Let's talk about Zaan: It needs adjustments

magorim

Hi,

is it really necessary that two pieces of armor are doing such a huge free damage without costing ressources or some form of downsides? I mean, I was lagging and it was hard to get away from the beam on top of wonky weapon swapping but ~19k damage from just two armor pieces is not balanced it's stupid and broken.
And before the PvE heros start to cry, it's not balanced in PvE, too. Far from it. It should always be the player doing high damage and it should cost ressources (ultimate, stamina, magicka) to achieve it.

VilniusNastavnik

How bout no. PvE has had to suffer through nerf after nerf after nerf because PvP

[Edit to remove bait]

WrathOfInnos

This is why we can't have nice things. It's 19k damage over time. The burst potential (assuming the 19k is accurate) is 19k/5s or <4K DPS. I've seen vigor heal more than 4K/s, and shields can mitigate much more than this.

Then there's the cooldown of 18s, so Zaan is only doing 19k/18s or around 1K DPS on average (in PVP, this is doubled for PVE).

There's the obvious counter of moving out of the beam before it ramps up the damage. 10m is not far to break. There are plenty of skills available to create distance.

It is actually pretty nice to have something that makes melee builds have to think twice before spamming gap closers to stay on top of Magicka builds.

Edit: Fixed cooldown, it was increased from 15 to 18s. Thanks for the reminder @Olupajmibanan

Azurya

NO, I just say NO!
no more NERFS anymore!

Mureel

LOL it is 10m - roll dodge and take off! xD

Feanor

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

This is why we can't have nice things. It's 19k damage over time. The burst potential (assuming the 19k is accurate) is 19k/5s or <4K DPS. I've seen vigor heal more than 4K/s, and shields can mitigate much more than this.

Then there's the cooldown of 15s, so Zaan is only doing 19k/15s or around 1.3K DPS on average (in PVP, this is doubled for PVE).

There's the obvious counter of moving out of the beam before it ramps up the damage. 10m is not far to break. There are plenty of skills available to create distance.

It is actually pretty nice to have something that makes melee builds have to think twice before spamming gap closers to stay on top of Magicka builds.

Have fun getting away from a MagDK with Zaan as Magicka char.

@Azurya

Yes, no more nerfs. Only Nightblade buffs henceforth, right?

Didgerion

Yes it needs the adjustments and No it will not be adjusted.

They need to sell those DLCs you know....

Sixty5

Don't get me wrong, the damage Zaan can deal is pretty disgusting, but, and this is a big but, it has a fairly long cooldown, and that does some interesting things.

Firstly, it normalises the skills DPS. The proc might have a base damage of 34k, but you are only getting that once every 15 seconds, bringing the sets overall DPS down to about 2.3k, and yes, while this is higher than other magicka based proc sets (Skoria, Grothdarr, Ilambris) Those other sets grant AOE damage, and won't remove your proc if you move away from your target.
Skoria is fire and forget, as it will proc entirely on its own. Grothdarr has higher damage output if you are hitting more than two enemies, and Ilambris has almost the same level of base damage output, along with AOE.

In PVP, Zaan is a bit more interesting. It does hit stupidly hard, but, there is clear counterplay. Break the beam. Once you realise this, you are mitigating pretty much all of the damage this set brings to the table, as half of the sets damage is loaded on to the last couple of ticks. Plus the set has an 18 second cooldown, which gives ample time for you to reset the fight, and pressure your opponent.

Is Zaan strong? Yes definitely, I'd even say it is a best in slot set for a number of PVE boss fights, but I wouldn't say that it is broken in any sense.

Carbonised

You were standing in stupid for 6 ticks. 6 ticks of anything, heals, shields, could have mitigated that damage. And lastly, you could have broken the beam and the set would have done 0 damage and been on cooldown. I don't see this being anyone's fault but your own.

Kingslayer513

magorim wrote: »

is it really necessary

Yes it is. Zaan is cool. Stop asking for nerfs, L2P.

Olupajmibanan

It is easy to counter with mobility or knockbacks. To my knowledge, it can be blocked as well.

But I wanted to know a few things.
1) Does Zaan beam break when I hide behind LoS objects? Based on similarity with Soul Assault, I assume it does but need confirmation.
2) I noticed that Zaan acts as DoT on your target. Can you cleanse it to get rid of it? Jesus Beam can be cleansed and Zaan is very similar to that.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Then there's the cooldown of 15s, so Zaan is only doing 19k/15s or around 1.3K DPS on average (in PVP, this is doubled for PVE).

The cooldown is actually 18 seconds so even less dps.

Seraphayel

Well, I think proc sets are usually a problem, even if they're counterable. They can't find the right balance, they really need to either disable them in PvP completely or find another solution to this problem.

code65536

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

It is actually pretty nice to have something that makes melee builds have to think twice before spamming gap closers to stay on top of Magicka builds.

Exactly. This is like someone complaining about meteor being OP while they don't block the initial hit and just stand there stewing in the ground DoT.

Didgerion

Sixty5 wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, the damage Zaan can deal is pretty disgusting, but, and this is a big but, it has a fairly long cooldown, and that does some interesting things.

