this is what eso is truning into

JinMori

Talon_Draconis wrote: »

https://www.facebook.com/vivaladirtleague/videos/1468574689906897/?hc_ref=ARQwFNAfeAoUZS1AinA7rUVSKjjH2t3ZLmqvUFKoBKeWP8tXV981DO_VhtYag8NI3k4&pnref=story

No, it's not pay to win.

It's just turning players into gambling addicted people with all these loot crates.

I really hope that a law passes to make these kind of things considered as gambling, because they are.

EA and company are getting greedier and greedier, and are screwing over all the industry with this stupid garbage.

I can excuse eso bit more, because it's an mmo, and it has some server costs, but things like battlefront etc, are complete garbage, and i won;t be buying them for this exact reason.

Talon_Draconis

kyle.wilson wrote: »

Gorilla wrote: »

monktoasty wrote: »

Pay to win cam be interpreted different ways. In traditional mmorpgs you win rewards by doing quests. Here..you pay for them..pay to win items.

For MMOs it has a common use meaning. That is P2W means a situation where spending real dollars gives you access to anything that you can't get IG, and which gives you a material competitive advantage.

Like or dislike their commercial model, it is not P2W...yet.

But the game definitely has become a pay for convenience now.
Between mount upgrades and unrestricted research scrolls (no limits on usage), they drastically cut the time a wealthy new player needs to max these out. Some could see this as pay to win in comparison with new players.

All content should be free and unlocked when you buy the game
I would not complain if the game was free with all content unlockable in game or pay for connivance
Or even a sub base game as long as the dlc is free like they promised but broke with morrowind

NewBlacksmurf

Funny. It does feel thatay but not as extreme

Talon_Draconis

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Funny. It does feel thatay but not as extreme

Of coarse the vid the vid execrates it's meant to be funny but it does show what is happening to eso and other mmos

Narvuntien

kyle.wilson wrote: »

Gorilla wrote: »

monktoasty wrote: »

Pay to win cam be interpreted different ways. In traditional mmorpgs you win rewards by doing quests. Here..you pay for them..pay to win items.

For MMOs it has a common use meaning. That is P2W means a situation where spending real dollars gives you access to anything that you can't get IG, and which gives you a material competitive advantage.

Like or dislike their commercial model, it is not P2W...yet.

But the game definitely has become a pay for convenience now.
Between mount upgrades and unrestricted research scrolls (no limits on usage), they drastically cut the time a wealthy new player needs to max these out. Some could see this as pay to win in comparison with new players.

Great! that is exactly how mircotransactions should be used. You have poorer (normally younger) players who have plenty of time and no money. Then you have wealther players who have work to do and responsibilities and not enough time to play. They can send money to keep up.

If you are a busy poor person, man it sucks, but maybe an MMO really isn't for you, play a game type that can be played in short bursts that best fit with your schedule, MMOs are designed to be time sinks. Or alternatively simiply be happy with a slower pace of progression.

It is important that you don't devalue actual game time, because that alienates players and basically stops people from even playing the game (why play when you can pay). For now I don't see an issue with pay for convience. If I have time but not money I have time to spend on inventory management thats not something someone only has an hour or so to play a day (or perhaps just on the weekend) wants to have to deal with.

Time is money, there is an economy of time resources that can be equated with money resources.

Ch4mpTW

OP is right. ESO is actually P2W to a degree...

For example, if you don’t have the Orsinium DLC, you’re missing out on Maelstrom Weapons. Just how useful are Maelstrom Weapons? Well, for a DD character — it’s quite a noticeable difference both magicka-wise and stamina-wise in not using a Maelstrom Weapon. Maelstrom’s Bow and Maelstrom’s Lightning Staff are absolute game changers, and really boost your DPS by substantial amounts.

Another example would be The Thieves Guild DLC. Or which ever DLC it was that added MoL. While Moondancer is a great set and all for magicka damage dealer, what really makes this place P2W is in regards to tanks for the most part. Alkosh is a phenomenal 5pcs. set, that when combined with something like the 5pcs. Ebon, can lead to highly effective group utility. Alkosh really is that big of a deal. Having a tank without Alkosh isn’t necessarily bad, but having 1 with it can definitely show day and night differences in group performance (to a degree).

I could go on and on, but I think for the most part that my point has gotten through. While the forms of additional content being added certainly don’t make certain sets mandatory, they definitely make the content more highly sought after (if you’re into min-maxing). It is true that you can be a highly effective player who performs well without the use of DLC-added boosts, but it’s pretty clear that it is required to have said boosts, if you want to take your abilities and performance to the next level.

Attackfrog

This game isn't a charity. If we want content and updates, that money has to come from somewhere.

Jade1986

Skwor wrote: »

This is getting tiresome. ESO is nothing like pay to win. What I see is a bunch of cry babies whining becuase they can’t some digital cosmetics and want to take it away from people who put the effort into being successful enough to afford silly things.

Warden and imperial say hello. Take off the blinders.

Albeit warden isnt OP in all aspects, but it is still a all around class behind a pay wall.

Mureel

kyle.wilson wrote: »

Gorilla wrote: »

monktoasty wrote: »

Pay to win cam be interpreted different ways. In traditional mmorpgs you win rewards by doing quests. Here..you pay for them..pay to win items.

For MMOs it has a common use meaning. That is P2W means a situation where spending real dollars gives you access to anything that you can't get IG, and which gives you a material competitive advantage.

