Group finder punishment on disband just wrong

swirve

I just used activity finder to join a random... as i joined the group disbanded and im stuck with a 14min penalty ffs.

It was a normal dng with low lvls and i would have carried them through it as i use GF a lot.

But now i got a 14min penalty when im short on time...this happens several times a week.

Thanks for this broken nonsense... cam sum1 please do something about this...@ZOS_GinaBruno

SirBaldrick

I'm not sure on this but maybe if you wait for all other players to leave group you won't get penalty?

AlienatedGoat

The penalty needs to be revised, for sure.

What really sucks is when the DF bugs out and loads you into your empty completed dungeon instance when you requeue for another dungeon.

15 minute penalty because of a bug.

Seriously.

VaranisArano

It sucked that this happened to you when you didn't mean to have the group disband.

The queue penalty is in place to prevent groups from dungeon hopping, basically getting a hard dungeon, leaving, and requeuing until they get an easy dungeon without any penalty. Its because the Daily Random Dungeon is random and includes the risk of more difficult dungeons, and is not the "guaranteed quik'n'easy" daily random dungeon.

Now, I'm not saying that was your intent, its pretty clear that you would have carried the group anyway. But if there weren't a penalty, we almost certainly would see people disbanding and requeuing from harder dungeons. The game doesn't have any way to divine player intent here, so all it can do is penalize behavior. So someone having a group dissolve on them takes the same penalty as someone looking at, say White Gold Tower, and noping out of there in hopes of getting an easier dungeon. Random dungeons have the extra reward of exp and items because of the risk/reward of getting harder dungeons. The queue penalty makes players choose between accepting the "Random" part of the daily random dungeon or wait 15 minutes to try again.

So again, that sucks and I'm sorry your group couldn't make it work. The penalty isn't aimed at that situation, but the game can't distinguish between your situation and the situation the penalty is actually aimed at - preventing players from skipping out on harder dungeons willy-nilly.

AlienatedGoat

SirBaldrick wrote: »

I'm not sure on this but maybe if you wait for all other players to leave group you won't get penalty?

Nope. They can all leave, and you get left alone with a 15 minute penalty parting gift.

SirBaldrick

Phage wrote: »

SirBaldrick wrote: »

I'm not sure on this but maybe if you wait for all other players to leave group you won't get penalty?

Nope. They can all leave, and you get left alone with a 15 minute penalty parting gift.

Damn. Then this should at least be fixed.

bhagwad

SirBaldrick wrote: »

I'm not sure on this but maybe if you wait for all other players to leave group you won't get penalty?

That's exactly what happened. It's happened for me as well. Everyone leaves, I'm the only one who didn't leave, and I get a 15 minute penalty.

bhagwad

VaranisArano wrote: »

It sucked that this happened to you when you didn't mean to have the group disband.

The queue penalty is in place to prevent groups from dungeon hopping, basically getting a hard dungeon, leaving, and requeuing until they get an easy dungeon without any penalty. Its because the Daily Random Dungeon is random and includes the risk of more difficult dungeons, and is not the "guaranteed quik'n'easy" daily random dungeon.

Now, I'm not saying that was your intent, its pretty clear that you would have carried the group anyway. But if there weren't a penalty, we almost certainly would see people disbanding and requeuing from harder dungeons. The game doesn't have any way to divine player intent here, so all it can do is penalize behavior. So someone having a group dissolve on them takes the same penalty as someone looking at, say White Gold Tower, and noping out of there in hopes of getting an easier dungeon. Random dungeons have the extra reward of exp and items because of the risk/reward of getting harder dungeons. The queue penalty makes players choose between accepting the "Random" part of the daily random dungeon or wait 15 minutes to try again.

So again, that sucks and I'm sorry your group couldn't make it work. The penalty isn't aimed at that situation, but the game can't distinguish between your situation and the situation the penalty is actually aimed at - preventing players from skipping out on harder dungeons willy-nilly.

