up his game" if he walks into a place with no knowledge of it. TRYING to up his game would be using that pink squishy thing inside his head to read about the place he's about to enter so he doesn't waste everyone elses' time learning it as he goes.

Jameliel

No-one should ever be forced to search outside sources, simply to run a dungeon. ESO is way too convoluted. Too much time spent on trying to be different, instead of truly being creative and fun.

DieAlteHexe

Jade1986 wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

Inhuman003 wrote: »

I think story mode needs to be added just like normal mode and veteran mode. Story mode is for those who want to know the lore or want to listen to the quest, instead of just rushing in the dungeon.

This mode has worked out well in other MMOs. There will always be those for whom the story is the thing and they do irritate the bejabbers out of those for whom it isn't.

Has my vote.

The only thing that I would say there, is they need to do it exactly like other games and take the drops out of the story mode versions. Keep the mechanics, but make it a quarter as difficult as normal mode. So people can learn the mechanics, or not.

That's usually how it goes, yes. Some of them give the equivalent of greens whereas "normal" would be blues and on up the levels. Often, although not always, those for whom story mode is the thing, aren't all that into BiS. As one of them, I'm good with whatever keeps me alive doing what I like to do...or crafting.

duendology

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

A few minutes PER OCCASION that someone doesn't know what they're doing can add up to 30+ minutes per dungeon run. I have sat through MANY dungeons teaching people things instead of just kicking them and getting someone competent from the get-go. I'm not willing to make that sacrifice every day anymore.

A player is not "trying to up his game" if he walks into a place with no knowledge of it. TRYING to up his game would be using that pink squishy thing inside his head to read about the place he's about to enter so he doesn't waste everyone elses' time learning it as he goes.

You know, when Dragon Bones dlc came out, I watched "elite" players giving the two dungeons a go on PTS. And I watched them dying and dying and dying and dying... and, you know, dying. They'd spend HOURS being wiped. They were learning the mechanics, of course, so you and others could benefit from the knowledge and, hopefully, "clear" the places faster than they did ON THEIR FIRST RUN.

I also keep following streams of a few vet players who, knowing dungeon mechanics by heart, still make mistakes and.....die...

Now imagine a new player and his/her first time in ANY dungeon...

Is it, perhaps, advisable, to maybe google a dungeon and see what it's all about? Yes, it is, if it's a vet dungeon especially.
Is it good to google the same dungeon on normal mode? I suppose so.. but generally, there's something wrong with the game here if a player HAS to do that in order to try a dungeon in a first place because they're likely to get kicked for not passing the mandatory exam "I watched the streams and know the mechanics". There's something wrong if a player is judged by the number of CP whether they can have a go or not... This sucks! And I could have my hand cut off that there's a large base of players who avoid random dungeon finder exactly because of that attitude!

I don't do Random because of that. I am here to enjoy the game and not stress over because I am not allowed do goofs because some people do dungeon speed runs. F*** that!

Dapper Dinosaur

I don't do Random because of that.

That makes you a responsible player!