this is what eso is truning into

Vhozek

There is NOTHING in this game that's pay 2 win and new zones such as Morrowind and DLC zones could be justified by telling you it took um... what's that thing called? WORK to do them?

starkerealm

Arsenex wrote: »

ZoS is master of making this game not look like pay to win.

Let me explain how I look at it.
I agree with y'all that cosmetic is not and will never be pay to win, crown crates will never be pay to win. but the DLC's offer a lot Pay to Play to Win.

so for the normal players this has no influence at all but for the player who want's to play competitive, ESO is Pay to win.
Gonna list up stuff that competitive trial players are using. I know there is a lot of substitute, but some stuff can't be substitute. if you take 2 players or the same, and one of them not using DLC gear and the other is, there will be slightly better difference in DLC stuff.

Alkosh - Thief guild (DLC)
Moondancer - Theif Guild (DLC)
Perfected Weapons - Clockwork city (DLC)
Maelstrom Weapons - Orsinium (DLC)
Clockwork citrus fillet (food) - Clockwork city (DLC)
Spell Power Cure - Imperial City (DLC)

There are probably more out there that I don't know about. I also know that you can use Aether instead of moondancer with almost no difference.

DLC stuff a lot use but can be bought without DLC

Julianos - Crafting - Orsinium (DLC)
Clockwork citrus fillet (food) - Clockwork city (DLC)
Shacklebreaker - Crafting - Morrowind (DLC) pvp

Okay, I think I missed something... where exactly do I pay to get perfect traited SPC pieces? I mean, I've been grinding that ****ing thing for two and a half years (intermittently)...

ValkynSketha

The game is not pay 2 win yet, however it is a pay for conveniance while getting a 1 gold as a in-game reward.

Gprime31

Wait the beard i just bought won't make me emp??? What the?

MagnusBlackmane

At it's core ESO is meant to bring in profit for Zeni and co. As long as the content fits between "all right" and "very good" I don't mind paying from time to time to unlock something that catches my interest, p2p is not same as p2w. If you want a FREE game in this day and age, go play tic-tac-toe in the dirt drawing with a stick.

Arsenex

starkerealm wrote: »

Arsenex wrote: »

ZoS is master of making this game not look like pay to win.

Let me explain how I look at it.
I agree with y'all that cosmetic is not and will never be pay to win, crown crates will never be pay to win. but the DLC's offer a lot Pay to Play to Win.

so for the normal players this has no influence at all but for the player who want's to play competitive, ESO is Pay to win.
Gonna list up stuff that competitive trial players are using. I know there is a lot of substitute, but some stuff can't be substitute. if you take 2 players or the same, and one of them not using DLC gear and the other is, there will be slightly better difference in DLC stuff.

Alkosh - Thief guild (DLC)
Moondancer - Theif Guild (DLC)
Perfected Weapons - Clockwork city (DLC)
Maelstrom Weapons - Orsinium (DLC)
Clockwork citrus fillet (food) - Clockwork city (DLC)
Spell Power Cure - Imperial City (DLC)

There are probably more out there that I don't know about. I also know that you can use Aether instead of moondancer with almost no difference.

DLC stuff a lot use but can be bought without DLC

Julianos - Crafting - Orsinium (DLC)
Clockwork citrus fillet (food) - Clockwork city (DLC)
Shacklebreaker - Crafting - Morrowind (DLC) pvp

Okay, I think I missed something... where exactly do I pay to get perfect traited SPC pieces? I mean, I've been grinding that ****ing thing for two and a half years (intermittently)...

Don't know what you've been doing but last time I checked SPC is white gold tower so if you unlocked that area for free im curious to know how, and change trait is also obtainable with a DLC now..

I love the game, agree with your point that the game is not P2W but open your eyes. they just changed there business model, so if you wanna be competitive you can't compete with someone who own's dlc and your not.