Only one person the group can actually be left disbanded. All the others have to manually leave, which can get them the 15 minute penalty.

In your scenario if everyone disbanded, 3 of them would be hit with the 15 minute penalty. Only the fourth member who chose to stay should not get the penalty.

Yet for the OP (and myself), even the fourth person gets the penalty, which is unfair. To clarify,

Four group members A, B, C, D.

1. A leaves the group. A gets a 15 minute penalty. Group now only has 3 members B, C, and D.
2. Then B leaves the group. B gets a 15 minute penalty. Group now only has 2 members C, and D.
3. C leaves next. C also gets a 15 minute penalty
4. However, poor D has not left the group. The group is "disbanded" forcefully by the system.
5. D should NOT get a penalty. Because they didn't leave.

Nerouyn

This happened to me.

I ran afoul of the bug where I joined a group after they'd after they'd already started the instance and someone else had left, then it refused to load me into the instance and on top of that, the game crashed.

By the time I'd logged back in, I'd been kicked from the group and penalised for the bug.

I can understand the penalty for players who CHOOSE to abandon to a group, but applying the penalty to players who don't make that choice is problematic.

That said I'm not keen on doing any more dungeon content in the near future so this one doesn't bother me so much.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

It is because the timer isnt actually a penalty for someone leaving. The timer starts for everyone as soon as they are placed in the dungeon. Yes it is there to encourage people to stay. But people don’t get the timer for leaving. You get it for being placed in a dungeon.

They took the quick easy way out when trying to stop people from leaving. Add it to a jacked up group finder and it gives you nothing but a head ache.

VaranisArano

bhagwad wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

It sucked that this happened to you when you didn't mean to have the group disband.

The queue penalty is in place to prevent groups from dungeon hopping, basically getting a hard dungeon, leaving, and requeuing until they get an easy dungeon without any penalty. Its because the Daily Random Dungeon is random and includes the risk of more difficult dungeons, and is not the "guaranteed quik'n'easy" daily random dungeon.

Now, I'm not saying that was your intent, its pretty clear that you would have carried the group anyway. But if there weren't a penalty, we almost certainly would see people disbanding and requeuing from harder dungeons. The game doesn't have any way to divine player intent here, so all it can do is penalize behavior. So someone having a group dissolve on them takes the same penalty as someone looking at, say White Gold Tower, and noping out of there in hopes of getting an easier dungeon. Random dungeons have the extra reward of exp and items because of the risk/reward of getting harder dungeons. The queue penalty makes players choose between accepting the "Random" part of the daily random dungeon or wait 15 minutes to try again.

So again, that sucks and I'm sorry your group couldn't make it work. The penalty isn't aimed at that situation, but the game can't distinguish between your situation and the situation the penalty is actually aimed at - preventing players from skipping out on harder dungeons willy-nilly.

Only one person the group can actually be left disbanded. All the others have to manually leave, which can get them the 15 minute penalty.

In your scenario if everyone disbanded, 3 of them would be hit with the 15 minute penalty. Only the fourth member who chose to stay should not get the penalty.

Yet for the OP (and myself), even the fourth person gets the penalty, which is unfair. To clarify,

Four group members A, B, C, D.

1. A leaves the group. A gets a 15 minute penalty. Group now only has 3 members B, C, and D.
2. Then B leaves the group. B gets a 15 minute penalty. Group now only has 2 members C, and D.
3. C leaves next. C also gets a 15 minute penalty
4. However, poor D has not left the group. The group is "disbanded" forcefully by the system.
5. D should NOT get a penalty. Because they didn't leave.

Now consider this in the situation I pointed out. Group hits White Gold Tower and decides to nope on out of there. One person gets no penalty because they were last out. How's that fair?

The game has no way of distinguishing "I got left behind by my group" and "I don't want this dungeon" (whether for 4 people for just the last person in the group). The latter is what the penalty is aimed at addressing.

