What's killing builds?

Somber97866

Is it ZOS not separating nerf's needed for pvp with pve?

Dapper Dinosaur

Yes. I don't know who at Zenimax thought it was fine to nerf everyone because sustain was becoming a problem in PVP, but I hope they got fired. I also hope whoever could have prevented that mass nerfing but did nothing also got fired.

Chufu

Could you be a bit more concrete, please?

VizigothAlaric

Somber97866 wrote: »

Is it ZOS not separating nerf's needed for pvp with pve?

Pretty much killed most of the end game after they nerfed sustain cuz pvp.

They forced everyone to use heavy attack builds and now look at the leaderboards.

Now they are *** with off-balance lets see whos gonna have fun after that in game

Kram8ion

" nerfs needed for pvp " sounds off but yes it's part of the problem so is the funnel into meta and a little sprinkling of player obsession with it

Slick_007

Somber97866 wrote: »

Is it ZOS not separating nerf's needed for pvp with pve?

your threads asking them to be nerfed

altemriel

Somber97866 wrote: »

Is it ZOS not separating nerf's needed for pvp with pve?

yes!!

Verbal_Earthworm

buildkillers?

Narvuntien

Fundamental changes to the game without also changing all the skills, passives and classes that relied on those mechanics. That is what kills builds.

PVP and PVE are different. One needs DPS and One needs Burst.

PVE tanking about supporting the group, holding aggro, when to take and when to avoid damage and knowing when to interrupt
PVP tanking. CC and Pressure, surviving through burst (often from multiple players) then healing.
PVE healing. Support, resources and of course heals off all kinds.
PVP healing. Tanky, crit resist and burst healing.

They are already very different.

All you really have to do is change a bunch of the morphs so that one is for PVP and one is for PVE instead of one that is great all the time and one that is a mistake to take.

TheInfernalRage

Whenever someone places the "meta" on the altar and you can hear the chanting of "BiS". That's how builds get killed.

Sav72

Addons are........

DRAGON_KILLER_HUNTER

becaause of secret builds

Aisle9

Somber97866 wrote: »

Is it ZOS not separating nerf's needed for pvp with pve?

Generic unsubstantiated statement is generic.

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

Yes. I don't know who at Zenimax thought it was fine to nerf everyone because sustain was becoming a problem in PVP, but I hope they got fired. I also hope whoever could have prevented that mass nerfing but did nothing also got fired.

Yes, it was because of PvP, definitely not because of endgame trial raids doing 70k dps making the content trivial. Ofc it was PvP, keep telling yourself that before you go to sleep.

Sav72 wrote: »

Addons are........

Quick, put this on, they won't be able to send commands this way!


*edit*

I'd love to have a definite separation on how skills and mechanics works between PvP and PvE. This way you would have to find some other scapegoat...

huschdeguddzje

So zos doesn't balance pve and pvp separately? That's just plain ridiculous, trying to bring those two in line just lessens the fun you can have in both.

Dapper Dinosaur

Yes, it was because of PvP, definitely not because of endgame trial raids doing 70k dps making the content trivial. Ofc it was PvP, keep telling yourself that before you go to sleep.

I'm pretty sure when they did the mass nerfing, they justified it by talking about resources in PVP, which should lead any logical person to follow the logic that PVP is the reason they nerfed resource sustain in a way that made gameplay more boring that LITERALLY everyone was against.

VaranisArano

Anyone who thinks that the Morrowind sustain changes were entirely because of PVP forgets about the massive PVE power creep going on at the same time. High-end PVE groups were blasting through the hardest trials ZOS could design and calling them easy-peasy, lemon squeezy, forcing ZOS to choose between designing new content for high-end players that normal players would never be able to touch or to do a hard reset on the ability of players to do high amounts of damage with infinite sustain.

As a result, ZOS nerfed everyone. Because PVP tanks with damage + sustain are annoying. Trials players ripping through your hardest content at a level of DPS average players can't touch is a development issue that will change the course of the game's content development if you don't fix it.

VaranisArano

Somber97866 wrote: »

Is it ZOS not separating nerf's needed for pvp with pve?

They actually do a reasonably good job. Nothing's perfect.

There are main two types of nerfs. 1. The nerfs that fix something that was a problem. 2. The nerfs that destroy something that was "Best In Slot" or meta because ZOS very much likes to shake up the meta.

Examples of #1
Viper Set - nerfed from burst damage to a DOT = no change in PVE, rarely used now in PVP because there's no advantage to its burst anymore
Plague Doctor + Green Pact + Igneous Shield on high health tanks - when high health tanks start carrying groups through the hardest PVE content, ZOS fixed this one quick
Proc Set Criticals - a problem in PVP (Specifically Battlegrounds, ZOS' newest baby at the time and a way to lower group DPS in PVE (remember, lower group DPS means ZOS can design easier content)

Examples of #2
Armor Skills require 5 pieces to run - Killed Tava's Blessing + Shuffle as the BIS tank ulti-gen set
Crystal Frags - lost its stun, because it was BIS and ZOS wants people to use the other morph, pretty please!

