Magicka PVE DPS - how are they doing after v3.3.2? Do Mag DK/Templar/Warden/Sorc need buffs?

Vaoh

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

My point may have been missed or perhaps I did a poor job at explaining it. But what I was trying to say is one class (or at least from what we've seen with eso thus far) will stand out from the rest as far as dps goes and yes if you want top scores and speed runs you'll have to run that group composition. But regardless any class can be made into a vet trials class with more than enough dps to provide what's wanted as far as clearing the content goes.

I wouldn't exactly say the other classes are behind because of this they just unfortunately no longer meet that top end dps spot. They're still extremely viable.

Perfect balance is never going to be achieved in this game as long as pvp and pve have no seperate balances. Best just play another class when the other isn't performing as well. Sucks but one day Zos might figure it out.

Also I really gotta say this slight change to NBs Grim Focus isn't going to push their dps any higher..only gotta make it easier for those to hit a higher dps that don't have the skilled hands as someone already getting a 3 bow proc in rotation. The players already achieving this wont see a difference.

In laggy situations though (at least for console players) it’ll be a huge change, and regardless it’s a pretty big buff. Mag NB was already ahead of all other Mag DPS in CWC. However, a large flaw of Mag NBs was that the skill cap was very high in their rotation so pulling those big numbers was tough. That’s no longer the case, and on top of it all other Mag DPS just got nerfed.

You’re correct, but the issue isn’t just that Mag NB is ahead, but rather that they are ahead by a lot. Like Mag Sorc strong..... back when Mag Sorcs were ridiculous. Mag NB crushes the other classes to the point where you are *gimping* yourself to play another class.

I’m not sure how good of a player you are in terms of endgame PvE, but in my situation you are definitely correct but only because (no I *do not* want to brag but there’s no other way to get the point across from my own experience) I tend to pull more DPS on my Mag Warden than the vast majority of endgame players do on their Mag NB/Sorcs this patch. I’m just very experienced with it because I’ve put so much time into endgame stuff.... and because I only run Warden on fun runs in vHoF/vMoL where the Eternal Guardian is viable.

Yet for all of those players who can’t even beat Vet trials or struggle immensely, there is zero reason to choose something besides Mag NB. Same as when Sorc was OP. Why purposely pull way less DPS when you already struggle with content and need to complete? That’s selfish at the expense of the 11 others in your group. If the gap was small it would not be an issue, but the gap isn’t small. Also Mag NBs give offheals...... they are legit far too above the other Mag classes.

The few players that can push very high scores choose the best classes too because that’s how they’ll push the highest scores. What I’m trying to say is, the only players that can actually make use of any class in clearing content are the very best players, who only do it on “fun runs” anyway. As for everyone else? Mag NB is going to be too far ahead to avoid using, and you’ll get yelled at/talked behind your back probably for not using it. Just not good for the game

Anyway I made this thread to see if Mag NB is truly that far ahead atm. I really hope not but based on the changes idk how they won’t be.

I mean honestly as much as I hate seeing a thread like this cause it just causes an uproar I get your point. Yeah the classes below mNB should be in line but I'm just afraid that instead of trying to bring those classes up to par with Nightblades, Nightblades will get hit instead. Because that's what Zos tends to do..

Even if the skill required to hit high dps on a mNB will drop with this change I still believe less skilled players will find mSorc easier.

*fyi I tanked vet trials in my 'prime' and only played mSorc in vMA so I was never extremely experienced as a dps in trials. I've also been on a lengthy break from the game. Play very causally I still enjoy ESO just not hard into the 12 man trials anymore, so yeah I'll give you that you are more knowledgeable on the subject I just think you shouldn't make such harsh assumptions on mNB being the be all end all now.

Believe me I love the balance of Mag NB rn even though I always play Sorc/Warden.

I think that Mag NB is in a very good spot rn and that all of the Mag classes need to be brought up to their level. There’s a much better chance of what you said happening though, that Mag NB will get nerfs overtime. Less Grim Focus Damage, passive nerfs, sustain nerfs, etc.

However, Mag NB will be ahead of others by a lot next patch - it’ll basically be stacking as many Stam DPS as possible based on trial mechanics and then fill with Mag NBs.

One thing I didn’t think about was Stam NB. I wonder if they’ve gotten noticeably stronger compared to other Stam classes.

Vaoh

beetleklee wrote: »

Gonna level up a MagNB, I've had a level 4 one sitting for a while now. Guess my MagDK will be crafter only until ZOS actually buffs them...but yeah after a year of nerfs that seems unlikely lol.

My Mag DK is my master crafter too.... js

beetleklee

I don't have the PTS, so wondering how StamDK is holding up? I pretty much switched to that as my main DPS and would hate to see that get badly nerfed too because of the off balance changes, especially when I just got the vMA bow for her.

