Concerning Assassins Will Change 3.3.2

Vapirko

I’ll just preface this by saying I play a magblade in pvp and pve, among other classes. I like the change overall of course. However, this is a very powerful skill and it lasts a long time. It’s unecessary for the LA/HA count to remain even after the skill expires. On recast should be more than enough. This seems to be a purely PvE based change, but it’s going to make this skill a little too accessible in PvP I believe. Thoughts?

DDuke

Well, it does reset when you drop out of combat (so no killing wolves & then one shotting people from stealth).


I believe this is going to make the skill feel a lot less clunky in both PvE & PvP, and that's a good thing tbh.

Vapirko

DDuke wrote: »

Well, it does reset when you drop out of combat (so no killing wolves & then one shotting people from stealth).


I believe this is going to make the skill feel a lot less clunky in both PvE & PvP, and that's a good thing tbh.

But you also have to consider that in a prolonged fight which could range from 1v1 to zergs chasing down a few players. You’re going to have the ability to blast off a spectral bow without even thinking of keeping it up. Again keeping it additive only during uptime feels like enough of a give me without dumbing it down to the point where you don’t even need to remember to recast the skill. Idk I’m very happy that the change is being made but I foresee issues with it and I don’t want an over nerf to result.

Nox_Noir

I think it's great. Weaving LA on NB is already annoying as it is, I've allways found perfectly fitting that together with the uptime to get that 3rd proc off to be just unnecessarily difficult and very annoying... like difficult just for the sake of beeing difficult. This change makes things a bit more relaxed and enables an imperfect NB player like me to maybe get that 3rd proc off reliably in a boss fight. I doubt it would make it possible to get off a 4th proc, at least in any real fight situation and not just dummy... but maybe some exp NB player can prove me wrong on that.

DuckNoodles

I think this is a very good welcome change, and needed.

This will make Pve rotations more stable.

And for PvP, an excellent change.

Vapirko

DuckNoodles wrote: »

I think this is a very good welcome change, and needed.

This will make Pve rotations more stable.

And for PvP, an excellent change.

For the responsible player yes, for the zerging light attack spammer? Now all the spectral bows will be hitting me in the back lol. But hey, maybe it’ll be fine. I just know zos loves to nerf NBs and I hope we don’t see very negative prepercussions.

Own

Yeah this is op for stamblade. It is the most viable 1vPotato class by far now imo.

I realllly wanted to play StamDK next update because I heard they suck, but constantly 1 shotting pugs with empowered Scourge's beats that.

ToRelax

I'll quote myself from the official combat thread:

ToRelax wrote: »

It's not about being punished for mistakes but whether the ability can be used from stealth/invisibility when already engaged against another player. With this change, a NB player could simply charge the bow before entering stealth again and keeping it up until an opportune moment to use it as a ganking tool. If the sound doesn't play correctly, this would be even worse.
Instead of or in addition to the stack being removed out of combat, I would suggest a reset timer after which the stack is set back to 0, that is refreshed on every light attack while the buff is active.

If you are actually engaged in combat, it would then stay up until you need it. Whether that is a good thing in and of itself is certainly debateable, but in accordance with the stated goal of making the skill more forgiving for less skilled players to use.

Clever Alchemist was also changed with a limitation to combat mode, but the buff from that set expires by itself. This one doesn't.

BlazingDynamo

Will someone please make a topic everytime a skill is changed to disadvantage pve. All I ever see is threads about "oh no this skill got changed and it's going to have such a negative effect on pvp it has to be nerfed".

Give it a rest pleaseeeee

Vapirko

ToRelax wrote: »

I'll quote myself from the official combat thread:

ToRelax wrote: »

It's not about being punished for mistakes but whether the ability can be used from stealth/invisibility when already engaged against another player. With this change, a NB player could simply charge the bow before entering stealth again and keeping it up until an opportune moment to use it as a ganking tool. If the sound doesn't play correctly, this would be even worse.
Instead of or in addition to the stack being removed out of combat, I would suggest a reset timer after which the stack is set back to 0, that is refreshed on every light attack while the buff is active.