There's plenty more examples of ZOS fixing problems and ZOS shaking up the meta. Heavy armor nerfs are somewhere in between - ZOS doesn't like PVE permablocking any more than they do in PVP. The Update 17 changes to Off Balance are a clear example of ZOS shaking up the meta for PVE.

Something else to keep in mind is that ZOS protects their latest content. Battlegrounds is supposed to be a moneymaker so that's why we saw a lot of Battleground nerfs when it came out. When your playerbase complains "I don't wanna play the new content because I'm getting killed by proc sets!" good Devs and panicked PR specialists listen. We also see a lot of PVE tweaking. Its not a coincidence that Tava's Blessing and heavy armor got nerfed right at the drop of a new trial. When high health tanks started carrying groups with high health shields after Morrowind, that got nerfed fast.

You can predict incoming nerfs pretty easily. What's the unquestioned BIS gear or skills? Expect ZOS to take a shot at it. Is someone in PVP or PVE overperforming? Expect some nerfs incoming. Note that this is especially true of PVE. PVP might sell copies of Morrowind for Battlegrounds, but PVE drives the majority of the game's sellable content. If PVE damage from high-end groups is too far above the average player's, that creates a huge problem for ZOS. From the developers perspective, its far better that the high end players get nerfed that that ZOS develop content average players can't play.

Uviryth

Animation canceling is killing builds. Because it promotes longterm-effects like Endless Hail.

Aisle9

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

Yes, it was because of PvP, definitely not because of endgame trial raids doing 70k dps making the content trivial. Ofc it was PvP, keep telling yourself that before you go to sleep.

I'm pretty sure when they did the mass nerfing, they justified it by talking about resources in PVP, which should lead any logical person to follow the logic that PVP is the reason they nerfed resource sustain in a way that made gameplay more boring that LITERALLY everyone was against.

Dude

"Morrowind removes cost reduction from CP" (the morrowind resource nerf).
"Morrowind introduces new PvP with Battlegrounds (NO-CP)"

Come on... put your tinfoil hat back on.

Aisle9

Uviryth wrote: »

Animation canceling is killing builds. Because it promotes longterm-effects like Endless Hail.

Vahrokh

VaranisArano wrote: »

Crystal Frags - lost its stun, because it was BIS and ZOS wants people to use the other morph, pretty please!

They can completely remove Crystal frags from the game and STILL nobody with a brain would ever slot the other morph. When something is just garbage, then garbage it stays.

VaranisArano

Uviryth wrote: »

Animation canceling is killing builds. Because it promotes longterm-effects like Endless Hail.

Can't animation cancel to save my life. Uses Endless Hail.

Am I missing something here?

Aisle9

VaranisArano wrote: »

Uviryth wrote: »

Animation canceling is killing builds. Because it promotes longterm-effects like Endless Hail.

Can't animation cancel to save my life. Uses Endless Hail.

Am I missing something here?

Wait, I think it was sarcasm.

When you think about it, it's kinda funny...

Coatmagic

Somber97866 wrote: »

Is it ZOS not separating nerf's needed for pvp with pve?

This, so much this. Someone at ZoS refuses to believe it's NECESSARY when every other game does it.
Whatever, though, not my circus xD

tinythinker

I initially read this as, "What's killing buildings?", and I was very interested to see what the OP was going on about (costs of houses, lack of architectural soundness or diversity in housing, some ruined npc houses in some part of map, etc.).

kylewwefan

I don’t get it. Some players are hitting higher than they ever have. You can make perfect trait sets with a quickness like never before.

SGT_Wolfe101st

You can say meta and BiS are the issue but players want to be successful in whatever activity they are doing. I'm not saying that there aren't awesome builds out there that are outside the meta but to run the activity with efficiency and a high probability of success people are going to migrate to what is proven. Add to that if you are running your own build some groups will simply not invite you to the raid or group because data has shown you need x of build a, y of build b to accomplish this with score/outcome x. Meta is a symptom of the issue, nerfs and the attempt to balance PVP with PVE with PVP is the disease.

klowdy1

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

Yes. I don't know who at Zenimax thought it was fine to nerf everyone because sustain was becoming a problem in PVP, but I hope they got fired. I also hope whoever could have prevented that mass nerfing but did nothing also got fired.

I would say since the changes weren't reverted, neither was their employment.

kypranb14_ESO

The only people killing builds are the people with builds who won't adapt.

I didn't have to heavy attack pre-morrowind, I don't have to heavy attack now. I still manage to get good DPS parses, and I'm a healer-DPS hybrid.

SGT_Wolfe101st

VaranisArano wrote: »

Somber97866 wrote: »

Is it ZOS not separating nerf's needed for pvp with pve?

They actually do a reasonably good job. Nothing's perfect.

There are main two types of nerfs. 1. The nerfs that fix something that was a problem. 2. The nerfs that destroy something that was "Best In Slot" or meta because ZOS very much likes to shake up the meta.

