ZOS, Please Rethink Your Decision to Penalize Nightblade Sneak Speed

QuebraRegra

Undefwun wrote: »

With the amount of tears about our "magical fairy all defeating I WIN with 1 button' cloak... this won't happen...

If cloak worked half as well as people seem to think it would actually be OP...

pretty much this... AT this point it's just a big joke when people cry about OP cloak at this point... truly L2P. Cloak has been broke for about ever.

QuebraRegra

shut up and stack the meta kid, nobody's interested in an build diversity, or utility builds in this game

seriously, some utility builds not based on the same stack damage crap would be fresh.

casparian

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

GimpyPorcupine wrote: »

Stamblades don't need any buffs.

Is it really that much of a buff to Stamblades if we allowed them to drop vampirism? It's more aesthetic than anything.

Do you play PVP?

Yes.

Perhaps you're hinting at vampires having increased fire damage received? Stamblades are pretty squishy to begin with.

Not taking 20% extra dmg from the most common stamina ult in the game is a big buff.

idk

The magicka counterpart has access to two class skills that will increase speed in stealth. One passively when slotted ans the other actively gives major momentum without breaking stealth.

Granted, it's a choice to use the or not but they're there.

Edit: to the person who seemed to claim anyone who disagreed with OP doesn't play a NB. Had my first NB within months after the game launched on PC and second one before the game was a year old.

GrumpyDuckling

casparian wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

GimpyPorcupine wrote: »

Stamblades don't need any buffs.

Is it really that much of a buff to Stamblades if we allowed them to drop vampirism? It's more aesthetic than anything.

Do you play PVP?

Yes.

Perhaps you're hinting at vampires having increased fire damage received? Stamblades are pretty squishy to begin with.

Not taking 20% extra dmg from the most common stamina ult in the game is a big buff.

We could easily change the narrative and say that currently Nightblades have to deal with this a big defensive nerf of taking 20% extra damage from the most common stamina ult in the game because their class depends so heavily on Vampire...

It appears that your argument is better suited for your opposition.

casparian

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

GimpyPorcupine wrote: »

Stamblades don't need any buffs.

Is it really that much of a buff to Stamblades if we allowed them to drop vampirism? It's more aesthetic than anything.

Do you play PVP?

Yes.

Perhaps you're hinting at vampires having increased fire damage received? Stamblades are pretty squishy to begin with.

Not taking 20% extra dmg from the most common stamina ult in the game is a big buff.

We could easily change the narrative and say that currently Nightblades have to deal with this a big defensive nerf of taking 20% extra damage from the most common stamina ult in the game because their class depends so heavily on Vampire...

It appears that your argument is better suited for your opposition.

Yes, exactly -- NBs do have to deal with this defensive drawback. As they should. The class is so exceptionally powerful offensively and defensively that they need to have the defensive drawbacks they currently do for the sake of balance.

I mean, I'm a solo magplar, so I know what it's like to feel forced into vampirism. But it's justified in the case of stamblades.

GrumpyDuckling

casparian wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

GimpyPorcupine wrote: »

Stamblades don't need any buffs.

Is it really that much of a buff to Stamblades if we allowed them to drop vampirism? It's more aesthetic than anything.

Do you play PVP?

Yes.

Perhaps you're hinting at vampires having increased fire damage received? Stamblades are pretty squishy to begin with.

Not taking 20% extra dmg from the most common stamina ult in the game is a big buff.

We could easily change the narrative and say that currently Nightblades have to deal with this a big defensive nerf of taking 20% extra damage from the most common stamina ult in the game because their class depends so heavily on Vampire...

It appears that your argument is better suited for your opposition.

Yes, exactly -- NBs do have to deal with this defensive drawback. As they should. The class is so exceptionally powerful offensively and defensively that they need to have the defensive drawbacks they currently do for the sake of balance.

I mean, I'm a solo magplar, so I know what it's like to feel forced into vampirism. But it's justified in the case of stamblades.

I'm not sure if you're serious when you say that stamblades have exceptional defense.

Sarjako

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

even with vampire passive it is still far too slow.

zenimax, please increase sneak speeds.
please also make it so we cant be pulled out of stealth.
if we go into stealth we should be able to stay in stealth.

That's taking it a bit too far IMHO.

Sarjako

Magblade: Has enough magicka to stay cloaked indefinitely... has speed buffs even without vampire in stealth.. and light armor defintely more tanky. I have one. THey're awesome. THey're fun. Bwahahaha

My Stamblade: Is vaporized for being almost as fast as my magblade in stealth.

