What's killing builds?

Tan9oSuccka

Streamer groupies.

Always looking for the latest cheese.

coop500

Endless nerfs and very little buffs is what's killing builds, no matter which side you wanna blame

Moloch1514

There was an ESO Live last year where the combat team dev admitted that balancing PvE and PvP separately would be "too hard" and take too much time. That is who we are paying folks.

Aisle9

Moloch1514 wrote: »

There was an ESO Live last year where the combat team dev admitted that balancing PvE and PvP separately would be "too hard" and take too much time. That is who we are paying folks.

That sounds like a reasonable argument from an informed source, so... ok?

Moloch1514

Aisle9 wrote: »

Moloch1514 wrote: »

There was an ESO Live last year where the combat team dev admitted that balancing PvE and PvP separately would be "too hard" and take too much time. That is who we are paying folks.

That sounds like a reasonable argument from an informed source, so... ok?

I wish I could tell my boss that the dashboard project I'm working on is too hard and will take too much time. It won't seem reasonable to her I promise!

Buffler

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

Yes. I don't know who at Zenimax thought it was fine to nerf everyone because sustain was becoming a problem in PVP, but I hope they got fired. I also hope whoever could have prevented that mass nerfing but did nothing also got fired.

They actually nerfed sustain due to pve so get things correct. The fact mechanics were getting completely ignored in their supposed hardest trials was the catalyst.

Aisle9

Moloch1514 wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Moloch1514 wrote: »

There was an ESO Live last year where the combat team dev admitted that balancing PvE and PvP separately would be "too hard" and take too much time. That is who we are paying folks.

That sounds like a reasonable argument from an informed source, so... ok?

I wish I could tell my boss that the dashboard project I'm working on is too hard and will take too much time. It won't seem reasonable to her I promise!

Yeah, that would be nice, but it's also completely unrelated to your previous statement. See there's a fallacy there: ZoS' employees are not your employees, you're a customer, you're paying for the product, that generates revenue, that makes the company thrive, but doesn't get to the combat system dev team. They have wages, so you're not paying them.

Unless you're Zenimax's CEO, which I'm pretty sure you're not, but, hey, feel free to prove me wrong.

Moloch1514

As someone who has subbed since launch with no breaks, I am just a stakeholder concerned that my funds aren't getting used efficiently. It seems like most of the revenue coming in is going to marketing efforts and art assets for Crown crates. I think a lot of us would rather see more investment going towards getting the combat team the resources needed to do things right.

Mettaricana

Its the refusal to break the crit spam meta dps is either all crit or nothing at all. Also woth things like daggers adding more crit it becomes an almost forced dw making all stam builds a crit spamming dw only thing.

And magic is just boring same sets same crit spam mentality.

Tanks are about all the same stack ult regen warhorn poke things.

They need new weapons, skills, and to change up some of the base game funtions id rather see crit dmg nerfed or atleast the gap between it and regular hits dropped and see more actual diversity like a max dmg build or a crit build or an exploit a weakness type build but atm.its all crit spam.

And the max resources affecting dps numbers firther crushes build diversity because it turned into max crit and max resource all other features can take a hike.

Armor types unless your the tank it doesnt matter its like dungeon bosses 1 shot light and medium so whats the point in armor aside from passives. Not gonna lie this games heavy reliance on one shot kill mechanics and dmg is worry some.

Stack it all together and you're locked into dw crit glass canon. Or a ult spam tank or a shield spam glass canon magicka dps same traits among all all dps and same traits among all tanks renders half the games gear sets worthless because they fill the role of mechanics that arent valid to begin with

Aisle9

Mettaricana wrote: »

Its the refusal to break the crit spam meta dps is either all crit or nothing at all. Also woth things like daggers adding more crit it becomes an almost forced dw making all stam builds a crit spamming dw only thing.

And magic is just boring same sets same crit spam mentality.

Tanks are about all the same stack ult regen warhorn poke things.

