The real reason why people are so negative when new patches come out.

dsalter

Sabbathius wrote: »

In most games, I look forward to new patch notes. Sure, some nerfs are inevitable, and some changes I might disagree with, but usually it's well within tolerable limits. And often, on closer inspection, and following much discussion, I can actually see the sense in a lot of these changes.

ESO is the exception to this rule, and each time I see a new patch I literally DREAD what new level of nonsense it is about to bestow upon us. Case in point, this latest patch and the new brilliant "tactical" interrupt scheme. Which is SO BAD that they have been creating exceptions for this NEW ruleset every single PTS patch! First they had to make an exception for rezzing. Then they had to make an exception for battleground pick-ups. And so on. Here's a hint, guys: if you made a system, but to keep the game functional you have to immediately have to start creating exceptions for this new ruleset, then the system is BAD! Go back to the drawing board, and try again! Don't just take an ill-conceived idea, patch it haphazardly with exceptions to make it fit, and just jam it in there.

And that's just the INTENTIONAL stuff! Look at all the unintentional stuff just this PTS cycle again. First they give us a new off-balance system to test, and for the first 2 weeks the way it works is broken, so we can't test it. Now, this week's patch broke all CC/CC breaking. Oh, sure, they're aware it's a problem, and will fix it. NEXT WEEK! So what are we doing this week? Twiddling our thumbs, that's what. Most other companies would have a fix if not the same day, then within a couple of days. Even if the problem is too big to quickly solve, they would at least reverse the change so that testing can continue while they re-implement the feature that broke the system in the first place. But not ZOS. If it's screwed this week, we're lucky to see a patch fix it next week. By comparison, Blizzard would often hotfix it within hours.

Finally, the worst offender is the sense that they really have no idea what they're doing sometimes. Some changes are just baffling. Their intent may be sensible, but the way they attempt to solve the issue is often nonsensical and ineffective, and only creates additional issues without solving the issue it was intending to solve in the first place. Honestly, I could live with all of the above, except for this. THIS is the one I have hardest time with. With some developers, my faith in their decision-making is bordering on absolute. Even if I don't see it, I know enough to know that there IS a reason, and it works. Because past performance proved it time and time again. But not with these guys.

And the final pet peeve is that their priorities are just way off, which also adds to the negativity of seeing them. I mean, don't get me wrong, the new Barbie Dress-Up system is nice and all. But that's something you add to the game that already runs like a Swiss watch. Not something you do for a game that has many mechanical and balance and performance issues, and is still very low on basic quality of life features. But compared to the rest, this is barely a bleep on the radar.

sucks to read that.
hits harder knowing its true.

Grimm13

Others (Comment bellow your opinion).

As you stated the major reason for the nerfs is PvP that ends up harming PvE. I would like to see an end to that cycle. Best way is to separate how the skills play between PvP and PvE.

In PvE the only time a nerf is really needed to the skills is when they have introduced a new line and find that it's not exactly as they had envisioned or a flaw comes to lights that was unforeseen. If a piece of equipment is added that changes the balance then you nerf the equipment. A NPC or Boss doesn't scream how unfair one character or another is in a dungeon because of balance, one class or another may shine or be wrecked as the situation applies. Zos can adjust a NPC or Boss power as they like to patch a unforeseen use and nod not have to nerf the PvE skill lines as a whole.

The environment for PvP is restricted as it is not in open world and so the PvP and PvE skill applications do not meet. Easy enough to have the system use the PvP balance adaptations in all PvP environments, such as Cyrodill, mini games, duels. Players still will know what a power lash would do as it is still basically the same just adjusted for balance. Players are already adjusting as PvP play style is different since you have other players that can do whatever within their choices and not NPC's set in a routine.

To me this makes the most sense.

Pr0Skygon

I liked some nerfs, but also hate some.

lordrichter wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

I don't know about you guys, but for me ESO has always been a power fantasy game, which is reasonable for a fantasy RPG. I play ESO to feel powerful, not to be stuffed into a box, and be told what I should be, and can't be. That's actually what ZOS promised us when they first announced ESO, "play as you want". But lately, I've seen that concept been driven out by ZOS, update by update.