Mefromnorway

i also feel eso turn into be a company try to get so much money from you as possible, and 1 thing i hate most is that its soon no point be max lvl, for evry enemi you meet is same lvl as you, so when you example do a boss fight with a lvl 5 char and mine cp911 (690) its no meaning if you are 5 or 690, i only feel it satart to be pointless to fight for be max lvl, hope you understand what i mean.

Arsenex

Mefromnorway wrote: »

i also feel eso turn into be a company try to get so much money from you as possible, and 1 thing i hate most is that its soon no point be max lvl, for evry enemi you meet is same lvl as you, so when you example do a boss fight with a lvl 5 char and mine cp911 (690) its no meaning if you are 5 or 690, i only feel it satart to be pointless to fight for be max lvl, hope you understand what i mean.

Well that lvl thing is kinda nice IMO. brings new players to the game faster Im glad that this MMO is not about Xp grinding!

starkerealm

Arsenex wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Arsenex wrote: »

ZoS is master of making this game not look like pay to win.

Let me explain how I look at it.
I agree with y'all that cosmetic is not and will never be pay to win, crown crates will never be pay to win. but the DLC's offer a lot Pay to Play to Win.

so for the normal players this has no influence at all but for the player who want's to play competitive, ESO is Pay to win.
Gonna list up stuff that competitive trial players are using. I know there is a lot of substitute, but some stuff can't be substitute. if you take 2 players or the same, and one of them not using DLC gear and the other is, there will be slightly better difference in DLC stuff.

Alkosh - Thief guild (DLC)
Moondancer - Theif Guild (DLC)
Perfected Weapons - Clockwork city (DLC)
Maelstrom Weapons - Orsinium (DLC)
Clockwork citrus fillet (food) - Clockwork city (DLC)
Spell Power Cure - Imperial City (DLC)

There are probably more out there that I don't know about. I also know that you can use Aether instead of moondancer with almost no difference.

DLC stuff a lot use but can be bought without DLC

Julianos - Crafting - Orsinium (DLC)
Clockwork citrus fillet (food) - Clockwork city (DLC)
Shacklebreaker - Crafting - Morrowind (DLC) pvp

Okay, I think I missed something... where exactly do I pay to get perfect traited SPC pieces? I mean, I've been grinding that ****ing thing for two and a half years (intermittently)...

Don't know what you've been doing but last time I checked SPC is white gold tower, and change trait is also obtainable with a DLC now..

I love the game, agree with your point that the game is not P2W but open your eyes. they just changed there business model, so if you wanna be competitive you can't compete with someone who own's dlc and your not.

Instructions unclear: Reenacted Sam Neil from Event Horizon.

Point is, you're paying for the content, not the statistical advantage. P2W would be if you simply bought the gear directly.

There's a wonderful little paradox here. If you're good enough to get Maelstrom or weapons, you don't need Maelstrom weapons to be competitive.

If this stuff was straight up sold, as is, then that would be one thing. But, it's not. Most of the things you just listed are either gated behind difficult content. At that point you need to be able to win before you get shinies from those. This is especially true of Alkosh, which requires you get the jewelry, meaning you need to run MoL on vet. Right... pay to get smeared across the wall and used as a wetnap by the Dro-M'athra.

Arsenex

starkerealm wrote: »

Arsenex wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Arsenex wrote: »

ZoS is master of making this game not look like pay to win.

Let me explain how I look at it.
I agree with y'all that cosmetic is not and will never be pay to win, crown crates will never be pay to win. but the DLC's offer a lot Pay to Play to Win.

so for the normal players this has no influence at all but for the player who want's to play competitive, ESO is Pay to win.
Gonna list up stuff that competitive trial players are using. I know there is a lot of substitute, but some stuff can't be substitute. if you take 2 players or the same, and one of them not using DLC gear and the other is, there will be slightly better difference in DLC stuff.

