Why Grim Focus and Morphs Feel Different

LZH

Credit to deevah for figuring this out.


For whatever reason, ZOS made it so that light attack stacks from Grim Focus now register when light attacks hit the target, rather than when they are cast by your character.

This makes it so that with something like dual wield the skill still feels like it did last patch because light attacks still register instantly. It's also the reason why using a bow or a staff it feels like the skill is lagging behind, because your light attacks do not register immediately.

Hopefully we can revert back to the way it was last patch.

Rohamad_Ali

Another thread was made reporting the stacks have a slight delay even after hitting . This is what I am noticing to . The skill also bugs on spectral bow sometimes showing its proced but does not fire spectral bow , just refreshing the timer sometimes .

LiquidPony

LZH wrote: »

Credit to deevah for figuring this out.


For whatever reason, ZOS made it so that light attack stacks from Grim Focus now register when light attacks hit the target, rather than when they are cast by your character.

This makes it so that with something like dual wield the skill still feels like it did last patch because light attacks still register instantly. It's also the reason why using a bow or a staff it feels like the skill is lagging behind, because your light attacks do not register immediately.

Hopefully we can revert back to the way it was last patch.

Hasn't it always been this way? I mean I'm not arguing that there is a longer delay now, but if the stacks registered when you *press* light attack, couldn't you just aim at the ground and charge up a Spectral Bow? Or wouldn't we get stacks even if the target dodged the light/heavy?

LZH

LiquidPony wrote: »

LZH wrote: »

Credit to deevah for figuring this out.


For whatever reason, ZOS made it so that light attack stacks from Grim Focus now register when light attacks hit the target, rather than when they are cast by your character.

This makes it so that with something like dual wield the skill still feels like it did last patch because light attacks still register instantly. It's also the reason why using a bow or a staff it feels like the skill is lagging behind, because your light attacks do not register immediately.

Hopefully we can revert back to the way it was last patch.

Hasn't it always been this way? I mean I'm not arguing that there is a longer delay now, but if the stacks registered when you *press* light attack, couldn't you just aim at the ground and charge up a Spectral Bow? Or wouldn't we get stacks even if the target dodged the light/heavy?

I think you had to actually be aiming at and in range of an enemy, so no you wouldn't be able to aim at the ground.

Datthaw

This makes so much sense, I couldn't put my finger on it last night. I just figured it was crappy cyro latency messing with my bow procs.

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Another thread was made reporting the stacks have a slight delay even after hitting . This is what I am noticing to . The skill also bugs on spectral bow sometimes showing its proced but does not fire spectral bow , just refreshing the timer sometimes .

This was happening to me CONSTANTLY but that makes sense now because I was always too trigger happy with my last proc.

BlackStormX

Yep, there really is a problem here. Spectral bow used to trigger instantly on fifth light attack cast, now it triggers only when light attack hits the target, which can be quite a while, since the enemy you're attacking can be quite far away from you. It's quite unpleasant, especially for magicka nightblade.

LiquidPony

LZH wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

LZH wrote: »

Credit to deevah for figuring this out.


For whatever reason, ZOS made it so that light attack stacks from Grim Focus now register when light attacks hit the target, rather than when they are cast by your character.

This makes it so that with something like dual wield the skill still feels like it did last patch because light attacks still register instantly. It's also the reason why using a bow or a staff it feels like the skill is lagging behind, because your light attacks do not register immediately.

Hopefully we can revert back to the way it was last patch.

Hasn't it always been this way? I mean I'm not arguing that there is a longer delay now, but if the stacks registered when you *press* light attack, couldn't you just aim at the ground and charge up a Spectral Bow? Or wouldn't we get stacks even if the target dodged the light/heavy?

I think you had to actually be aiming at and in range of an enemy, so no you wouldn't be able to aim at the ground.

