ZOS, please detox this game a little bit. Show other people's CP up to a maximum of 160!

Meld777

Back when veteran ranks were still a thing, you could only see "VR16" as players' maximum level. However, CP still existed. Some people had 160, others had 1000. But no one could see the amount of people's CP. Once the VR ranks were gone, toxicity started (that didn't exist before):

* People getting insta-kicked from dungeon finder for low CP, usually most people below 400. It has become an established thing.
* "LFG XY 690+" - no matter if it's Vet DLC dungeons or normal trials. How are new people supposed to learn this way?
* The system forces players to blindly and skilllessly grind CP instead of playing the actual game and becoming better at one's class. One of the reasons I always encounter 690+ people in group finder that have zero idea what they are doing. Grinding CP makes no sense. A person without skill won't be able to utilize them effectively anyway. People should just play the game and gain CP naturally.

Prior to the VR removal, the grouping environment, be it zone or group finder, was much less toxic. The community was doing great.

ZOS, please consider making personal CP invisible to other players and only show max gear CP (10/20/.../150/160) as players' levels.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert

Apache_Kid

No way. Less transparency is not a good thing.

Voxicity

No

Marabornwingrion

Hell no!

Gorath

Yes please! The low cp kicking has to stop! Zos already broke the group damage addon, so that you can't see the exact dps of other players. And that addon was only causing kicks if the DDs were actually bad.

Now people are kicked for a number next to their name that has little to do with skill. It is in Zos interest to make their community less toxic. They have done it in the past (mentioned addon, miats nerf). They can do it again. And should!

MisterBigglesworth

No. Bring back group damage meters so people can be properly and legitimately kicked for low dps, not low CP.

LegendaryArcher

Yes!

gminkalis_ESO

No

You use the example LFG XY CP690. That is a group any low CP should specifically avoid no matter what the dungeon.
Don't join elite groups if you don't meet the requirements.

Meld777

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

No. Bring back group damage meters so people can be properly and legitimately kicked for low dps, not low CP.

I would actually prefer that. But it's never ever gonna happen, sadly.

Aliyavana

No

Rohamad_Ali

Just finish leveling up . It's not even hard anymore .

LordSemaj

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

No. Bring back group damage meters so people can be properly and legitimately kicked for low dps, not low CP.

I concur. We only want to kick the BAD dps players. Not everyone who is new to the game.

Danikat

If it wasn't CP they'd find some other number to use to judge and exclude other players.

Look at what happened with Guild Wars 2 - that game was designed with a very low skill ceiling and minimal equipment/character skill grind - basically the idea was that everyone would be on an equal footing in terms of their gear, skills available etc. and only player skill would differentiate people. As a result of that for a long time dungeon groups set a minimum achievement point requirement. Like CP there was no correlation between your ability to do dungeons and how many achievement points you had - and like CP the easiest way to get them was grinding in the open-world (in this case daily achievements).

The really crazy part? Dungeon elitists knew that - they knew their requirement was meaningless but they kept insisting on it anyway because they felt they had to have something, some way of excluding certain people (especially new players) from their groups. There was nothing they could ask for that actually proved you were any good at doing dungeons so they picked something with a numerical value and stuck with it.

That only ended because the game introduced raids so they moved onto doing those and demanding to see a certain number of raid tokens before you were allowed into the group. Slightly less arbitrary but even more effective at excluding new players since you couldn't get the tokens without completing raids.

It's the same in ESO - if they couldn't demand a certain amount of CP they'd find something else to use that serves the same purpose.

Nihility42

Nope. This is a bad idea. I've never been kicked from a dungeon since I hit CP 160 (cp 350 now, regardless of whther is was vet or normal. CP is part of knowing how good a player is

Meld777

Danikat wrote: »

if they couldn't demand a certain amount of CP they'd find something else to use that serves the same purpose.

Yes, and that something would be CP. Except it would be "LFG XY CP160+". Same way it was before the vet rank removal. Back then it was "LFG XY VR16". And that "VR16" could have had 160 or 1000 CP. But no one could see them, so they weren't used as a filter.

Of course there are achievements, and they are being used, and always have been. But it's a more fair and accurate measure than CP.

Diminish

No.

If you are the weakest link, you are getting voted rather you are CP160 or CP690 if there is a legitimate struggle to complete the content. I would expect nothing less from others directed towards me as well. I don't want to be that guy hindering a completion for the group.

ol_BANK_lo

no

Draxys

This is not a good idea, yet one more reason why the CP system has been bad for the game overall.

TequilaFire

Just kick everybody.

weg0

It’s not as bad as you are making it out to be. I only vote kick if it is someone spamming light attacks, tanking with no taunt, or <20k hp, healing with no burst or awareness, etc... poor players like that exist at all cp levels. Also, toxic players in general get the boot.