I think a lot of people have the wrong idea about "play as you want". Play as you want means that you can complete a lot of the game without optimal builds. Some builds are easier. Some builds are harder. You can do the full range of builds. That is "play as you want". It does not mean that every build is top of the line for every purpose. It does not mean that every one of the 10 classes is good at the three traditional dungeon roles. It does mean you are free to try, although, some end game content might be extremely challenging.

It does not mean "win doing whatever you want to do."

What is happening here is that ESO is not really designed to be "balanced". I doubt that it ever will be. I hope that it never will be. I can't imagine a more boring game. I am perfectly fine with entire classes being not the best suited for certain roles.

Moving on... Players seek out their own boxes and place themselves in those boxes. These boxes exist, not because ZOS wants people to be boxed into certain roles, but because the players create them. They love the boxes. They spend a lot of time talking about them, and shun those who don't join them. Non-conformists are ridiculed here on the forum almost daily.

The real reason why people are so negative when new patches come out is that they are too comfortable in their box. ZOS comes along and shakes the box. ZOS shakes the box because the box itself is not important. Other factors are more important than the box. People don't like their box disturbed. They want ZOS to kick someone else's box.

Anyway, that is my theory.

Even though I disagree with your idea of "play as you want", I can't say that it ain't true in the case of ESO

Pr0Skygon

I liked some nerfs, but also hate some.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

I was a fan of the whole "were only going to mess with classes during major updates so people don't have to re gear etc." thing, until it translated to

"some of your characters might be useless or broken until the next major update but this is for your convenience"

My magWarden is still level 6, since July. Everyone knows why.

*This is not my parse, I stink at magic.*

Well my sorc pet parse is 41K. But damme, 35K on a magWarden is an achievement on its own

Pr0Skygon

I liked some nerfs, but also hate some.

Sabbathius wrote: »

In most games, I look forward to new patch notes. Sure, some nerfs are inevitable, and some changes I might disagree with, but usually it's well within tolerable limits. And often, on closer inspection, and following much discussion, I can actually see the sense in a lot of these changes.

ESO is the exception to this rule, and each time I see a new patch I literally DREAD what new level of nonsense it is about to bestow upon us. Case in point, this latest patch and the new brilliant "tactical" interrupt scheme. Which is SO BAD that they have been creating exceptions for this NEW ruleset every single PTS patch! First they had to make an exception for rezzing. Then they had to make an exception for battleground pick-ups. And so on. Here's a hint, guys: if you made a system, but to keep the game functional you have to immediately have to start creating exceptions for this new ruleset, then the system is BAD! Go back to the drawing board, and try again! Don't just take an ill-conceived idea, patch it haphazardly with exceptions to make it fit, and just jam it in there.

And that's just the INTENTIONAL stuff! Look at all the unintentional stuff just this PTS cycle again. First they give us a new off-balance system to test, and for the first 2 weeks the way it works is broken, so we can't test it. Now, this week's patch broke all CC/CC breaking. Oh, sure, they're aware it's a problem, and will fix it. NEXT WEEK! So what are we doing this week? Twiddling our thumbs, that's what. Most other companies would have a fix if not the same day, then within a couple of days. Even if the problem is too big to quickly solve, they would at least reverse the change so that testing can continue while they re-implement the feature that broke the system in the first place. But not ZOS. If it's screwed this week, we're lucky to see a patch fix it next week. By comparison, Blizzard would often hotfix it within hours.

Finally, the worst offender is the sense that they really have no idea what they're doing sometimes. Some changes are just baffling. Their intent may be sensible, but the way they attempt to solve the issue is often nonsensical and ineffective, and only creates additional issues without solving the issue it was intending to solve in the first place. Honestly, I could live with all of the above, except for this. THIS is the one I have hardest time with. With some developers, my faith in their decision-making is bordering on absolute. Even if I don't see it, I know enough to know that there IS a reason, and it works. Because past performance proved it time and time again. But not with these guys.

And the final pet peeve is that their priorities are just way off, which also adds to the negativity of seeing them. I mean, don't get me wrong, the new Barbie Dress-Up system is nice and all. But that's something you add to the game that already runs like a Swiss watch. Not something you do for a game that has many mechanical and balance and performance issues, and is still very low on basic quality of life features. But compared to the rest, this is barely a bleep on the radar.

