Wrath is gone from heavy armor but it wasn't the problem

Yellow_Monolith

The problem with heavy armor is over performing sets i.e Ravager, Seventh legion, Knight errant, etc.
So if light armor magic characters get super tanky from shields and keep the damage output.
Medium armor gets no shields, reduce roll dodge and is extremely squishy.
And Heavy armor has amazing healing, resources back, no real loss of damage compared to medium armor, amazing over performing sets where does that leave medium armor as viable for pvp?
After playing battlegrounds tonight, I can say 90% of everyone in there I fought was in heavy armor.
What does everyone else think of heavy armor right now? Its weird to think that heavy armor "The guys that should be slow, hard to kill slugs on the battlefield" are doing the most damage.

coop500

Heavy armor is pretty overpreforming, my stamina NB that was meant to just be tanky also does as much damage as my stamina sorc on medium armor and it's just silly

Taleof2Cities

Where's that beating the dead horse meme again?

Betsararie

Everyone already knows this.... Heavy armor provides better defense than damage shields but only slighty. Medium armor is unplayable, would rather my toon wear literal garbage.

Anyone decent is running heavy now, Heavy does need a slight nerf.

Damage shields don't need to be nerfed at all, though.

ForsakenSin

Blanco wrote: »

Everyone already knows this.... Heavy armor provides better defense than damage shields but only slighty. Medium armor is unplayable, would rather my toon wear literal garbage.

Anyone decent is running heavy now, Heavy does need a slight nerf.Medium armor dose need a buff

Damage shields don't need to be nerfed at all, though.

there you go fixed it for ya

VaranisArano

I'm always amazed by the people who think that people can't/shouldn't be mobile or active on the battlefield in heavy armor. That's simply not how it was historically.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTwBQniLSc

Now, that's not to say that ZOS has gotten the balance of tankiness to damage potential quite right - they certainly haven't. But please don't repeat bad myths about historical armor in order to justify your argument. That's bad history. Real armor is so much cooler than that.

Doctordarkspawn

Glorious.

Classic example of "PVPERS WILL NEVER BE SATISFIED".

Everyone cries about Wrath. Wrath is removed. "WRATH WASN'T THE PROBLEM".

Never give into a minority. They will only ask for more. Appeasement is never the answer.

Thogard

Cactus316000 wrote: »

The problem with heavy armor is over performing sets i.e Ravager, Seventh legion, Knight errant, etc.
So if light armor magic characters get super tanky from shields and keep the damage output.
Medium armor gets no shields, reduce roll dodge and is extremely squishy.
And Heavy armor has amazing healing, resources back, no real loss of damage compared to medium armor, amazing over performing sets where does that leave medium armor as viable for pvp?
After playing battlegrounds tonight, I can say 90% of everyone in there I fought was in heavy armor.
What does everyone else think of heavy armor right now? Its weird to think that heavy armor "The guys that should be slow, hard to kill slugs on the battlefield" are doing the most damage.

Most good BG players are in medium (Stam) or light (mag), with the exception of healers who tend to be in heavy

I can’t think of a “top” bg player in heavy on PC NA that isn’t a magplar...

coop500

Yeah we had enough nerfs, don't nerf heavy armor, buff Medium so it's not so useless

Betsararie

ForsakenSin wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Everyone already knows this.... Heavy armor provides better defense than damage shields but only slighty. Medium armor is unplayable, would rather my toon wear literal garbage.

Anyone decent is running heavy now, Heavy does need a slight nerf.Medium armor dose need a buff

Damage shields don't need to be nerfed at all, though.

there you go fixed it for ya

This is actually pretty legit.

There could be an argument for this, somewhere in there. It's just so bad now, it's hard to even envision it being decent at this point. Needs to be reworked from the ground up.

VaranisArano

Its almost like the dominance of heavy armor is a combination of factors including CP, specific gear sets, passive bonuses, and blocking.

Then add in the difficulty of balancing for PVP in Battlegrounds 4v4v4 and PVP in Cyrodiil (designed for groups of 2 to 24 players with everything from solo players to zergs to faction stacks) and you start to see that balancing armor sets has a lot more pieces to balance. Nerf something for Battlegrounds and you might destroy a playstyle for open field battle in Cyrodiil. ZOS has to balance both and they seem to be moving one step at a time on the heavy armor problem.

Arobain

medium armor is unplayable? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cdk2Fs2CP0

Doctordarkspawn

VaranisArano wrote: »

Its almost like the dominance of heavy armor is a combination of factors including CP, specific gear sets, passive bonuses, and blocking.