If you are actually engaged in combat, it would then stay up until you need it. Whether that is a good thing in and of itself is certainly debateable, but in accordance with the stated goal of making the skill more forgiving for less skilled players to use.

Clever Alchemist was also changed with a limitation to combat mode, but the buff from that set expires by itself. This one doesn't.

This is exactly the kind of thing that will be abused and subsequently complained about leading to nerfs that I’m talking about. Although you would have to keep in combat while using cloak which is a little harder than just chargingit and then waiting in stealth. Exciting tool or abusable power?

Vapirko

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

Will someone please make a topic everytime a skill is changed to disadvantage pve. All I ever see is threads about "oh no this skill got changed and it's going to have such a negative effect on pvp it has to be nerfed".

Give it a rest pleaseeeee

What? Do you even understand the changes? This is a buff for PvE players not a disadvantage. And bro, If you can’t get through your rotation before assassins will expires then I’m sorry but you need some practice. I didn’t say such a negative effect, I’m worried about it being too easily abused leading to subsequent nerfs. This game doesn’t need to be dumbed down any further. Spectral bow is a very powerful skill on an already powerful class. I agree it needed some change but I don’t necessarily agree with the charge up being carried over after the skill ends. It not only feels counterintuitive it seems unnecessarily easy.

Someone please respond to a topic every time they don’t understand anything they’re talking about.

rustic_potato

Vapirko wrote: »

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

Will someone please make a topic everytime a skill is changed to disadvantage pve. All I ever see is threads about "oh no this skill got changed and it's going to have such a negative effect on pvp it has to be nerfed".

Give it a rest pleaseeeee

What? Do you even understand the changes? This is a buff for PvE players not a disadvantage. And bro, If you can’t get through your rotation before assassins will expires then I’m sorry but you need some practice. I didn’t say such a negative effect, I’m worried about it being too easily abused leading to subsequent nerfs. This game doesn’t need to be dumbed down any further. Spectral bow is a very powerful skill on an already powerful class. I agree it needed some change but I don’t necessarily agree with the charge up being carried over after the skill ends. It not only feels counterintuitive it seems unnecessarily easy.

Someone please make a topic every time they don’t understand anything they’re talking about.

I think ZOS disagrees. They have worked to remove everything that is complicated and walled behind skill in this game. Honestly they are doing a great job at it.

Rohamad_Ali

Amateur Magblade's celebrate . Bozo free Assasins will for everyone .

Vaoh

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

Will someone please make a topic everytime a skill is changed to disadvantage pve. All I ever see is threads about "oh no this skill got changed and it's going to have such a negative effect on pvp it has to be nerfed".

Give it a rest pleaseeeee

^^^^

Izaki

7 bow procs every 2 casts of Merciless/Relentless is the new maximum. Which is great and rewards good players. I do fear that this might cause some future nerfs to the class in PvE since this is a pretty big buff, especially on target dummies.

Vapirko

Izaki wrote: »

7 bow procs every 2 casts of Merciless/Relentless is the new maximum. Which is great and rewards good players. I do fear that this might cause some future nerfs to the class in PvE since this is a pretty big buff, especially on target dummies.

For good or even decent players, you can now just assume spectral bow to be a steady part of your rotation.

Valykc

In B4 Nightblade fotm.

This change will be strong in PvP and it will be complained about, I can guarantee it. People will be able to time bursts much easier with this change to the point of zero counter play. It will be:

MagBlade:
Valkyn Proc > Master Staff Flame Reach> Merciless > soul harvest > execute

StamBlade:
Master Bow poison inject > relentless swap cancel > ambush > incap > surprise attack/execute

I see this being the change that gets the damage nerfed a few patches down the line.

Now I’m not an expert that’s just my two cents.

Vapirko

Valykc wrote: »

In B4 Nightblade fotm.