Firstly, it normalises the skills DPS. The proc might have a base damage of 34k, but you are only getting that once every 15 seconds, bringing the sets overall DPS down to about 2.3k, and yes, while this is higher than other magicka based proc sets (Skoria, Grothdarr, Ilambris) Those other sets grant AOE damage, and won't remove your proc if you move away from your target.
Skoria is fire and forget, as it will proc entirely on its own. Grothdarr has higher damage output if you are hitting more than two enemies, and Ilambris has almost the same level of base damage output, along with AOE.

In PVP, Zaan is a bit more interesting. It does hit stupidly hard, but, there is clear counterplay. Break the beam. Once you realise this, you are mitigating pretty much all of the damage this set brings to the table, as half of the sets damage is loaded on to the last couple of ticks. Plus the set has an 18 second cooldown, which gives ample time for you to reset the fight, and pressure your opponent.

Is Zaan strong? Yes definitely, I'd even say it is a best in slot set for a number of PVE boss fights, but I wouldn't say that it is broken in any sense.

Agree! I think that Zaan is good in the current state of the game.

PVE wise - it is OPish a bit - but you have to have a melee build to make full use of it.

PVP wise - you have to have a magica build to make use of it - but magica builds are crippled in PVP and an this OPish magica set will somehow improve the balance.

magorim

I'm not denying that I could have avoided some of the damage, I know, I really do and I'm not complaining that I died to it (I said that I was lagging and that I wasn't able to weapon swap like I wanted to, it is what it is and I'm not playing since yesterday). But still, two pieces of armor doing so much damage for free is stupid. No matter how long the cooldown is. We're talking about two pieces of armor doing this damage for you. Hell, you just need to be a bit lucky and have a crit with a light attack to proc that damage. A freakin' light attack compared to actually building ultimate and use it in the right time. But yeah, it has a cooldown, that makes it balanced and fun to play against it. I understand.

Two pieces of armor doing the damage compared to actually building ultimate and useing it in the right time is totally fine because cooldown. Ridiculous.

Morgul667

Zaan is broken for obvious reasons
OP in PVE and PVP by far

People who dont want it adjusted probably just want to benefit from it a little longer before it gets adjusted

That does not make it right or balanced

PureEnvelope35

Feanor wrote: »

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

Obligatory Git Gud scrub.
How bout no. PvE has had to suffer through nerf after nerf after nerf because you PvP sweaties cry about everything that kills you as "overpowered". It is easy to counter. Just roll/streak backwards and get out of the 10m range, force it into a reset.

PvP QQ? Just squint a little and you’ll see the perspective that having Armour play the game for you isn’t good for PvE either.

^ This, atm class balance isn't the issue, its the fact that for a build to work you need a specific set of gear, set balance is something that needs to be improved immensely. Build Diversity would be far better and more interesting/ fun for all players, rather than us having to use specific sets for PvP and PvE.

Ajaxduo

It literally takes one roll dodge and a few steps to break it. People claiming it is OP in PvE, it's not really that big of a deal. You'll rarely slot it tbh.

Turelus

Feanor wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

This is why we can't have nice things. It's 19k damage over time. The burst potential (assuming the 19k is accurate) is 19k/5s or <4K DPS. I've seen vigor heal more than 4K/s, and shields can mitigate much more than this.

Then there's the cooldown of 15s, so Zaan is only doing 19k/15s or around 1.3K DPS on average (in PVP, this is doubled for PVE).

There's the obvious counter of moving out of the beam before it ramps up the damage. 10m is not far to break. There are plenty of skills available to create distance.

It is actually pretty nice to have something that makes melee builds have to think twice before spamming gap closers to stay on top of Magicka builds.

Have fun getting away from a MagDK with Zaan as Magicka char.

There are no MagDK's, they died with Dragon Bones update.

Qbiken

Morgul667 wrote: »

Zaan is broken for obvious reasons
OP in PVE and PVP by far

People who dont want it adjusted probably just want to benefit from it a little longer before it gets adjusted

That does not make it right or balanced

Haven´t tried it in PvP so can´t speak for it there.

PvE-wise I imagine the set was made for magicka-builds that want to be more competitive (Melee magplar and magDK) to melee stamina builds. But I can´t see anyone choosing a melee magicka over a melee stamina build, even with Zaan equipped. MagDK is absolutely horrible this patch for PvE. Magplar is more useful than before so Zaan is definitely a viable monster set for them. But even with Zaan you´re not even close to melee stamina builds.

My conclusion: For PvE it´s an ok set, good in boss-fights but less useful in trash. It´s not OP since it´s usefulness is limited to few magicka classes that benefits from melee playstyle (aka magplar).

DRAGON_KILLER_HUNTER

You should increase your resistance to this element (fire).

MasterPleb

PureEnvelope35 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

Obligatory Git Gud scrub.
How bout no. PvE has had to suffer through nerf after nerf after nerf because you PvP sweaties cry about everything that kills you as "overpowered". It is easy to counter. Just roll/streak backwards and get out of the 10m range, force it into a reset.

