Cliff Racer Needs Adjustment

Rickter

I'm sure there is a thread floating around that'ss similar, but with the recent MagDK changes in that Power Lash with be dodgeable, it's time we took a look at a similar, if not more effective dmg ability by our good friend, the Warden.

Please reference:

disclaimer: this screenshot was taken from the perspective of a medium armor wearer.

The lack of Warden mention in the PTS patch notes is becoming disheartening as I know the community has raised alarm and called foul on this.

What's the problem? its a ranged, undodgeable, 1 sec cooldown, 5k+ dmg, spammable.

Enough is enough, we deserve better.

JobooAGS

Rickter wrote: »

I'm sure there is a thread floating around that'ss similar, but with the recent MagDK changes in that Power Lash with be dodgeable, it's time we took a look at a similar, if not more effective dmg ability by our good friend, the Warden.

Please reference:

disclaimer: this screenshot was taken from the perspective of a medium armor wearer.

The lack of Warden mention in the PTS patch notes is becoming disheartening as I know the community has raised alarm and called foul on this.

What's the problem? its a ranged, undodgeable, 1 sec cooldown, 5k+ dmg, spammable.

Enough is enough, we deserve better.

did this person los or cloak?

Rickter

JobooAGS wrote: »

did this person los or cloak?

Im going to go with both not being an option.

(not a nb, open field)

DKsUnite

kinda surprised there wasn't a 10k sub assault in there but i guess it was because the warden was spamming it from 41m away.

Maura_Neysa

The Warden is the weakest PVE damage build, and the class only has 4 DPS skills. So as much as PVP wants nerf, PVE wants buff. That why the only changes to the class have been a nerf to Healing Thicket and buffs

The reason Screaming Cliff Racer is undogable is because its extremely telegraphe. Unlike Power Lash, which can be so effectively weaved you don't see the animation at all. Because its is so telegraphed block is an extremely easy counter to it.

That death recap is nothing but cliff racers, which means that death comes down to being caught in a bad place, by a not so good build. Where is the LA between each Cliff Racer, Subterranean Assault, Fletcher Flies, Wall? Anything to make me believe this wasn't a staged Death Recap.

Honsetly you can't cry nerf until that thing is no longer the very worst dps class both flavors stamina and magicka

Samadhi

DKsUnite wrote: »

kinda surprised there wasn't a 10k sub assault in there but i guess it was because the warden was spamming it from 41m away.

Is Subterranean Assault commonly paired with Screaming Cliff Racer?

Would expect the combination to be
Cutting Dive + Subterranean Assault
or
Screaming Cliff Racer + Deep Fissure

SydneyGrey

People want to wear medium and light armor in PvP because they do the best damage that way, then cry if they get killed.

Maura_Neysa

Samadhi wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

kinda surprised there wasn't a 10k sub assault in there but i guess it was because the warden was spamming it from 41m away.

Is Subterranean Assault commonly paired with Screaming Cliff Racer?

Would expect the combination to be
Cutting Dive + Subterranean Assault
or
Screaming Cliff Racer + Deep Fissure

Yes and Fletcher Fly which would still have the full 28 meter range.

Samadhi

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

kinda surprised there wasn't a 10k sub assault in there but i guess it was because the warden was spamming it from 41m away.

Is Subterranean Assault commonly paired with Screaming Cliff Racer?

Would expect the combination to be
Cutting Dive + Subterranean Assault
or
Screaming Cliff Racer + Deep Fissure

Yes and Fletcher Fly which would still have the full 28 meter range.

"Yes" as in people use the Stamina morph (Subterranean Assault) of Shalks with the Magicka morph (Screaming Cliff Racer) of Cliff Racer?
is there a clear reason for such hybridization?

Caleb_Kadesh

If this was someone I killed with my Warden I would expect that this was from chasing someone that is actively running away in open field.

JobooAGS

Samadhi wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

kinda surprised there wasn't a 10k sub assault in there but i guess it was because the warden was spamming it from 41m away.

Is Subterranean Assault commonly paired with Screaming Cliff Racer?

Would expect the combination to be
Cutting Dive + Subterranean Assault
or
Screaming Cliff Racer + Deep Fissure

Yes and Fletcher Fly which would still have the full 28 meter range.