Then add in the difficulty of balancing for PVP in Battlegrounds 4v4v4 and PVP in Cyrodiil (designed for groups of 2 to 24 players with everything from solo players to zergs to faction stacks) and you start to see that balancing armor sets has a lot more pieces to balance. Nerf something for Battlegrounds and you might destroy a playstyle for open field battle in Cyrodiil. ZOS has to balance both and they seem to be moving one step at a time on the heavy armor problem.

Alternatively, they could just finally seperate PVE, PVP in Cyro, then battlegrounds, and take them each at a time. But they wont do that, because that's too much work and requires them to go back on a position.

Yellow_Monolith

VaranisArano wrote: »

Its almost like the dominance of heavy armor is a combination of factors including CP, specific gear sets, passive bonuses, and blocking.

Then add in the difficulty of balancing for PVP in Battlegrounds 4v4v4 and PVP in Cyrodiil (designed for groups of 2 to 24 players with everything from solo players to zergs to faction stacks) and you start to see that balancing armor sets has a lot more pieces to balance. Nerf something for Battlegrounds and you might destroy a playstyle for open field battle in Cyrodiil. ZOS has to balance both and they seem to be moving one step at a time on the heavy armor problem.

I used battlegrounds as an example as I got some good 1 on 1 fights there tonight. I don't think light armor needs to be touched. I do believe some sets need to be looked at seriously. Zos made a good start taking shuffle off heavy armor builds. Maybe in the Q1 free update Zos will balance some sets and skills again

zaria

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Where's that beating the dead horse meme again?

Stablemasters has taken an strict position against horse beating. If you beat horses you are will not be able to feed them.
This also aptly to camels and guars. Senche, wolfs and bears will instead feed on you.

Doctordarkspawn

Cactus316000 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Its almost like the dominance of heavy armor is a combination of factors including CP, specific gear sets, passive bonuses, and blocking.

Then add in the difficulty of balancing for PVP in Battlegrounds 4v4v4 and PVP in Cyrodiil (designed for groups of 2 to 24 players with everything from solo players to zergs to faction stacks) and you start to see that balancing armor sets has a lot more pieces to balance. Nerf something for Battlegrounds and you might destroy a playstyle for open field battle in Cyrodiil. ZOS has to balance both and they seem to be moving one step at a time on the heavy armor problem.

I used battlegrounds as an example as I got some good 1 on 1 fights there tonight. I don't think light armor needs to be touched. I do believe some sets need to be looked at seriously. Zos made a good start taking shuffle off heavy armor builds. Maybe in the Q1 free update Zos will balance some sets and skills again

A good start for BG maybe, but utterly destroyed one of the few defensive capabilities tanks had been relying on.

THE MORE WE CATER TO PVP, THE MORE PVE SUFFERS. THE MORE WE CATER TO PVP. THE MORE PVE SUFFERS. REPEAT AFTER ME.

Betsararie

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Cactus316000 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Its almost like the dominance of heavy armor is a combination of factors including CP, specific gear sets, passive bonuses, and blocking.

Then add in the difficulty of balancing for PVP in Battlegrounds 4v4v4 and PVP in Cyrodiil (designed for groups of 2 to 24 players with everything from solo players to zergs to faction stacks) and you start to see that balancing armor sets has a lot more pieces to balance. Nerf something for Battlegrounds and you might destroy a playstyle for open field battle in Cyrodiil. ZOS has to balance both and they seem to be moving one step at a time on the heavy armor problem.

I used battlegrounds as an example as I got some good 1 on 1 fights there tonight. I don't think light armor needs to be touched. I do believe some sets need to be looked at seriously. Zos made a good start taking shuffle off heavy armor builds. Maybe in the Q1 free update Zos will balance some sets and skills again

A good start for BG maybe, but utterly destroyed one of the few defensive capabilities tanks had been relying on.

THE MORE WE CATER TO PVP, THE MORE PVE SUFFERS. THE MORE WE CATER TO PVP. THE MORE PVE SUFFERS. REPEAT AFTER ME.

It seems like most people here care about PvP, really, I still think we should balance in terms of PvP.

For PVE, no matter what there's always going to be one single BIS, so it will never make any sense to run anything but that one combination. In PvP, that is not true at all. There are variables such as playstyle and many others.

Doctordarkspawn

Blanco wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Cactus316000 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Its almost like the dominance of heavy armor is a combination of factors including CP, specific gear sets, passive bonuses, and blocking.