Apache_Kid

I got a 20 minute deserter penalty from BGs yesterday when my game froze due to a coding error and kicked me back to the Xbox Dashboard. The unfair penalties suck. As @VaranisArano stated though the penalties need to be in the game. I just wish the game worked better and was less buggy so we wouldn't get them unjustly.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO

If I remember correctly, the idea behind the penalty was to prevent people getting into the same party the just left/were kicked from. I would like some change, yes:

• Dungeons should have rules to allow entrance only to people meeting conditions . It makes no sense my random is vFH if Im CP10. Really, just a waste of four people's time. Similarly, if I still haven't cleared Fungal Grotto, don't send me to Tempest Island. Or to a "2" dungeons, which have stronger mechanics and dps checks until I cleared all "1" in veteran.
• Instead of a blind dungeon, you are presented with a list of three random dungeons. You can see the three dungeons. You decide where you go.
• Random dungeons provide XP and some nice gift, based on their objective difficulty. Completing vWGT should have a better reward that completing FG1.
• You only have one shot. And N deaths. If you fail no gift for you today. Bonus gifts if you have a 7-15-30 days streak of success.
• Rewards should only be provided to people playing veterans. This would prevent lazy 690s infesting nornmal dungeons.
• You won't be grouped with people you blacklist. Blacklisting being different than PSN.
• PUGs only. Lets stop OP groups burning everything down in seconds and promote interacting with human beings!

Just a couple of ideas.

bhagwad

VaranisArano wrote: »

bhagwad wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

It sucked that this happened to you when you didn't mean to have the group disband.

The queue penalty is in place to prevent groups from dungeon hopping, basically getting a hard dungeon, leaving, and requeuing until they get an easy dungeon without any penalty. Its because the Daily Random Dungeon is random and includes the risk of more difficult dungeons, and is not the "guaranteed quik'n'easy" daily random dungeon.

Now, I'm not saying that was your intent, its pretty clear that you would have carried the group anyway. But if there weren't a penalty, we almost certainly would see people disbanding and requeuing from harder dungeons. The game doesn't have any way to divine player intent here, so all it can do is penalize behavior. So someone having a group dissolve on them takes the same penalty as someone looking at, say White Gold Tower, and noping out of there in hopes of getting an easier dungeon. Random dungeons have the extra reward of exp and items because of the risk/reward of getting harder dungeons. The queue penalty makes players choose between accepting the "Random" part of the daily random dungeon or wait 15 minutes to try again.

So again, that sucks and I'm sorry your group couldn't make it work. The penalty isn't aimed at that situation, but the game can't distinguish between your situation and the situation the penalty is actually aimed at - preventing players from skipping out on harder dungeons willy-nilly.

Only one person the group can actually be left disbanded. All the others have to manually leave, which can get them the 15 minute penalty.

In your scenario if everyone disbanded, 3 of them would be hit with the 15 minute penalty. Only the fourth member who chose to stay should not get the penalty.

Yet for the OP (and myself), even the fourth person gets the penalty, which is unfair. To clarify,

Four group members A, B, C, D.

1. A leaves the group. A gets a 15 minute penalty. Group now only has 3 members B, C, and D.
2. Then B leaves the group. B gets a 15 minute penalty. Group now only has 2 members C, and D.
3. C leaves next. C also gets a 15 minute penalty
4. However, poor D has not left the group. The group is "disbanded" forcefully by the system.
5. D should NOT get a penalty. Because they didn't leave.

The game has no way of distinguishing "I got left behind by my group" and "I don't want this dungeon"

Of course the game can distinguish it. One involves manually going to Social -> Group -> Leave Group. The other requires no action. It's very easy to distinguish between the two.