Vaoh

Izaki wrote: »

As for Grim Focus... In terms of DPS this isn't actually as massive of a buff as everyone seems to be making it out to be. On average good Nightblades are able to get 3 bow procs every 17.something seconds. This change will allow them to squeeze in 1 or maybe 2 extra stacks, which would basically mean an extra bow proc every 3 or 4 rotations. The DPS increase isn't massive. Especially in raids. In 99% of situations this buff will just mean that you can afford to screw up your rotation and not lose too much DPS.

That’s a really big thing though because you aren’t really punished anymore for the tiny mistake of missing a light attack. Makes it easier even for the really good Mag NBs. Also on console it will be a huuuge buff because 3-proc rotation was basically impossible with our lag/FPS issues for many fights.

It’s more the Mag NB DPS buff alongside the nerf to all other Mag DPS classes/the removal of their group utility of providing Offbalance. This happens as Mag NB is already ahead of others.

Izaki

As far as everything goes... It will be very different.

About Sorcs... You can't afford to not have any Sorcs in the group because they still provide a synergy. Let me rephrase that: THE one synergy that makes it possible to maintain a high Alkosh uptime. Mag Sorcs also have massive AoE compared to Magblades. They definitely lose out in single target DPS, but in AoE they are well ahead of all the other classes. Plus they still are the class that spams Force Pulse, meaning that they still will be the class that will be the most efficient with an Asylum Staff for applying the Burning and the Concussed status effects. Just because Off Balance isn't as big of a thing as it used to be doesn't mean that Minor Vulnerability is suddenly useless. Why can't a Magblade use an Asylum Staff? Of course they can, but their sustain gets considerably worse and they lose their capability to "off-heal" which would put a lot more stress on healers which in turn will most likely result in worse buff uptimes. So Sorcs will still have their place as AoE Kings, Alkosh enablers and Concussion bringers. In short, they are still the most useful class in the game and they will definitely have their place in every raid group that knows what its doing.

As far as stamina builds go, the "brainless" heavy attack rotations will see a pretty big DPS decrease, since 80% of the time heavy attacks will be doing 75% less damage. All stamina builds will take a nerf of about 8% damage done to the face because Exploiter won't be active 80% of the time in a boss fight. What does this mean? This means that light attack builds and harder rotations will be back. Stormfist is going to become a very common monster piece and will probably be used in every fight aside from Ra Kotu, Stone Foundation Atro, Varlariel and the Hunters Killers where Velidreth is still the absolute BiS. Stamblades and Stam Wardens will be much more common in raids which is a good thing, but my guess is that most people will struggle since these 2 classes have the hardest rotations. So basically, this change will get rid of the Stam DK and Stam Sorc supremacy which was ridiculously stupid since the rotations could be done with eyes closed and still would net the highest DPS in the game. Stamina classes will all be more on par with each other and the stamina DPS in general will go down by about 8% which is also very good, because they were a bit too strong.

Magicka classes will finally be able to stop putting 75 points into Thaumaturge, which will most likely and I don't expect their DPS to lower too much because of their ability to redistribute their CP.

Magplars, MagDKs and Mag Wardens however... Well that's a different story. MagDKs got a massive buff in PvP with the 3.0 PTS patch, so the Flame Lash cooldown was definitely needed for that scenario. In PvE... Well ZOS are probably still wondering how to make them work. Magplars will most likely see a significant DPS increase in light of the well over due fixes to their main DPS abilites, but there's a very low chance for them to make a comeback into raids. Mag Wardens still suck terribly.

Vaoh

Izaki wrote: »

As far as everything goes... It will be very different.

About Sorcs... You can't afford to not have any Sorcs in the group because they still provide a synergy. Let me rephrase that: THE one synergy that makes it possible to maintain a high Alkosh uptime. Mag Sorcs also have massive AoE compared to Magblades. They definitely lose out in single target DPS, but in AoE they are well ahead of all the other classes. Plus they still are the class that spams Force Pulse, meaning that they still will be the class that will be the most efficient with an Asylum Staff for applying the Burning and the Concussed status effects. Just because Off Balance isn't as big of a thing as it used to be doesn't mean that Minor Vulnerability is suddenly useless. Why can't a Magblade use an Asylum Staff? Of course they can, but their sustain gets considerably worse and they lose their capability to "off-heal" which would put a lot more stress on healers which in turn will most likely result in worse buff uptimes. So Sorcs will still have their place as AoE Kings, Alkosh enablers and Concussion bringers. In short, they are still the most useful class in the game and they will definitely have their place in every raid group that knows what its doing.

As far as stamina builds go, the "brainless" heavy attack rotations will see a pretty big DPS decrease, since 80% of the time heavy attacks will be doing 75% less damage. All stamina builds will take a nerf of about 8% damage done to the face because Exploiter won't be active 80% of the time in a boss fight. What does this mean? This means that light attack builds and harder rotations will be back. Stormfist is going to become a very common monster piece and will probably be used in every fight aside from Ra Kotu, Stone Foundation Atro, Varlariel and the Hunters Killers where Velidreth is still the absolute BiS. Stamblades and Stam Wardens will be much more common in raids which is a good thing, but my guess is that most people will struggle since these 2 classes have the hardest rotations. So basically, this change will get rid of the Stam DK and Stam Sorc supremacy which was ridiculously stupid since the rotations could be done with eyes closed and still would net the highest DPS in the game. Stamina classes will all be more on par with each other and the stamina DPS in general will go down by about 8% which is also very good, because they were a bit too strong.

