After being out of the game for a year, why is spying so bad in pvp

Calrid

I understand it is now the equivalent of putting your hand down the queen mum's knickers, but before I left it was de rigeuer or right on if you'll forgive my French why is now considered evil, and in what way does using that weapon of war that every nation on Earth uses bad. Now I am not debating if it is bad or good, it clearly was bad but no one has been able to tell me why, except to say it was ruining the game? In history spying won wars, you know cracking the engima code and so on, why is it bad in this game?

Eocosa

This is simply my take on it, and I accept that frankly it is done and there is very few ways to stop it.

I believe a big part of the issue is people view pvp as a competition, that's where a lot of the joy comes from is "winning". Of course you can spy, but I think many see that as "unsportsmanlike". It would be like joining a rival team and throwing the game on purpose, sure you CAN do it, but it will not win you any friends. Some on the team may feel it even cheapens their victory.

When you relate it to true real world war, it is a bit different because frankly that is life and death. If you can spy and save some of your own peoples lives that's great. However, I think you are also REALLY underestimating how hated spies are in real life when they're caught as well!

Relating back to the game though, I think many would rather you just log on the side you want to fight for and "play the 'game' (wpvp)".

I am by no means telling you what to do or how to play, just that's where a lot of people are upset about it is that it is not quite cheating as underhanded (such as nailing a star hitter with pitch to only get them a walk in baseball).

Others may just be upset if they're losing because of it as well.

starkerealm

Eocosa wrote: »

However, I think you are also REALLY underestimating how hated spies are in real life when they're caught as well!

This.

Really, just, you know, this.

DeadlyRecluse

It's a game. Spying should be stealthy scouting of enemy movements.

Camping in a teamspeak/discord or relaying zone chat/siege counts via chat isn't "cracking the enigma machine," it's just being a lazy person whose friends are bad at PvP.

Iccotak

its one thing to follow the enemy from a distance and relay a report, I have done that and I have had other players do that.

BUT actually switching sides in order to spy on the enemy is a *** move.
On top of that, ESO has a problem of PvP players just switching to whatever side is winning rather than sticking with their faction through thick and thin.

Ruckly

I don't see how spying is an issue if you screen your attack other than it taking up a faction slot if the map is pop capped. Maybe a 20 man blitz to some far off keep given away by a spy undermines the element of surprise for deep attacks. But attacks on connected keeps can be screened by perma-stealthers that set up siege at two different keeps and the main body hits one or the other.

Beardimus

The switching sides thing is an issue. I vote for account lock per campaign but I know many are vocal against that for whatever reason.

But switching sides, and scroll moving etc is frustrating. But I guess spies are annoying! The prob is nothing can be done in game.

Kuramas9tails

Iccotak wrote: »

On top of that, ESO has a problem of PvP players just switching to whatever side is winning rather than sticking with their faction through thick and thin.

This is why I say there should be a cool down between alliance swapping for PVP.

Samadhi

Calrid wrote: »

...In history spying won wars, you know cracking the engima code and so on, why is it bad in this game?

Spying is so important to war that Sun Tzu has an entire chapter of the Art of War dedicated to it:

A major military operation is a severe drain on the nation, and may be kept up for years in the struggle for one day's victory. So to fail to know the conditions of opponents because of reluctance to give rewards for intelligence is extremely inhumane, uncharacteristic of a true military leader, uncharacteristic of an assistant of government, uncharacteristic of a victorious chief. So what enables an intelligent government and a wise military leadership to overcome others and achieve extraordinary accomplishments is foreknowledge.

Foreknowledge cannot be gotten from ghosts and spirits, cannot be had by analogy, cannot be found out by calculation. It must be obtained from people, people who know the conditions of the enemy.

There are five kinds of spy: The local spy, the inside spy, the reverse spy, the dead spy, and the living spy. When the five kinds of spies are all active, no one knows their routes--this is called organizational genius, and is valuable to the leadership.
Local spies are hired from among the people of a locality. Inside spies are hired from among enemy officials. Reverse spies are hired from among enemy spies. Dead spies transmit false intelligence to enemy spies. Living spies come back to report.

Therefore no one in the armed forces is treated as familiarly as are spies, no one is given rewards as rich as those given to spies, and no matter is more secret than espionage

One cannot use spies without sagacity and knowledge, one cannot use spies without humanity and justice, one cannot get the truth from spies without subtlety. This is a very delicate matter indeed. Spies are useful everywhere.

If an item of intelligence is heard before a spy reports it, then both the spy and the one who told about it die.

Whenever you want to attack an army, besiege a city, or kill a person, first you must know the identities of their defending generals, their associates, their visitors, their gatekeepers, and their chamberlains, so have your spies find out.

