Increase siege damage

CompM4s

What do you think about increasing siege damage. Maybe to increase the amount based on how many targets are hit. Would be a great way to stop zergs and give keeps a better chance at defense. 25% damage for every additional player hit? Thoughts?

Vapirko

Would have to be only in CP campaigns.

CompM4s

Vapirko wrote: »

Would have to be only in CP campaigns.

True, forgot about how much damage is done in non-cp.

TequilaFire

Best way to break up zergs or for zergs to annihilate each other.
Tired of seeing players standing in the red and taunting because siege doesn't even dent them.

VaranisArano

Disorganized zergs tend to melt in siege because they don't have good healers. If you see a group that doesnt look like they are being dented by siege, they are almost certainly an organized group with good healers. Its not that the siege isnt hurting (I'll get 2-shot by coldfire if I don't heal myself). Its that an organized group also has organized healers.

That's especially true of ball groups that stack Earthgore, and increasing the damage of siege wont help you there.

TequilaFire

VaranisArano wrote: »

Disorganized zergs tend to melt in siege because they don't have good healers. If you see a group that doesnt look like they are being dented by siege, they are almost certainly an organized group with good healers. Its not that the siege isnt hurting (I'll get 2-shot by coldfire if I don't heal myself). Its that an organized group also has organized healers.

That's especially true of ball groups that stack Earthgore, and increasing the damage of siege wont help you there.

All the more reason to put siege damage like it used to be before everybody cried boo hoo.
On Vivec I am seeing siege damage numbers mitigated in the low hundreds.
On no CP it works like it should.

VaranisArano

TequilaFire wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Disorganized zergs tend to melt in siege because they don't have good healers. If you see a group that doesnt look like they are being dented by siege, they are almost certainly an organized group with good healers. Its not that the siege isnt hurting (I'll get 2-shot by coldfire if I don't heal myself). Its that an organized group also has organized healers.

That's especially true of ball groups that stack Earthgore, and increasing the damage of siege wont help you there.

All the more reason to put siege damage like it used to be before everybody cried boo hoo.
On Vivec I am seeing siege damage numbers mitigated in the low hundreds.
On no CP it works like it should.

So...that's an issue with mitigation, not siege. On my rather non-tanky character, I'll die in short order to siege in CP PVP if I don't heal.If you make siege hit harder to deal with super tanks, guess what? Everyone will get more tanky. If ZOS adjusts the PVP tanking meta which they've been trying to do since Morrowind dropped, you don't need more damaging siege, because the mitigation you are complaining about isn't as bad. That being said, I'm not bothered by that mitigation when it comes to siege. In my experience, siege damage alone doesn't kill most players unless its overwhelming or they don't have access to heals, even without extreme mitigation. And if mitigation is the root problem, it affects more skills than siege, so its better to address the root problem rather than slap on new fixes like buffing siege or other damage skills.

I personally don't have any issues with siege damage on CP PVP, partly because it does a ton of damage when it hits me (and I doubt you want me to decide I need to become tankier to deal with siege damage) AND I don't expect siege alone to kill an organized group unless its completely overwhelming, such that the healers run out of resources.

(I'm going to add this note because someone inevitably suggests removing CP from all PVP. I prefer CP PVP. I far prefer CP PVP to No CP PVP. So any suggestions about removing CP from PVP in order to fix your particular issues don't fix my problem of getting to play the form of PVP I prefer. So I'm not interested in those types of responses.)

Drakkdjinn

CP makes siege underpowered; it isn't on its own, the opposite in fact.

TequilaFire

VaranisArano wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Disorganized zergs tend to melt in siege because they don't have good healers. If you see a group that doesnt look like they are being dented by siege, they are almost certainly an organized group with good healers. Its not that the siege isnt hurting (I'll get 2-shot by coldfire if I don't heal myself). Its that an organized group also has organized healers.

That's especially true of ball groups that stack Earthgore, and increasing the damage of siege wont help you there.

All the more reason to put siege damage like it used to be before everybody cried boo hoo.
On Vivec I am seeing siege damage numbers mitigated in the low hundreds.
On no CP it works like it should.

So...that's an issue with mitigation, not siege. On my rather non-tanky character, I'll die in short order to siege in CP PVP if I don't heal.If you make siege hit harder to deal with super tanks, guess what? Everyone will get more tanky. If ZOS adjusts the PVP tanking meta which they've been trying to do since Morrowind dropped, you don't need more damaging siege, because the mitigation you are complaining about isn't as bad.

I personally don't have any issues with siege damage on CP PVP, partly because it does a ton of damage when it hits me (and I doubt you want me to decide I need to become tankier to deal with siege damage) AND I don't expect siege alone to kill an organized group unless its completely overwhelming, such that the healers run out of resources.

