BALANCE! What are your thoughts on balancing PvE and PvP?

Datthaw

This is the biggest problem in this game, the wants and the needs of pvp and pve players are very different. One group cries for nerfs and it ruins the other groups play style. This has been happening patch after patch.

There has to be a medium that keeps everyone happy. Because every patch it's the same broken record, pvp and pve players blaming each other for nerfs.

Want to get some thoughts on this topic together on one page.

DieAlteHexe

I've long felt they should be balanced separately (in all MMOs that have PvP and PvE). I realise it's extra work but boy, nothing like getting nerf'd because of an issue on "the other side".

SaintSubwayy

Balance all skills arround pve.
Tweak certain skills and stats via battlespirut for pvp, and we're fine.

If something gets to op/weak in pvp nerf/buff it via battlespirit.

If something gets to op/weak in pve buff/ nerf it on the baseskills and adjust battlespirit.

Problem solved

SydneyGrey

They need to get balanced separately.
They need to make attacks affect other players differently than they affect NPCs. It seems that would be the easiest way to do it, but they haven't.

Turelus

I don't mind separate balance, but I think it needs to be done in a way which still lets PvX players transition from one to the other without having to redo everything on their character.

Sadly some CP and morphs have already gone in this way meaning it's less easy to just switch gear and skills on your bar and dive into another area of the game (No CP campaigns help on that issue).

I don't want to see a system where skills function entirely differently within PvP and PvE.

BohnT

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/394278/pve-pvp-nerfs#latest that sums my thoughts on this up

Narvuntien

Have a PvE morph and a PVP morph or separate CP trees one for PVP and one for PVE.

That would separate PVE and PVP without having to change the functionality of any skills.

You can also have small changes to skills such as what is with Ambush... in that it is only a snare on players.
Ability does this in PVE and this similar slightly different thing in PVP. But I wouldn't go overboard with it just stun into a snare level.

Turelus

Narvuntien wrote: »

Have a PvE morph and a PVP morph or separate CP trees one for PVP and one for PVE.

That promotes a "you can play one or the other" though. Why should people who enjoy both be forced to constantly respec skills to do something else?

CP already has some PvP only choices which can be circumvented with No CP campaigns but if you want to play CP campaigns and PvE you need to respect every single time you do a new activity.

Taonnor

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Balance all skills arround pve.
Tweak certain skills and stats via battlespirut for pvp, and we're fine.

If something gets to op/weak in pvp nerf/buff it via battlespirit.

If something gets to op/weak in pve buff/ nerf it on the baseskills and adjust battlespirit.

Problem solved

And i say, balance around pvp, remove battlespirit and adjust pve. The reason is, that the environment is doing what i want and nothing more...

stewhead2ub17_ESO

This is a problem across the genre. I don't think there can actually be "balance" for both play styles. As such, I'm of the opinion they should be separate servers in games. PvP and PvE servers. I know this means you can't switch your char between the two at will. You would have to create a toon on each server, but I don't see any other real solution to this issue.
*shrugs*

AcadianPaladin

The game has tried since inception to balance the two together. How's that workin' out so far? Surely after several years of failing a different approach might be called for?

I've always urged balancing them separately.

It is already two different games. I'm a PvE player and during my casual time in Cyrodiil to earn some alliance skills I encountered completely different characters - many decked out in heavy armor with S&B/2H, full impen, tons of hp. Impossible (for me) to kill 1v1 and they hit like a freight train. I decided that if I wanted to play PvP (which I don't), I would need to build a separate PvP-focused character.

NewBlacksmurf

My thoughts:

Balance isn’t or shouldn’t be a practice of making one common build balanced to another.

People have decided that PvE and PvP are different types of people or different groups. Not just in this game so that impacts the rest of my comments.

The developers would be best to change this game so that skills in PvE, the effects and abilities perform differently than those same skills in PvP.

The game has intentionally kept the two seperate so it’s almost as if there are different game modes.
I see group PvP as one group.
Solo PvE as a group
Group PvE as a group
*People want solo PvP to be a group

You can’t balance these but you can set different effects for each. Now hearing the dev team in the last few months point blank say they don’t want to seperate it could’ve meant something different that what I wrote above but it was understood that they too see PvE as one group and PvP as another.

The game doesn’t work in a way that one impacts the other so outside of it being a task, I don’t understand what the reasoning is. They said they didn’t want people to have to learn two different game modes but what’s funny they change both every 30-90 days so that doesn’t make sense if that’s your reason.

I stand by the solution to seperate them entirely to whatever extent that may be.