Then add in the difficulty of balancing for PVP in Battlegrounds 4v4v4 and PVP in Cyrodiil (designed for groups of 2 to 24 players with everything from solo players to zergs to faction stacks) and you start to see that balancing armor sets has a lot more pieces to balance. Nerf something for Battlegrounds and you might destroy a playstyle for open field battle in Cyrodiil. ZOS has to balance both and they seem to be moving one step at a time on the heavy armor problem.

I used battlegrounds as an example as I got some good 1 on 1 fights there tonight. I don't think light armor needs to be touched. I do believe some sets need to be looked at seriously. Zos made a good start taking shuffle off heavy armor builds. Maybe in the Q1 free update Zos will balance some sets and skills again

A good start for BG maybe, but utterly destroyed one of the few defensive capabilities tanks had been relying on.

THE MORE WE CATER TO PVP, THE MORE PVE SUFFERS. THE MORE WE CATER TO PVP. THE MORE PVE SUFFERS. REPEAT AFTER ME.

It seems like most people here care about PvP, really, I still think we should balance in terms of PvP.

For PVE, no matter what there's always going to be one single BIS, so it will never make any sense to run anything but that one combination. In PvP, that is not true at all. There are variables such as playstyle and many others.

If there is, it is the fault of the system.

And that system needs overhauled, no doubt about that, but until they *** do, there needs to be a friggin cut on how much we nerf PVE for the sake of PVP.

Yellow_Monolith

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Cactus316000 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Its almost like the dominance of heavy armor is a combination of factors including CP, specific gear sets, passive bonuses, and blocking.

Then add in the difficulty of balancing for PVP in Battlegrounds 4v4v4 and PVP in Cyrodiil (designed for groups of 2 to 24 players with everything from solo players to zergs to faction stacks) and you start to see that balancing armor sets has a lot more pieces to balance. Nerf something for Battlegrounds and you might destroy a playstyle for open field battle in Cyrodiil. ZOS has to balance both and they seem to be moving one step at a time on the heavy armor problem.

I used battlegrounds as an example as I got some good 1 on 1 fights there tonight. I don't think light armor needs to be touched. I do believe some sets need to be looked at seriously. Zos made a good start taking shuffle off heavy armor builds. Maybe in the Q1 free update Zos will balance some sets and skills again

A good start for BG maybe, but utterly destroyed one of the few defensive capabilities tanks had been relying on.

THE MORE WE CATER TO PVP, THE MORE PVE SUFFERS. THE MORE WE CATER TO PVP. THE MORE PVE SUFFERS. REPEAT AFTER ME.

If your pve tank is running ravager or seventh legion. You might want to talk to your tank

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm always amazed by the people who think that people can't/shouldn't be mobile or active on the battlefield in heavy armor. That's simply not how it was historically.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTwBQniLSc

Now, that's not to say that ZOS has gotten the balance of tankiness to damage potential quite right - they certainly haven't. But please don't repeat bad myths about historical armor in order to justify your argument. That's bad history. Real armor is so much cooler than that.

To be fair it we are using real life as a point steel armor should make you 100% immune to bladed weapons as you can’t cut steel with a sword.

Edit: Arrows should be murder on light armor. To say nothing about magic...

ManDraKE

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Cactus316000 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Its almost like the dominance of heavy armor is a combination of factors including CP, specific gear sets, passive bonuses, and blocking.

Then add in the difficulty of balancing for PVP in Battlegrounds 4v4v4 and PVP in Cyrodiil (designed for groups of 2 to 24 players with everything from solo players to zergs to faction stacks) and you start to see that balancing armor sets has a lot more pieces to balance. Nerf something for Battlegrounds and you might destroy a playstyle for open field battle in Cyrodiil. ZOS has to balance both and they seem to be moving one step at a time on the heavy armor problem.

I used battlegrounds as an example as I got some good 1 on 1 fights there tonight. I don't think light armor needs to be touched. I do believe some sets need to be looked at seriously. Zos made a good start taking shuffle off heavy armor builds. Maybe in the Q1 free update Zos will balance some sets and skills again

A good start for BG maybe, but utterly destroyed one of the few defensive capabilities tanks had been relying on.