They need new weapons, skills, and to change up some of the base game funtions id rather see crit dmg nerfed or atleast the gap between it and regular hits dropped and see more actual diversity like a max dmg build or a crit build or an exploit a weakness type build but atm.its all crit spam.

And the max resources affecting dps numbers firther crushes build diversity because it turned into max crit and max resource all other features can take a hike.

Armor types unless your the tank it doesnt matter its like dungeon bosses 1 shot light and medium so whats the point in armor aside from passives. Not gonna lie this games heavy reliance on one shot kill mechanics and dmg is worry some.

Stack it all together and you're locked into dw crit glass canon. Or a ult spam tank or a shield spam glass canon magicka dps same traits among all all dps and same traits among all tanks renders half the games gear sets worthless because they fill the role of mechanics that arent valid to begin with

Ikr

This meta of using weapons to hit things...

I wish we could use just our fists.

The crit meta really cracked me up. So you're saying that critical damage does more damage, therefore people like it ?



Ok, serious, gonna give you a couple pointers:

1) You never go full crit.
2) Your max resources are also important to actually use your abilities (which have a cost).
3) Apprentice/Warrior (Spell/Weapon damage) atm is a better mundus than Thief(crit rating) and definitely better than Shadow(crit damage).
4) In endgame you really don't want to spam shields, but rather use them when you need them. They usually cost a lot.
5) Current endgame dps relies on people applying the Concussed status effect, and the Off-Balance status. That's kind of a big deal.
6) Commas are your friends.

Hope this helps.

QuebraRegra

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

Yes. I don't know who at Zenimax thought it was fine to nerf everyone because sustain was becoming a problem in PVP, but I hope they got fired. I also hope whoever could have prevented that mass nerfing but did nothing also got fired.

WROBEL

NewBlacksmurf

The developers are killing builds...the classes

I'd agree to some extent that separating Pve from PvP is a possible first step, however you still have the same developers in charge.
I mean...when you officially go public and say VR was too intertwined to remove it so you rolled it into CP. But a year ahead of that you said CP was to replace VR levels...then to read Matt F say that wasn't the original intent.

Aye....I mean those ESO Live shows are still saved.....I mean....at this point sshhhhh

My opinion is they were working on Dark Age of Camelot 2....and then somehow the studio wants the TES brand so instead of stepping back and starting fresh....it seems they tried to push what I call DAoC2 using a TES skin and artwork.

Now its just a mess as some of the original team left so you're stuck with this mess and the people who best understand it are gone.

SirAndy

Somber97866 wrote: »

What's killing builds?

Min/maxers hyperboling anything that is 0.01% below BiS into trash/useless ...

monktoasty

A mixture of pvp and pve problems..neither is solely to blame. Also investors just want more money..so nerf everything instead of concentrating on real fixes is the most cost effevtive..now they can just concentrate on trying to get more crown sales

LioraValkyrie

What kills builds? (Coming from a PvE perspective)

1) Thinking that Hodor and Mechanical-Something-Or-Other's way of doing things is the way that your own group should be doing things. Even if my group decides that the way these guilds do things is the best way, it will be infinitely more satisfying to come to that conclusion for ourselves through trial and error, as opposed to mindlessly copying.

2) Thinking that max dps is BiS for every situation. When your group wipes when the boss is at 2% health during enrage, maybe so. When your group wipes when the boss is at 76% health because you are all out of stamina and can't dodge out of a big red circle, more dps probably wouldn't have helped.

3) Nobody thinking that it might actually be fun to play defensively for a change. Yesterday, I did the last boss of vDSA with the tank taking Hiath the whole time and the healer and dds focussing the ads. After maybe 30-40 runs of vDSA, the ads died for the first time ever. It was awesome and felt more truly 'complete' than ever before!

4) Thinking that the class you play should have as much or more dps than all the other classes. My MagSorc has way less dps than StamBlade. I'm fine with that. Why? Because I have a big ****ing 10 second, 22k damage shield, mwahaha. Every class offers something unique in every role, and in some situation or other you'll no doubt find yourself thinking something along the lines of "Man, we would be so dead right now if that DK healer hadn't cast their Magma Shell!"