But that still doesn't address the issue of the target dodging the attack or even dying before the attack impacts. It makes complete sense, even if it's inconvenient, that the light/heavy has to actually *hit* the target before counting towards your Grim Focus stack. And even the tool tip states "... hitting an enemy with 5 Light or Heavy Attacks ..."

On live on console (so no Dragon Bones), I frequently have to wait a split second after hitting my 5th light attack to ensure that I don't recast Relentless rather than proccing the bow. And that's on a stamblade in melee range.

@Izaki posted a thread about this back before the first Dragon Bones PTS patch: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4768035

You even made a comment on that thread:

LZH wrote:

Call me an elitist but firing merciless on the 5th light attack is a skill thing more than anything. If you get aggressive and use the skill early you'll pay for it. Practice makes perfect.

Izaki

LiquidPony wrote: »

LZH wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

LZH wrote: »

Credit to deevah for figuring this out.


For whatever reason, ZOS made it so that light attack stacks from Grim Focus now register when light attacks hit the target, rather than when they are cast by your character.

This makes it so that with something like dual wield the skill still feels like it did last patch because light attacks still register instantly. It's also the reason why using a bow or a staff it feels like the skill is lagging behind, because your light attacks do not register immediately.

Hopefully we can revert back to the way it was last patch.

Hasn't it always been this way? I mean I'm not arguing that there is a longer delay now, but if the stacks registered when you *press* light attack, couldn't you just aim at the ground and charge up a Spectral Bow? Or wouldn't we get stacks even if the target dodged the light/heavy?

I think you had to actually be aiming at and in range of an enemy, so no you wouldn't be able to aim at the ground.

But that still doesn't address the issue of the target dodging the attack or even dying before the attack impacts. It makes complete sense, even if it's inconvenient, that the light/heavy has to actually *hit* the target before counting towards your Grim Focus stack. And even the tool tip states "... hitting an enemy with 5 Light or Heavy Attacks ..."

On live on console (so no Dragon Bones), I frequently have to wait a split second after hitting my 5th light attack to ensure that I don't recast Relentless rather than proccing the bow. And that's on a stamblade in melee range.

@Izaki posted a thread about this back before the first Dragon Bones PTS patch: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4768035

Its actually REALLY weird on live right now. Like sometimes I'd be able to cast my Bow proc straight after my 5th light attack, whereas sometimes I need to wait for a bit. This is with DW so light attacks register almost instantly. Weird.

Merciless is even weirder, since you baiscally have to do 6 light attacks to proc the Bow, but then the 6th light attack lands after the Bow proc has been fired off, which means that its counted towards the next Bow proc. Its really weird and I'd rather everything was like last patch.

sirrmattus

Well, that is the way it should work. Why should your light attack count if it hasn't hit a target yet? Why should it count at all if it never hit the target? Don't advocate for something that was broken to be broken again.

LiquidPony

Izaki wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

LZH wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

LZH wrote: »

Credit to deevah for figuring this out.


For whatever reason, ZOS made it so that light attack stacks from Grim Focus now register when light attacks hit the target, rather than when they are cast by your character.

This makes it so that with something like dual wield the skill still feels like it did last patch because light attacks still register instantly. It's also the reason why using a bow or a staff it feels like the skill is lagging behind, because your light attacks do not register immediately.

Hopefully we can revert back to the way it was last patch.

Hasn't it always been this way? I mean I'm not arguing that there is a longer delay now, but if the stacks registered when you *press* light attack, couldn't you just aim at the ground and charge up a Spectral Bow? Or wouldn't we get stacks even if the target dodged the light/heavy?

I think you had to actually be aiming at and in range of an enemy, so no you wouldn't be able to aim at the ground.

But that still doesn't address the issue of the target dodging the attack or even dying before the attack impacts. It makes complete sense, even if it's inconvenient, that the light/heavy has to actually *hit* the target before counting towards your Grim Focus stack. And even the tool tip states "... hitting an enemy with 5 Light or Heavy Attacks ..."

On live on console (so no Dragon Bones), I frequently have to wait a split second after hitting my 5th light attack to ensure that I don't recast Relentless rather than proccing the bow. And that's on a stamblade in melee range.