Magicka classes will finally be able to stop putting 75 points into Thaumaturge, which will most likely and I don't expect their DPS to lower too much because of their ability to redistribute their CP.

Magplars, MagDKs and Mag Wardens however... Well that's a different story. MagDKs got a massive buff in PvP with the 3.0 PTS patch, so the Flame Lash cooldown was definitely needed for that scenario. In PvE... Well ZOS are probably still wondering how to make them work. Magplars will most likely see a significant DPS increase in light of the well over due fixes to their main DPS abilites, but there's a very low chance for them to make a comeback into raids. Mag Wardens still suck terribly.

I’ve heard lots of ppl so far saying that Alkosh might not be worth it anymore because of 30sec synergy duration and the increased difficulty of tanking. Really good analysis but we obv need to test a lot on PTS to see how true it all is. If Conduit isn’t needed then Sorc is in an even worse spot. Still pretty sure it’ll be worth having one Sorc usually but idk.

AoE DPS isn’t that important because everything already dies quick in AoE and even moreso with DPS using Shrouded Daggers.

Mag Sorc/Warden/Templar/DK all need better single target DPS though. Especially Warden and DK are a mess.

Faulgor

Vaoh wrote: »

Yet for all of those players who can’t even beat Vet trials or struggle immensely, there is zero reason to choose something besides Mag NB.

This is a really important point. All of this will affect rubbish players like myself even more than the hardcore vet trial runners.
My main dps char is a heavy attack mag sorc, with which I can pull just above 30k dps thanks to the simple rotation. That build will be destroyed with the off-balance changes - and as someone who actually likes heavy attack builds and played them way before Morrowind, this probably annoys me the most.

Now, with the easier magNB rotation, there is really no reason to chose another class, even for bad players.
The most fun I've always had with magDK, and although they weren't fit for trials, I at least could do dungeons with them. Even that will not be feasible anymore.
MagWardens have been in a hole since release, and every update we asked for buffs. How this can remain unaddressed for a year is beyond my comprehension.
I haven't heard anything about ranged MagPlars in a while, though. How would they be doing without off-balance?

Vaoh wrote: »

One thing I didn’t think about was Stam NB. I wonder if they’ve gotten noticeably stronger compared to other Stam classes.

Most likely. Builds that rely more on HAs like DK and Sorc will drop quite a bit, while NBs won't be affected much and get a more forgiving rotation. It will be NBs everywhere.

rustic_potato

Vaoh wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

As far as everything goes... It will be very different.

About Sorcs... You can't afford to not have any Sorcs in the group because they still provide a synergy. Let me rephrase that: THE one synergy that makes it possible to maintain a high Alkosh uptime. Mag Sorcs also have massive AoE compared to Magblades. They definitely lose out in single target DPS, but in AoE they are well ahead of all the other classes. Plus they still are the class that spams Force Pulse, meaning that they still will be the class that will be the most efficient with an Asylum Staff for applying the Burning and the Concussed status effects. Just because Off Balance isn't as big of a thing as it used to be doesn't mean that Minor Vulnerability is suddenly useless. Why can't a Magblade use an Asylum Staff? Of course they can, but their sustain gets considerably worse and they lose their capability to "off-heal" which would put a lot more stress on healers which in turn will most likely result in worse buff uptimes. So Sorcs will still have their place as AoE Kings, Alkosh enablers and Concussion bringers. In short, they are still the most useful class in the game and they will definitely have their place in every raid group that knows what its doing.

As far as stamina builds go, the "brainless" heavy attack rotations will see a pretty big DPS decrease, since 80% of the time heavy attacks will be doing 75% less damage. All stamina builds will take a nerf of about 8% damage done to the face because Exploiter won't be active 80% of the time in a boss fight. What does this mean? This means that light attack builds and harder rotations will be back. Stormfist is going to become a very common monster piece and will probably be used in every fight aside from Ra Kotu, Stone Foundation Atro, Varlariel and the Hunters Killers where Velidreth is still the absolute BiS. Stamblades and Stam Wardens will be much more common in raids which is a good thing, but my guess is that most people will struggle since these 2 classes have the hardest rotations. So basically, this change will get rid of the Stam DK and Stam Sorc supremacy which was ridiculously stupid since the rotations could be done with eyes closed and still would net the highest DPS in the game. Stamina classes will all be more on par with each other and the stamina DPS in general will go down by about 8% which is also very good, because they were a bit too strong.