A lot easier to increase siege damage than reduce tankiness and screw with PvE.
Just make the siege more powerful than max possible mitigation.
Oils destroy rams but not players the way it is now, didn't used to be that way iin the ESO early days.

thedude33

TequilaFire wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Disorganized zergs tend to melt in siege because they don't have good healers. If you see a group that doesnt look like they are being dented by siege, they are almost certainly an organized group with good healers. Its not that the siege isnt hurting (I'll get 2-shot by coldfire if I don't heal myself). Its that an organized group also has organized healers.

That's especially true of ball groups that stack Earthgore, and increasing the damage of siege wont help you there.

All the more reason to put siege damage like it used to be before everybody cried boo hoo.
On Vivec I am seeing siege damage numbers mitigated in the low hundreds.
On no CP it works like it should.

Agree. No matter how some here think it is a mitigation problem ...or a healing problem ... or whatever. The game has changed, and people no longer fear getting hit by siege. That's the bottom line. Siege needs a tweek/adjustment.

VaranisArano

I'm starting to suspect that this is classic tunnel vision.

The defenders think siege is underpowered and needs a buff because all they see is the attackers surviving. The attackers think the siege is plenty dangerous enough and all they see is how much effort it takes to survive the incoming siege. And then there's the people who think that pouring oils and light attacking off the wall is all they should have to do to drive determined attackers off.

I know I'm thinking about this like an attacker, knowing how dangerous it is sieging with determined defenders are pouring oils and firing siege from the walls and hearing the efforts of the raid's healers keeping us all up. I suspect other people are looking at it from the perspective of the defenders, pouring oil and firing siege and getting frustrated that the attackers aren't dead yet. And then there's the people who spend so long pouring oil and light attacking off the top of the wall that those determined attackers break down the door and are now pouring into the keep...

As an attacker in CP PVP, I don't think siege needs a buff. As a defender in CP PVP, I can tell you that throwing light attacks and pouring oils isn't going to save the keep.

CompM4s

I would love to see sieges becoming stronger even if im attacking. Siege weapons should be vastly more important in battles than they currently are. In addition, to mitigate siege damage, players could still utilize siege shields when using a ram. Right now siege shields are not that important unless thier are 10+ oils

freespirit

CompM4s wrote: »

I would love to see sieges becoming stronger even if im attacking. Siege weapons should be vastly more important in battles than they currently are. In addition, to mitigate siege damage, players could still utilize siege shields when using a ram. Right now siege shields are not that important unless thier are 10+ oils

So you are saying seige shields are not effective when using rams UNLESS there are 10+ oils?? Really???

CompM4s

freespirit wrote: »

CompM4s wrote: »

I would love to see sieges becoming stronger even if im attacking. Siege weapons should be vastly more important in battles than they currently are. In addition, to mitigate siege damage, players could still utilize siege shields when using a ram. Right now siege shields are not that important unless thier are 10+ oils

So you are saying seige shields are not effective when using rams UNLESS there are 10+ oils?? Really???

No I didnt say they were not effective. I said they were not that important unless a large amount of oils are being dropped.

The point I am making is that a Siege Shield is nice to have, but is not a absolute must to have at the moment. Most players can easily be healed through a few oils or siege weapons.
If siege weapons were buffed, then well placed siege shields would be way more important.

Biro123

I think siege is a little weak on CP but way too strong in no-CP - to the point where many people would rather kite to the nearest friendly keep then siege-up than actually fight...

Its one of the major differences between the two in terms of how they play. imo, if you want stronger siege - play in no-cp. If not, play in cp.. The option is already there - don't be trying to take it away.

Berenhir

Yeah, go noCP if you want stronger siege damage. It's so ridiculous there that people put up ballistas open field and rather siege you than jump into a 2v1.

Mayrael

Don't increase the damage. Make secondary effects unpurgable like oil snare or meatbugs decrease healing recieved (not major defile so we can stack it with some sets if someone will be brave enough to stand in the middle of the enemy zerg). Make that lightning balistas damage magicka AND STAMINA and increase amount of resource drain. Stone balistas and trebuchets should add unpurgable major breach and fracture. Siege weapons are not mobile, can't be spammed to, so using it is harder than skills thats why secondary effects should not be purgable (only dot damage effects should be becauseif not this would make those weapons OP.) so actually that meatbug or oil catapult would make the difference.

CompM4s

I was thinking of incremental damage increase much like proximity detonation. So that damage doesnt increase from 1 person but has significant increase based on how many players are hit.

VaranisArano

CompM4s wrote: »

I was thinking of incremental damage increase much like proximity detonation. So that damage doesnt increase from 1 person but has significant increase based on how many players are hit.

I'm not sure that an effect that makes sense for a spell makes sense for a pot of oil. I mean, whats the cause of the extra damage, more players splashing it on each other or something?