This change will be strong in PvP and it will be complained about, I can guarantee it. People will be able to time bursts much easier with this change to the point of zero counter play. It will be:

MagBlade:
Valkyn Proc > Master Staff Flame Reach> Merciless > soul harvest > execute

StamBlade:
Master Bow poison inject > relentless swap cancel > ambush > incap > surprise attack/execute

I see this being the change that gets the damage nerfed a few patches down the line.

Now I’m not an expert that’s just my two cents.

That’s what I’m trying to say, and, having it reset on skill expiration would barely affect pve at all. It would still be a huge buff.

Aelakhaii_De_Mythos

Too major a change for either pve or pvp.

But it's in line with their gameplay philosophy (dumbing every single aspect down...) so not surprised.

There is no denying that one has to make much less adaptation now.

**hmm 4 sec left to proc AW and i got 1 hit left, go full offensive right now or wait another rotation?**
^this scenario wont happen again after this change.

Valykc

Vapirko wrote: »

Valykc wrote: »

In B4 Nightblade fotm.

This change will be strong in PvP and it will be complained about, I can guarantee it. People will be able to time bursts much easier with this change to the point of zero counter play. It will be:

MagBlade:
Valkyn Proc > Master Staff Flame Reach> Merciless > soul harvest > execute

StamBlade:
Master Bow poison inject > relentless swap cancel > ambush > incap > surprise attack/execute

I see this being the change that gets the damage nerfed a few patches down the line.

Now I’m not an expert that’s just my two cents.

That’s what I’m trying to say, and, having it reset on skill expiration would barely affect pve at all. It would still be a huge buff.

I agree, if they want to make it friendlier to new players reduce the Light attacks needed or add a few seconds to the duration. This will be broken in PvP and cause the skill to be destroyed through future nerfs because ZOS doesn’t want to separate PvP and PvE.

Izaki

Valykc wrote: »

In B4 Nightblade fotm.

This change will be strong in PvP and it will be complained about, I can guarantee it. People will be able to time bursts much easier with this change to the point of zero counter play. It will be:

MagBlade:
Valkyn Proc > Master Staff Flame Reach> Merciless > soul harvest > execute

StamBlade:
Master Bow poison inject > relentless swap cancel > ambush > incap > surprise attack/execute

I see this being the change that gets the damage nerfed a few patches down the line.

Now I’m not an expert that’s just my two cents.

All those combos you listed are already possible and already been done on the live server. Only thing that will change is that you'll be able to use that combo more reliably. Right now its a terribly unreliable skill which is why most Stamblades don't even slot it.

And nightblades are already in some way the "FOTM every month" since they are the "assassin class" and everyone loves that. But seriously though, only good nightblades will be able to make good use of this change. The bad ones will still struggle to pull off proper burst with this ability.

I still think that there's a bit too much fuss over this change. It won't change much at all for at least 90% of nightblades in the game.

Vapirko wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

7 bow procs every 2 casts of Merciless/Relentless is the new maximum. Which is great and rewards good players. I do fear that this might cause some future nerfs to the class in PvE since this is a pretty big buff, especially on target dummies.

For good or even decent players, you can now just assume spectral bow to be a steady part of your rotation.

The spectral bow is already a steady or should I say central part of the Nightblade rotations. This change doesn't change that.

Like I said, nothing will change aside from the very rare 4th bow proc per cast. I did say in my previous comment that 7 bow procs over 2 casts of Merciless or Relentless will be possible, however, I was wrong. With pretty much perfect weaving at the highest possible (human) speed, you'll get 3 Bow procs in 17.3-17.4 seconds. That's if you don't make a single mistake in your weaving which is inhuman. You'll most likely take about 18 seconds to get and use your 3 Bow procs in most cases. That leaves 2.7 seconds at most on your buff. This is about 2 extra skill casts. So 2 extra light attacks. So if you're able to maintain this, you should theoretically get a 4th bow proc every 3 or 4 Merciless Resolve casts. Let's say the bow proc does 30k damage. The DPS increase isn't significant at all, since you need to remember that you're using that bow proc instead of another skill (Surprise Attack or Funnel Health which both deal roughly half of the bow proc's damage). So the net gain of DPS would be around 3.75-5k extra damage per 60-80 seconds. Yeah. Pretty slim. And you can basically forget the 4th bow proc in raids. The only thing this change really does is make the VERY common bug, where you refresh Relentless or Merciless instead of firing off the bow proc, less punishing. So it essentially allows you to screw up your rotation a little bit and not lose as much DPS as before. So its basically only a change that makes this ability more accessible to players that aren't Magblades or Stamblade masters. In PvP, this change will only make this ability a more reliable source of burst, which it currently isn't on the live server.