Magicka classes will finally be able to stop putting 75 points into Thaumaturge, which will most likely and I don't expect their DPS to lower too much because of their ability to redistribute their CP.

Magplars, MagDKs and Mag Wardens however... Well that's a different story. MagDKs got a massive buff in PvP with the 3.0 PTS patch, so the Flame Lash cooldown was definitely needed for that scenario. In PvE... Well ZOS are probably still wondering how to make them work. Magplars will most likely see a significant DPS increase in light of the well over due fixes to their main DPS abilites, but there's a very low chance for them to make a comeback into raids. Mag Wardens still suck terribly.

I’ve heard lots of ppl so far saying that Alkosh might not be worth it anymore because of 30sec synergy duration and the increased difficulty of tanking. Really good analysis but we obv need to test a lot on PTS to see how true it all is. If Conduit isn’t needed then Sorc is in an even worse spot. Still pretty sure it’ll be worth having one Sorc usually but idk.

AoE DPS isn’t that important because everything already dies quick in AoE and even moreso with DPS using Shrouded Daggers.

Mag Sorc/Warden/Templar/DK all need better single target DPS though. Especially Warden and DK are a mess.

Stam is stronger in AOE DPS compared to a mSorc. SO groups, where trash is everything, maximize stam and nightblades for faster destro ults.

mSorc's only saving grace is easy 30k DPS with a rotation that is very forgiving. You could not weave at all and still hit numbers.

mNB is easier with the new change but it is still the most unforgiving DPS rotation among all the classes. Every missed weave adds up. Them having a higher ceiling is rightly justified for the complexity of the class. But the others are pretty far back that it looks like a joke.

Vaoh

rustic_potato wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

As far as everything goes... It will be very different.

About Sorcs... You can't afford to not have any Sorcs in the group because they still provide a synergy. Let me rephrase that: THE one synergy that makes it possible to maintain a high Alkosh uptime. Mag Sorcs also have massive AoE compared to Magblades. They definitely lose out in single target DPS, but in AoE they are well ahead of all the other classes. Plus they still are the class that spams Force Pulse, meaning that they still will be the class that will be the most efficient with an Asylum Staff for applying the Burning and the Concussed status effects. Just because Off Balance isn't as big of a thing as it used to be doesn't mean that Minor Vulnerability is suddenly useless. Why can't a Magblade use an Asylum Staff? Of course they can, but their sustain gets considerably worse and they lose their capability to "off-heal" which would put a lot more stress on healers which in turn will most likely result in worse buff uptimes. So Sorcs will still have their place as AoE Kings, Alkosh enablers and Concussion bringers. In short, they are still the most useful class in the game and they will definitely have their place in every raid group that knows what its doing.

As far as stamina builds go, the "brainless" heavy attack rotations will see a pretty big DPS decrease, since 80% of the time heavy attacks will be doing 75% less damage. All stamina builds will take a nerf of about 8% damage done to the face because Exploiter won't be active 80% of the time in a boss fight. What does this mean? This means that light attack builds and harder rotations will be back. Stormfist is going to become a very common monster piece and will probably be used in every fight aside from Ra Kotu, Stone Foundation Atro, Varlariel and the Hunters Killers where Velidreth is still the absolute BiS. Stamblades and Stam Wardens will be much more common in raids which is a good thing, but my guess is that most people will struggle since these 2 classes have the hardest rotations. So basically, this change will get rid of the Stam DK and Stam Sorc supremacy which was ridiculously stupid since the rotations could be done with eyes closed and still would net the highest DPS in the game. Stamina classes will all be more on par with each other and the stamina DPS in general will go down by about 8% which is also very good, because they were a bit too strong.

Magicka classes will finally be able to stop putting 75 points into Thaumaturge, which will most likely and I don't expect their DPS to lower too much because of their ability to redistribute their CP.

Magplars, MagDKs and Mag Wardens however... Well that's a different story. MagDKs got a massive buff in PvP with the 3.0 PTS patch, so the Flame Lash cooldown was definitely needed for that scenario. In PvE... Well ZOS are probably still wondering how to make them work. Magplars will most likely see a significant DPS increase in light of the well over due fixes to their main DPS abilites, but there's a very low chance for them to make a comeback into raids. Mag Wardens still suck terribly.

I’ve heard lots of ppl so far saying that Alkosh might not be worth it anymore because of 30sec synergy duration and the increased difficulty of tanking. Really good analysis but we obv need to test a lot on PTS to see how true it all is. If Conduit isn’t needed then Sorc is in an even worse spot. Still pretty sure it’ll be worth having one Sorc usually but idk.

AoE DPS isn’t that important because everything already dies quick in AoE and even moreso with DPS using Shrouded Daggers.

Mag Sorc/Warden/Templar/DK all need better single target DPS though. Especially Warden and DK are a mess.