Either way whatev. If that's the way devs want it? I'll play by the rules. But I'll say this... my 101 skillpoint magblade outperforms my 170 skillpoint stamblade straight out the gate in Cyrodiil. My first time out I was expecting to get my butt handed to me with a side of taters... but nope. My baby magblade wipes the floor with tenured and seasoned stamblades allllll the time. It's kinda not fair. Just an observation.

kaithuzar

@Sarjako i think your definition of "seasoned/tenured stamblades" and mine are very different.

A new magblade wouldn't be wiping the floor with any of the guys I know.

Mickydanz

Any good feedback about sneak speed improvements for nightblade?

MercTheMage

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

even with vampire passive it is still far too slow.

zenimax, please increase sneak speeds.
please also make it so we cant be pulled out of stealth.
if we go into stealth we should be able to stay in stealth.

How much meth, paint thinner and Elmer's glue are you on buddy??

Sarjako

kaithuzar wrote: »

@Sarjako i think your definition of "seasoned/tenured stamblades" and mine are very different.

A new magblade wouldn't be wiping the floor with any of the guys I know.

Yes.. you're right that's taking it a bit far. I suppose I was being over-dramatic lolol

GrumpyDuckling

Mickydanz wrote: »

Any good feedback about sneak speed improvements for nightblade?

I haven't seen anything in PTS notes.

aeowulf

Joosef_Kivikilpi wrote: »

This ^ ---> I'm SO tired of Vampires always being picked for OP reasons AND they get sneak speed buffs.

Please let normal humans have a decent chance at sneaking.

Ideas:

1. Make Night Silence 5 piece give another bonus like weapon damage (like the reduce detection radius 5 piece set or Shadow's Raiment).
2. Give it in a passive for Thieves Guild OR Dark Brotherhood for max rank.
3. OR Legerdemain so people don't complain it's "Pay to Win" (because Shadow Mount 50% NPC detection radius on mount isn't pay to win when you can escape pvp characters in Imperial City because you're on your horse going through NPCs and they aggro on your enemy instead of you hahaha /s)

Really like number 2 - fits the theme of either DLC very well. Could even do +50% for each DLC

Would like to add that whilst both DLC's are easier with NB, I did a lot of it in medium without morphing surprise attack or using invis - i.e. skills available to all.

Raudgrani

Stamblade here, I say no. There's really no need at all for this. People complain too much about them as it is too, I don't want NB's to get focused for some huge nerf on several levels.

Elijah_Crow

I would love to see the Surprise Attack morph to also reduce the movement speed penalty. This allows both magicka and stamina based Nightblades a way to reduce the penalty with the same skill.

For non Nightblades, there's Nights Silence or Vampire for stamina builds and another set (I forget the name as I mainly play stamina) or Vampire. That seems much more balanced.

Datthaw

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

GimpyPorcupine wrote: »

Stamblades don't need any buffs.

Is it really that much of a buff to Stamblades if we allowed them to drop vampirism? It's more aesthetic than anything.

Do you play PVP?

Yes.

Perhaps you're hinting at vampires having increased fire damage received? Stamblades are pretty squishy to begin with.

They are really strong in cyro now, shouldn't make it easier for them than it already is. They already run a million miles per hour. You ever try to catch a medium armor stamblade who just popped a speed pot and shuffles off your ccs? They need some kinda of penalty for mobility like that.

GrumpyDuckling

Datthaw wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

GimpyPorcupine wrote: »

Stamblades don't need any buffs.

Is it really that much of a buff to Stamblades if we allowed them to drop vampirism? It's more aesthetic than anything.

Do you play PVP?

Yes.

Perhaps you're hinting at vampires having increased fire damage received? Stamblades are pretty squishy to begin with.

They are really strong in cyro now, shouldn't make it easier for them than it already is. They already run a million miles per hour. You ever try to catch a medium armor stamblade who just popped a speed pot and shuffles off your ccs? They need some kinda of penalty for mobility like that.

The speed cap nerfed high mobility builds.

Kwik1

Colecovision wrote: »

I think a Khajiit NB in particular should have no stealth penalty. Or all Khajiit. It's a cat, that's what they do.

Have you ever watched a cat when it is being sneaky? It moves very slowly and precisely.

The WHOLE point of sneaking is to move SLOW so you remain undetected.

I disagree with the OP completely. Vamps should be the only ones that can move fast while sneaking since that is an ability they have had throughout the history of vampires, no one else should. Just being a NB does not mean you are a stealth class as a lot of your abilities have nothing to do with stealth.

GrumpyDuckling

Kwik1 wrote: »

Colecovision wrote: »

I think a Khajiit NB in particular should have no stealth penalty. Or all Khajiit. It's a cat, that's what they do.