PS4_ZeColmeia

Izaki wrote: »

Valykc wrote: »

In B4 Nightblade fotm.

This change will be strong in PvP and it will be complained about, I can guarantee it. People will be able to time bursts much easier with this change to the point of zero counter play. It will be:

MagBlade:
Valkyn Proc > Master Staff Flame Reach> Merciless > soul harvest > execute

StamBlade:
Master Bow poison inject > relentless swap cancel > ambush > incap > surprise attack/execute

I see this being the change that gets the damage nerfed a few patches down the line.

Now I’m not an expert that’s just my two cents.

All those combos you listed are already possible and already been done on the live server. Only thing that will change is that you'll be able to use that combo more reliably. Right now its a terribly unreliable skill which is why most Stamblades don't even slot it.

And nightblades are already in some way the "FOTM every month" since they are the "assassin class" and everyone loves that. But seriously though, only good nightblades will be able to make good use of this change. The bad ones will still struggle to pull off proper burst with this ability.

I still think that there's a bit too much fuss over this change. It won't change much at all for at least 90% of nightblades in the game.

Vapirko wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

7 bow procs every 2 casts of Merciless/Relentless is the new maximum. Which is great and rewards good players. I do fear that this might cause some future nerfs to the class in PvE since this is a pretty big buff, especially on target dummies.

For good or even decent players, you can now just assume spectral bow to be a steady part of your rotation.

The spectral bow is already a steady or should I say central part of the Nightblade rotations. This change doesn't change that.

Like I said, nothing will change aside from the very rare 4th bow proc per cast. I did say in my previous comment that 7 bow procs over 2 casts of Merciless or Relentless will be possible, however, I was wrong. With pretty much perfect weaving at the highest possible (human) speed, you'll get 3 Bow procs in 17.3-17.4 seconds. That's if you don't make a single mistake in your weaving which is inhuman. You'll most likely take about 18 seconds to get and use your 3 Bow procs in most cases. That leaves 2.7 seconds at most on your buff. This is about 2 extra skill casts. So 2 extra light attacks. So if you're able to maintain this, you should theoretically get a 4th bow proc every 3 or 4 Merciless Resolve casts. Let's say the bow proc does 30k damage. The DPS increase isn't significant at all, since you need to remember that you're using that bow proc instead of another skill (Surprise Attack or Funnel Health which both deal roughly half of the bow proc's damage). So the net gain of DPS would be around 3.75-5k extra damage per 60-80 seconds. Yeah. Pretty slim. And you can basically forget the 4th bow proc in raids. The only thing this change really does is make the VERY common bug, where you refresh Relentless or Merciless instead of firing off the bow proc, less punishing. So it essentially allows you to screw up your rotation a little bit and not lose as much DPS as before. So its basically only a change that makes this ability more accessible to players that aren't Magblades or Stamblade masters. In PvP, this change will only make this ability a more reliable source of burst, which it currently isn't on the live server.

this this this. It's not a buff, it's actually correcting the issue with the skill where a miss cast essentially dropped your dps significantly by interrupting your damage output. This also makes more forgiving the slow or MA weave you have to do after every strife cast because of the animation of that skill. If you LA you will do the attack animation without doing damage. By doing this change you forgive weaving that isn't perfect or mis casts of the bow.

rustic_potato

Vapirko wrote: »

Valykc wrote: »

In B4 Nightblade fotm.