@Izaki posted a thread about this back before the first Dragon Bones PTS patch: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4768035

Its actually REALLY weird on live right now. Like sometimes I'd be able to cast my Bow proc straight after my 5th light attack, whereas sometimes I need to wait for a bit. This is with DW so light attacks register almost instantly. Weird.

Merciless is even weirder, since you baiscally have to do 6 light attacks to proc the Bow, but then the 6th light attack lands after the Bow proc has been fired off, which means that its counted towards the next Bow proc. Its really weird and I'd rather everything was like last patch.

Hmm.

I have the same behavior on live on console (just for Relentless Focus, have not had issues with Merciless Resolve).

Half of the time, I can hit my fifth LA and instantly proc the bow. The other half, I have to wait like 1/4 of a second. I always attributed it to lag or poor performance ... completely solo on a target skeleton it's less common but when we're doing a full raid group parse on the 52mil skeleton, I have to be really, really careful with it or I'll recast Relentless.

Izaki

sirrmattus wrote: »

Well, that is the way it should work. Why should your light attack count if it hasn't hit a target yet? Why should it count at all if it never hit the target? Don't advocate for something that was broken to be broken again.

lol

LZH

LiquidPony wrote: »

LZH wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

LZH wrote: »

Credit to deevah for figuring this out.


For whatever reason, ZOS made it so that light attack stacks from Grim Focus now register when light attacks hit the target, rather than when they are cast by your character.

This makes it so that with something like dual wield the skill still feels like it did last patch because light attacks still register instantly. It's also the reason why using a bow or a staff it feels like the skill is lagging behind, because your light attacks do not register immediately.

Hopefully we can revert back to the way it was last patch.

Hasn't it always been this way? I mean I'm not arguing that there is a longer delay now, but if the stacks registered when you *press* light attack, couldn't you just aim at the ground and charge up a Spectral Bow? Or wouldn't we get stacks even if the target dodged the light/heavy?

I think you had to actually be aiming at and in range of an enemy, so no you wouldn't be able to aim at the ground.

But that still doesn't address the issue of the target dodging the attack or even dying before the attack impacts. It makes complete sense, even if it's inconvenient, that the light/heavy has to actually *hit* the target before counting towards your Grim Focus stack. And even the tool tip states "... hitting an enemy with 5 Light or Heavy Attacks ..."

On live on console (so no Dragon Bones), I frequently have to wait a split second after hitting my 5th light attack to ensure that I don't recast Relentless rather than proccing the bow. And that's on a stamblade in melee range.

@Izaki posted a thread about this back before the first Dragon Bones PTS patch: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4768035

Looking at my CWC magblade videos, it appears that the stack registers as soon as you cast the light attack, but the merciless proc has a split second delay before activating after reaching 5 stacks.

On live there is still a delay for the merciless proc, but there is also a delay for each stack registering, so it ends up being a double delay on the 5th light attack leading to your merciless proc.

Also, I might be crazy but I'm fairly sure merciless stacks still counted even when the light attack was dodged or landed after the enemy died. Which would make sense because now in vMA if you kill a mob you no longer receive a merciless stack - which is another problem altogether.



Finally, a lot of things make sense in the real world that do not translate well when put into a video game. Merciless might make more sense now, but it's definitely a step in the negative direction as far as gameplay.

LZH

sirrmattus wrote: »

Well, that is the way it should work. Why should your light attack count if it hasn't hit a target yet? Why should it count at all if it never hit the target? Don't advocate for something that was broken to be broken again.

I wouldn't say it was broken. I would say that previously using grim focus felt good gameplay-wise, and now it feels bad.

Waiting for projectiles to land when all of the projectiles have different travel times seems really counter-intuitive to what ZOS's goals were with Grim Focus for this patch.

Dojohoda

The skill does seem different.