Have you ever watched a cat when it is being sneaky? It moves very slowly and precisely.

The WHOLE point of sneaking is to move SLOW so you remain undetected.

I disagree with the OP completely. Vamps should be the only ones that can move fast while sneaking since that is an ability they have had throughout the history of vampires, no one else should. Just being a NB does not mean you are a stealth class as a lot of your abilities have nothing to do with stealth.

You can disagree all you want, but that doesn't make you right. Read the in-game description of a Nightblade during character creation. The description specifically mentions that the class relies on "stealth, blades, and speed."

Kwik1

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Kwik1 wrote: »

Colecovision wrote: »

I think a Khajiit NB in particular should have no stealth penalty. Or all Khajiit. It's a cat, that's what they do.

Have you ever watched a cat when it is being sneaky? It moves very slowly and precisely.

The WHOLE point of sneaking is to move SLOW so you remain undetected.

I disagree with the OP completely. Vamps should be the only ones that can move fast while sneaking since that is an ability they have had throughout the history of vampires, no one else should. Just being a NB does not mean you are a stealth class as a lot of your abilities have nothing to do with stealth.

You can disagree all you want, but that doesn't make you right. Read the in-game description of a Nightblade during character creation. The description specifically mentions that the class relies on "stealth, blades, and speed."

Which is fine, but saying it depends on stealth does not mean FAST stealth. No one should have faster stealth than anyone else. I think vamp should lose it as well but I can understand it more. Being stealthy IMHO means you move slow and undetected. You certainly should not be able to move at normal speed and remain undetected.

GrumpyDuckling

Kwik1 wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Kwik1 wrote: »

Colecovision wrote: »

I think a Khajiit NB in particular should have no stealth penalty. Or all Khajiit. It's a cat, that's what they do.

Have you ever watched a cat when it is being sneaky? It moves very slowly and precisely.

The WHOLE point of sneaking is to move SLOW so you remain undetected.

I disagree with the OP completely. Vamps should be the only ones that can move fast while sneaking since that is an ability they have had throughout the history of vampires, no one else should. Just being a NB does not mean you are a stealth class as a lot of your abilities have nothing to do with stealth.

You can disagree all you want, but that doesn't make you right. Read the in-game description of a Nightblade during character creation. The description specifically mentions that the class relies on "stealth, blades, and speed."

Which is fine, but saying it depends on stealth does not mean FAST stealth. No one should have faster stealth than anyone else. I think vamp should lose it as well but I can understand it more. Being stealthy IMHO means you move slow and undetected. You certainly should not be able to move at normal speed and remain undetected.

I don't think you're realizing that the vampire passive allows characters to have the DEFAULT stealth speed that is set in the game. Every build is PENALIZED (ZOS' exact words) for stealth/sneaking unless they use the vampire passive or one of the two 5 piece sets that removes the sneak penalty.

If you're arguing that the default stealth speed is too high, then that is another matter. But the vampire passive only negates the penalty - it doesn't increase the speed, or make it "fast."

Kwik1

What I am saying is that I think EVERY build should move at half speed during stealth. If people think that is too much I apologize, it is just my personal opinion. Stealth can break a PVP game like no other and ruin in in a heartbeat.

IF they want to allow anyone to move faster then normal or at default speed I personally think vamps are the ONLY skill line that should get it. Just going off vampire lore, it fits with what they can do. I don't like it and would like it removed, but it is the only version that makes any sort of sense.

Again, I think ALL classes should move at half speed but if they want to allow vamps I could see the argument, but I don't like it.

If you were to go somewhere and try to sneak around without being detected, you automatically move at a much slower pace then normal to stay hidden. You don't walk at a normal pace with people 4' away from you and not expect them to notice you. Most of the games I personally play all have a movement penalty while sneaking and they do it for a reason, to have some sort of penalty. With no penalty it can quickly ruin the PVP part of the game.

From a fairness standpoint I think it should be half speed and from a logical standpoint I think it should be half speed.

Now I know my nephew plays the game and he loves stealth and he gets mad because the game is about magic and magic breaks rules and allows you to do things you couldn't normally do, and I get that. Casting an invis spell would in effect allow you to move faster or remain hidden better and I get that as well. I still think it should have the movement penalty to keep it from ruining the game for people who don't want to deal with stealthers. DAOC had a toxic community at times because of stealth. It was something that could quickly ruin the PVP aspect of the game for a lot of people. It is a very fine line to walk and try to keep the game fun for EVERYONE.