There's already little to no reason to use channeling skills in PvP, and this is the final nail on their coffins

Knootewoot

Others (Comment bellow your opinion).

I like some decisions ZOS makes but am really baffled with some. I dislike the idea of proc sets, poisons and stuff and wish they were either removed or nerved into Oblivion.

Some nerfs don't make sense to me.

But this is from my point of view. 20.000 players so 20.000 opinions. You cannot make everybody happy. Yes on some everybody agrees, like fix the lag.

Banana

Others (Comment bellow your opinion).

Some people play mDKs in PVE. Like me

Dojohoda

When the changes are massive it is L2P all over again.

Pr0Skygon

I liked some nerfs, but also hate some.

Knootewoot wrote: »

I like some decisions ZOS makes but am really baffled with some. I dislike the idea of proc sets, poisons and stuff and wish they were either removed or nerved into Oblivion.

Some nerfs don't make sense to me.

But this is from my point of view. 20.000 players so 20.000 opinions. You cannot make everybody happy. Yes on some everybody agrees, like fix the lag.

I think that the proc sets problem is kind of solved now They're still good, but not the best anymore. Poison is still annoying in PvP though But hey, at least we all have access to poison, with no grinding required
But yeah, there's a lot of non sense changes that no one ask for

Pr0Skygon

I liked some nerfs, but also hate some.

Banana wrote: »

Some people play mDKs in PVE. Like me

Me too And I love her a lot But let's be real, comparing to others, magDK are hard to use, but with little to no reward for using them correctly.

Anhedonie

Absolutely right, nerfs are way out of controls.

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

I was a fan of the whole "were only going to mess with classes during major updates so people don't have to re gear etc." thing, until it translated to

"some of your characters might be useless or broken until the next major update but this is for your convenience"

My magWarden is still level 6, since July. Everyone knows why.

*This is not my parse, I stink at magic.*

Well my sorc pet parse is 41K. But damme, 35K on a magWarden is an achievement on its own

It's not self-buffed parse. Also, it's a still standing taget dummy...so,lol, I guess.

dodgehopper_ESO

Gear is what starts the problem, and the rules changes they use to make new gear 'necessary'. I'd just like a stable rule system that's balanced.

RavenSworn

I'm not sure I feel about this (I'll explain why on the comment).

dsalter wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

Huyen wrote: »

99% of the negativity comes from people that do PvP and lose their win-buttons. Thats something that will never change. And even in Overwatch you see the same thing happening. Puts me off to play online really...

Actually most of the negativity are from end game raiding guilds/players. We're p*ssed because we have all run our numbers, and the differences in dps and effectiveness in trials are severe between multiple class setup. Some class setup are totally banned from vet trials (ahem, magWarden) for example. The only viable tank option right now is still DK, and Templar for the healer site. This is not how "play your way" in an open world MMORPG supposes to work.

THIS is exactly part of the reason.
take WOW as an example, there are multiple classes, and all of them have their uses eng game.
here in ESO?
good luck being a NB healer or Sorc healer in end game, dont expect to be a bow DPS, and especially frost tanking, oh no game wont allow that.

wanna know why? balance sucks. game is built around an exploit known as "animation cancelling" to boost damage into numbers that allow you to complete endgame content.

It's not the game that doesn't allow it, its the players themselves. The game allows so many other combinations but apparently players are just set on certain builds.

Pr0Skygon

I liked some nerfs, but also hate some.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Gear is what starts the problem, and the rules changes they use to make new gear 'necessary'. I'd just like a stable rule system that's balanced.

Yeah that too

ghastley

I think nerfs are inevitable.

I prefer to see nerfs rather than any attempt to compensate with extra buffs to everything else, as that just leads to an arms-race spiral that harms those who don't min-max everything . The complaints always come from those who everyone else nerfed but them, and are equally inevitable.

Even if balance is perfect, the occasional change keeps the game fresh, and makes players think (and re-think) if they want to stay on top.

Turelus

Nah, I believe in ZOS and what they're doing.

Personally I am more happy than I am upset with the direction ZOS is taking ESO.