Unsure about the dual wield versus staff light attack comparison though because of travel time of the melee versus ranged. But light attacks have to land to count, even before update.

Regarding the instant proc upon 5th light attack, yes, I concur that is how it worked. Perhaps that was unintended since, technically, a light attack, especially ranged, would not have landed upon cast.

I noticed some confusing cues from the skill icon, but have not sorted it out yet. I'm unsure if it is bugged or me not understanding how it works now.

Thanks for bringing up the topic. It seems bugged based on the comments here.

(I wish we still had the 4-la proc.)


((Off topic: @LZH grats on your nightblade 607,160 VMA!))

Supernatural

And there is more...

Now when you exit combat though, the stacks will reset back to 0. In Maelstrom, every time a new wave of adds is spawning, you are technically exiting combat, and thus your stacks will be reset back to 0. This is obviously something ZoS failed to take into consideration when changing Grim Focus.

Merciless Resolve: https://youtube.com/watch?v=elEBGR9d4Ko
Relentless Focus: https://youtube.com/watch?v=w-2SPZ6C34Q

And of course not to mention the insanely laggy and delayed barswaping

LZH

Supernatural wrote: »

And there is more...

Now when you exit combat though, the stacks will reset back to 0. In Maelstrom, every time a new wave of adds is spawning, you are technically exiting combat, and thus your stacks will be reset back to 0. This is obviously something ZoS failed to take into consideration when changing Grim Focus.

Merciless Resolve: https://youtube.com/watch?v=elEBGR9d4Ko
Relentless Focus: https://youtube.com/watch?v=w-2SPZ6C34Q

And of course not to mention the insanely laggy and delayed barswaping

Yeah nightblade is basically rip in vma/dsa with this change. Thanks for the videos.

LZH

Dojohoda wrote: »

The skill does seem different.

Unsure about the dual wield versus staff light attack comparison though because of travel time of the melee versus ranged. But light attacks have to land to count, even before update.

Regarding the instant proc upon 5th light attack, yes, I concur that is how it worked. Perhaps that was unintended since, technically, a light attack, especially ranged, would not have landed upon cast.

I noticed some confusing cues from the skill icon, but have not sorted it out yet. I'm unsure if it is bugged or me not understanding how it works now.

Thanks for bringing up the topic. It seems bugged based on the comments here.

(I wish we still had the 4-la proc.)


((Off topic: @LZH grats on your nightblade 607,160 VMA!))

Thank you!


I'm really hoping they fix it because a lot of the enjoyment of playing nightblade really seems like it disappeared with this change.

I'm all for making merciless easier to manage, but it is so clunky now haha.

DigitalEulogy

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Another thread was made reporting the stacks have a slight delay even after hitting . This is what I am noticing to . The skill also bugs on spectral bow sometimes showing its proced but does not fire spectral bow , just refreshing the timer sometimes .

I have had this happen as well but, prior to this patch i was seeing this issue.

technohic

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Another thread was made reporting the stacks have a slight delay even after hitting . This is what I am noticing to . The skill also bugs on spectral bow sometimes showing its proced but does not fire spectral bow , just refreshing the timer sometimes .

I noticed the icon changed like it was procced but had that before. Seemed to happen a lot more last night.

Just at a loss that they made this ability somehow more clunky while trying to add a QOL adjustment to it. That QOL adjustment also made it to where if I get a full stack, yet my target cloaks or dies to where I fall out of combat; its gone

NyassaV

Umm... We already know this? Multiple threads stating this have been made. It's a bug, but ZoS has had forever to fix it yet they haven't. NB's crit passive is broken too

Vermintide

Supernatural wrote: »

Now when you exit combat though, the stacks will reset back to 0.

Yup, this is pretty gutting.

Sort of a necessary change to prevent PVP abuse, can you imagine the salt if you opened up from stealth with a Spectral Bow you'd been holding onto for ten minutes? But they way they have implemented it just blows honestly.