Stam is stronger in AOE DPS compared to a mSorc. SO groups, where trash is everything, maximize stam and nightblades for faster destro ults.

mSorc's only saving grace is easy 30k DPS with a rotation that is very forgiving. You could not weave at all and still hit numbers.

mNB is easier with the new change but it is still the most unforgiving DPS rotation among all the classes. Every missed weave adds up. Them having a higher ceiling is rightly justified for the complexity of the class. But the others are pretty far back that it looks like a joke.

Yup. Also it’s very important to mention that Mag NBs provide offheals which is an enormous benefit.

usmcjdking

At this point, I am vehemently against changes that are designed to ultimately change score pushing loadouts.

Why? Because there is no point. Scorepushers/metadesigners/metahumpers will use the best available builds regardless of whatever it is. If CP was not shared and we returned back to a V16 leveling system, you could justify adjusting your game based off the meta in favor of balancing class performance amongst the three core roles.

But with as easy it is to level an alt? No need to change the meta by any margin...except for Werewolf. WW still massively detrimental to a solid group and straight up non-functional in a progressive raid. As far as I'm concerned, WW is the only class/build that is exclusively excluded out of raids because of ZOS's vegetable-like decisions for how they function.

Issues with Mag DK/Magplars completing content and being endgame pariahs is entirely player driven. Rotating them back into the top will simply ensure that the other DPS/Tank/healer bottom feeders are never taken and you'll get a whole new slew of QQ coming in from different classes. If your raid leader won't take your Mag DK or Magplar and that is causing you a level of grief high enough to feel the need to post here - why should anyone or ZOS ultimately care or pay heed to what a specific individual consumer is doing?

Wasted effort IMO, the man hours are better used elsewhere. With that said there are some blatant fixes and buffs that could happen to ensure the two classes are functioning to the best of their ability, but entire combat design reworks to see these two classes reign supreme again is pointless.

Vaoh

usmcjdking wrote: »

At this point, I am vehemently against changes that are designed to ultimately change score pushing loadouts.

Why? Because there is no point. Scorepushers/metadesigners/metahumpers will use the best available builds regardless of whatever it is. If CP was not shared and we returned back to a V16 leveling system, you could justify adjusting your game based off the meta in favor of balancing class performance amongst the three core roles.

But with as easy it is to level an alt? No need to change the meta by any margin...except for Werewolf. WW still massively detrimental to a solid group and straight up non-functional in a progressive raid. As far as I'm concerned, WW is the only class/build that is exclusively excluded out of raids because of ZOS's vegetable-like decisions for how they function.

Issues with Mag DK/Magplars completing content and being endgame pariahs is entirely player driven. Rotating them back into the top will simply ensure that the other DPS/Tank/healer bottom feeders are never taken and you'll get a whole new slew of QQ coming in from different classes. If your raid leader won't take your Mag DK or Magplar and that is causing you a level of grief high enough to feel the need to post here - why should anyone or ZOS ultimately care or pay heed to what a specific individual consumer is doing?

Wasted effort IMO, the man hours are better used elsewhere. With that said there are some blatant fixes and buffs that could happen to ensure the two classes are functioning to the best of their ability, but entire combat design reworks to see these two classes reign supreme again is pointless.

So basically what you’re saying is to accept bad balance and stop complaining?.... unless it’s related to Werewolf which in your book is the only thing that is needing of a balance change in this game...

No one said anything like that, and idk why you’re attacking me specifically lol. Certain specs are really bad (like you mentioned Werewolf) so ppl ask, reasonably, to fix the issue. Same way we ask to fix bugs - there’s an issue in the game that is best solved. No one is asking to make Mag DKs and Magplars “reign supreme”. You’ve missed to point of this thread and went on a rant. Chill lol

usmcjdking

Vaoh wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

At this point, I am vehemently against changes that are designed to ultimately change score pushing loadouts.

Why? Because there is no point. Scorepushers/metadesigners/metahumpers will use the best available builds regardless of whatever it is. If CP was not shared and we returned back to a V16 leveling system, you could justify adjusting your game based off the meta in favor of balancing class performance amongst the three core roles.

But with as easy it is to level an alt? No need to change the meta by any margin...except for Werewolf. WW still massively detrimental to a solid group and straight up non-functional in a progressive raid. As far as I'm concerned, WW is the only class/build that is exclusively excluded out of raids because of ZOS's vegetable-like decisions for how they function.

Issues with Mag DK/Magplars completing content and being endgame pariahs is entirely player driven. Rotating them back into the top will simply ensure that the other DPS/Tank/healer bottom feeders are never taken and you'll get a whole new slew of QQ coming in from different classes. If your raid leader won't take your Mag DK or Magplar and that is causing you a level of grief high enough to feel the need to post here - why should anyone or ZOS ultimately care or pay heed to what a specific individual consumer is doing?

Wasted effort IMO, the man hours are better used elsewhere. With that said there are some blatant fixes and buffs that could happen to ensure the two classes are functioning to the best of their ability, but entire combat design reworks to see these two classes reign supreme again is pointless.