You must seek out enemy agents who have come to spy on you, bribe them and induce them to stay with you, so you can use them as reverse spies. By intelligence thus obtained, you can find local spies and inside spies to employ. By intelligence thus obtained, you can cause the misinformation of dead spies to be conveyed to the enemy. By intelligence thus obtained, you can get living spies to work as planned.

It is essential for a leader to know about the five kinds of espionage, and this knowledge depends on reverse spies, so reverse spies must be treated well.

So only a brilliant ruler or a wise general who can use the highly intelligent for espionage is sure of great success. This is essential for military operations, and the armies depend on this in their actions.

(excerpted from Art of War translation by Thomas Cleary)

in real war, spies are represented as integral to an expedient war with minimal bloodshed
as Sun Tzu was all about winning war with minimal loss to human life and damage to human society
the value of spies is higher than that of soldiers

think this sentiment of value has come down through the years to taint people's perception of spies in a form of jealousy

to step back over to the game
spies are distasteful because they act 'outside' the confines of the game, but impact it severely
people who want to just get in and fight and have fun don't want to worry about the meta structure spying involves

so spying is an outside factor that influences actual gameplay
spying is fun for some -- but those who it is fun for impede the enjoyability of the actual combat in game for the rest of us

If the struggle in Cyrodiil actually held implications for the broader server, spies may have a 'place" where they are more accepted
but since Cyrodiil is just a place most of us go to fight and screw around, the impact of spies is a negative one; it changes the balance of fights in a way that is not meaningful to the individual players engaged in them

Hurtfan

Spies schmies...can still win the campaign even with this spy crap going on.

There's nothing that can be done that I know of so play on....

I did however see a spy yesterday foil a siege, at least that's what was being said in zone chat...

Nemeliom

I'm sure that spies are active when some huge group is aiming for emperor.
Otherwise it's useless.

Magdalina

I'm still confused as for why/for what people would even spy in PvP. If you just monitor zonechat...like what are you expecting to see there? "guys the gate keeps have fallen PROTECT THE SCROLL"? You don't need zchat to predict that. "Guys ARRIUS IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN BRINDLE"? Fairly predictable as well(and hopeless. Brindle for life!). Honestly if nothing else is happening the EP and DC zergs can probably be found around Chalman, with the exception of the EP farming Alessia bridge and the DC poking AD at around...where is it AD and DC collide? Either way, it's same old all the time, with occasional exception of small(ish) man groups going in the back and sneakily capturing stuff there - but those don't even call it out in zchat usually, they just go and do it.

ArchMikem

It's not even hidden. It's blatant cross faction collusion.

A very prominent DC player on the Xbox NA server has an EP Alt and was on it last night. Seriously, dude's like 4th on the Emperor leaderboard for DC. But for some reason he was in the EP zone chat. When the DC came and took Kingscrest I was left alone inside and hidden on the top floor of the inner keep, waiting for help. I was in the clear. Until I said in zone chat that I was still inside Kings, "help meh".

IMMEDIATELY after I said that in Zone chat, these Blues start searching the keep, find me, burst me down, and teabag.

And that's just a tiny example of a much larger problem. Blues and Yellows actively working together to gang up on the Pact. Ignoring each other's territory and focusing all their attention on the Pact's home keeps. They didn't even bother with taking all the Emperor keeps. Once the Blues AND the Yellows converged on Blue Road and one of them took it, the both of them headed straight for Arrius. It's not just plain spying anymore, it's a full blown conspiracy.

VaranisArano

So spying in PVP isn't technically against the rules. However...

Its something that's only been allowed since campaigns aren't faction locked. It wasn't originally intended to be a part of the game but its possible now. So if original intent matters to you, don't spy on other factions. If original intent doesn't, carry on.

Camping in TS/Discord or joining an enemy guild as a spy may not be against the rules of ESO, but spying is most likely against the rules of that guild. Deliberately lying to people to spy on them may make you a paragon of loyalty to your true faction but it also makes you a jerk who's lying to the people you are spying on. If you don't want faction loyalty to lead you to jerkish behavior to a bunch of other people over a video game, don't spy on a guild or PUG group you joined up with. If that doesn't bother you, carry on.

Personally, I play one faction loyally. Spies are a part of war that I deal with. My guild has had a couple of spies get caught having joined and then reporting our movements. They were obvious enough to get caught pretty quickly. That annoyed me, because one of the reasons I'm in the PVP guild I'm in is because we don't do cross-faction PVP or spying and we are all pretty friendly. I'm friends with most of the people who I raid with and become friends with the new people who join the guild. So spies coming in and pretending to be trustworthy new members actually has a bad effect that goes far beyond the momentary in-game advantage they have of knowing our movements and plans. No doubt knowing that brings some pleasure to people who like to do that sort of spying, but I regard it as a real jerk move.

danno8

Spies IRL can be found out and punished or killed. It is a high risk high reward activity. Its a real strategy, it's James Bond, it's cool.

Spying in this game has basically no risk at all, and there is nothing you can do about it even if you know who the spy is. It's lame.