I actually put this question to Gilliam during one of his PTS streams, but he seemed to misunderstood my question. The eventual answer is pretty disappointing as it turns out; it really should work so that your stack is preserved until the buff falls off.

LZH

Vermintide wrote: »

Supernatural wrote: »

Now when you exit combat though, the stacks will reset back to 0.

Yup, this is pretty gutting.

Sort of a necessary change to prevent PVP abuse, can you imagine the salt if you opened up from stealth with a Spectral Bow you'd been holding onto for ten minutes? But they way they have implemented it just blows honestly.

I actually put this question to Gilliam during one of his PTS streams, but he seemed to misunderstood my question. The eventual answer is pretty disappointing as it turns out; it really should work so that your stack is preserved until the buff falls off.

Maybe it disappears after being out of combat for 10 seconds? That would fix the issue in vMA and DSA and still hopefully not be exploitable in PVP.

Another option could be to increase the duration of Merciless Resolve to 22 seconds but removing the ability to save stacks between casts.

ol_BANK_lo

LZH wrote: »

Vermintide wrote: »

Supernatural wrote: »

Now when you exit combat though, the stacks will reset back to 0.

Yup, this is pretty gutting.

Sort of a necessary change to prevent PVP abuse, can you imagine the salt if you opened up from stealth with a Spectral Bow you'd been holding onto for ten minutes? But they way they have implemented it just blows honestly.

I actually put this question to Gilliam during one of his PTS streams, but he seemed to misunderstood my question. The eventual answer is pretty disappointing as it turns out; it really should work so that your stack is preserved until the buff falls off.

Maybe it disappears after being out of combat for 10 seconds? That would fix the issue in vMA and DSA and still hopefully not be exploitable in PVP.

Another option could be to increase the duration of Merciless Resolve to 22 seconds but removing the ability to save stacks between casts.

This. The skill should run out like any other skill...but not seconds after casting because out of combat between waves.

ol_BANK_lo

I was going to make a new magblade with the DLC, but these changes for no apparent reason don't make it sound fun. I don't need anymore characters, and making one that is already flawed doesn't seem like a good time. ZOS breaks another class.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

That would definitely explain why I am having a lot of issues with weaving the spectral bow proc as my 5th light attack. It definitely used to be that the bow proc would trigger the instant I hit my 5th light attack (assuming it was going to land), allowing me to weave with it. Now I almost feel like I have to actually wait for the bow to proc before I try to weave with it or there is about a 50/50 chance that I will just recast merciless instead of firing the bow. This makes it extremely difficult to reliably get 3 bow procs per cast of merciless. I find I am pressing this skill more, not less than before, which seems to be counter intuitive to what they were trying to accomplish.

Is this another attempt to raise the floor above the ceiling or is it an oversight? If I weaved as well as @LZH, I would be really pissed off right now. My weave is good enough to justify at least moderate to severe annoyance, even if I am not in full blown rage mode.

I really liked the idea behind the changes, as most human beings cant do what OP does on a mageblade. I do believe that Mericless acts as a skill barrier to the class for a lot of players. All that said, good ideas dont matter with execution this poor.

Yngol

LZH wrote: »

Vermintide wrote: »

Supernatural wrote: »

Now when you exit combat though, the stacks will reset back to 0.

Yup, this is pretty gutting.

Sort of a necessary change to prevent PVP abuse, can you imagine the salt if you opened up from stealth with a Spectral Bow you'd been holding onto for ten minutes? But they way they have implemented it just blows honestly.

I actually put this question to Gilliam during one of his PTS streams, but he seemed to misunderstood my question. The eventual answer is pretty disappointing as it turns out; it really should work so that your stack is preserved until the buff falls off.

Maybe it disappears after being out of combat for 10 seconds? That would fix the issue in vMA and DSA and still hopefully not be exploitable in PVP.

Another option could be to increase the duration of Merciless Resolve to 22 seconds but removing the ability to save stacks between casts.