Examples of #1
Viper Set - nerfed from burst damage to a DOT = no change in PVE, rarely used now in PVP because there's no advantage to its burst anymore
Plague Doctor + Green Pact + Igneous Shield on high health tanks - when high health tanks start carrying groups through the hardest PVE content, ZOS fixed this one quick
Proc Set Criticals - a problem in PVP (Specifically Battlegrounds, ZOS' newest baby at the time and a way to lower group DPS in PVE (remember, lower group DPS means ZOS can design easier content)

Examples of #2
Armor Skills require 5 pieces to run - Killed Tava's Blessing + Shuffle as the BIS tank ulti-gen set
Crystal Frags - lost its stun, because it was BIS and ZOS wants people to use the other morph, pretty please!

There's plenty more examples of ZOS fixing problems and ZOS shaking up the meta. Heavy armor nerfs are somewhere in between - ZOS doesn't like PVE permablocking any more than they do in PVP. The Update 17 changes to Off Balance are a clear example of ZOS shaking up the meta for PVE.

Something else to keep in mind is that ZOS protects their latest content. Battlegrounds is supposed to be a moneymaker so that's why we saw a lot of Battleground nerfs when it came out. When your playerbase complains "I don't wanna play the new content because I'm getting killed by proc sets!" good Devs and panicked PR specialists listen. We also see a lot of PVE tweaking. Its not a coincidence that Tava's Blessing and heavy armor got nerfed right at the drop of a new trial. When high health tanks started carrying groups with high health shields after Morrowind, that got nerfed fast.

You can predict incoming nerfs pretty easily. What's the unquestioned BIS gear or skills? Expect ZOS to take a shot at it. Is someone in PVP or PVE overperforming? Expect some nerfs incoming. Note that this is especially true of PVE. PVP might sell copies of Morrowind for Battlegrounds, but PVE drives the majority of the game's sellable content. If PVE damage from high-end groups is too far above the average player's, that creates a huge problem for ZOS. From the developers perspective, its far better that the high end players get nerfed that that ZOS develop content average players can't play.

I don't disagree with what you have stated, it is very sensical, with that said, there comes a point to "what is the point?" We get strong, we effectively create builds that allow the content to be accomplished, perhaps faster and easier than Zos intended so they basically handicap us so the content is hard again. We deal, formulate, adapt, and wash rinse repeat. Its more the cycle than anything.

Aisle9

SGT_Wolfe101st wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Somber97866 wrote: »

Is it ZOS not separating nerf's needed for pvp with pve?

They actually do a reasonably good job. Nothing's perfect.

There are main two types of nerfs. 1. The nerfs that fix something that was a problem. 2. The nerfs that destroy something that was "Best In Slot" or meta because ZOS very much likes to shake up the meta.

Examples of #1
Viper Set - nerfed from burst damage to a DOT = no change in PVE, rarely used now in PVP because there's no advantage to its burst anymore
Plague Doctor + Green Pact + Igneous Shield on high health tanks - when high health tanks start carrying groups through the hardest PVE content, ZOS fixed this one quick
Proc Set Criticals - a problem in PVP (Specifically Battlegrounds, ZOS' newest baby at the time and a way to lower group DPS in PVE (remember, lower group DPS means ZOS can design easier content)

Examples of #2
Armor Skills require 5 pieces to run - Killed Tava's Blessing + Shuffle as the BIS tank ulti-gen set
Crystal Frags - lost its stun, because it was BIS and ZOS wants people to use the other morph, pretty please!

There's plenty more examples of ZOS fixing problems and ZOS shaking up the meta. Heavy armor nerfs are somewhere in between - ZOS doesn't like PVE permablocking any more than they do in PVP. The Update 17 changes to Off Balance are a clear example of ZOS shaking up the meta for PVE.

Something else to keep in mind is that ZOS protects their latest content. Battlegrounds is supposed to be a moneymaker so that's why we saw a lot of Battleground nerfs when it came out. When your playerbase complains "I don't wanna play the new content because I'm getting killed by proc sets!" good Devs and panicked PR specialists listen. We also see a lot of PVE tweaking. Its not a coincidence that Tava's Blessing and heavy armor got nerfed right at the drop of a new trial. When high health tanks started carrying groups with high health shields after Morrowind, that got nerfed fast.

You can predict incoming nerfs pretty easily. What's the unquestioned BIS gear or skills? Expect ZOS to take a shot at it. Is someone in PVP or PVE overperforming? Expect some nerfs incoming. Note that this is especially true of PVE. PVP might sell copies of Morrowind for Battlegrounds, but PVE drives the majority of the game's sellable content. If PVE damage from high-end groups is too far above the average player's, that creates a huge problem for ZOS. From the developers perspective, its far better that the high end players get nerfed that that ZOS develop content average players can't play.

I don't disagree with what you have stated, it is very sensical, with that said, there comes a point to "what is the point?" We get strong, we effectively create builds that allow the content to be accomplished, perhaps faster and easier than Zos intended so they basically handicap us so the content is hard again. We deal, formulate, adapt, and wash rinse repeat. Its more the cycle than anything.

Yes