Maybe it's because I've been around enough MMO's to understand games change and buffs/nerfs are just things that happen and you adapt to.

That's not to say I love everything ZOS does and has done, but I see ESO now and going in a better direction than it was in some previous patches. I personally would still love to see the CP system gutted from the game, I know some people put a lot of love and work into it but... it never should have been a combat buff system and causes more problems than it give benefits (IMO).

DeadlyRecluse

I think nerfs are inevitable.

1 I like power creep being kept in check. I'd prefer this come in "nerfs" directly to the CP system, but they've got to come somewhere.

2. I like changes that make things more consistent, even if they can be interpreted as nerfs.

3. I like being rewarded for being flexible and willing to try new things, and punished for becoming overly calcified in habits and perspectives.

4. I like changes that reward thinking/skillful play, either in terms of build construction or actual gameplay.

I don't like nerfs that don't serve the above points. A great example of that is the sorc shield nerf. It didn't address the issue (shield strength and stacking), didn't add any obvious mechanical consistency, and didn't encourage new strategies. It was just inconvenient.

An example of a nerf that I actually really liked was taking wrath out of heavy armor and bringing constitution down a bit. In that case, I was overly set in my perspective that I was getting good damage and sustain out of heavy, and didn't adapt as quickly as I should have--and payed the price in performance (see point 3).

I wasn't a fan of the spear shard stun removal, because it pigeonholed templars into running either charge or javelin for CC, which don't require manual aiming. They're easier to use and less effective--not exactly in line with point 4.

Making warden birds and power lash dodgeable? Seems like a clear attempt to unify mechanics and make things consistent. That seems a good goal, but it may necessitate buffs elsewhere to make those specs still "work."

dennissomb16_ESO

Others (Comment bellow your opinion).

It is simple really. People do not like change and unknown (lets face it most people complaining have never even gone to the PTS to try the changes). Every DLC with major changes to a class causes the forums to go nuts with doom and gloom, it is the end of (insert class here) and then the dlc comes out and virtually nothing changes. People still play their favorite toons most of the time, play alts when they feel like it and overall just play.

Good feedback is hard to come by for the developers. Just read some of the posts on PTS. The DLC will launch, little will actually change when it comes to who plays what class and the game will go on

RebornV3x

Absolutely right, nerfs are way out of controls.

The problem is that skills and abilities change or are nerfed so drastically from patch to patch there's never a semi constant way forward I think that's what has people so frustrated one month one skill is just fine the next it could be completely and udderly useless

PlagueSD

I liked some nerfs, but also hate some.

ArchMikem wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

I was a fan of the whole "were only going to mess with classes during major updates so people don't have to re gear etc." thing, until it translated to

"some of your characters might be useless or broken until the next major update but this is for your convenience"

My magWarden is still level 6, since July. Everyone knows why.

I just deleted mine, and she was a geared Lvl50. I didn't care for the other more useful playstyles and if ZOS had no intention of making it so using Frost Damage for DPS was viable, then there was no use for a Warden whatsoever. The Frost Mage will live on only in dreams.

Well, considering frost is the tanking tree (and frost staff for sorcs), I wouldn't expect that to be a DPS spec. That's like speccing sword & board and complaining you don't do as much damage as someone who's specced duel wield.

But yeah, this whole nerf PvE because of PvP is getting on my nerves...

Lynx7386

Its because they have this guy named wrobel in charge who is completely and utterly disconnected from the game and makes changes based entirely on his own little personal power fantasy.

Every time wrobel speaks I get visions of these whiny brats on the forums that want this or that at the expense of everything else just because it suits their personal playstyle without taking anything else into consideration.

jedtb16_ESO

Haters gonna hates, I'm just here enjoying the game.

Dojohoda wrote: »

When the changes are massive it is L2P all over again.

^this....

things change....

adapt and thrive.

Dracofyre

seem they use "free" to pull new players and then it became "Bait and Switch" tactic, made some newer players more confused when they hear older players complained alot, and then newer players leaves since they dont want to play weakened characters compaired to those are years ahead before nerfed.

they come to play for fun and expect good times instead of playing frustrated when they need help with world bosses, it became ghost town while others are doing dolmen runs.

i agreed, PVP server would be ideal and to have PvE unchanged.