PvP QQ? Just squint a little and you’ll see the perspective that having Armour play the game for you isn’t good for PvE either.

^ This, atm class balance isn't the issue, its the fact that for a build to work you need a specific set of gear, set balance is something that needs to be improved immensely. Build Diversity would be far better and more interesting/ fun for all players, rather than us having to use specific sets for PvP and PvE.

i agree, the issue isn't the class balance anymore at this point because you can't even get close to class balancing at this point with all these sets that do 90% of the work for you. we should start with balancing out certain sets first (not only talking about zaan here).

Masel

It was only a matter of time until people from PvP cried about it.

No, it does not need to be adjusted. I tested it in all newer trials on my melee magplar (yes i used one in trials), and it is not really efffective, as the newer trials and dungeons require a lot of movement, during which Zaan will not really do anything for you and you'd be better of using 5+5+1 or valkyn skoria.

MehrunesFlagon

Carbonised wrote: »

You were standing in stupid for 6 ticks. 6 ticks of anything, heals, shields, could have mitigated that damage. And lastly, you could have broken the beam and the set would have done 0 damage and been on cooldown. I don't see this being anyone's fault but your own.

We had the same issue wit Malubeth.People just refuse to use their heads.Difference here is that Vaan is difficult to obtain atm.

Masel

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

You were standing in stupid for 6 ticks. 6 ticks of anything, heals, shields, could have mitigated that damage. And lastly, you could have broken the beam and the set would have done 0 damage and been on cooldown. I don't see this being anyone's fault but your own.

We had the same issue wit Malubeth.People just refuse to use their heads.Difference here is that Vaan is difficult to obtain atm.

Not really, you get it on non-HM, which isnt really difficult to beat

Drazkyth

As someone who plays both PvE and PvP rather equally, I am sick and tired of the constant cries for nerfs from the PvP only crowd. As others have stated Zaan is quite easily countered. If you can't counter it and you are killed then you were simply outdone by a superior opponent (If it was a 1v1). Accept it and learn from your mistakes.

Juhasow

Try Zaan with Elf Bane

Beardimus

Whilst I could see the way the thread would go, I do think OP has a point but the point in general is around the power Proc sets have in the game.

Personally id prefer them removed, PvE and PvP alike. There's zero skill in your armour killing things, its what weapons are for.

It's embarrassing when the PvE crew start talking about how unfair it is they get Nerfs..i mean its not like the game is hard for PvE players, beyond a very small % of content PvE is pretty straight forward to steam roll on any half baked setup. And if you need a Proc set to be OP for you to be good in PvE, well..... Then its those players they need to get gud not the OP.

MehrunesFlagon

Masel92 wrote: »

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

You were standing in stupid for 6 ticks. 6 ticks of anything, heals, shields, could have mitigated that damage. And lastly, you could have broken the beam and the set would have done 0 damage and been on cooldown. I don't see this being anyone's fault but your own.

We had the same issue wit Malubeth.People just refuse to use their heads.Difference here is that Vaan is difficult to obtain atm.

Not really, you get it on non-HM, which isnt really difficult to beat

There alot that can't even beat vet I'm sure.

Feanor

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

You were standing in stupid for 6 ticks. 6 ticks of anything, heals, shields, could have mitigated that damage. And lastly, you could have broken the beam and the set would have done 0 damage and been on cooldown. I don't see this being anyone's fault but your own.

We had the same issue wit Malubeth.People just refuse to use their heads.Difference here is that Vaan is difficult to obtain atm.

No the issue with Malubeth was that it didn't respect Battle Spirit and was giving 15k heal procs even if you immediately broke the beam.

BohnT

Before anyone from PvE comes here and says: Mah precious Zaan i need the 2k extra dps for reasons, dam pvpers always ruin the fun yadayadayada.

Read this post: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/394278/pve-pvp-nerfs#latest

You haven't even put one foot into pvp but claim to know how every set works in all situations versus all classes.

1. You cannot break the set with LoS and you can't get away 10m to break the beam it's not possible in a fight where the caster actually follows you which he'll do because it deals the most damage you can get on any build
2. When Zaan is applied to you you need all healing to only outheal Zaan, every further damage will go straight through and kill you.
3. the damage of Zaan is absolutely ridiculous, a heal build with Zaan can hit for 25k damage while the same build deals 4k damage with a meteor. I did some testing to see how much damage i could get with Zaan and i ended up with a 39k damage on a player over 5 seconds, that is 8k dps from a single proc, 8k dps in pvp is something you'll never have against a player with a full damage build but with Zaan you can get 5k dps easily on builds which were unable to kill anything on their own
4. Dps matters here as it implies the pressure on the healing of your enemy, stamina chars look at an average 2,5-3.5k hps now we compare that to 5k damage per second and we see that one 2pc set is enough to completely remove each and all healing while you can still attack your target

This set is beyond op along with Caluurion’s that hits for 6-8k each proc and needs to be nerfed in these ways:

Lower the range to 5m
Reduce the damage increase per tick to 25% and increase the duration to 9 seconds (~same dps)