Alkosh - Thief guild (DLC)
Moondancer - Theif Guild (DLC)
Perfected Weapons - Clockwork city (DLC)
Maelstrom Weapons - Orsinium (DLC)
Clockwork citrus fillet (food) - Clockwork city (DLC)
Spell Power Cure - Imperial City (DLC)

There are probably more out there that I don't know about. I also know that you can use Aether instead of moondancer with almost no difference.

DLC stuff a lot use but can be bought without DLC

Julianos - Crafting - Orsinium (DLC)
Clockwork citrus fillet (food) - Clockwork city (DLC)
Shacklebreaker - Crafting - Morrowind (DLC) pvp

Okay, I think I missed something... where exactly do I pay to get perfect traited SPC pieces? I mean, I've been grinding that ****ing thing for two and a half years (intermittently)...

Don't know what you've been doing but last time I checked SPC is white gold tower, and change trait is also obtainable with a DLC now..

I love the game, agree with your point that the game is not P2W but open your eyes. they just changed there business model, so if you wanna be competitive you can't compete with someone who own's dlc and your not.

Instructions unclear: Reenacted Sam Neil from Event Horizon.

Point is, you're paying for the content, not the statistical advantage. P2W would be if you simply bought the gear directly.

There's a wonderful little paradox here. If you're good enough to get Maelstrom or weapons, you don't need Maelstrom weapons to be competitive.

If this stuff was straight up sold, as is, then that would be one thing. But, it's not. Most of the things you just listed are either gated behind difficult content. At that point you need to be able to win before you get shinies from those. This is especially true of Alkosh, which requires you get the jewelry, meaning you need to run MoL on vet. Right... pay to get smeared across the wall and used as a wetnap by the Dro-M'athra.

yep if you read my first comment is P2P2W = Pay to play to win ... just wait a few years this will be normal term. don't understand you're paradox thing. Maelstrom weps are just better no matter how good you are..

Chickenstein

Are there really any bigger guilds left in this game that do not have most (at least the important) DLC crafting stations and the transmutation station in their "guildhall"? Are non-subscribers disallowed from those guilds? Then how come that craftable sets keep coming up as "P2W"?

The *only* thing that could be argued about is bound trial and MA equipment. But even so, as was said before, I've seen a lot of people with great equipment and poor performance. This is not an automatic win, and it's not that we're talking about huge improvements here like some people suggest.

starkerealm

Arsenex wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Arsenex wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Arsenex wrote: »

ZoS is master of making this game not look like pay to win.

Let me explain how I look at it.
I agree with y'all that cosmetic is not and will never be pay to win, crown crates will never be pay to win. but the DLC's offer a lot Pay to Play to Win.

so for the normal players this has no influence at all but for the player who want's to play competitive, ESO is Pay to win.
Gonna list up stuff that competitive trial players are using. I know there is a lot of substitute, but some stuff can't be substitute. if you take 2 players or the same, and one of them not using DLC gear and the other is, there will be slightly better difference in DLC stuff.

Alkosh - Thief guild (DLC)
Moondancer - Theif Guild (DLC)
Perfected Weapons - Clockwork city (DLC)
Maelstrom Weapons - Orsinium (DLC)
Clockwork citrus fillet (food) - Clockwork city (DLC)
Spell Power Cure - Imperial City (DLC)

There are probably more out there that I don't know about. I also know that you can use Aether instead of moondancer with almost no difference.

DLC stuff a lot use but can be bought without DLC

Julianos - Crafting - Orsinium (DLC)
Clockwork citrus fillet (food) - Clockwork city (DLC)
Shacklebreaker - Crafting - Morrowind (DLC) pvp

Okay, I think I missed something... where exactly do I pay to get perfect traited SPC pieces? I mean, I've been grinding that ****ing thing for two and a half years (intermittently)...

Don't know what you've been doing but last time I checked SPC is white gold tower, and change trait is also obtainable with a DLC now..