I would suggest, however, further limiting the random vet dungeons lower cp players can auto-queue into. No-one below cp160 should be rando-pugging RoM, ICP, CoS, or dungeons where low dps will dramatically impact chance for success/ completion time.

Gorath

Diminish wrote: »

No.

If you are the weakest link, you are getting voted rather you are CP160 or CP690 if there is a legitimate struggle to complete the content. I would expect nothing less from others directed towards me as well. I don't want to be that guy hindering a completion for the group.

This is wishful thinking. Ideally, this is how it would go if there was a worked-in group damage meter, so that every group member could see dps and hps of every other group member and themselves. But the reality is this: click here

In the linked thread, OP has kicked a 'low cp guy' because 'dps was just not there'. Yet, if you watch his video, the 'high cp guy' is wearing sword/shield and resto, spamming flame lash without weave and doing resto staff heavy attacks. The 'low cp guy' has a lightning staff. Definitely not a pro, but his heavy attacks clear the adds and he's weaving force pulse, most likely doing between 70 and 90% of group dps, while the 'high cp guy' does 4k a best. Yet, OP has kicked (or tried to kick, since group finder bugged) the 'low cp guy'. This is the problem with the system. It forces people to grind, resulting in complete garbage players like the 'high cp guy' and problems for decent, constantly-improving low cp players that wish to play and learn their class rather than blindly grind cp.

KingYogi415

Zos needs to add a training grounds so people can properly be vetted for vet dungeons.

I don't care what CP you have, if you cant pull 20k dps we can't get hard modes done.

VaranisArano

I think that its pretty pointless to judge people on their CP. If I'm going to kick someone from a random dungeon, its going to be because they failed at their chosen role.

However, the change you see was created by a lot more factors than just the removal of Vet Ranks and showing CP.

One Tamriel made a lot of changes.
You could group with players of all levels and alliances, not just your alliance and those who were close in level and still have the content work for everyone.
You could actually grind for your levels and CP without out-leveling quest content into pointlessness.

Back in my day when I was a lowly Vet Rank 6 player, I knew full well there was a huge experience gap between me and a Vet 16 player. Moreover, there was a huge content gap. The whole world was leveled and so there was stuff they could do that would kill me if I tried. Its a little hard to have a toxic group environment when:
A. The content is leveled. Low Levels, Vet Rank 6, and Vet Rank 16 players really didn't mix in the same content.
B. "This content is too high level and thus too difficult. Level up and come back later." was a legitimate piece of advice with an artificial miss chance enforcing it.

Now?
Opening up the world and making it so that we don't out-level quests created an opportunity for grinding that wasn't there before. This makes CP an unreliable measure of player experience.
With the removal of leveled areas and the artificial miss chance, any player with the right skills, gear, and player skill can complete any content.

So when the vet ranks were removed and everyone was now looking at CP, well, again, I knew that those guys with CP 600 (the previous vet rank 16) were far more experienced than my CP 300ish. Difference is, now we could all complete the same content. So where previously it was a matter of "if you are the right level to access the content, you can group up with us," it became a matter of "Do you have the experience to do the content?" with CP being what people looked at. This also means that people who do have that experience but happen to have low CP have issues. Before One Tamriel, they would have been locked out of harder content due to level. Now, its a matter of convincing people to give them a shot.

I'm not sure that locking everyone's visible CP at 160 is going to help. It won't stop the people from asking for experienced group members. At most, it'll buy new or noob players one fight before a judgmental group kicks them. It'll certainly make CP PVP interesting since you can't tell the level of people you are fighting anymore.

TLDR: Toxicity started when One Tamriel opened up content to everyone without locking it behind certain levels or vet ranks. 1T made grinding possible, devaluing CP as a mark of experience. 1T also made it so that any player with the right skills, gear, and player experience can complete any content regardless of level/CP. Its an interesting idea, to be sure, but I'm not sure that showing CP was the problem or that masking CP is the answer.

Rev Rielle

LordSemaj wrote: »

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

No. Bring back group damage meters so people can be properly and legitimately kicked for low dps, not low CP.

I concur. We only want to kick the BAD dps players. Not everyone who is new to the game.

Instead of kicking and being rude, you should ask them if they'd like any help and try to advise in a respectful, patient manner.
Be part of the solution moving towards a better community, not part of the problem of elitist trash in the game. Those are the bad players in most people's eyes.

LordSemaj

Gorath wrote: »

Diminish wrote: »

No.

If you are the weakest link, you are getting voted rather you are CP160 or CP690 if there is a legitimate struggle to complete the content. I would expect nothing less from others directed towards me as well. I don't want to be that guy hindering a completion for the group.