So basically what you’re saying is to accept bad balance and stop complaining?.... unless it’s related to Werewolf which in your book is the only thing that is needing of a balance change in this game...

No one said anything like that, and idk why you’re attacking me specifically lol. Certain specs are really bad (like you mentioned Werewolf) so ppl ask, reasonably, to fix the issue. Same way we ask to fix bugs - there’s an issue in the game that is best solved. No one is asking to make Mag DKs and Magplars “reign supreme”. You’ve missed to point of this thread and went on a rant. Chill lol

I literally have no idea how you determined that I was addressing you specifically - much less that I came at you sideways.

I gave my opinion. I'm not interested in any rebuttals from disagreeing parties atm.

Edit: I'll clarify that I do understand now why you feel I directed this post at you. The 'yous' were et al, not directed specifically at you or anyone in particular.

Vaoh

usmcjdking wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

At this point, I am vehemently against changes that are designed to ultimately change score pushing loadouts.

Why? Because there is no point. Scorepushers/metadesigners/metahumpers will use the best available builds regardless of whatever it is. If CP was not shared and we returned back to a V16 leveling system, you could justify adjusting your game based off the meta in favor of balancing class performance amongst the three core roles.

But with as easy it is to level an alt? No need to change the meta by any margin...except for Werewolf. WW still massively detrimental to a solid group and straight up non-functional in a progressive raid. As far as I'm concerned, WW is the only class/build that is exclusively excluded out of raids because of ZOS's vegetable-like decisions for how they function.

Issues with Mag DK/Magplars completing content and being endgame pariahs is entirely player driven. Rotating them back into the top will simply ensure that the other DPS/Tank/healer bottom feeders are never taken and you'll get a whole new slew of QQ coming in from different classes. If your raid leader won't take your Mag DK or Magplar and that is causing you a level of grief high enough to feel the need to post here - why should anyone or ZOS ultimately care or pay heed to what a specific individual consumer is doing?

Wasted effort IMO, the man hours are better used elsewhere. With that said there are some blatant fixes and buffs that could happen to ensure the two classes are functioning to the best of their ability, but entire combat design reworks to see these two classes reign supreme again is pointless.

So basically what you’re saying is to accept bad balance and stop complaining?.... unless it’s related to Werewolf which in your book is the only thing that is needing of a balance change in this game...

No one said anything like that, and idk why you’re attacking me specifically lol. Certain specs are really bad (like you mentioned Werewolf) so ppl ask, reasonably, to fix the issue. Same way we ask to fix bugs - there’s an issue in the game that is best solved. No one is asking to make Mag DKs and Magplars “reign supreme”. You’ve missed to point of this thread and went on a rant. Chill lol

I literally have no idea how you determined that I was addressing you specifically - much less that I came at you sideways.

I gave my opinion. I'm not interested in any rebuttals from disagreeing parties atm.

usmcjdking wrote: »

If your raid leader won't take your Mag DK or Magplar and that is causing you a level of grief high enough to feel the need to post here - why should anyone or ZOS ultimately care or pay heed to what a specific individual consumer is doing?

@usmcjdking That sounded like it was addressed to me. If not nvm.

Qbiken

Liofa wrote: »

Best Magicka DPS gets buffed while worst one gets nerfed even more .

Quoted for truth + I like Frank

Rjizzle09

I have a question lol why in the world does it take a whole entire day for pts to get back online so I can test. Have they gotten that bad at pushing out patches now or what's going on?

Feanor

LadyLethalla wrote: »

Would this also mean that MNB would be "easiest" to complete VMA on...? Please say no... not now that I've levelled a mSorc on NA.

vMA has very little to do with DPS as there is only 1 real DPS check - Matriarch Runa on stage 5 on the last platform. Maelstrom Arena is about survivability and prioritizing targets correctly. Pet Sorc is still the way to clear with no sweat because it is really forgiving.

On topic I’m surprised NBs got buffs again now. They certainly didn’t need them, especially when you consider the state of DKs and Templars. Also I’d still love Sorc changes - not necessarily buffs, but an end to toggles and overall more build variety if it comes to the class kit. It’s the most one dimensional class in the game.

Alcast

ZOS repeatedly said they will look at class balance in the NEXT update. Hope remains small tho, even if they try to balance the classes I already see them failing, because how does the main combat lead want to balance a game that he does not even understand himself?
Also, luckily I grinded up a Magblade during the double EXP event lol.

Also, I hate the heavy attack playstyle in pve so much, its boring

Vaoh

Alcast wrote: »

ZOS repeatedly said they will look at class balance in the NEXT update. Hope remains small tho, even if they try to balance the classes I already see them failing, because how does the main combat lead want to balance a game that he does not even understand himself?
Also, luckily I grinded up a Magblade during the double EXP event lol.