I love the game, agree with your point that the game is not P2W but open your eyes. they just changed there business model, so if you wanna be competitive you can't compete with someone who own's dlc and your not.

Instructions unclear: Reenacted Sam Neil from Event Horizon.

Point is, you're paying for the content, not the statistical advantage. P2W would be if you simply bought the gear directly.

There's a wonderful little paradox here. If you're good enough to get Maelstrom or weapons, you don't need Maelstrom weapons to be competitive.

If this stuff was straight up sold, as is, then that would be one thing. But, it's not. Most of the things you just listed are either gated behind difficult content. At that point you need to be able to win before you get shinies from those. This is especially true of Alkosh, which requires you get the jewelry, meaning you need to run MoL on vet. Right... pay to get smeared across the wall and used as a wetnap by the Dro-M'athra.

yep if you read my first comment is P2P2W = Pay to play to win ... just wait a few years this will be normal term. don't understand you're paradox thing. Maelstrom weps are just better no matter how good you are..

You're paying to play. If you can win, then you win. So, if you don't get reductive it's P2P and W2W. Which may sound stupid, because most of the time you don't need to break things apart into such easily digestible chunks.

starkerealm

Chickenstein wrote: »

Are there really any bigger guilds left in this game that do not have most (at least the important) DLC crafting stations and the transmutation station in their "guildhall"? Are non-subscribers disallowed from those guilds? Then how come that craftable sets keep coming up as "P2W"?

The *only* thing that could be argued about is bound trial and MA equipment. But even so, as was said before, I've seen a lot of people with great equipment and poor performance. This is not an automatic win, and it's not that we're talking about huge improvements here like some people suggest.

I don't know. I think one of my trading guilds may not have a guildhall. The other one has every station... and, quite frankly, a terrifying array of other goodies. So, moot point. Even if I let my sub lapse, I could still craft whatever I wanted.

LukosCreyden

Claiming Morrowind is p2w is dumb.

For a start, warden is in no way better than the other classes. The gear obtained in morrowind is an OPTION, not bis. Finally, it is an expansion (called a chapter for reasons), would you prefer that they added nothing of value to it? Just a bunch of quests that reward gold and nothing else? If you want ESO to die, then removing anything of value from future content is one way to do it.

As for the crown store, costumes and mounts are not p2w, xp scrolls are not pay to win either as you pretty much have to be grinding to gain benefit from them anyway. The consumables are sub par too, more like "Babbies first potion" than actual endgame items.

The only thing that can even be considered is possibly mount upgrades, but all they really offer is convenience.

So it is more "p2convenience" than p2w. When they add trials weapons and yellow tempers to the crown store, that is when you can complain.

seaef

Chickenstein wrote: »

Are there really any bigger guilds left in this game that do not have most (at least the important) DLC crafting stations and the transmutation station in their "guildhall"? Are non-subscribers disallowed from those guilds? Then how come that craftable sets keep coming up as "P2W"?

The *only* thing that could be argued about is bound trial and MA equipment. But even so, as was said before, I've seen a lot of people with great equipment and poor performance. This is not an automatic win, and it's not that we're talking about huge improvements here like some people suggest.

What some players don't seem to understand is there is a reason why sets give you different buffs at 2-5 pieces. You can combine multiple sets to tailor-make something perfect for your build and in many cases, better than most full sets.

Most will never do that because it requires effort.

Mannix1958

Arsenex wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Arsenex wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Arsenex wrote: »

ZoS is master of making this game not look like pay to win.

Let me explain how I look at it.
I agree with y'all that cosmetic is not and will never be pay to win, crown crates will never be pay to win. but the DLC's offer a lot Pay to Play to Win.

so for the normal players this has no influence at all but for the player who want's to play competitive, ESO is Pay to win.
Gonna list up stuff that competitive trial players are using. I know there is a lot of substitute, but some stuff can't be substitute. if you take 2 players or the same, and one of them not using DLC gear and the other is, there will be slightly better difference in DLC stuff.

