General Poll on DK changes in the Public test server

Nelson_Rebel

I just want a clean poll. How do you feel about the DK changes/nerfs depending on your perspective or personal perception.

Here is my personal opinion.

I dislike it, and I don't think any class should be going through a steady patch of specific nerfs for 5 patches in a row. As a result I cancelled my ESO plus of 4 years (nearly 4 at least) and will not spend any more money on anything for crown purchases despite how much I already have.

To me there is a threshold of what I'm willing to accept. And turning a class into nothing but a "Hold Block" class is beyond unnacceptable, IN MY OPINION at least.

jaye63

DKs are already OP as is the GankBlade. Pretty soon no one will be killable. I dont know what the answer is but this isnt it. Buff toons for PvE and PvP suffers. So where is the solution? Dont ask me. I dont get paid to code.

huschdeguddzje

jaye63 wrote: »

DKs are already OP as is the GankBlade. Pretty soon no one will be killable. I dont know what the answer is but this isnt it. Buff toons for PvE and PvP suffers. So where is the solution? Dont ask me. I dont get paid to code.

Balance separately?

Tandor

Given that most players don't/can't play on the PTS, could someone who does please provide a clean (unbiased) statement of the changes and comment on how they work out in practice as opposed merely to how they read in the patch notes? It would be helpful if it was also explained which playstyles are most affected, e.g. PvP or competitive PvE etc.

DieAlteHexe

Tandor wrote: »

Given that most players don't/can't play on the PTS, could someone who does please provide a clean (unbiased) statement of the changes and comment on how they work out in practice as opposed merely to how they read in the patch notes? It would be helpful if it was also explained which playstyles are most affected, e.g. PvP or competitive PvE etc.

Yup, that would help.

Nelson_Rebel

Tandor wrote: »

Given that most players don't/can't play on the PTS, could someone who does please provide a clean (unbiased) statement of the changes and comment on how they work out in practice as opposed merely to how they read in the patch notes? It would be helpful if it was also explained which playstyles are most affected, e.g. PvP or competitive PvE etc.

Specifically, PvE Off-balance has a cooldown now of 20 seconds. Dk's now have to wait for Off-balance to proc Power lash for sustain.

Dk's cannot, and will not Sustain in any PvE scenario now outside dungeons. In trials they are useless

On top of that Power Lash received a 3 second cooldown as another nerf to PvP.

AardvarkChips

jaye63 wrote: »

DKs are already OP as is the GankBlade. Pretty soon no one will be killable. I dont know what the answer is but this isnt it. Buff toons for PvE and PvP suffers. So where is the solution? Dont ask me. I dont get paid to code.

PvP is a different server, already customized to allow for blocking out champion points. "Balance" PvP (cater to the squeakiest wheel) separately, and leave PvE players alone, for a change.

Mic1007

I'm turning my MagDK into a Healer once the patch drops.

Sigtric

Currently leveling a stamDK to have as an alternate to my mageblade for trials DPS. I've been lucky so far as I've been able to take my mDK to trials but I just don't think I'll be able to anymore. The amount of effort it takes to make the mDK DPS viable in a valuable melee slot is bad enough with out these changes.

Might just respec my mDK dps into a tank for this patch. Who knows. I love the character and don't want to stop playing it.

jaye63

AardvarkChips wrote: »

jaye63 wrote: »

DKs are already OP as is the GankBlade. Pretty soon no one will be killable. I dont know what the answer is but this isnt it. Buff toons for PvE and PvP suffers. So where is the solution? Dont ask me. I dont get paid to code.

PvP is a different server, already customized to allow for blocking out champion points. "Balance" PvP (cater to the squeakiest wheel) separately, and leave PvE players alone, for a change.

I PvP very little, but enough to see where things are out of whack. And with the fact that you either have to reset your skills/attributes/gear if you're going to do both PvP and PvE or just make seperate toons, I realize just how much tweaking for PvP effects PvE and vsv. I also know enough about coding and the differences across game companies not to offer a solution.