ShadowMonarch

Pve doesn't matter balance wise as much as Pvp. End game any class can do fine anyway in pve. PVE is a rail shooter. Its a system you are made to beat with npc's, not real people, that are made to be beaten. It is NOT direct competition.

PvP is real people playing class's in so many various ways and in various styles that keeping a balance is a BIG deal. PVP isn't something you really ever "win" at, sure the campaign ends then starts strait back up again. Sure your battleground ends, but then you start it again and again because its not a dungeon you run through for a achievement or gear, its a COMPETITION. Its a live 24/7 competition with other players DIRECTLY, head to head. Not through who can get the fastest time or highest dps a second, its about strategy and teamwork. Its about adapting to a infinite number of scenarios and possibility every single second to come out on top. It is DIRECT COMPETITION. This is why balance for PVP has to take priority over balance for PVE.

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Balance all skills arround pve.
Tweak certain skills and stats via battlespirut for pvp, and we're fine.

If something gets to op/weak in pvp nerf/buff it via battlespirit.

If something gets to op/weak in pve buff/ nerf it on the baseskills and adjust battlespirit.

Problem solved

Its a good idea.

Taonnor wrote: »

And i say, balance around pvp, remove battlespirit and adjust pve.

Also valid idea would work just as well.

DieAlteHexe

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Pve doesn't matter balance wise as much as Pvp. End game any class can do fine anyway in pve. PVE is a rail shooter. Its a system you are made to beat with npc's, not real people, that are made to be beaten. It is NOT direct competition.

PvP is real people playing class's in so many various ways and in various styles that keeping a balance is a BIG deal. PVP isn't something you really ever "win" at, sure the campaign ends then starts strait back up again. Sure your battleground ends, but then you start it again and again because its not a dungeon you run through for a achievement or gear, its a COMPETITION. Its a live 24/7 competition with other players DIRECTLY, head to head. Not through who can get the fastest time or highest dps a second, its about strategy and teamwork. Its about adapting to a infinite number of scenarios and possibility every single second to come out on top. It is DIRECT COMPETITION. This is why balance for PVP has to take priority over balance for PVE.

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Balance all skills arround pve.
Tweak certain skills and stats via battlespirut for pvp, and we're fine.

If something gets to op/weak in pvp nerf/buff it via battlespirit.

If something gets to op/weak in pve buff/ nerf it on the baseskills and adjust battlespirit.

Problem solved

Its a good idea.

Taonnor wrote: »

And i say, balance around pvp, remove battlespirit and adjust pve.

Also valid idea would work just as well.

OMG! I'm a fake!

Silly that..."real people..."

reiverx

It's not just PVE and PVP. They also have to balance classes between mag and stam. Sometimes it leaves one utterly redundant.

Apache_Kid

Turelus wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

Have a PvE morph and a PVP morph or separate CP trees one for PVP and one for PVE.

That promotes a "you can play one or the other" though. Why should people who enjoy both be forced to constantly respec skills to do something else?

CP already has some PvP only choices which can be circumvented with No CP campaigns but if you want to play CP campaigns and PvE you need to respect every single time you do a new activity.

I mean, many skills in the game already do this.

If I want to PvE on my sorc i have to use the pet morph of daedric curse. If I PvP I have to use the Haunting curse morph because I'd be stupid not to. I have to re-morph dawnbreaker every time I go from PvE to PvP (those are just two skill examples I can give more), I have to re-spec my CP, I have to re-spec my attributes... We are already at the "you can play one or the other" in my opinion. Yeah if you're doing casual playing of both PvE and PvP then it doesn't matter and you can hop in willy-nilly but for many players we already have to re-spec every-time I switch. I do at least one skill morph reset and one attribute reset and one CP reset per day. Sometimes multiples of each.

The solution here is to allow us to actually morph one skill at at time while having different CP pages that we can alternate between. They literally designed a game with skills that have morphs for PvE/PvP and CP/traits that is only effective in PvP while useless in PvE.... This game was tailor-made for balancing both modes completely seperately and yet its 2018 and here we are. People still being toxic on here towards PvP players who just want balanced game-play when their anger is completely mis-directed.

Wolfenbelle

Turelus wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

Have a PvE morph and a PVP morph or separate CP trees one for PVP and one for PVE.

That promotes a "you can play one or the other" though. Why should people who enjoy both be forced to constantly respec skills to do something else?

CP already has some PvP only choices which can be circumvented with No CP campaigns but if you want to play CP campaigns and PvE you need to respect every single time you do a new activity.

Well maybe the answer is for ZOS to add a quality-of-life function that lets players respec with just a click of a mouse or button. There are add-ons that do this for gear. Should be a short step from there for the system to remember what a player selects for PvP and PvE.