Alkosh - Thief guild (DLC)
Moondancer - Theif Guild (DLC)
Perfected Weapons - Clockwork city (DLC)
Maelstrom Weapons - Orsinium (DLC)
Clockwork citrus fillet (food) - Clockwork city (DLC)
Spell Power Cure - Imperial City (DLC)

There are probably more out there that I don't know about. I also know that you can use Aether instead of moondancer with almost no difference.

DLC stuff a lot use but can be bought without DLC

Julianos - Crafting - Orsinium (DLC)
Clockwork citrus fillet (food) - Clockwork city (DLC)
Shacklebreaker - Crafting - Morrowind (DLC) pvp

Okay, I think I missed something... where exactly do I pay to get perfect traited SPC pieces? I mean, I've been grinding that ****ing thing for two and a half years (intermittently)...

Don't know what you've been doing but last time I checked SPC is white gold tower, and change trait is also obtainable with a DLC now..

I love the game, agree with your point that the game is not P2W but open your eyes. they just changed there business model, so if you wanna be competitive you can't compete with someone who own's dlc and your not.

Instructions unclear: Reenacted Sam Neil from Event Horizon.

Point is, you're paying for the content, not the statistical advantage. P2W would be if you simply bought the gear directly.

There's a wonderful little paradox here. If you're good enough to get Maelstrom or weapons, you don't need Maelstrom weapons to be competitive.

If this stuff was straight up sold, as is, then that would be one thing. But, it's not. Most of the things you just listed are either gated behind difficult content. At that point you need to be able to win before you get shinies from those. This is especially true of Alkosh, which requires you get the jewelry, meaning you need to run MoL on vet. Right... pay to get smeared across the wall and used as a wetnap by the Dro-M'athra.

yep if you read my first comment is P2P2W = Pay to play to win ... just wait a few years this will be normal term. don't understand you're paradox thing. Maelstrom weps are just better no matter how good you are..

Here's a term that's been around even before MMOs and business models -> Freeloader : Someone who wants something for nothing.

starkerealm

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Claiming Morrowind is p2w is dumb.

Yeah, the most credit I can give someone on that front is the... what? 10 skill points buried in there. Which would probably carry a lot more weight if there weren't 300+ skill points in the base game.

Talon_Draconis

eso charges for everything just like the vid

Wreuntzylla

Talon_Draconis wrote: »

deflorate wrote: »

Talon_Draconis wrote: »

Ohtimbar wrote: »

Since when are cosmetics & consumables pay to win? Seems like much ado about nothing to me.

can we say morrowind...
Crates
xp scrolls
etc

Morrowind is content and not pay to win. Wardens aren't some OP BiS class, they are equal.

Crates aren't pay to win, they are cosmetic.

XP scrolls aren't pay to win either. Even if you leveled obscenely fast they don't give you gear or knowledge on how to play. Congrats on being a level 50 "healer/dps/tank" all-in-one with random shitter gear.

I bet you think skins in PoE are pay to win too right?

although I have not played POE much so far I have not encountered any content that you have to pay for
Also Neverwinter nights everything can be accessed in game you do not have to pay for any content
ESO was the same with a sub you could get everything but since morrowind more and more stuff you have to pay cash for like the vid you have to pay to access areas bank space repairs xp etc I don't mind paying for stuff if the game is free or paying a sub to get everything but when they start charging for everything and expect you to pay for the game too it's getting ridiculous

BZZZZZT! Wrong answer!

Neverwinter is the reason I will never play another P2W game. Finding out that you are vapor food in BGs because you don't have purchasable gems..... Yeah.

starkerealm

Talon_Draconis wrote: »

eso charges for everything just like the vid

No.

I mean, there are games that will nickle and dime you like that. Hell, I've played MMOs where gear upgrades required (or heavily incentivized) you to spend money to improve your items.