Integral1900

Hard to say. On live my dk is basicaly buff, aoe, aoe, aoe, dot, heavy attack, rinse repeat so it makes no diffrence to me in terms of dps that I can tell pts or live, I don’t like the look or sound of the skill so I never used it. However... in terms of flexibility and user friendliness there is a growing gap, especially in sustain, small but persistent. My stam dk tank/dps combo is pulling further and further ahead for me in terms of balancing use-ability, effectiveness and just sheer charisma. I’ve been looking for an excuse to drop the magic dk and this might be it, it just feels a bit dull somehow, a bit like a lightning sorc, it still works fine but as it’s getting less sustain it just seems like it’s going to end up as another heavy attack zombie. I like the odd heavy in the rotation, they look great and provide a nice beat to the fight as long as there aren’t to many, but now I need more of them and it’s making rotations a pain. I don’t do vet hard mode or trials anymore but I think that’s where you are realy going to feel it. Players like me on normal or vet will manage fine

Grabmoore

I will (honestly) respec my MagDK to a off tank/ crafter once patch drops. I already leveled a MagBlade to max and will play her as DPS in trials. MagDKs are dead in PvE end game. Not even semi progress teams will take them for score runs now.

Armitas

Dang DK's are still getting nerfed? Lol, unbelievable.

Sergykid

i wouldn't argue until the live natch potes come. Also, DKs are OP by default, not the mag version only. I would even make absorb shields crittable, this doesn't bother PVPers?

as for PVP balance, a PVE boss will never cry cuz a class has too much utility or damage. Classes should be adjusted to be as balanced as possible for a PVP matter, then adjust the PVE bosses according to this.

Rex-Umbra

DKs are fine on pts

Kalante

The only thing left is mag templars that can spam what's basically instant rally burst heals at will. More dying=less pvp lag.

MAKE CYRODIIL GREAT AGAIN

Jade1986

Id vote if i knew what the changes are. Perhaps you should enlighten us that dont play PTS?

Sixty5

I pulled better numbers with my DK on pts than I did on live servers. And that is without Zaan, a monster set that deals ~45k flame damage in melee range.

Plus DKs are still disgusting in pvp, regardless of what anyone says.

Elsonso

I shelved my main DK back in 2015 after two consecutive nerfs, and now he is just a crafter. When I want to play more seriously, I generally use a MagSorc. I have several of them with different builds.

Kwik1

Sergykid wrote: »

i wouldn't argue until the live natch potes come. Also, DKs are OP by default, not the mag version only. I would even make absorb shields crittable, this doesn't bother PVPers?

as for PVP balance, a PVE boss will never cry cuz a class has too much utility or damage. Classes should be adjusted to be as balanced as possible for a PVP matter, then adjust the PVE bosses according to this.

No.

PvE is still where most of the population adventures which IMHO means they should get the most balance attention.

PvP should be balanced for itself in ways that whatever changes made do not impact PvE but should always be secondary. Again, 70-80% of balance passes should focus on PvE since that is the bread and butter of the game.

If you were in DAoC or any PvPcentric game then yes, PvP should be where it is balanced, but not in a game where most players are in PvE.

Keep in mind I am not saying DK's didn't get shafted as I don't really know myself. I do know Whip needed a CD absolutely, but the of balance changes are going to hurt.

Voxicity

I liked them because it made me try out magplar which I'm loving so far

Aedaryl

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

I just want a clean poll. How do you feel about the DK changes/nerfs depending on your perspective or personal perception.

Here is my personal opinion.

I dislike it, and I don't think any class should be going through a steady patch of specific nerfs for 5 patches in a row. As a result I cancelled my ESO plus of 4 years (nearly 4 at least) and will not spend any more money on anything for crown purchases despite how much I already have.

To me there is a threshold of what I'm willing to accept. And turning a class into nothing but a "Hold Block" class is beyond unnacceptable, IN MY OPINION at least.

This is a stupid poll, if you didn't noticed dk got buffed in PvP, then go on PTS and L2P.

Changes/nerfs is biased. Reality is PvP buff and PvE DD nerf.

Sabbathius

I dislike the changes.

Now, don't get me wrong. I like what they're doing with making abilities more sensible, for example. That is, things that make sense to be dodgeable will be dodgeable. That's nice. I like that. We shouldn't need to read the tooltips or worse yet scour third party websites to find out what is blockable, what is dodgeable, etc. It should be intuitive. Kudos. BUT the way they did it? Very amateurish and short-sighted.