Also, I hate the heavy attack playstyle in pve so much, its boring

It still worries me because they made such large changes with this PTS patch. I look forward to seeing all of the testing when PTS goes live so we can really understand what Wrobel just did.... not much hope things will turn out well though

And yes the heavy attacking is so unfun. I miss the days of heavy attacks *not* being our spammable DPS unless you’re a Magblade ofc

Hamburglarjones

Alcast wrote: »

ZOS repeatedly said they will look at class balance in the NEXT update. Hope remains small tho, even if they try to balance the classes I already see them failing, because how does the main combat lead want to balance a game that he does not even understand himself?
Also, luckily I grinded up a Magblade during the double EXP event lol.

Also, I hate the heavy attack playstyle in pve so much, its boring

It's obvious that the designer knows what he is doing, and it is rotating the META around so the game is fresh every 3+ updates. I just wish the gap between these off-META classes wasn't so gigantic. Nerf magDK into the ground this update so truly nobody plays it then bring it back next update so everyone can hop onto a class they all forgot about.

Alcast

Hamburglarjones wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

ZOS repeatedly said they will look at class balance in the NEXT update. Hope remains small tho, even if they try to balance the classes I already see them failing, because how does the main combat lead want to balance a game that he does not even understand himself?
Also, luckily I grinded up a Magblade during the double EXP event lol.

Also, I hate the heavy attack playstyle in pve so much, its boring

It's obvious that the designer knows what he is doing, and it is rotating the META around so the game is fresh every 3+ updates. I just wish the gap between these off-META classes wasn't so gigantic. Nerf magDK into the ground this update so truly nobody plays it then bring it back next update so everyone can hop onto a class they all forgot about.

Trust me, they do NOT.

Faulgor

Vaoh wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

ZOS repeatedly said they will look at class balance in the NEXT update. Hope remains small tho, even if they try to balance the classes I already see them failing, because how does the main combat lead want to balance a game that he does not even understand himself?
Also, luckily I grinded up a Magblade during the double EXP event lol.

Also, I hate the heavy attack playstyle in pve so much, its boring

It still worries me because they made such large changes with this PTS patch. I look forward to seeing all of the testing when PTS goes live so we can really understand what Wrobel just did.... not much hope things will turn out well though

And yes the heavy attacking is so unfun. I miss the days of heavy attacks *not* being our spammable DPS unless you’re a Magblade ofc

I loved heavy attack builds when they were an optional playstyle. Morrowind removed pure light attack builds, and this patch will remove pure heavy attack builds, leaving us with a uniform rotation of light and heavy attacks that nobody is happy with.
Ideally we'd have light, heavy and mixed rotations that do comparable DPS to allow for a variety of tastes and skill levels, but it's clear they don't care for that.

Hamburglarjones

Alcast wrote: »

Hamburglarjones wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

ZOS repeatedly said they will look at class balance in the NEXT update. Hope remains small tho, even if they try to balance the classes I already see them failing, because how does the main combat lead want to balance a game that he does not even understand himself?
Also, luckily I grinded up a Magblade during the double EXP event lol.

Also, I hate the heavy attack playstyle in pve so much, its boring

It's obvious that the designer knows what he is doing, and it is rotating the META around so the game is fresh every 3+ updates. I just wish the gap between these off-META classes wasn't so gigantic. Nerf magDK into the ground this update so truly nobody plays it then bring it back next update so everyone can hop onto a class they all forgot about.

Trust me, they do NOT.

SASQUATCH0

It’s like damn i was gonna keep my magdk as a pvp character but with powerlash nerf even pvp magdk might suck now

Izaki

Faulgor wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Yet for all of those players who can’t even beat Vet trials or struggle immensely, there is zero reason to choose something besides Mag NB.

This is a really important point. All of this will affect rubbish players like myself even more than the hardcore vet trial runners.
My main dps char is a heavy attack mag sorc, with which I can pull just above 30k dps thanks to the simple rotation. That build will be destroyed with the off-balance changes - and as someone who actually likes heavy attack builds and played them way before Morrowind, this probably annoys me the most.

Now, with the easier magNB rotation, there is really no reason to chose another class, even for bad players.
The most fun I've always had with magDK, and although they weren't fit for trials, I at least could do dungeons with them. Even that will not be feasible anymore.
MagWardens have been in a hole since release, and every update we asked for buffs. How this can remain unaddressed for a year is beyond my comprehension.
I haven't heard anything about ranged MagPlars in a while, though. How would they be doing without off-balance?

Vaoh wrote: »

One thing I didn’t think about was Stam NB. I wonder if they’ve gotten noticeably stronger compared to other Stam classes.

Most likely. Builds that rely more on HAs like DK and Sorc will drop quite a bit, while NBs won't be affected much and get a more forgiving rotation. It will be NBs everywhere.