The question kind of becomes:

1) Make stealthers move faster and able to attack easier and make the stealthier happy.

2) or nerf the speed of stealth and make the community happy that doesn't want to deal with stealthing in pvp.

I have a feeling the NON stealthing community is much bigger then the ones that like stealthing so ZOS is leaning in that direction. It may not be fair but for me personally I much prefer it as I simply hate dealing with stealth. I just want to have fun straight up fights where everything is equal, but again I can see it from a stealther's point of view also.

GrumpyDuckling

It would be pretty cool if vampire wasn't so essential to Nightblade, ZOS.

aeowulf

It's not essential to any class. It does provide benefits that are well suited to Nightblades, but these same benefits are arguably more useful to non-NB. NB get cloak, which is a (very costly) 'sneak without speed penalty', Vampire is an option to provide it to non-NB, as are some sets.

NB can just 'stack' better though, with the two skills they get. Invis & a magicka skill granting speed boost whilst invis/stealthed. Kajiit or Bosmer also being able to stack one extra 'stealth' skill in addition. They pay dearly for that benefit because that same passive (stealth one) is borderline useless in the tougher PvE content. Great for questing though

There should be a difference between invis (cloak) & stealth. With the current cost, I don't believe a spell should be able to bring you out of invis unless it's one specifically designed to do that. I don't think it should halt damage to you at all either, and everytime you take damage you should probably 'puddle of blood' on the floor, leaving a trail to be followed in PvP. More ticks/damage = more blood. i.e. you can still be seen, but a lot tougher, and a bit of guesswork. Or some sort of shimmer effect so you're seen but not directly targetable (but a guaranteed hit for a 'bring out of stealth' skill kinda thing.)

Merlin13KAGL

Joosef_Kivikilpi wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

You designed Nightblade with specific focuses on stealth/sneaking, but you penalize the class' sneak speed (same as every other class) unless the character becomes a vampire (for Dark Stalker passive) or uses up a 5 piece set bonus (Night's Silence or Shadow Dancer's Raiment).

It seems like an odd decision to penalize sneaking on the class that you designed for stealth! Might I suggest adding the "Ignore the Movement Speed penalty while in Crouch" coding into the current Nightblade passive Dark Veil? That, or a similar decision, seems logical.

Because I know people will bring it up, yes, Concealed Weapon offers a separate movement bonus while stealthed or invisible, which is great for magicka Nightblades. It's not as useful for Stamina Nightblades, who have to give up a key skill in Surprise Attack to access Concealed Weapon.

This ^ ---> I'm SO tired of Vampires always being picked for OP reasons AND they get sneak speed buffs.

Please let normal humans have a decent chance at sneaking.

Ideas:

1. Make Night Silence 5 piece give another bonus like weapon damage (like the reduce detection radius 5 piece set or Shadow's Raiment).
2. Give it in a passive for Thieves Guild OR Dark Brotherhood for max rank.
3. OR Legerdemain so people don't complain it's "Pay to Win" (because Shadow Mount 50% NPC detection radius on mount isn't pay to win when you can escape pvp characters in Imperial City because you're on your horse going through NPCs and they aggro on your enemy instead of you hahaha /s)

Isn't the reverse of this usually where people chime in a say 'deal with the consequences of the character choices you made' anytime someone mentions the vamp look?

Goes both ways.

• Wear the gear.
• Get a bite.
• Enjoy snail speed.

Those are your three options.

victoriana-blue

My main is now a farming vampire stamblade, with concealed, rapids, and the Steed. And that's nothing compared to pre-Morrowind, I miss being able to compete with sorcs for ground speed. (When I changed to surprise attack and the Warrior last week to test some dps stuff, I kept hitting rapids even when it was active because he was so slow.)

I'd be really happy if ZOS would give us a PvE quality of life skill line, explicitly deactivated in PvP. Increase sneak speed for everyone, a craft material-only auto-loot, reduced mat gathering times for everyone (not just high CP folks, and harvesters would still be targets in Cyrodiil)...

GrumpyDuckling

Edit: Updated on 5/28/18 to tag class reps that I could find.

@Alcast
@Checkmath
@FeaR Turbo
@Hexys
@Joy_Division
@KenaPKK
@Liofa
@Masel92
@Quantum_V
@stileanima
@Tasear

Tasear

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Edit: Updated on 5/28/18 to tag class reps that I could find.

@Alcast
@Checkmath
@FeaR Turbo
@Hexys
@Joy_Division
@KenaPKK
@Liofa
@Masel92
@Quantum_V
@stileanima
@Tasear

The issue has been noted and brought this up to talk about in nightblade discord with everyone.