THE MORE WE CATER TO PVP, THE MORE PVE SUFFERS. THE MORE WE CATER TO PVP. THE MORE PVE SUFFERS. REPEAT AFTER ME.

how PvE suffers? last time i check, players were still doing HM of all Vet trials with no problems, vMA was still a walk in the park, and dungeons are even worth mention, so explain me how "PVE suffers", because it don't get it. I hear the "PvE is getting ruined by PvP balance" a millon times, and yet i haven't see any PvP related change that actually affected PvE in a disruptive way. Block cost, sustain and other factors have been nerfed a dozen times and people is still completing the hardest content of the game the same day a patch get released (if not before), and what people fails to realize that PvE was the MAIN reason why they nerfed sustain and other aspects the last couple of patches, players were so strong that was getting imposible to balance the content.

LordSemaj

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

To be fair it we are using real life as a point steel armor should make you 100% immune to bladed weapons as you can cut steel with a sword

And yet people wearing steel armor still died to blades and axes across many wars. Mainly because a solid steel person can't actually move as Iron Man demonstrates repeatedly when his power systems fail. To allow for movement in combat, the body is not 100% covered by steel. The joints are a weakness and even the breastplate only deflects blows when it's unbattered and capable of dispersing the energy of the attack. After getting hammered out of shape, it no longer protects quite like it used to. Armor has to be shaped appropriately to deflect blows which is why a lot of it looks bulky and curved. There's also the magic of science and how the tip of a sword acts as basic Wedge, a common "machine" that focuses strength into a singular point for penetration.

There's a lot of ways to kill someone in armor with a bladed weapon.

Samadhi

Cactus316000 wrote: »

The problem with heavy armor is over performing sets i.e Ravager, Seventh legion, Knight errant, etc.
...
Medium armor gets no shields, reduce roll dodge and is extremely squishy.
And Heavy armor has amazing healing, resources back, no real loss of damage compared to medium armor, amazing over performing sets where does that leave medium armor as viable for pvp?
...

You mention both Ravager and Seventh Legion Brute,
which have an 8% chance of buffing for 10 seconds and a 10% chance of buffing for 5 seconds respectively

How do you feel running Ravager + Seventh Legion compares to running Automaton + Sword Dancer
do you feel the % chance for temporary proc is better than the permanent stack on physical damage dual wield skills?
do you feel the survivability of Heavy Armour offsets having to wait for procs?
do you feel resource pools are too readily available for players in heavy when the procs temporarily buff them?

Comprehend that you are expressing an issue with sets that stack up Weapon Damage stat
so comparing them directly, what do you feel makes the proc chance of Heavy more beneficial than the constant pool of Medium

Doctordarkspawn

Cactus316000 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Cactus316000 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Its almost like the dominance of heavy armor is a combination of factors including CP, specific gear sets, passive bonuses, and blocking.

Then add in the difficulty of balancing for PVP in Battlegrounds 4v4v4 and PVP in Cyrodiil (designed for groups of 2 to 24 players with everything from solo players to zergs to faction stacks) and you start to see that balancing armor sets has a lot more pieces to balance. Nerf something for Battlegrounds and you might destroy a playstyle for open field battle in Cyrodiil. ZOS has to balance both and they seem to be moving one step at a time on the heavy armor problem.

I used battlegrounds as an example as I got some good 1 on 1 fights there tonight. I don't think light armor needs to be touched. I do believe some sets need to be looked at seriously. Zos made a good start taking shuffle off heavy armor builds. Maybe in the Q1 free update Zos will balance some sets and skills again

A good start for BG maybe, but utterly destroyed one of the few defensive capabilities tanks had been relying on.

THE MORE WE CATER TO PVP, THE MORE PVE SUFFERS. THE MORE WE CATER TO PVP. THE MORE PVE SUFFERS. REPEAT AFTER ME.

If your pve tank is running ravager or seventh legion. You might want to talk to your tank

If you were running shuffle, plus the set that gives ult on dodge, and hist bark, you were running the meta.

Mettaricana

coop500 wrote: »

Heavy armor is pretty overpreforming, my stamina NB that was meant to just be tanky also does as much damage as my stamina sorc on medium armor and it's just silly

Inbox me that build or gear my nb is dead af

Goshua

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm always amazed by the people who think that people can't/shouldn't be mobile or active on the battlefield in heavy armor. That's simply not how it was historically.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTwBQniLSc

Now, that's not to say that ZOS has gotten the balance of tankiness to damage potential quite right - they certainly haven't. But please don't repeat bad myths about historical armor in order to justify your argument. That's bad history. Real armor is so much cooler than that.

What is true is that they tired fast. Doing a few star jumps and push ups is not in the same ball park as being in a skirmish and fighting for your life against multiple opponents, any longer than 5 mins solid you'd be worn out in HA.

