Dodge roll and aoe (Scalecaller peak final boss as example)

hydrocynus

Hi All,

We have been battling with Scalecaller peak final boss particularly with avoiding the dragon breath. We were getting frustrated with trying to dodge roll out of the fire and dying when our bodies were clearly out of the range of the fire blast. Initially we thought this may be related to lag, but then when we started changing to run out of the blast area as opposed to dodge rolling we noticed that we survived significantly more of the blasts.

What seems to be happening is that when you dodge roll, you are still considered to be the starting point of the dodge roll until the dodge roll animation is completed and you are only then considered to be out of the blast range. I would imagine that this would be the same for all AOE type attacks that are dodged.

Alternatively could it be that attacks that are classed as undodgeable consider you to be at the position of start of roll and not your actual coordinates until the dodge is completed? I dont know if this fire mechanic is intended to be undodgeable but it does seem in this patch that ZoS has tried to distinguish attacks that are blockable and dodgeable (which is quite nice) so wouldnt be surprised if this was considered undodgeable.

Either that or it is lag and we just got lucky but i thought it's worth asking the question.

SodanTok

Been observing same results on almost any undodgeable AoE in PVE. Tho I did always blame simply horrible animation delays this game suffers (ehm ehm when enemy stuns you with heavy attack before you see even the swing of the sword)

Joy_Division

Stop dodge rolling and instead run out of AoE.

Also stand near the dragons so the red AoE you have to leave is really skinny and there isn't any need to run in the first place.

hydrocynus

That is what we did. Hence the question in the thread.

Jarryzzt

To the OP:

1. That specific AoE is one you sprint out of, not roll-dodge. As others have mentioned.

1a. From experience, I'd actually recommend standing not next to the dragons but halfway down (so near the center), but always face them (so try to keep the boss between yourself and the statues). That way you see the AoEs coming, can still deal with the boss, and can quickly react to when she spawns the ice giants (which are typically somewhat apart so a central position to get to both fast is important).

2. Interestingly, I've observed the issue of getting hit by an AoE even if you roll-dodge just out of it (so as you stand up you should be outside the "red") in other dungeons as well. To me it looks like a hitbox issue, basically, either the AoEs extend past the "red" (unlikely) or the character hitbox is such that roll-dodging (vs. sprinting out) of an AoE can leave a corner of it in the "red".

jaws343

Yeah, counter-intuitively, roll-dodging doesn't work with this mechanic.

And straddling the edges of the AOE is the best tactic. Have the tank position the boss directly between two AOEs. That way all you need to do when one appears is strafe slightly to the left or right. But make sure to do it in the middle of the room. Standing right on top of the statues obstructs your view and makes it harder to block the Zaan mechanic because you have less room to do so. Plus, the tank can get hit with the knockback attack and knocked off of the cliff if you stand too close or are forced to get close to the edge.

NyassaV

Joy_Division wrote: »

Stop dodge rolling and instead run out of AoE.

Also stand near the dragons so the red AoE you have to leave is really skinny and there isn't any need to run in the first place.

Even that doesn't work sometimes

I've sent Gina a link to a list of videos that sorta outline what needs adjusting so hopefully stuff will work out. The non hardmode is laughably easier than the HM

Tasear

There's a few places where I swear on my life that I am out (fang lair) but yeah what you are saying sounds about right.

Dodge roll is broken please fix @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno

hydrocynus

I am not sure it's broken..

If the attack is considered undodgeable then I think it is right that if you are in mid dodge then your x/y coordinates remain your foot position I initiating the dodge until the point that you land and the animation completes. The alternative would be that you have effectively dodged an undodgeable attack so I would say working as intended.

Another example of this is the flame meteors on 2nd boss helra right side where it is advised to block them as opposed to dodging them. Is probably the same thing happening because if you are dodging you are not blocking and therefore take full damage and die if your dodge has not completed on impact.

LiquidPony

hydrocynus wrote: »

I am not sure it's broken..

If the attack is considered undodgeable then I think it is right that if you are in mid dodge then your x/y coordinates remain your foot position I initiating the dodge until the point that you land and the animation completes. The alternative would be that you have effectively dodged an undodgeable attack so I would say working as intended.

Another example of this is the flame meteors on 2nd boss helra right side where it is advised to block them as opposed to dodging them. Is probably the same thing happening because if you are dodging you are not blocking and therefore take full damage and die if your dodge has not completed on impact.