Drakkdjinn

Others (Comment bellow your opinion).

They release more broken *** than they fix. Every. Patch. Like clockwork, but not just clockwork ofc.

beetleklee

Absolutely right, nerfs are way out of controls.

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

Banana wrote: »

Some people play mDKs in PVE. Like me

Me too And I love her a lot But let's be real, comparing to others, magDK are hard to use, but with little to no reward for using them correctly.

Yeah I've been taking StamDK to vet raids over my MagDK. I love MagDK but the horrible sustain and worse damage makes it hard to justify bringing him to raids. Same risk being in melee range, no reward. And a harder rotation too.

Pr0Skygon

I liked some nerfs, but also hate some.

Turelus wrote: »

Personally I am more happy than I am upset with the direction ZOS is taking ESO.

Maybe it's because I've been around enough MMO's to understand games change and buffs/nerfs are just things that happen and you adapt to.

That's not to say I love everything ZOS does and has done, but I see ESO now and going in a better direction than it was in some previous patches. I personally would still love to see the CP system gutted from the game, I know some people put a lot of love and work into it but... it never should have been a combat buff system and causes more problems than it give benefits (IMO).

well I sure can forgive ZOS once or twice about this kind of situation, but men, but should really slow down with the nerf. The last 3 patches was all about nerfs, and barely any buffs or changes. And the next one seems to be the same

Luckylancer

Absolutely right, nerfs are way out of controls.

There are TONS of stuff to buff. I think a nieche morps that counter some strategy will controll the game without nerfing the strong strategy.

Shield breaker: 5pc set useless without shield users. A bad nieche.

Radiant light: a usefull skill that counter invis. Very good display of what I want.

Silver bolts: every player in Cyroo is vampire, this skill supposed to be used a lot but it is useless while everyone use strategy that this skill supposed to counter. Without any vampires around, this is still have a use so buffing this skill make it good display of what I want too.

Flanking strategist buff idea: backstabbing atacks gain 350 WD and ignore block midigation. This will make it good againts tankers and even if enemy wont tank, you still have a "situational" hundings.

Buffing weak things can nerf strong things indirectly. Seeing buf on patch > seeing nerfs on patch

Lysette

Others (Comment bellow your opinion).

ZOS has a difficult task to achieve a balance which would cater well for both - PvP and PvE. The suggestion to have different sets of skills for PvE regions and for PvP regions was never really considered, I guess - it would help a lot, because skills could have exceptions in how they perform in PvE or PvP.

Actually ZOS has tried to put this into a number of skills - where the effect of the ability is different dependent on if an NPC is hit with it or a player - but this is not really the solution IMO, because the way in which one has to deal with damage and resource management is very different between a PvE and a PvP situation - best would be to have different skill sets for PvP and PvE - combined with different bars and ultimates for both.

Navarr

Absolutely right, nerfs are way out of controls.

It's just lazy af. We'd need more skills, higher max amount of skill points (and probably faster ways of getting em) as well as more/cheaper/faster ways to respec Abilities/Morphs/CP to even be able to efficiently test things. That way the meta could be able to change for nische situations instead of being the same build for every class/resourcepool combo in every content.

Pr0Skygon

I liked some nerfs, but also hate some.

Luckylancer wrote: »

There are TONS of stuff to buff. I think a nieche morps that counter some strategy will controll the game without nerfing the strong strategy.

Shield breaker: 5pc set useless without shield users. A bad nieche.

Radiant light: a usefull skill that counter invis. Very good display of what I want.

Silver bolts: every player in Cyroo is vampire, this skill supposed to be used a lot but it is useless while everyone use strategy that this skill supposed to counter. Without any vampires around, this is still have a use so buffing this skill make it good display of what I want too.

Flanking strategist buff idea: backstabbing atacks gain 350 WD and ignore block midigation. This will make it good againts tankers and even if enemy wont tank, you still have a "situational" hundings.

Buffing weak things can nerf strong things indirectly. Seeing buf on patch > seeing nerfs on patch

If you're gonna make a list of "useless skills need a buff", I wouldn't want to read that Too longggggggggggg