This is wishful thinking. Ideally, this is how it would go if there was a worked-in group damage meter, so that every group member could see dps and hps of every other group member and themselves. But the reality is this: click here

In the linked thread, OP has kicked a 'low cp guy' because 'dps was just not there'. Yet, if you watch his video, the 'high cp guy' is wearing sword/shield and resto, spamming flame lash without weave and doing resto staff heavy attacks. The 'low cp guy' has a lightning staff. Definitely not a pro, but his heavy attacks clear the adds and he's most likely doing between 70 and 90% of group dps, while the 'high cp guy' does 4k a best. Yet, OP has kicked (or tried to kick, since group finder bugged) the 'low cp guy'. This is the problem with the system. It forces people to grind, resulting in complete garbage players like the 'high cp guy' and problems for decent, constantly-improving low cp players that wish to play and learn their class rather than blindly grind cp.

The scenario you pointed out could have been avoided had the damage meters existed to know it was the high CP guy not pulling his weight.

Velvelya

I've never seen anyone get kicked "JUST" for being "Below 400" CP. Its because they either aren't doing enough dmg, or they aren't fulfilling their role adequately.

If I'm slotted as healer and people are continuously wiping because my heals are weak or ill timed, they have every right to kick me after its happened repeatedly. If DPS is taking too long to kill trash ads and everyone is wiping because of it then maybe they deserve the kick. If the tank isn't keeping agro or is dying despite the healer spamming all over them, Kick's fair.

If AFK too long, if not listening to directions, ect you might deserve to be booted. Its a group event and no one should have to carry one person.

If you're holding back 3 other people and they vote to kick, fairs fair.

That being said if you have 23 cp and we're in a vet Hardmode dungeon and you keep dying and people decide not to carry you...Well, rip. People only have so much patience and so much time to waste.

code65536

Some weeks ago, I got into a vCoS on my tertiary account that had about 250CP.

I was kicked the instant the group was formed. Didn't bother waiting for the first trash pull to see if I was competent. Didn't get a chance to look at my character and see that she had a vMA staff and the title for vFalkreath HM. Didn't have a chance for me to say, "I've done vCoS literally over a hundred times." Just got kicked unceremoniously, even though I probably would've done better than most of the CP-capped DPS you'd find in group finder.

Of course, an experienced player on an alt account is not a common thing, and of course most low-CP players are pretty inexperienced and bad. But I will never vote for a kick until at least after the first few trash pulls so I can see if they look like they know what they're doing or if they're one of those people spamming light attacks. And if they are really bad, then sure, I'm okay with kicking them, even if they are CP-capped.

But a lot of people don't give you that kind of courtesy. I got queued into a vWGT on a CP-capped account, and the group had a low-CP DPS. Before we even went up the ladder, someone in the group was trying to vote-kick them off. I vetoed every vote, and the idiot would just start another vote. Did they ever get tired of clicking Vote to Kick over and over and over, only for the vote to instantly fail each time? Right before the first boss, I got tired of vetoing every vote, and I said to the group that whoever is initiating the vote should stop wasting their time because the low-CP DPS looked like s/he was competent and was using what looked like an okay rotation of skills and I will not vote to kick someone just because they're low CP. The healer at that point ragequit--apparently they were the *** doing the nonstop votes. We picked up a replacement healer who was also low CP, and we cleared the vWGT. Was it rough in certain places? Sure. But how do you expect people to learn if you don't give them the chance to?

So yes, I fully support hiding the CP past 160. That was the way it used to be before the VR removal. And what it'll do is force people to actually look at the things that matter before kicking.

In short: I'm not against kicking players, per se. And you can still kick players if the display was limited to 160. But you'd be forced to either look at how they do on the initial trash or ask them if they are familiar with the dungeon. You'd be forced to kick someone based on merit instead of just a dumb number by their name. Apparently, this is too radical of an idea for most of the people in this thread.

Kanar

I'd be fine with this change. It's unfortunate that some people have thin skin and feel they need to grind to 690 just because they were kicked.

I will note, I don't recall ever being kicked for low CP and I leveled really slow. Just hit 690 and started at launch. Maybe it's more common on consoles...

VaranisArano

ZOS isn't going to let you have access to everyone else' DPS count. There's too much potential for griefing, naming-and-shaming, and harassment, and ZOS would like to avoid all that liability. If the group decides to share their DPS, that's one thing or you can extrapolate from your own addons like Combat Metrics what the other DPS are pulling, but there's a reason ZOS doesn't allow the add-on that shows individual group members' DPS anymore.

But, but... we'd all be noble and only use that group DPS for the greater good and make sure we're helping those poor lost souls with low DPS get better, if only we knew their DPS...

Sure.

Pwnyridah

This is a terrible idea. To detox, remove freeloaders by putting higher cp caps on tougher content. Put the time in and earn that cp!

Getern

Bring back Veteran Ranks. Make the game great again!!!

Cut that casual BS already.