"Yes" as in people use the Stamina morph (Subterranean Assault) of Shalks with the Magicka morph (Screaming Cliff Racer) of Cliff Racer?
is there a clear reason for such hybridization?

the armor debuff, although the stun version seems better for mag

Samadhi

JobooAGS wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

kinda surprised there wasn't a 10k sub assault in there but i guess it was because the warden was spamming it from 41m away.

Is Subterranean Assault commonly paired with Screaming Cliff Racer?

Would expect the combination to be
Cutting Dive + Subterranean Assault
or
Screaming Cliff Racer + Deep Fissure

Yes and Fletcher Fly which would still have the full 28 meter range.

"Yes" as in people use the Stamina morph (Subterranean Assault) of Shalks with the Magicka morph (Screaming Cliff Racer) of Cliff Racer?
is there a clear reason for such hybridization?

the armor debuff, although the stun version seems better for mag

Personally use Deep Fissure (the stun morph) for CC on my Frost Witch build,
but don't bother with Cliff Racer on that build
would think that for a ranged magicka character Elemental Drain would be a better source of Breach?

Maura_Neysa

Samadhi wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

kinda surprised there wasn't a 10k sub assault in there but i guess it was because the warden was spamming it from 41m away.

Is Subterranean Assault commonly paired with Screaming Cliff Racer?

Would expect the combination to be
Cutting Dive + Subterranean Assault
or
Screaming Cliff Racer + Deep Fissure

Yes and Fletcher Fly which would still have the full 28 meter range.

"Yes" as in people use the Stamina morph (Subterranean Assault) of Shalks with the Magicka morph (Screaming Cliff Racer) of Cliff Racer?
is there a clear reason for such hybridization?

No they use Cutting + Sub or Screaming + Deep. The magic will use other skill too, not spam just one. The stamina have only wrecking, Sub, Cutting , Reverse and Dawn Breaker. You don't often see Cutting, if your combo didn't do it you need to be on the defensive

Edit: Sorry if naming the wrong morph caused confusion.

JobooAGS

Samadhi wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

kinda surprised there wasn't a 10k sub assault in there but i guess it was because the warden was spamming it from 41m away.

Is Subterranean Assault commonly paired with Screaming Cliff Racer?

Would expect the combination to be
Cutting Dive + Subterranean Assault
or
Screaming Cliff Racer + Deep Fissure

Yes and Fletcher Fly which would still have the full 28 meter range.

"Yes" as in people use the Stamina morph (Subterranean Assault) of Shalks with the Magicka morph (Screaming Cliff Racer) of Cliff Racer?
is there a clear reason for such hybridization?

the armor debuff, although the stun version seems better for mag

Personally use Deep Fissure (the stun morph) for CC on my Frost Witch build,
but don't bother with Cliff Racer on that build
would think that for a ranged magicka character Elemental Drain would be a better source of Breach?

I agree, I just gave a potential reason playing devil's advocate

Narvuntien

I am pretty sure in all medium armor I have extremely fast sprint so I switch to bow roll dodge and leg it.

I am not sure how you could code it but I feel like the cliff racer should have a longer cooldown the longer away it is cast. Since the creature has to appear dive down and fly off. Its just one cliff racer. If you roll dodge and run away you can increase the time before the next cast. You get locked out of casting the spell until the first one despawns.

Hurtfan

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

The reason Screaming Cliff Racer is undogable is because its extremely telegraphe. Unlike Power Lash, which can be so effectively weaved you don't see the animation at all. Because its is so telegraphed block is an extremely easy counter to it.

Crystal frag you can see coming a mile away, it's dodge-able....

Edit: I'm not calling for a nerf for the record...I'm anti-nerf, aka pro buff

Lord_Eomer

Its not just damn cliff racer this class need to re-balance for PVP and PVE (Mag Dps)

Saint_Bud

The reason why warden isnt a dps class os because there is a tank, heal and damage tree. The class sucks in pve because it fit in no role. It has from evry aspect something, but nothing reall speciall. Also the duration of the skill isnt good, and they bring nothing to the group. On the other side thats the reason they good in pvp. Evry other class has there speciell disigne for what they stand, warden is just a mix of some of them.

For pvp, they should make the bird doge and reflect able. Problem fixed.