5) Thinking that mechanics exist to be bypassed or exploited. ZoS put them in the game because they thought that people might actually enjoy doing them! You know... for fun?

6) Thinking that you need 25k+ dps to complete Vet DLC dungeons and vMA. It's just not true! And I'm not saying this because I have less than 25k dps. I have literally resto staff heavy attacked Velidreth to death in a 2-man run while my partner focussed on rounding up the ads.

In summary, the community kills builds. There's always going to be a mathematically optimal group synergy that allows the completion of a particular trial faster than any other set of builds. But unless your sole focus is on heading up the leaderboards, just find a playstayle you like, get good at it and learn the game's mechanics as well as you can and any reasonable-minded player will be honoured to have you in their group.

kojou

Everyone knows that the heavy attack meta was less about lowering DPS and more about decreasing server load. If you have to take a 2 second pause to do a Lightning Heavy attack you are casting 20% less skills per rotation.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

The champion system is causing power creep and is the root cause of all the nerfs. Read "the root of the problem" by @DeanTheCat . its linked in my signature, and is still relevant today.

VaranisArano

SGT_Wolfe101st wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Somber97866 wrote: »

Is it ZOS not separating nerf's needed for pvp with pve?

They actually do a reasonably good job. Nothing's perfect.

There are main two types of nerfs. 1. The nerfs that fix something that was a problem. 2. The nerfs that destroy something that was "Best In Slot" or meta because ZOS very much likes to shake up the meta.

Examples of #1
Viper Set - nerfed from burst damage to a DOT = no change in PVE, rarely used now in PVP because there's no advantage to its burst anymore
Plague Doctor + Green Pact + Igneous Shield on high health tanks - when high health tanks start carrying groups through the hardest PVE content, ZOS fixed this one quick
Proc Set Criticals - a problem in PVP (Specifically Battlegrounds, ZOS' newest baby at the time and a way to lower group DPS in PVE (remember, lower group DPS means ZOS can design easier content)

Examples of #2
Armor Skills require 5 pieces to run - Killed Tava's Blessing + Shuffle as the BIS tank ulti-gen set
Crystal Frags - lost its stun, because it was BIS and ZOS wants people to use the other morph, pretty please!

There's plenty more examples of ZOS fixing problems and ZOS shaking up the meta. Heavy armor nerfs are somewhere in between - ZOS doesn't like PVE permablocking any more than they do in PVP. The Update 17 changes to Off Balance are a clear example of ZOS shaking up the meta for PVE.

Something else to keep in mind is that ZOS protects their latest content. Battlegrounds is supposed to be a moneymaker so that's why we saw a lot of Battleground nerfs when it came out. When your playerbase complains "I don't wanna play the new content because I'm getting killed by proc sets!" good Devs and panicked PR specialists listen. We also see a lot of PVE tweaking. Its not a coincidence that Tava's Blessing and heavy armor got nerfed right at the drop of a new trial. When high health tanks started carrying groups with high health shields after Morrowind, that got nerfed fast.

You can predict incoming nerfs pretty easily. What's the unquestioned BIS gear or skills? Expect ZOS to take a shot at it. Is someone in PVP or PVE overperforming? Expect some nerfs incoming. Note that this is especially true of PVE. PVP might sell copies of Morrowind for Battlegrounds, but PVE drives the majority of the game's sellable content. If PVE damage from high-end groups is too far above the average player's, that creates a huge problem for ZOS. From the developers perspective, its far better that the high end players get nerfed that that ZOS develop content average players can't play.

I don't disagree with what you have stated, it is very sensical, with that said, there comes a point to "what is the point?" We get strong, we effectively create builds that allow the content to be accomplished, perhaps faster and easier than Zos intended so they basically handicap us so the content is hard again. We deal, formulate, adapt, and wash rinse repeat. Its more the cycle than anything.

Its defintiely a cycle. That's because progression in this game and the feeling of success in this game is largely tied into having a meta buld and BIS gear.