This "exploit" you're describing requires three people to get a 15 minute penalty. No one is going to do that!

bhagwad

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

If I remember correctly, the idea behind the penalty was to prevent people getting into the same party the just left/were kicked from. I would like some change, yes:

• Dungeons should have rules to allow entrance only to people meeting conditions . It makes no sense my random is vFH if Im CP10. Really, just a waste of four people's time. Similarly, if I still haven't cleared Fungal Grotto, don't send me to Tempest Island. Or to a "2" dungeons, which have stronger mechanics and dps checks until I cleared all "1" in veteran.
• Instead of a blind dungeon, you are presented with a list of three random dungeons. You can see the three dungeons. You decide where you go.
• Random dungeons provide XP and some nice gift, based on their objective difficulty. Completing vWGT should have a better reward that completing FG1.
• You only have one shot. And N deaths. If you fail no gift for you today. Bonus gifts if you have a 7-15-30 days streak of success.
• Rewards should only be provided to people playing veterans. This would prevent lazy 690s infesting nornmal dungeons.
• You won't be grouped with people you blacklist. Blacklisting being different than PSN.
• PUGs only. Lets stop OP groups burning everything down in seconds and promote interacting with human beings!

Just a couple of ideas.

You receive no penalty if you get kicked. In fact, the kicked person often comes right back into the same group within seconds.

monktoasty

VaranisArano wrote: »

It sucked that this happened to you when you didn't mean to have the group disband.

The queue penalty is in place to prevent groups from dungeon hopping, basically getting a hard dungeon, leaving, and requeuing until they get an easy dungeon without any penalty. Its because the Daily Random Dungeon is random and includes the risk of more difficult dungeons, and is not the "guaranteed quik'n'easy" daily random dungeon.

Now, I'm not saying that was your intent, its pretty clear that you would have carried the group anyway. But if there weren't a penalty, we almost certainly would see people disbanding and requeuing from harder dungeons. The game doesn't have any way to divine player intent here, so all it can do is penalize behavior. So someone having a group dissolve on them takes the same penalty as someone looking at, say White Gold Tower, and noping out of there in hopes of getting an easier dungeon. Random dungeons have the extra reward of exp and items because of the risk/reward of getting harder dungeons. The queue penalty makes players choose between accepting the "Random" part of the daily random dungeon or wait 15 minutes to try again.

So again, that sucks and I'm sorry your group couldn't make it work. The penalty isn't aimed at that situation, but the game can't distinguish between your situation and the situation the penalty is actually aimed at - preventing players from skipping out on harder dungeons willy-nilly.

I NEVER believe in punishing the innocent to avoid evil. The MOST evil is an innocent getting punished.

It's better to have no punishment then 1 single innocent person suffer uneededly.

I can of cpurse solve this issue..but I never reveal my ideas unless I get paid.

MasterSpatula

The penalty was necessary, because people would join Group Finder groups, not like the results, and just bail, screwing over the other players. This needed to be discouraged, hence the penalty.

But it's ZOS, the company that decided to punish the most elite players who had unlimited resources with a Sustain Nerf that targeted characters who already had poor sustain the most and left the elite players mostly right where they were. Can you be surprised that they implemented a penalty for bailing on your group in a way that punishes the victims?

I used to think ZOS was like that one terrible teacher we all had who punished the whole class for one kid passing notes or chewing gum. But the reality is much worse. They're like R. Lee Emory in "Full Metal Jacket," making the entire squad do pushups while Pvt. Pyle sits there sucking his thumb.

swirve

SirBaldrick wrote: »

Phage wrote: »

SirBaldrick wrote: »

I'm not sure on this but maybe if you wait for all other players to leave group you won't get penalty?

Nope. They can all leave, and you get left alone with a 15 minute penalty parting gift.

Damn. Then this should at least be fixed.

This is what happened... they didnt check a 600+ CP just joined em lol... i would have solod it 4 them if needed.

Arandear

Can't agree more with this post, I joined a few groups today where they disbanded shortly after (Bad BO [Body Odor]) on my part, but being punished with wait penalties sucks!