Venom4You

noone should ever die to a spammed ability - Spamming is not effective in this game (at least if your opponent can handle himself...). A skilled warden doesn't spam birds either. It is weaved in a rotation. So first of all you didn't face a skilled opponent.
There remains basically one reason why you died there: You weren't paying attention - Not going defensive (going out of line of sight?, blocking?!, shielding?). The fact that the player hit you with almost always the same dmg value tells me that you didn't block a single of these cliff racers...
I mean seriously guys. Stop coming to forum to cry for nerfs if the solution is to use your brain... cliffracer is undodgable? some scrub is spamming it on you? easy: simply block it/ shield it and apply counter pressure with dots and timed burst.
It is an ability that is clearly visible and good to react to. But if people keep dodge rolling like maniacs even so they know the used ability is undodgeable... its a learn to play issue.
So please guys... Stop coming to forum crying for nerfs when even the photo proof shows nothing more than the OP's failure to react to the attacker AT ALL...

And no, I am not trolling or trying to be arrogant but all the "fast" complaints by people brought our pvp combat meta to the bad spot we are in today. Because ZOS simply applies nerfs according to outcry. Less asking for nerfs, more brain! If you don't know how to react to birds. Ask for help on forums. But don't cry for nerfs as first step...

Maura_Neysa

Hurtfan wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

The reason Screaming Cliff Racer is undogable is because its extremely telegraphe. Unlike Power Lash, which can be so effectively weaved you don't see the animation at all. Because its is so telegraphed block is an extremely easy counter to it.

Crystal frag you can see coming a mile away, it's dodge-able....

Edit: I'm not calling for a nerf for the record...I'm anti-nerf

No where close, yes if you're watching the sorc cast it. Frags are not a moving object above the plain where you dont usually see anything moving though. Not to mention the nowhere close to the same travel times of the two.

Personally if they added in another strong DoT I could easy see lowering the damage of Birds and Shalks. Untill it is just squeaking into last place PvE DPS (instead of being 10 minutes behind) you cant go nerfing the Wardens 2 best DPS skills

Hurtfan

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Hurtfan wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

The reason Screaming Cliff Racer is undogable is because its extremely telegraphe. Unlike Power Lash, which can be so effectively weaved you don't see the animation at all. Because its is so telegraphed block is an extremely easy counter to it.

Crystal frag you can see coming a mile away, it's dodge-able....

Edit: I'm not calling for a nerf for the record...I'm anti-nerf

No where close, yes if you're watching the sorc cast it. Frags are not a moving object above the plain where you dont usually see anything moving though. Not to mention the nowhere close to the same travel times of the two.

Personally if they added in another strong DoT I could easy see lowering the damage of Birds and Shalks. Untill it is just squeaking into last place PvE DPS (instead of being 10 minutes behind) you cant go nerfing the Wardens 2 best DPS skills

You can see the frag floating in the air above the casters hands before it's projected, while the hands are flailing around. And you can hear it too, while it's ramping up...

Jamini

If you don't block and LoS a guy spamming the same highly telegraphed skill at you for over 8s, then this is a L2P issue. I PvP on three different medium armor stam builds and I simply don't have this issue. (My DK just blocks and passively out-heals, my NB would cloak out after I saw the first bird, and my warden just heals straight through it.)

Quite frankly, so many people are against using shields its getting kind of silly at this point. It's like every kid with their l33t a$$a$$in build wants to oneshot everything and doesn't even think that "hey, maybe unavoidable damage exists so that I might need to block sometimes." and "if you use a shield you should always die to me because everyone knows that shields make you hit like a wet noodle." (Which I will point out, isn't true. Quite frankly, shields make excellent weapons in their own right irl, and if you try dual-wielding without a proper parry knife in a SCA or similar you are a frigging idiot and will get spanked pretty damn hard..)

Vapirko

All the people on here saying this skill isn’t OP are probably wardens lmfao. There’s 3 reasons stam wardens are the fotm. 1) they have access to every good buff, mostly as a class 2) sub assault 3) bird spam.

ManDraKE

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

The Warden is the weakest PVE damage build, and the class only has 4 DPS skills. So as much as PVP wants nerf, PVE wants buff. That why the only changes to the class have been a nerf to Healing Thicket and buffs

The reason Screaming Cliff Racer is undogable is because its extremely telegraphe. Unlike Power Lash, which can be so effectively weaved you don't see the animation at all. Because its is so telegraphed block is an extremely easy counter to it.

That death recap is nothing but cliff racers, which means that death comes down to being caught in a bad place, by a not so good build. Where is the LA between each Cliff Racer, Subterranean Assault, Fletcher Flies, Wall? Anything to make me believe this wasn't a staged Death Recap.