I love how people say that. 90% of the stamblades out there heavy attack almost as much as a stam sorc or a stam DK because they have to. With Leeching Strikes they can afford to do 1 less HA per rotation. That still makes it at least 2 heavy attacks. 2 heavy attacks per rotation means 4 heavy attacks per cast of Relentless Focus. No way you're getting the 3 bow procs consistently. You'll most likely gain an extra proc every 3 or 4 rotations but that's it.
In terms of the Heavy Attack damage nerf, other classes will adapt and they'll be doing just as much DPS as Stamblades.

ruikkarikun

Are they dont read those topics and will left all changes and nerfs? What is the point?


Can someone tell me:

1) Will be mag sorc viable to solo? vet dungeons and normal Trials?

2) About better mag NB, what race should I pick Altmer or Dark Elf, I mean after off balance changed Altmer is usefull?

Izaki

Faulgor wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

ZOS repeatedly said they will look at class balance in the NEXT update. Hope remains small tho, even if they try to balance the classes I already see them failing, because how does the main combat lead want to balance a game that he does not even understand himself?
Also, luckily I grinded up a Magblade during the double EXP event lol.

Also, I hate the heavy attack playstyle in pve so much, its boring

It still worries me because they made such large changes with this PTS patch. I look forward to seeing all of the testing when PTS goes live so we can really understand what Wrobel just did.... not much hope things will turn out well though

And yes the heavy attacking is so unfun. I miss the days of heavy attacks *not* being our spammable DPS unless you’re a Magblade ofc

I loved heavy attack builds when they were an optional playstyle. Morrowind removed pure light attack builds, and this patch will remove pure heavy attack builds, leaving us with a uniform rotation of light and heavy attacks that nobody is happy with.
Ideally we'd have light, heavy and mixed rotations that do comparable DPS to allow for a variety of tastes and skill levels, but it's clear they don't care for that.

This is actually kind of what's going to happen. When you test it on a dummy, pure heavy attack builds, pure light attack bulds and mixed builds all deal very comparable DPS with the heavy attack ones generally being towards the bottom of the spectrum and the mixed being near the top. Which makes perfect sense since mixed builds require more concentration and active thought that pure heavy or light attack builds where you just do your rotation over and over without thinking about resources. In raids, you'll observe a very similar situation.

Seriously people, stop panicking and predicting how apocalypse will happen and just go test things for once in the history of PTS patches.

BigBadVolk

ruikkarikun wrote: »

Are they dont read those topics and will left all changes and nerfs? What is the point?


Can someone tell me:

1) Will be mag sorc viable to solo? vet dungeons and normal Trials?

2) About better mag NB, what race should I pick Altmer or Dark Elf, I mean after off balance changed Altmer is usefull?

1) magsorcs will be viable for everything, just need to adapt harder till ZoS finds a way to make sustain easier then it is now
2) doesnt really matter, for min maxing now Dark Elf will be better cause most likely NBs will run double inferno

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO

Mage Nightblades are currently stronger than Sorcs for trials especially for vAS. With all updates on PTS it seems they will be even stronger. ZOS should not nerf them, instead they should buff other magica classes: a buff to Sorc, and especially a huge buff to Templars and Wardens (some skills needed to be adjusted to not ruin the PvP aspect for them).

The only thing that personally was preventing me from playing this class was my inability to correctly measure the stacks in Grim Focus, but this is now resolved

Siliziumdioxid

Faulgor wrote: »

I haven't heard anything about ranged MagPlars in a while, though. How would they be doing without off-balance?

Well by using a HA build and with the broken off-balance i was getting around 39k selfbuffed pretty consistently on the PTS. After that i tested a setup with Flameblockade and without minor vulnerability and i was hitting around 35k selfbuffed. Further notice: Using a Lightattack Build is not very beneficial for a templar: You are basically draining your resources before execute phase and execute then with less bonus damage. So basically the HA damage + the execute bonus damage is now outperforming the spammable dps gain.(with whatever they did to the J-Beam).

I did not test since yesterdays update however if you want my guess on what is best for magplar dps now i say it is the double clench + heavy attack rotation. it relies less on the heavy attack damage while having way more sustain than a Light-attack build.(HA got a ~16% Ressource buff with that)
However i'm pretty sad when i think about what i can do selfbuffed on my stam dps compared to my magplar. I think my fears are about to become true in the next few hours when i login to the PTS
I hope that they never force Magplars back to using sweeps.

Derra

Hamburglarjones wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Hamburglarjones wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

ZOS repeatedly said they will look at class balance in the NEXT update. Hope remains small tho, even if they try to balance the classes I already see them failing, because how does the main combat lead want to balance a game that he does not even understand himself?
Also, luckily I grinded up a Magblade during the double EXP event lol.

Also, I hate the heavy attack playstyle in pve so much, its boring

It's obvious that the designer knows what he is doing, and it is rotating the META around so the game is fresh every 3+ updates. I just wish the gap between these off-META classes wasn't so gigantic. Nerf magDK into the ground this update so truly nobody plays it then bring it back next update so everyone can hop onto a class they all forgot about.

Trust me, they do NOT.

I have to say - i trust the guy more that actually met the person in question.