Take Searing Strikes. Should it be dodgeable? Yes! But it's not just a damage skill, it is also a healing skill. And not only that, it's a delayed healing skill. And not only that, but it's a melee skill. So, to recap, they took a melee delayed healing skill and made it dodgeable. Too many negatives. Needs to be re-evaluated.

Same thing with Power Lash. Should it be dodged? Sure, makes total sense. It's a whip. Dodge it, block it, whatever. BUT this skill requires a specific setup to even become available. And slapping a 3 sec cooldown on it goes directly against the "no cooldowns!" spirit of the game. If we start slapping cooldowns on skills, how about 5 sec CD on BoL? Huh? Would you guys like that? I'm go ahead and guess no. Why not? Well, because it's ESO, not WoW. Don't go down that road, because you'll lose - Blizz has been doing it for a decade and a half, and they're way better at it than ZOS is. Lack of cooldowns is what made ESO unique. So the change feels lazy and slapped together last-minute. It's not even a proper bandaid, they just licked a piece of paper and slapped it on.

I really wish ZOS would re-evaluate how they do things. It's fine to make changes to game mechanics. But you have to fix the classes impacted by these changes immediately. Not 3-4 months down the road. NOW. In the same patch. If you can't, then delay the changes to game mechanics until you can. It's just that simple. And if your staff can't do it, then you need new, better staff.

Vesper_BR

I'm playing the division... Thinking about canceling my eso plus too...

Lynx7386

Voted indifferent, but I actually have to agree with some of the changes.

Offbalance cooldown and the internal 3 second cooldown on power lash both seem like sensible changes to me. Fact of the matter is that magdk had an ability (power lash) which was free to cast, did massive damage, and healed the user. That is unbalanced no matter what way you slice it, especially since no other class has anything similar. Everything else costs resources and has limitations.

You still have a free ability that you can use when the target is offbalance and offers major damage and healing in one button press. You simply wont have it 100% of the time now.

DK's arent going to have their sustain killed by this, they'll learn to sustain the same way other classes do. You still get resources back (a huge chunk) whenever you use an ultimate, make use of that instead of spamming power lash all the time. Heavy attack. Use potions. Regear for some recovery. Those are things every class has to deal with, and DK should be no exception.

Yamenstein

Sorry what were the DK changes? They didn't change much for them.

DDuke

Tandor wrote: »

Given that most players don't/can't play on the PTS, could someone who does please provide a clean (unbiased) statement of the changes and comment on how they work out in practice as opposed merely to how they read in the patch notes? It would be helpful if it was also explained which playstyles are most affected, e.g. PvP or competitive PvE etc.

Right, can't comment about PvE (I very, very rarely do anything there with my mDK), but in PvP here's how it's going to play out.

It's important we look at how it works on Live:
You proc Off Balance by using Flame Lash on someone who is stunned or rooted. This triggers a 5 second cooldown until you can set the target Off Balance again.
After setting target Off Balance, you get to use the undodgeable Power Lash, which then immediately consumes the Off Balance preventing further Power Lashes until you set target Off Balance again.

So in a realistic scenario, you get one Off Balance/Power Lash every 7 seconds with Fossilize (CC immunity) or every 5 seconds with the root from talons.

The only exception to this is the lightning staff build which can set people Off Balance more often (if they stand in your Wall of Elements).


On PTS, you proc Off Balance just like you do on Live, but it is no longer consumed by the Power Lash unless you hit someone who's not CC immune (i.e. Talons>Flame Lash>Power Lash), in which case the target gets stunned for 2 seconds (like mobs in PvE do on Live). The Off Balance on PTS also has no cooldown, so you can trigger it again right after consuming it, or even refresh it to keep 100% uptime.

In practice, what this means is that Fossilize->Flame Lash gets you two Power Lashes with 3 second interval inbetween, where as on Live you'd have to wait for 5-7 seconds before your next Power Lash.

The only real downside being introduced in the patch is the dodgeability, which mostly affects fights vs medium armor opponents. Against others, it's a big buff for mDKs.

It's also a buff to sustain against all builds (even vs dodge rollers), since you're using a free ability every 3 seconds rather than every 5-7 seconds, leading to less magicka/second spent on average.