KingYogi415

People who play multiple colors get called spy’s.

I doubt anyone is actually spying...

Conduit0

The problem with people swapping factions in order to spy is that there is no counterplay to it. This also the problem with trying to justify spying based on its importance in real life, a real life spy risks life and limb to get his/her allies the information, but faction swapping comes with zero risk, you can't kill or oust a player suspected of spying for another faction. Any method of "play" that has no effective means of counter will be seen with disdain by most people, because this isn't a war, its a game and games should always be fair.

Silver_Strider

KingYogi415 wrote: »

People who play multiple colors get called spy’s.

I doubt anyone is actually spying...

That sounds like something a spy would say.

badmojo

In real life you would be shot if discovered.

If ZOS wants to implement a system where factions can perma ban accounts of spies, I am sure people would be less annoyed by it.

Morgul667

If you need spies it means you cant win fair and square. Do you really expect people to congratulate on playing games in a non fair way ?

D0PAMINE

of course there are spies, its a massive AP farm against players who just want to enjoy pvp.

Vermintide

Because it's meta-gaming, not actual gaming. The mechanics of stealth and espionage are there in character, it would be more FUN if people did it that way.

Remember what that is guys? Fun?

Magdalina wrote: »

I'm still confused as for why/for what people would even spy in PvP. If you just monitor zonechat...like what are you expecting to see there? "guys the gate keeps have fallen PROTECT THE SCROLL"? You don't need zchat to predict that. "Guys ARRIUS IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN BRINDLE"? Fairly predictable as well(and hopeless. Brindle for life!). Honestly if nothing else is happening the EP and DC zergs can probably be found around Chalman, with the exception of the EP farming Alessia bridge and the DC poking AD at around...where is it AD and DC collide? Either way, it's same old all the time, with occasional exception of small(ish) man groups going in the back and sneakily capturing stuff there - but those don't even call it out in zchat usually, they just go and do it.

This is a depressing post because it really boils down how dull Cyrodiil is compared to the potential it has.

Oh noes, there goes another banana squad doing the helter skelter thing around our resource towers. 3...2...1... Here comes the destro ulti!

Enemy factions may as well be *** PVE bosses with this level of predictability. The tactics are so stale now that I just don't engage the majority of opponents. You can't kite someone who doesn't give chase.

Toast_STS

Is this just a PC issue? I haven't noticed any "spying" or any complaining about spying on xbox.

Then again it's not hard to read the map and predict enemy movements. Or some rando might put a warning in zone chat if a keep is about to be flagged.

How do you even know it's spying?

Ciovala

I routinely see people take a scroll and run it to a different faction. They get paid to do this.

kargen27

The ones I really hate are the ones that get in the middle of a group that is in stealth and then start casting things so their friends in the other faction know where the group is hiding.

even worse I suppose is the ones that just tell the enemy where the group is hidden because then you have no idea they did it until all of a sudden you see the enemy heading straight at ya.

AJ_1988

Never used to be an issue much until they decided to allow more than 1 toon on dif factions into the same campaign. I’ve always felt you should be locked to one faction for pvp especially sine one tamerial opened everything up. But it is what it is.

Best way to get revenge is to switch yourself and take up their siege spots with bulk oil on ground during defence. It’s cheap but it’s. Good for the lols. I’m too lazy to have more than one toon so I’ll never do it as much as I want to lol.

Silver_Strider

You know what I would love?
A system that would allow it so that players that had X number of people oust someone as a spy, they are instantly flagged across the board as a spy on that specific character for 24 hours.

What that means is that they are flagged to be killed by EVERYONE. NPCs would attack them, no fast travel to keeps, nothing. Even if you respawn at base, other players at the base would be allowed to attack and kill you.

Oh yes, there would be abuse. There are plenty of people that have built up a hatedom in the PvP community that would instantly be ousted just out of spite, of which, I'm all for since most are jerks that deserve it anyways.

There will be tears.
There will be grief.
There will be anger.

But damn if people wouldn't be less inclined to spy if it was implemented.

Iccotak

Conduit0 wrote: »

The problem with people swapping factions in order to spy is that there is no counterplay to it. This also the problem with trying to justify spying based on its importance in real life, a real life spy risks life and limb to get his/her allies the information, but faction swapping comes with zero risk, you can't kill or oust a player suspected of spying for another faction. Any method of "play" that has no effective means of counter will be seen with disdain by most people, because this isn't a war, its a game and games should always be fair.

exactly there is no in-game mechanic for spying that comes with risk

DoctorESO

.

Ackwalan

The problem with spy's in the game, is that they can't be countered. The spy can stand out in the open and declare they are spying, and no one can stop them. It's not good or bad tactic, it is a cheesy tactic.

gepe87

Spying what? childish zone chat? That is hilarious. Real strategies are in group and guild chats.