Honsetly you can't cry nerf until that thing is no longer the very worst dps class both flavors stamina and magicka

For PvP we only need to make the bird doggeable and reflectable, that change have literally 0 effect on PvE, PvP combat is far more complex and is not just a matter of who can get higher DPS parses, so a nerf in PvP wouldn't necessarily affect the DPS output.

And Healing thicket nerf was very related to PvE, people were skipping bosses mechanics with the absurd healing output that healing thicket used to have.

Tan9oSuccka

DKsUnite wrote: »

kinda surprised there wasn't a 10k sub assault in there but i guess it was because the warden was spamming it from 41m away.

So true. I usually get hit by 5 attacks instantly that never animate.

I’ve kinda learned to just hold block if I see that stupid netch trailing someone. Cheese incoming.

JobooAGS

ManDraKE wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

The Warden is the weakest PVE damage build, and the class only has 4 DPS skills. So as much as PVP wants nerf, PVE wants buff. That why the only changes to the class have been a nerf to Healing Thicket and buffs

The reason Screaming Cliff Racer is undogable is because its extremely telegraphe. Unlike Power Lash, which can be so effectively weaved you don't see the animation at all. Because its is so telegraphed block is an extremely easy counter to it.

That death recap is nothing but cliff racers, which means that death comes down to being caught in a bad place, by a not so good build. Where is the LA between each Cliff Racer, Subterranean Assault, Fletcher Flies, Wall? Anything to make me believe this wasn't a staged Death Recap.

Honsetly you can't cry nerf until that thing is no longer the very worst dps class both flavors stamina and magicka

For PvP we only need to make the bird doggeable and reflectable, that change have literally 0 effect on PvE, PvP combat is far more complex and is not just a matter of who can get higher DPS parses, so a nerf in PvP wouldn't necessarily affect the DPS output.

And Healing thicket nerf was very related to PvE, people were skipping bosses mechanics with the absurd healing output that healing thicket used to have.

Birds would have to be faster if they were to be dodgeable and reflectable

Drakkdjinn

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

The Warden is the weakest PVE damage build, and the class only has 4 DPS skills. So as much as PVP wants nerf, PVE wants buff. That why the only changes to the class have been a nerf to Healing Thicket and buffs

The reason Screaming Cliff Racer is undogable is because its extremely telegraphe. Unlike Power Lash, which can be so effectively weaved you don't see the animation at all. Because its is so telegraphed block is an extremely easy counter to it.

That death recap is nothing but cliff racers, which means that death comes down to being caught in a bad place, by a not so good build. Where is the LA between each Cliff Racer, Subterranean Assault, Fletcher Flies, Wall? Anything to make me believe this wasn't a staged Death Recap.

Honsetly you can't cry nerf until that thing is no longer the very worst dps class both flavors stamina and magicka

Calm down - racer Just needs to be dodgeable, wouldn't affect PvE hardly, if at all. It's undeniably cheese in PvP for no legit reason.

JobooAGS

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

The Warden is the weakest PVE damage build, and the class only has 4 DPS skills. So as much as PVP wants nerf, PVE wants buff. That why the only changes to the class have been a nerf to Healing Thicket and buffs

The reason Screaming Cliff Racer is undogable is because its extremely telegraphe. Unlike Power Lash, which can be so effectively weaved you don't see the animation at all. Because its is so telegraphed block is an extremely easy counter to it.

That death recap is nothing but cliff racers, which means that death comes down to being caught in a bad place, by a not so good build. Where is the LA between each Cliff Racer, Subterranean Assault, Fletcher Flies, Wall? Anything to make me believe this wasn't a staged Death Recap.

Honsetly you can't cry nerf until that thing is no longer the very worst dps class both flavors stamina and magicka

Calm down - racer Just needs to be dodgeable, wouldn't affect PvE hardly, if at all. It's undeniably cheese in PvP for no legit reason.

make racer instant too, otherwise its a weaker version of snipe.

Smmokkee

The reason why the warden is a mess is because it was developed in the early stages of the game before release and then scrapped because it clearly was broken. Fast forward to the release of Morrowind and zos needs something else to justify its overpriced chapter. So they necro the warden not concerned with how broken of a class just concerned about those benjamins.

ManDraKE

JobooAGS wrote: »

make racer instant too, otherwise its a weaker version of snipe.

because snipe is instant ? lol

Nemesis7884

fine nerf the racer but then BUFF other warden stuff for pve and give us back the physical damage bonus