Now if you introduce it as a new form of antipersonnal siege, sure, I could see that.

TequilaFire

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm starting to suspect that this is classic tunnel vision.

The defenders think siege is underpowered and needs a buff because all they see is the attackers surviving. The attackers think the siege is plenty dangerous enough and all they see is how much effort it takes to survive the incoming siege. And then there's the people who think that pouring oils and light attacking off the wall is all they should have to do to drive determined attackers off.

I know I'm thinking about this like an attacker, knowing how dangerous it is sieging with determined defenders are pouring oils and firing siege from the walls and hearing the efforts of the raid's healers keeping us all up. I suspect other people are looking at it from the perspective of the defenders, pouring oil and firing siege and getting frustrated that the attackers aren't dead yet. And then there's the people who spend so long pouring oil and light attacking off the top of the wall that those determined attackers break down the door and are now pouring into the keep...

As an attacker in CP PVP, I don't think siege needs a buff. As a defender in CP PVP, I can tell you that throwing light attacks and pouring oils isn't going to save the keep.

You obviously don't defend keeps very often, many times there is only one or 2 players defending a keep and oils or a ballista on the breach can delay an attack long enough for help to arrive.
You seem to be stuck in your own tunnel.

Feanor

The addition of Coldfire siege is particularly felt in noCP. They really do hurt.

TequilaFire

All I am suggesting is siege be as effective in CP campaigns as it is in noCP.
A 100 pound rock or a 5 foot flaming arrow hitting you should really hurt.

HeroOfNone

I do miss the day that siege was closer to a one shot. Folks seemed to watch thier feet, tanks melted, and it was the equalizer for lowbies verses some really broken high player builds. This upset some players though, mainly those that want this to be less RvR and more small group.

My compromise: give siege 2 damage zones 5m radius from center to give 200% damage, and then the rest gives the standard damage we have now. Gives some reward for accurate shots and punishes players that can't dodge/run/walk out of such a short distance.

badmojo

Maybe...if purge wasn't group only.

VaranisArano

TequilaFire wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm starting to suspect that this is classic tunnel vision.

The defenders think siege is underpowered and needs a buff because all they see is the attackers surviving. The attackers think the siege is plenty dangerous enough and all they see is how much effort it takes to survive the incoming siege. And then there's the people who think that pouring oils and light attacking off the wall is all they should have to do to drive determined attackers off.

I know I'm thinking about this like an attacker, knowing how dangerous it is sieging with determined defenders are pouring oils and firing siege from the walls and hearing the efforts of the raid's healers keeping us all up. I suspect other people are looking at it from the perspective of the defenders, pouring oil and firing siege and getting frustrated that the attackers aren't dead yet. And then there's the people who spend so long pouring oil and light attacking off the top of the wall that those determined attackers break down the door and are now pouring into the keep...

As an attacker in CP PVP, I don't think siege needs a buff. As a defender in CP PVP, I can tell you that throwing light attacks and pouring oils isn't going to save the keep.

You obviously don't defend keeps very often, many times there is only one or 2 players defending a keep and oils or a ballista on the breach can delay an attack long enough for help to arrive.
You seem to be stuck in your own tunnel.

If the attackers aren't an organized raid, sure. A few defenders pouring oils and throwing light attacks can make a difference. When I defend keeps on PC/NA Vivec, I'm usually defending them against an organized raid - the very type of raids people are complaining about not getting dented by siege. If your attackers are determined, as most of the attackers I face are, a few oils and light attacks won't suffice. At most, those few oils and light attacks can delay the take enough for another group of your alliance to intervene - aka they weren't enough to save the keep all on their own which was my entire point.

Is this where I question how many times you've defended keeps against organized raids and faction stacks? No, let's not be childish. I can accept that in your experience, oils + light attacks are sufficient to defend keeps and I hope that you can accept that in my experience they aren't enough to defend keeps.

TequilaFire

VaranisArano wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm starting to suspect that this is classic tunnel vision.

The defenders think siege is underpowered and needs a buff because all they see is the attackers surviving. The attackers think the siege is plenty dangerous enough and all they see is how much effort it takes to survive the incoming siege. And then there's the people who think that pouring oils and light attacking off the wall is all they should have to do to drive determined attackers off.

I know I'm thinking about this like an attacker, knowing how dangerous it is sieging with determined defenders are pouring oils and firing siege from the walls and hearing the efforts of the raid's healers keeping us all up. I suspect other people are looking at it from the perspective of the defenders, pouring oil and firing siege and getting frustrated that the attackers aren't dead yet. And then there's the people who spend so long pouring oil and light attacking off the top of the wall that those determined attackers break down the door and are now pouring into the keep...