Every time ZOS nerfs gear and skills, they guarantee that successful players won't feel successful for a long time, get their fix, and move on to other games. Instead, those players will now go grind for gear or swap builds - all of which gives ZOS more hours of playtime and possibly more crown store purchases. This keeps players interested or at least willing to grind without forcing the developers into an unfeasible schedule for new content.

Somber97866

Everyone, the first thing wrote was a question not a statement! Thought I'd clarify for the simple minded.

Ragnarock41

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

Yes. I don't know who at Zenimax thought it was fine to nerf everyone because sustain was becoming a problem in PVP, but I hope they got fired. I also hope whoever could have prevented that mass nerfing but did nothing also got fired.

Keep lying to yourself, People were solo cleaning vet content and trials guilds were literally crying for harder content.
Sustain nerfs happened mostly for PvE.

I still remember people crying about that they can't solo blackheart haven anymore.

Somber97866

So what's killing builds are ppl finding ways to put a character together that works extremely well. Going out and recking everyone one the block with it. Then when they tell everyone how its done those ppl that cannot beat them find out and go to forums and cry about it till zos nerfs it into oblivion causing ripples on both sides the pond. That's for pvp. In pve a single person or groups of ppl are going in and clearing vet hard mode dungeons ( sometimes outside of the door) in record breaking time, streaming it online and talking smack about how easy it is making the designers at ZOS feel played so they nerf everything into oblivion an causing ripples on both sides the pond. Does that sound about right or an I wrong on this?

TequilaFire

Yep, if they would separate PvE and PvP balance I would still have resource sustain in PvP.
Shame they had to nerf resource sustain due to people burning through their PvE content.

Dawnblade

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

The champion system is causing power creep and is the root cause of all the nerfs. Read "the root of the problem" by @DeanTheCat . its linked in my signature, and is still relevant today.

We have a winner - power creep (driven in large part through power gained with CP) allowed players to reach levels of sustain and performance that caused issues in PVP and an impossible situation in PVE.

And CP is a no win system for ZOS.

If they continue to let it grow - it will just end up causing issues in the future as the gap between low CP and high CP players grows, as does the gap in power between max CP players and content designed to be accessible to all players - including those with low CP.

If they remove it - long term players will pitch a fit as they feel entitled to the power gains received from playing the game over the years, and ZOS would still need some sort of replacement system for end-game character progression.

They could create content scaled to different CP levels - but that seems to go against the whole 1T philosophy of a world scaled to one level, as well as would still lead to an issue of what rewards would be given for completing high scaled content.

Somber97866

Sounds like the trophy for everyone problem.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Dawnblade wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

The champion system is causing power creep and is the root cause of all the nerfs. Read "the root of the problem" by @DeanTheCat . its linked in my signature, and is still relevant today.

We have a winner - power creep (driven in large part through power gained with CP) allowed players to reach levels of sustain and performance that caused issues in PVP and an impossible situation in PVE.

And CP is a no win system for ZOS.

If they continue to let it grow - it will just end up causing issues in the future as the gap between low CP and high CP players grows, as does the gap in power between max CP players and content designed to be accessible to all players - including those with low CP.

If they remove it - long term players will pitch a fit as they feel entitled to the power gains received from playing the game over the years, and ZOS would still need some sort of replacement system for end-game character progression.

They could create content scaled to different CP levels - but that seems to go against the whole 1T philosophy of a world scaled to one level, as well as would still lead to an issue of what rewards would be given for completing high scaled content.

Exactly. Except what all these people that would pitch a fit don't understand is the price they are paying with the champion system. I would be completely happy with no endgame vertical progression. PvP is endgame for me and there is unlimited progression available there in the form of new builds, and tactics.

But the people that demand their characters get more powerful are really losing in the long run. Because the controls have to go somewhere. ZOS is stealing so much power from class skills, racial passives, and gear to balance out the champion system. So every time you unlock more CP, and pump those CP into block cost reduction, know that ZOS is stealing power out of block cost enchants in order to pay for your warm fuzzy feelings of getting more CP and spending it.