Defilted

If ZOS truly wants to balance classes in PVE and PVP they will have to separate them or another way to look at it is when logging into PVP area Battle spirit changes all the skills and such for PVP. Either way in most MMO's that have both game types are joined at the beginning and then separated later when the developers learn they cannot do it combined in the way they want. We just need to be patient and allow the ZOS devs to come to this conclusion on their own.

You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink.

Turelus

Wolfenbelle wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

Have a PvE morph and a PVP morph or separate CP trees one for PVP and one for PVE.

That promotes a "you can play one or the other" though. Why should people who enjoy both be forced to constantly respec skills to do something else?

CP already has some PvP only choices which can be circumvented with No CP campaigns but if you want to play CP campaigns and PvE you need to respect every single time you do a new activity.

Well maybe the answer is for ZOS to add a quality-of-life function that lets players respec with just a click of a mouse or button. There are add-ons that do this for gear. Should be a short step from there for the system to remember what a player selects for PvP and PvE.

I would be fine with this. If we can have two specs which we're free to change between (but still cost to respec them) then I would be happy if there was more separation between the two types of gameplay.
Until that time though I don't want to have to spend 10mins and a bunch of gold just to do something different that night.

@Apache_Kid you're right and sadly with each update/balance pass the separation between the two has increased more. It's one of the areas of game changes I am not a fan of. Especially as this game's always been sold on the idea of a seamless transition between PvE and PvP.

JBNimble

In PvP, the lag always wins.
Also, PvP can NEVER be balanced.
Depending on circumstances, some class/stat/skill has always dis-/advantages.
How can you tell if there is a balancing problem, or the other one was simply better, or - more common - was simply lucky.
In PvE, it's mostly about a single aspect (X is doing more DPS than Y), in PvP it's... number-hell? Damage, mitigation, selfheal, mobility, buffs, cc, ressources... well yeah, we can easily bring everyone to the same level: reduce the game to one button.

In PvE, balancing issues are completely mathematic:
People can calculate what's good and what's bad.
Result: "Nope, your class is bad, you can't join the raid."
Balancing problem? No. People problem, it's called "yeah, I want hard-mode, but as easy as possible!"

Also, of course it is complete nonsense trying to balance anything for 1on1 in a multiplayer game.

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

OMG! I'm a fake!

Balance is fake alternative fact.

Ch4mpTW

I feel as though this game should be balanced more so around PvE, as that is the base and core of the game. And from there, adjust as needed to meet whatever balance-oriented demands that need to be met for PvP.

The idea of balancing both PvE and PvP simultaneously is a very foolish concept. Why it is that the developers continue doing this is outside of understanding, as they should’ve learned by now from othergame development teams that attempting such a thing will result in failure. Not only that, but they should’ve scrapped that particular concept after seeing year after year that it isn’t working.

Logic should dictate that when you attempt something a multitude of times, and it doesn’t work out, to try something different. Not in ZOS’ case unfortunately. Even with both their PvE and PvP sub-communities making these complaints, they still choose to ignore us. Arrogant fools indeed.

Apache_Kid

JBNimble wrote: »

In PvP, the lag always wins.
Also, PvP can NEVER be balanced.
Depending on circumstances, some class/stat/skill has always dis-/advantages.
How can you tell if there is a balancing problem, or the other one was simply better, or - more common - was simply lucky.
In PvE, it's mostly about a single aspect (X is doing more DPS than Y), in PvP it's... number-hell? Damage, mitigation, selfheal, mobility, buffs, cc, ressources... well yeah, we can easily bring everyone to the same level: reduce the game to one button.

In PvE, balancing issues are completely mathematic:
People can calculate what's good and what's bad.
Result: "Nope, your class is bad, you can't join the raid."
Balancing problem? No. People problem, it's called "yeah, I want hard-mode, but as easy as possible!"

Also, of course it is complete nonsense trying to balance anything for 1on1 in a multiplayer game.

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

OMG! I'm a fake!

Balance is fake alternative fact.

You know it when you see it.

Something that has the burst potential of Zaan is one of those things.

As you say in PvE it's about DPS

In PvP it's about BURST DAMAGE. BURST IS KING BURST RULES ALL

That is one very important aspect to consider when spotting imbalances.

This is just one example.

It's not that PvP can "never" be balanced. That's a terrible attitude to have. No it will never be perfect but neither will PvE, that's why certain classes have higher DPS than others. The goal is to get it as close as you can to being balanced. Looking at PvE and PvP as the seperate entities that they are is the best way to achieve something close to balance.