You still get the heal portion even if the Power Lash is dodged, and the heal duration (and strength) has been doubled on PTS.


I've had zero problems on PTS against any medium armor build, and I've noticed fights vs heavy armor & light armor builds have become easier for mDK there.

Obviously only duels could be tested as there's no functional 1vX or XvX environment there.


Oh, and I'd be remiss not to mention how as stamina DK you can use Power Lash as your CC in PvP next patch.

1. Get Tactician CP.
2. Slot Shuffle.
3. Target gets Off Balance every time an attack is dodged (by Shuffle or naturally by dodge rolling).
4. You can now use free cost Power Lash that has a heal stronger than Vigor (even on a stamina DK) & deals some decent dmg too as your CC. Thanks to the Off Balance changes, it will stun a non-CC immune target.

Jjitsuboy98

DDuke wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Given that most players don't/can't play on the PTS, could someone who does please provide a clean (unbiased) statement of the changes and comment on how they work out in practice as opposed merely to how they read in the patch notes? It would be helpful if it was also explained which playstyles are most affected, e.g. PvP or competitive PvE etc.

Right, can't comment about PvE (I very, very rarely do anything there with my mDK), but in PvP here's how it's going to play out.

It's important we look at how it works on Live:
You proc Off Balance by using Flame Lash on someone who is stunned or rooted. This triggers a 5 second cooldown until you can set the target Off Balance again.
After setting target Off Balance, you get to use the undodgeable Power Lash, which then immediately consumes the Off Balance preventing further Power Lashes until you set target Off Balance again.

So in a realistic scenario, you get one Off Balance/Power Lash every 7 seconds with Fossilize (CC immunity) or every 5 seconds with the root from talons.

The only exception to this is the lightning staff build which can set people Off Balance more often (if they stand in your Wall of Elements).


On PTS, you proc Off Balance just like you do on Live, but it is no longer consumed by the Power Lash unless you hit someone who's not CC immune (i.e. Talons>Flame Lash>Power Lash), in which case the target gets stunned for 2 seconds (like mobs in PvE do on Live). The Off Balance on PTS also has no cooldown, so you can trigger it again right after consuming it, or even refresh it to keep 100% uptime.

In practice, what this means is that Fossilize->Flame Lash gets you two Power Lashes with 3 second interval inbetween, where as on Live you'd have to wait for 5-7 seconds before your next Power Lash.

The only real downside being introduced in the patch is the dodgeability, which mostly affects fights vs medium armor opponents. Against others, it's a big buff for mDKs.

It's also a buff to sustain against all builds (even vs dodge rollers), since you're using a free ability every 3 seconds rather than every 5-7 seconds, leading to less magicka/second spent on average.


You still get the heal portion even if the Power Lash is dodged, and the heal duration (and strength) has been doubled on PTS.


I've had zero problems on PTS against any medium armor build, and I've noticed fights vs heavy armor & light armor builds have become easier for mDK there.

Obviously only duels could be tested as there's no functional 1vX or XvX environment there.


Oh, and I'd be remiss not to mention how as stamina DK you can use Power Lash as your CC in PvP next patch.

1. Get Tactician CP.
2. Slot Shuffle.
3. Target gets Off Balance every time an attack is dodged (by Shuffle or naturally by dodge rolling).
4. You can now use free cost Power Lash that has a heal stronger than Vigor (even on a stamina DK) & deals some decent dmg too as your CC. Thanks to the Off Balance changes, it will stun a non-CC immune target.

Still be hard to choose over reverb wouldn't it as heal debuffs are so powerful.

Thunderknuckles

I work all the time and haven't had a chance to read what changes they're making. Can someone learn me sumpin' on this? Edited to mention: Please disregard. Someone had posted the info right above my comment. LOL

Narvuntien

My thoughts are complicated because I don't think MagDks should be forced to use one ability Power Lash to be able to sustain.

I do play MagDk.... I use Molten Whip.... and always have and I want to stop being punished for picking the more synergistic morph. Give me some better sustain!

So the nerfs would not be a problem if only they would buff other parts of the MagDKs kit, there is still time, so I reserve my judgement.