This change will be strong in PvP and it will be complained about, I can guarantee it. People will be able to time bursts much easier with this change to the point of zero counter play. It will be:

MagBlade:
Valkyn Proc > Master Staff Flame Reach> Merciless > soul harvest > execute

StamBlade:
Master Bow poison inject > relentless swap cancel > ambush > incap > surprise attack/execute

I see this being the change that gets the damage nerfed a few patches down the line.

Now I’m not an expert that’s just my two cents.

That’s what I’m trying to say, and, having it reset on skill expiration would barely affect pve at all. It would still be a huge buff.

Last year homestead patch did something similar to sorcs. A class that was already performing high got a buff to pet damage and lightning for minor vuln added. PVE and PVP saw Elder Sorcs Online till they eventually got neutered to comparable levels.

Same happened 2 years back with thieves guild when Stam got some major buffs and every one was running only stam and occasional token sorcs for range factor till the sorc explosion happened.

This style of balancing is how ZOS cycles between its classes. Good nightblades will become stronger this patch bad nightblades will still remain bad.

Arrchangell

Once again cause of the PVP whiners, this change will probably be reverted before it goes live...

Vapirko

Arrchangell wrote: »

Once again cause of the PVP whiners, this change will probably be reverted before it goes live...

No ones whining, just trying to keep some skill in the game. Who, if the people who take dps seriously, honestly can’t complete their rotation prior to assassins will expiring? Look, I play magblade in PvE AND PvP (despite how impossible that may sound to some of you “pure” pvers, if this goes it’s good for me. But as was said, this will get complained about and loudly. Wait till noobs start getting destroyed by spectral bow all the time. Then ZOS will swoop in a nerf the damage or soemthing and we will be worse off.

Trashs1

Vapirko wrote: »

Arrchangell wrote: »

Once again cause of the PVP whiners, this change will probably be reverted before it goes live...

No ones whining, just trying to keep some skill in the game. Who, if the people who take dps seriously, honestly can’t complete their rotation prior to assassins will expiring? Look, I play magblade in PvE AND PvP (despite how impossible that may sound to some of you “pure” pvers, if this goes it’s good for me. But as was said, this will get complained about and loudly. Wait till noobs start getting destroyed by spectral bow all the time. Then ZOS will swoop in a nerf the damage or soemthing and we will be worse off.

and u dont think of the hundred of tausand players who have often pings of 250+ and therefore bow dont fire???

god... u pve guys only think in rotas and how skilled u guys are fighting a telegraphed scripted enemy...

good change!!

Calboy

Might actually be able to reliably use it now with my latency

Derra

Valykc wrote: »

In B4 Nightblade fotm.

This change will be strong in PvP and it will be complained about, I can guarantee it. People will be able to time bursts much easier with this change to the point of zero counter play. It will be:

MagBlade:
Valkyn Proc > Master Staff Flame Reach> Merciless > soul harvest > execute

StamBlade:
Master Bow poison inject > relentless swap cancel > ambush > incap > surprise attack/execute

I see this being the change that gets the damage nerfed a few patches down the line.

Now I’m not an expert that’s just my two cents.

Crystal fragments sends it´s regards

Very true statement.

olsborg

I agree with @Aelakhaii_De_Mythos here. Just another step to dumb the game down. Sure the skill felt clunky and it will prob feel less so now, but its an immensely powerful tool in the right hands and it atleast required good skill to time and use with deadly results. We will see more arrows fly around the battlefield thats for sure..

Feanor

You can forgive the PvE players who just want buffs and don’t look at the bigger pictures. After all, most of them complain about set changes too and love it when their armor plays the game.

So another NB buff. Great. I’d love to hear what Templars and DKs are thinking about that.

Ragnaroek93

I think that the buff to Assassins Will is a bit too much. I see the reason behind this buff and on the one side I think it's good because the skill is so difficult to get up in open world that it most of the times expires before you actually can use it. On the other side I'm a bit sad because it's one of the last skills which isn't a click and forget ability like Shalks, Curse, etc. I think a good way to go would be to increase the required light attack which you need to hit up to 6.