Universe

As long as ZOS continues to balance PVP and PVE together(abilities, item sets, passive abilities, champion passives etc.), there will be no balance.
Since ZOS doesn't want to balance PVP and PVE separately and they are not likely to change their minds about it, there will never be balance.

VaranisArano

In PVP, the players feel balance as they play, but only from their own perspective. Its very easy to tell which things are unbalanced from the perspective on your own build. So PVP tends to feel more like a game of rock, papers, scissors. Something will always counter your build or your skills, no one can build to counter everything, and anything that counters too much or has too few counters tends to get nerfed back into balance.

In PVE, the players feel balance versus the performance of other classes. Classes/races that do things more efficiently become the meta, classes/races that do things slightly less efficient become derided as useless. PVE also has to balance across roles. Dragonknights make fantastic tanks and keep taking DPS nerfs. On top of all that, there's a level of balancing player vs. content that we players don't have access to but ZOS does. Trial and dungeon bosses don't sign up to the forums to complain about getting burned down too fast - ZOS has that data. However, we can guess when ZOS will make a balancing pass over PVE when we hear players start to claim that PVE content is too easy.

Trying to balance them both is tricky.

Tyr_Fury

well it's really simple to satisfy both sides, really. Guild Wars 2 made it properly. They split certain skills that behave differently in PvP and PvE and they made them switch as you change the game mode (e.g. if you go PvP it changes what it does from PvE) and they're balanced separately. so If a skill is OP in PvP they will tweak how it affects PvP and nerf it, while PvE remaining the same if it's optimal.

to give an example: . https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blurred_Frenzy

Apache_Kid

Tyr_Fury wrote: »

well it's really simple to satisfy both sides, really. Guild Wars 2 made it properly. They split certain skills that behave differently in PvP and PvE and they made them switch as you change the game mode (e.g. if you go PvP it changes what it does from PvE) and they're balanced separately. so If a skill is OP in PvP they will tweak how it affects PvP and nerf it, while PvE remaining the same if it's optimal.

to give an example: . https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blurred_Frenzy

Wow! what a novel ******* concept!!!

Tyr_Fury

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Tyr_Fury wrote: »

well it's really simple to satisfy both sides, really. Guild Wars 2 made it properly. They split certain skills that behave differently in PvP and PvE and they made them switch as you change the game mode (e.g. if you go PvP it changes what it does from PvE) and they're balanced separately. so If a skill is OP in PvP they will tweak how it affects PvP and nerf it, while PvE remaining the same if it's optimal.

to give an example: . https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blurred_Frenzy

Wow! what a novel ******* concept!!!

what made you butthurt?

JobooAGS

Just balance the 2 seperately and everyone's happy

ak_pvp

Tyr_Fury wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Tyr_Fury wrote: »

well it's really simple to satisfy both sides, really. Guild Wars 2 made it properly. They split certain skills that behave differently in PvP and PvE and they made them switch as you change the game mode (e.g. if you go PvP it changes what it does from PvE) and they're balanced separately. so If a skill is OP in PvP they will tweak how it affects PvP and nerf it, while PvE remaining the same if it's optimal.

to give an example: . https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blurred_Frenzy

Wow! what a novel ******* concept!!!

what made you butthurt?

I think its just because it has been suggested and knocked down by ZOS repeatedly.

Apache_Kid

Tyr_Fury wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Tyr_Fury wrote: »

well it's really simple to satisfy both sides, really. Guild Wars 2 made it properly. They split certain skills that behave differently in PvP and PvE and they made them switch as you change the game mode (e.g. if you go PvP it changes what it does from PvE) and they're balanced separately. so If a skill is OP in PvP they will tweak how it affects PvP and nerf it, while PvE remaining the same if it's optimal.

to give an example: . https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blurred_Frenzy

Wow! what a novel ******* concept!!!

what made you butthurt?

The ZoS devs who refuse to spend the time to balance the game separately.

I actually gave you the insightful on your post because I thought that the way GW2 did it was great. And my comment was like a sarcastic "Wow! i can't believe someone thought of that!"

I want ZoS to balance the game separately like it should be. I was not trying to be snarky toward you, only ZoS.

Doctordarkspawn

Seperate the two, or dont bother.

This has long been the consensus, and the correct one, and ZOS's bullcrap excuses as to why they refuse to (AKA, they dont want people to use different gearsets, and they allready do) is just to cover up the fact they either cant, or wont.

Personally? My forays into For Honor, which end in it geting removed from my Uplay account, make it very clear to me that I have no interest in PVP. So please. Stop leting it bleed into the balance of PVE for those of us who simply dont enjoy the activity.