PlagueSD

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

If I remember correctly, the idea behind the penalty was to prevent people getting into the same party the just left/were kicked from. I would like some change, yes:

1. Dungeons should have rules to allow entrance only to people meeting conditions . It makes no sense my random is vFH if Im CP10. Really, just a waste of four people's time. Similarly, if I still haven't cleared Fungal Grotto, don't send me to Tempest Island. Or to a "2" dungeons, which have stronger mechanics and dps checks until I cleared all "1" in veteran.
2. Instead of a blind dungeon, you are presented with a list of three random dungeons. You can see the three dungeons. You decide where you go.
3. Random dungeons provide XP and some nice gift, based on their objective difficulty. Completing vWGT should have a better reward that completing FG1.
4. You only have one shot. And N deaths. If you fail no gift for you today. Bonus gifts if you have a 7-15-30 days streak of success.
5. Rewards should only be provided to people playing veterans. This would prevent lazy 690s infesting nornmal dungeons.
6. You won't be grouped with people you blacklist. Blacklisting being different than PSN.
7. PUGs only. Lets stop OP groups burning everything down in seconds and promote interacting with human beings!

Just a couple of ideas.

#1 - This is already in game as of the last patch: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/376895/pc-mac-patch-notes-v3-2-5-clockwork-city#latest
Adjusted the minimum level for the following Normal Difficulty dungeons to Level 45 for the purposes of using the Dungeon Finder:

• Banished Cells 2
• Bloodroot Forge
• City of Ash 2
• Cradle of Shadows
• Crypt of Hearts 2
• Darkshade Caverns 2
• Elden Hollow 2
• Falkreath Hold
• Fungal Grotto 2
• Imperial City Prison
• Ruins of Mazzatun
• Spindleclutch 2
• Wayrest Sewers 2
• White-Gold Tower

Adjusted the minimum level for the following Veteran Difficulty dungeons to CP160 for the purposes of using the Dungeon Finder:

• Veteran Bloodroot Forge
• Veteran City of Ash 2
• Veteran Cradle of Shadows
• Veteran Crypt of Hearts 2
• Veteran Falkreath Hold
• Veteran Imperial City Prison
• Veteran Ruins of Mazzatun
• Veteran White-Gold Tower

#5 won't happen. I'll farm gear on a normal dungeon because I can run it in 10 mins on my CP900 character. Only reason I'll run vet is for monster helm.

#6 on PC, when you ignore someone, you automatically blacklist them. I use this specifically for that reason.

zaria

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

If I remember correctly, the idea behind the penalty was to prevent people getting into the same party the just left/were kicked from. I would like some change, yes:

• Dungeons should have rules to allow entrance only to people meeting conditions . It makes no sense my random is vFH if Im CP10. Really, just a waste of four people's time. Similarly, if I still haven't cleared Fungal Grotto, don't send me to Tempest Island. Or to a "2" dungeons, which have stronger mechanics and dps checks until I cleared all "1" in veteran.
• Instead of a blind dungeon, you are presented with a list of three random dungeons. You can see the three dungeons. You decide where you go.
• Random dungeons provide XP and some nice gift, based on their objective difficulty. Completing vWGT should have a better reward that completing FG1.
• You only have one shot. And N deaths. If you fail no gift for you today. Bonus gifts if you have a 7-15-30 days streak of success.
• Rewards should only be provided to people playing veterans. This would prevent lazy 690s infesting nornmal dungeons.
• You won't be grouped with people you blacklist. Blacklisting being different than PSN.
• PUGs only. Lets stop OP groups burning everything down in seconds and promote interacting with human beings!

Just a couple of ideas.

Some of this has been implemented with the level requirements. you don't get vet dlc, also don't do random vet if you can not do almost all of them in a pug, not counting pugs who should learn to play before doing normal dungeons
Perfectly game should look at your dungeon achievements and undaunted level before placing you if enough players in queue, this might give a few minutes queue time extra. Note that this could change the can do almost all vet dungeon requirement.
Tires in battleground is more important however.

Purpose of random dungeon is to provide filler slots to complete groups, you see how often you get pledge dungeons as random as lots do them. Ok with better rewards for vet and hard dungeons, but as an bonus not so people hunt them.