The same thing is true on The Serpent's Worldshaper in vSO HM, on the nightblade boss's similar mechanic in vAS, and a variety of other things.

I think it's pretty stupid.

So ... if I dodge roll, and I'm out of the AoE, my position is calculated as where I started the dodge. But, if I slowly walk out of the AoE, my position updates normally. So I have "effectively dodged an undodgeable attack" ... by slowly walking out of it.

That doesn't make any sense, and it never has. If you dodge roll out, you don't need to "dodge" the AoE, you just need to be not in the AoE when it hits. You're not dodge rolling to "dodge" the attack, you're dodge rolling to very quickly get out of the attack's range. The way it works now is poor mechanical design.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Joy_Division wrote: »

Stop dodge rolling and instead run out of AoE.

Also stand near the dragons so the red AoE you have to leave is really skinny and there isn't any need to run in the first place.

This! I dont know what the actual answer is, but on that fight, dodgerolling is a death sentence. My guess is that the damage is considered undodgeable, and the time from the red on your feet to the damage impact is simply less than the time of a dodgroll, which practically means, you cant use a roll dodge to avoid it. It's frustrating because it goes against every natural instinct I have, but there are handful of AOE circles in this game where dodge is not the answer (looking at you upstairs boss in HRC).

When we did hardmode, we made sure to keep the fight as close to the statues as possible. Basically the DPS hung out on the gap between the left and center AOE, and the tank held the spot between the center and right AOE. That way it only takes a step or two to move out of any of the damage. If you fight near the entrance, or in the center when the center aoe fires, you are almost certainly dead.

In other news, they still need to look at some of the safety synergies (dont know what to call them). If the little orb that shoots the beam happens to cross the stationary circle that needs the synergy, the person going for the beam is probably toast because it doesnt activate on top of the other circle, at least not reliably. RNG should never be mechanic.

Kanar

LiquidPony wrote: »

....if I dodge roll, and I'm out of the AoE, my position is calculated as where I started the dodge....

This is an exact description of the observed behavior, and yes it is broken as hell. Dodge roll is a movement mode as well as Dodge mechanic, it should not be punishing us like this. This type of use is even encouraged - bow's hasty retreat encourages Dodge roll then sprint.

An interesting confirmation test would be to do the reverse: find one of these (many) AoEs and test Dodge rolling INTO it. This test would verify the hypothesis: you shouldn't get hit by the aoe.

hydrocynus

Kanar wrote: »

An interesting confirmation test would be to do the reverse: find one of these (many) AoEs and test Dodge rolling INTO it. This test would verify the hypothesis: you shouldn't get hit by the aoe.

That would be a very interesting observation actually

itsfatbass

They changed the way roll dodge works. It no longer applies your characters new location until the roll dodge has completed. Makes some interesting stuff to avoid...

firedrgn

I thought they changed what could be dodged and blocked with the last patch. Not sure if its related

Dracane

Your observation is correct and applies to other AoEs too. You are still considered as being at the start of your dodge, until it is completed. But also, some AoE are simply bigger than indicated

Lord-Otto

Dracane wrote: »

Your observation is correct and applies to other AoEs too. You are still considered as being at the start of your dodge, until it is completed. But also, some AoE are simply bigger than indicated

Yeah, I think MOST would be the "righter" term.
;3

SaintSubwayy

Kanar wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

....if I dodge roll, and I'm out of the AoE, my position is calculated as where I started the dodge....

This is an exact description of the observed behavior, and yes it is broken as hell. Dodge roll is a movement mode as well as Dodge mechanic, it should not be punishing us like this. This type of use is even encouraged - bow's hasty retreat encourages Dodge roll then sprint.

An interesting confirmation test would be to do the reverse: find one of these (many) AoEs and test Dodge rolling INTO it. This test would verify the hypothesis: you shouldn't get hit by the aoe.

Actually dodgerolling into an aoe works sometimes, i managed to dodgeroll the AS fire aoe, by dodgerolling through the firewave and didnt get hit by the dmg, nor the dot but this was a lucky one timer I guess, since dodgerolling into something you should get out of is very hiddious xD

IMO they should change the Dodgemechanic that your location gets moved while you're in the animation. Not that your still on the old position till your fully back on your feet. If something is undodgeable and you'd manage to get out of it (so your feet are out) why cant you get out by rolldodgeing and your char is clearly out of the aoe, however due to the caluclations youre still inside it. kinda useless to try and save your life in those situations anyways.