To be fair, the tooltip always said "when you land a light or heavy attack"; so in ZOS' minds they fixed it lol but i get what you're saying, it feels weird in comparison to how it used to be

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Vermintide wrote: »

Supernatural wrote: »

Now when you exit combat though, the stacks will reset back to 0.

Yup, this is pretty gutting.

Sort of a necessary change to prevent PVP abuse, can you imagine the salt if you opened up from stealth with a Spectral Bow you'd been holding onto for ten minutes? But they way they have implemented it just blows honestly.

I actually put this question to Gilliam during one of his PTS streams, but he seemed to misunderstood my question. The eventual answer is pretty disappointing as it turns out; it really should work so that your stack is preserved until the buff falls off.

I think there is a simple work around to this, if they are up to the coding. The glaring potential for abuse is obviously the stealthed mageblade ganker with a bow proc queued up. All you have to do is make it so you cant sneak with your bow proc'ed. I think you could still allow them to cloak without too much trouble, just no sneak. Would have no effect on PVE, and would solve or at least extremely mitigate the potential PVP issue.

My solution would be this:
1. Revert the changes to how light attacks are registered
*2. Slightly increase the duration of the buff so that a good player can get three procs and recast merciless with no down time.
3. Make it so that as long as you recast merciless before it runs out, you dont lose your stack of light attacks.
4. Remove the tie to whether you are in or out of combat, it just messes things up (especially in the arenas).
5. Prevent a player from going into sneak while the bow is proc'ed and ready to fire.

*might not be needed if they dialed in the other 4 points, but I think even a 2 second increase would bring a lot more players into the "3 proc per cast" club in an actual raid scenario.

Edit: OP was apparently typing as I was typing. haha. A 2 second increase alone (no other changes) would probably do a lot for your average mageblade.

Dojohoda

I can only dream of weaving as marvelously as @LZH

I hope ZOS will smooth out (fix) the skill asap. I was hoping to finish VMA on my magblade for first time this winter.

LZH

Hollery wrote: »

Umm... We already know this? Multiple threads stating this have been made. It's a bug, but ZoS has had forever to fix it yet they haven't. NB's crit passive is broken too

Considering that it's an important issue that affects core gameplay mechanics I don't think there's an issue with having multiple threads for visibility.

If you don't like it don't read it.

Multiple threads have also been made with people showing off their costumes, but I'm not complaining.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Yngol wrote: »

LZH wrote: »

Vermintide wrote: »

Supernatural wrote: »

Now when you exit combat though, the stacks will reset back to 0.

Yup, this is pretty gutting.

Sort of a necessary change to prevent PVP abuse, can you imagine the salt if you opened up from stealth with a Spectral Bow you'd been holding onto for ten minutes? But they way they have implemented it just blows honestly.

I actually put this question to Gilliam during one of his PTS streams, but he seemed to misunderstood my question. The eventual answer is pretty disappointing as it turns out; it really should work so that your stack is preserved until the buff falls off.

Maybe it disappears after being out of combat for 10 seconds? That would fix the issue in vMA and DSA and still hopefully not be exploitable in PVP.

Another option could be to increase the duration of Merciless Resolve to 22 seconds but removing the ability to save stacks between casts.

To be fair, the tooltip always said "when you land a light or heavy attack"; so in ZOS' minds they fixed it lol but i get what you're saying, it feels weird in comparison to how it used to be

@Yngol
I hear ya. The thing is, it has never functioned that way. Also, the game determines whether the light attack is going to land the instant you hit your LMB as far as I can tell. The practical effect of this is that it become harder, not easier, for a mageblade to land 3 procs per cast in actual combat. With your nose on a target dummy, it doesnt matter so much, but in a raid, it is effectively a nerf for most competent players.

technohic

I imagine they won't lengthen the timer itself as its also tied to the buffs of Grim Focus but just putting a separate timer at the end of combat for a few seconds would work.

Honestly though; I am not as concerned with that as I am how clunky the weaves got. If they were to prioritize fixing one, for me I would choose the weaving.