As an attacker in CP PVP, I don't think siege needs a buff. As a defender in CP PVP, I can tell you that throwing light attacks and pouring oils isn't going to save the keep.

You obviously don't defend keeps very often, many times there is only one or 2 players defending a keep and oils or a ballista on the breach can delay an attack long enough for help to arrive.
You seem to be stuck in your own tunnel.

If the attackers aren't an organized raid, sure. A few defenders pouring oils and throwing light attacks can make a difference. When I defend keeps on PC/NA Vivec, I'm usually defending them against an organized raid - the very type of raids people are complaining about not getting dented by siege. If your attackers are determined, as most of the attackers I face are, a few oils and light attacks won't suffice. At most, those few oils and light attacks can delay the take enough for another group of your alliance to intervene - aka they weren't enough to save the keep all on their own which was my entire point.

Is this where I question how many times you've defended keeps against organized raids and faction stacks? No, let's not be childish. I can accept that in your experience, oils + light attacks are sufficient to defend keeps and I hope that you can accept that in my experience they aren't enough to defend keeps.

Where the hell did I mention only using light attacks or even mention anything other than the subject of buffing siege?
Enough of this back and forth just to choke a thread.

VaranisArano

TequilaFire wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm starting to suspect that this is classic tunnel vision.

The defenders think siege is underpowered and needs a buff because all they see is the attackers surviving. The attackers think the siege is plenty dangerous enough and all they see is how much effort it takes to survive the incoming siege. And then there's the people who think that pouring oils and light attacking off the wall is all they should have to do to drive determined attackers off.

I know I'm thinking about this like an attacker, knowing how dangerous it is sieging with determined defenders are pouring oils and firing siege from the walls and hearing the efforts of the raid's healers keeping us all up. I suspect other people are looking at it from the perspective of the defenders, pouring oil and firing siege and getting frustrated that the attackers aren't dead yet. And then there's the people who spend so long pouring oil and light attacking off the top of the wall that those determined attackers break down the door and are now pouring into the keep...

As an attacker in CP PVP, I don't think siege needs a buff. As a defender in CP PVP, I can tell you that throwing light attacks and pouring oils isn't going to save the keep.

You obviously don't defend keeps very often, many times there is only one or 2 players defending a keep and oils or a ballista on the breach can delay an attack long enough for help to arrive.
You seem to be stuck in your own tunnel.

If the attackers aren't an organized raid, sure. A few defenders pouring oils and throwing light attacks can make a difference. When I defend keeps on PC/NA Vivec, I'm usually defending them against an organized raid - the very type of raids people are complaining about not getting dented by siege. If your attackers are determined, as most of the attackers I face are, a few oils and light attacks won't suffice. At most, those few oils and light attacks can delay the take enough for another group of your alliance to intervene - aka they weren't enough to save the keep all on their own which was my entire point.

Is this where I question how many times you've defended keeps against organized raids and faction stacks? No, let's not be childish. I can accept that in your experience, oils + light attacks are sufficient to defend keeps and I hope that you can accept that in my experience they aren't enough to defend keeps.

Where the hell did I mention only using light attacks or even mention anything other than the subject of buffing siege?
Enough of this back and forth just to choke a thread.

Okay, sure.. If I can't respond to your comment by talking about my comment you responded to...this really isn't a conversation.

Have a good day.

Edited to clarify something in the response: you didn't mention using only light attacks and oils to defend. I did, in the original comment of mine you were responding to. Then you called into question my experience sieging, so I explained why I said that I thought light attacks +oils weren't sufficient.

If you were trying to respond more in general and less specifically to my comment, that's fine. I agree with you that defensive siege is useful, I just don't think its sufficient on its own against determined attackers, nor should it be.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

We don't need more siege damage...we need new siege weapons! I vote for Mortars and Artillery batteries with the ability to strike anywhere in cyrodill from the home base camps and with a decent reload time also explosives would be good as well... C4 and TNT should be available to us already...oh you think im crazy? Clockwork city says hello.

NyassaV

Honestly, I can't see this as a thing. If we increase the damage done against keeps and the like I'd be ok with it.

VaranisArano

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

We don't need more siege damage...we need new siege weapons! I vote for Mortars and Artillery batteries with the ability to strike anywhere in cyrodill from the home base camps and with a decent reload time also explosives would be good as well... C4 and TNT should be available to us already...oh you think im crazy? Clockwork city says hello.

I'd take gigantic steam powered robots (that totally aren't clockwork Liberty Prime, nope) punching through walls and throwing explosives. Clockwork City has potential for fun siege weapons. Alas, someone would complain they were pay to win, unless ZOS made them part of the base game.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

@VaranisArano well all pvp related stuff except battlegrounds are part of the base game so why not...evolution must happen even in tamriel...we cant fight with sticks and rocks forever zenimax!!!