You are not getting any more powerful. ZOS will always adjust difficulty of PvE to compensate. ZOS will always nerf the fun stuff (classes, skills, racials, gear) so that you can mindlessly spend homogeneous bland pointless power points. Vertical progression is a lie. Reject it.

Somber97866

Could they have made the cp points more about better survivability threw damage reduction but leave out improving damage output?

VaranisArano

Somber97866 wrote: »

So what's killing builds are ppl finding ways to put a character together that works extremely well. Going out and recking everyone one the block with it. Then when they tell everyone how its done those ppl that cannot beat them find out and go to forums and cry about it till zos nerfs it into oblivion causing ripples on both sides the pond. That's for pvp. In pve a single person or groups of ppl are going in and clearing vet hard mode dungeons ( sometimes outside of the door) in record breaking time, streaming it online and talking smack about how easy it is making the designers at ZOS feel played so they nerf everything into oblivion an causing ripples on both sides the pond. Does that sound about right or an I wrong on this?

That's pretty much it.

In PVP, ZOS wants counterplay to be possible and smacks down the meta.
In PVE, ZOS wants content to be challenging and smacks down the meta.

Artanisul

Aisle9 wrote: »

Moloch1514 wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Moloch1514 wrote: »

There was an ESO Live last year where the combat team dev admitted that balancing PvE and PvP separately would be "too hard" and take too much time. That is who we are paying folks.

That sounds like a reasonable argument from an informed source, so... ok?

I wish I could tell my boss that the dashboard project I'm working on is too hard and will take too much time. It won't seem reasonable to her I promise!

Yeah, that would be nice, but it's also completely unrelated to your previous statement. See there's a fallacy there: ZoS' employees are not your employees, you're a customer, you're paying for the product, that generates revenue, that makes the company thrive, but doesn't get to the combat system dev team. They have wages, so you're not paying them.

Unless you're Zenimax's CEO, which I'm pretty sure you're not, but, hey, feel free to prove me wrong.

I don't know why people cant see this...
They...work....for....us...
If they make crap, we leave. It really is that simple.

Taleof2Cities

Sometimes, the lack of ingenuity or research on the part of the player kills builds ... or, more specifically, build diversity.

That’s not the fault of ZOS or the streamers.

VaranisArano

Artanisul wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Moloch1514 wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Moloch1514 wrote: »

There was an ESO Live last year where the combat team dev admitted that balancing PvE and PvP separately would be "too hard" and take too much time. That is who we are paying folks.

That sounds like a reasonable argument from an informed source, so... ok?

I wish I could tell my boss that the dashboard project I'm working on is too hard and will take too much time. It won't seem reasonable to her I promise!

Yeah, that would be nice, but it's also completely unrelated to your previous statement. See there's a fallacy there: ZoS' employees are not your employees, you're a customer, you're paying for the product, that generates revenue, that makes the company thrive, but doesn't get to the combat system dev team. They have wages, so you're not paying them.

Unless you're Zenimax's CEO, which I'm pretty sure you're not, but, hey, feel free to prove me wrong.

I don't know why people cant see this...
They...work....for....us...
If they make crap, we leave. It really is that simple.

The developers don't actually work for the playerbase. They work for their companies who work for their shareholders. Shareholders and players aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, but I doubt there's all that much overlap.

They do make products for the playerbase. The player base can refuse to get those products, thus harming the company and shareholders which will then trickle back to the developers.

But one or two or fifty or a hundred players leaving is not going to have a big enough impact on the game to see a trickle-down to the developers. But its easy to see what does. PVE content getting cheesed gets the developers' attention. PVP lacking counterplay gets the developers' attention. BIS meta skills and gear creating a lack of diversity in play gets the developers' attention. Those are things that if left unchecked could cause many more players to leave the game, so ZOS pays attention to those.

Note: I'm excluding some technical issues like the lag in Cyrodiil because there are certain technical problems that ZOS seems unable, not unwilling, but unable to solve. I'm not sure that thinking ZOS is incompetent or too bound by legacy coding to fix certain issues is better or worse than thinking they're just ignoring the problem.