FloppyTouch

ManDraKE wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Cactus316000 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Its almost like the dominance of heavy armor is a combination of factors including CP, specific gear sets, passive bonuses, and blocking.

Then add in the difficulty of balancing for PVP in Battlegrounds 4v4v4 and PVP in Cyrodiil (designed for groups of 2 to 24 players with everything from solo players to zergs to faction stacks) and you start to see that balancing armor sets has a lot more pieces to balance. Nerf something for Battlegrounds and you might destroy a playstyle for open field battle in Cyrodiil. ZOS has to balance both and they seem to be moving one step at a time on the heavy armor problem.

I used battlegrounds as an example as I got some good 1 on 1 fights there tonight. I don't think light armor needs to be touched. I do believe some sets need to be looked at seriously. Zos made a good start taking shuffle off heavy armor builds. Maybe in the Q1 free update Zos will balance some sets and skills again

A good start for BG maybe, but utterly destroyed one of the few defensive capabilities tanks had been relying on.

THE MORE WE CATER TO PVP, THE MORE PVE SUFFERS. THE MORE WE CATER TO PVP. THE MORE PVE SUFFERS. REPEAT AFTER ME.

how PvE suffers? last time i check, players were still doing HM of all Vet trials with no problems, vMA was still a walk in the park, and dungeons are even worth mention, so explain me how "PVE suffers", because it don't get it. I hear the "PvE is getting ruined by PvP balance" a millon times, and yet i haven't see any PvP related change that actually affected PvE in a disruptive way. Block cost, sustain and other factors have been nerfed a dozen times and people is still completing the hardest content of the game the same day a patch get released (if not before), and what people fails to realize that PvE was the MAIN reason why they nerfed sustain and other aspects the last couple of patches, players were so strong that was getting imposible to balance the content.

Very solid argument and will most likely get ignored bc it just makes to much sense. People in pve just don’t like when a change comes they have to do their cp again and Chang a skill or two. Then they are right back to infinite sustain and 40k dps. Look how every sorc and stam dk went to just heavy attack builds and did even better dps then before.

Truth is nothing from pvp can ever hurt pve bc it’s easy and not hard to adapt with slight changes to cp or rotation.

For pvp it’s really hard to adapt to an OP class or skill it’s pretty much deal with it or jump ship to the new meta.

Publius_Scipio

I agree heavy armor is still not very balanced when compared to medium armor. In most PvP situations why would a player “waste” time decked out in medium?

Betsararie

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

I agree heavy armor is still not very balanced when compared to medium armor. In most PvP situations why would a player “waste” time decked out in medium?

when they don't understand the game.

You'd be amazed at the attacks I get here after saying that.

zyk

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

THE MORE WE CATER TO PVP, THE MORE PVE SUFFERS. THE MORE WE CATER TO PVP. THE MORE PVE SUFFERS. REPEAT AFTER ME.

This guy is the ultimate casual who wants ESO to be even easier. Stop crutching and learn how to play. PVP is part of this game and it should be balanced to the greatest degree possible.

I play medium with my stam builds because it's a rush. I love the speed. I've never had a heavy stam build even though I know it's advantageous.

I don't think medium is worse than light. The mobility is amazing and there should be a trade-off for that. I love playing medium builds, even if they are at a head to head combat disadvantage to heavy atm. I think that actually makes sense. If medium is to be buffed, so too should light, IMO.

I think it makes more sense to adjust heavy so that more PVE content isn't trivialized.

Joy_Division

Thogard wrote: »

Cactus316000 wrote: »

The problem with heavy armor is over performing sets i.e Ravager, Seventh legion, Knight errant, etc.
So if light armor magic characters get super tanky from shields and keep the damage output.
Medium armor gets no shields, reduce roll dodge and is extremely squishy.
And Heavy armor has amazing healing, resources back, no real loss of damage compared to medium armor, amazing over performing sets where does that leave medium armor as viable for pvp?
After playing battlegrounds tonight, I can say 90% of everyone in there I fought was in heavy armor.
What does everyone else think of heavy armor right now? Its weird to think that heavy armor "The guys that should be slow, hard to kill slugs on the battlefield" are doing the most damage.

Most good BG players are in medium (Stam) or light (mag), with the exception of healers who tend to be in heavy

I can’t think of a “top” bg player in heavy on PC NA that isn’t a magplar...

I know right. Exactly how does the OP know 90% of the players are in heavy armor? Did they conduct a poll afterward?

Just because a player has trouble killing an opponent, it doesn't mean that opponent is wearing heavy and it doesn't mean ZoS needs to re-balance the game