In fact, one of the things that originally caught my attention about ESO was that upgrading to gold could be done with a 100% success rate, without resorting to ridiculously terrible dice rolls.

I've played MMOs that will gleefully clog up your inventory slots with lucky bags (think the crates) that drop off enemies. Depriving you of actual drops, while pushing you towards spending cash for keys to unlock them.

I've played an MMO that, literally, charges you a fee to level up after a certain point. (The exact amount is negotiable, but short of event grinding, you're going to cough up some cash.)

I've played MMOs that gated statistically superior classes behind their lucky bags, and I've even played a game where gear progression was gated behind their lucky bags.

I've played MMOs, where crafting requires a grind currency that will take weeks to accumulate, or you can pay for with real money.

With all of this in mind, no, ESO does not charge for much. You need to pay for new content, but that's hardly the same as being told that, "no, if you want to pick your next ship class, you need to cough up at least 30 bucks."

starkerealm

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Talon_Draconis wrote: »

deflorate wrote: »

Talon_Draconis wrote: »

Ohtimbar wrote: »

Since when are cosmetics & consumables pay to win? Seems like much ado about nothing to me.

can we say morrowind...
Crates
xp scrolls
etc

Morrowind is content and not pay to win. Wardens aren't some OP BiS class, they are equal.

Crates aren't pay to win, they are cosmetic.

XP scrolls aren't pay to win either. Even if you leveled obscenely fast they don't give you gear or knowledge on how to play. Congrats on being a level 50 "healer/dps/tank" all-in-one with random shitter gear.

I bet you think skins in PoE are pay to win too right?

although I have not played POE much so far I have not encountered any content that you have to pay for
Also Neverwinter nights everything can be accessed in game you do not have to pay for any content
ESO was the same with a sub you could get everything but since morrowind more and more stuff you have to pay cash for like the vid you have to pay to access areas bank space repairs xp etc I don't mind paying for stuff if the game is free or paying a sub to get everything but when they start charging for everything and expect you to pay for the game too it's getting ridiculous

BZZZZZT! Wrong answer!

Neverwinter is the reason I will never play another P2W game. Finding out that you are vapor food in BGs because you don't have purchasable gems..... Yeah.

Cryptic's post Perfect World stuff is tragically pay to win.

I mean, it is legitimately sad. I really loved Star Trek Online. Ship combat was arcade focused. A little slow, but I flew cruisers (tank/healers) primarily. Even preoverhaul, I loved ground combat. It had a third person shooter setup. Just, overall, really engaging.

Then they introduced Tier 6 ships. The introduced tier x.5 ships for lower levels, which were flat out better than their equivalent ships. I mean, it was one thing when they were selling ships with different, equivalent, bridge configurations, like the T5 Excelsior. Yes it had an extra Tac seat, but lost the Engineering Seat from an Assault Cruiser. It was also less of an issue with stuff like the T1.5 or T2.5 because you would level out of it eventually.

So far, so good. But, once you got to the Tier 6 stuff, that was, straight up, "pay us, or we gimp your characters."

And, of course, you see this exact argument. "It's not P2W because you can, potentially, grind up anything via Dilithium (astral diamonds in NW.)" At the simplest level this is true, but it permits them to gate all kinds of straight upgrades behind a pay wall, then set the threshold to the point that it's entirely unreasonable to grind that stuff.

MasterSpatula

There's only one way to make these things go away, and you already know what it is. But there's simply too many fools out there for that strategy to work. There'll always be someone willing to pay for this garbage who, and as long as there are fools, there will always be people who take advantage of them.

You could always take your money exclusively to people who vow never to do such a thing. You know, like ZOS claimed in 2014.

KRBMMO

ESO isn't pay to win.

It's pay to chase the dragon.

Greifenherz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ffqre27h_0c

Edit: Oh wait, that is 'actual' gambling you have to be adult for to participate and that is regulated by laws...nevermind~

KingYogi415

If you want to see real pay to win check out fortnite.