Like or dislike their commercial model, it is not P2W...yet.

But the game definitely has become a pay for convenience now.
Between mount upgrades and unrestricted research scrolls (no limits on usage), they drastically cut the time a wealthy new player needs to max these out. Some could see this as pay to win in comparison with new players.

Omg so someone is gonna win because their horse speed is maxed? Lol! As for xp scrolls, same crap available in game for gold.

I mean with all the cheapskates who don’t use a sub, ask in zone for non dlc pledges - how do you expect them to even keep running?

They’re here to make a profit, when the profit goes, the game goes.

Please just stop the madness already.

Chickenstein

Jade1986 wrote: »

Albeit warden isnt OP in all aspects, but it is still a all around class behind a pay wall.

By that definition, ANY game you pay for is behind a pay wall. I would agree to a certain extent if it would be OP, but it seriously isn't.

Although critical of the crates, I still refuse to call this P2W (also, yet). People should check out "real" P2W games to feel the difference. The only valid argument really would be the MA weapons someone mentioned here, but really ... they are not THAT game-changing, but yeah, that would be a valid argument.

Azurya

well that is not true

you can buy stuff here that is pure cosmetic or gives you access to an dlc, which you choose, but certainly not need
costumes, your choice, just like mounts and all other crap from CS

if you choose to pay for useless crap, it is still your choice

BUT, you can´t buy anything which gives you any advantage IN the game
you can only buy cosmetics, and
THAT is your CHOICE

SickDuck

Talon_Draconis wrote: »

Ohtimbar wrote: »

Since when are cosmetics & consumables pay to win? Seems like much ado about nothing to me.

can we say morrowind...
Crates
xp scrolls
etc

Out of these only Morrowind that would count. You don’t need crates and xp scrolls can be crafted in game - not that they are a necessity though. Even Morrowind could be passed if you are happy to play core content.

Definitely you can blow loads of money in ESO but it is all shiny nice to haves. The only cost to get some practical advantage is of ESO+.

Slack

You know nothing!
Even achievements are P2W!

Turelus

Talon_Draconis wrote: »

Ohtimbar wrote: »

Since when are cosmetics & consumables pay to win? Seems like much ado about nothing to me.

can we say morrowind...
Crates
xp scrolls
etc

In this case it's been pay to win since launch.
Rings of Mara
Imperial Race

So it's not what ESO is turning into, it's what it's always been and what you decided to join.

Chilly-McFreeze

This is what eso community is turning into: "Mimimi, I have to pay for DLCs/Subs and Chapters. Mimimi, cosmetic items are p2w. Mimimi, xp scrolls so OP. I payed 10 bucks for this game, I want everything from now till the end of ESO for free."

Seriously, get your *** together. XP buffs and costumes are not p2w, DLC content of course has it's mertis and have to be payed. Subscriptions need to have an incentive.

Altaire

Narvuntien wrote: »

Base game $20, the 4 DLC pack $20, Morrowind $20.
$60 game.

You miss out on 4 dungeons and clockwork city.

Sure you have to wait until its on sale.. but there is plenty of content to keep you busy until a sale shows up.

It really is fine. I bought crowns only for the DLC pack.

Maelstrom arena is the closest thing to pay to win and really only for hitting you PVE DPS high highs. Most of the content is do able without it, if you are good (good enough to do maelstrom). To transmute stuff all you need to do is join a good (trade)guild and someone will have a station in thier house. That is what I did. The Asylum weapons are they even good? Warden is pretty strong in PVP but terrible in PvE, but is that any different to other classes?

People need to be payed for thier art, I know you want free stuff, I want free stuff, I will squeeze every bit of value out of a game if you let me.

Base game is about 5$ us

starkerealm

Okay. here's the thing: Pay-to-Win is exactly that. You pay, you get something that gives you a direct advantage, and makes it easier (or possible) to win.

When they were first implemented, the XP scrolls were P2W. They're not now. Now, if you're sitting there, scratching your head, let's unpack this a bit.

Normally, XP accelerators aren't P2W. You'll get to the cap faster, but ultimately, you can't become more powerful than another player, using them. This is true of ESO now. You can buy accelerators, but they won't push you past CR690, and once you're there that's it.

However, when the scrolls were first implemented, CP was unlimited. (There was a theoretical cap at 3600, but it was unreasonable to expect that you'd ever get there normally.) So, if you used XP scrolls you would gain advantage faster on an unlimited spectrum and be more powerful than a player who had spent comparable time, but hadn't spent the money.

Imperials are debatable. They're strong, but it's only P2W if they're distinctly more powerful than other, free, races. The argument can certainly be made that they're the strongest tank race, but that's not a certainty.

Mounts and mount lessons are not P2W, simply because you can obtain horses with gold, and you can fully upgrade them with gold. You're paying to accelerate the process, but you don't end up more powerful as a result.

Content is not P2W, including things like the Maelstrom weapons. Okay this is more complicated, and it might show why XP accelerators are an edge case to begin with. If you're paying for new stuff to do, that is what you're paying for. You could be reductive and say, "yeah, but, you have to pay or you can't win at Maelstrom," which is kinda true, but it would be more accurate to describe this stuff as pay-to-play. You get access to this stuff, earn your rewards, and then get something shiny and powerful as a result. The catch is, you're primarily paying for more things to do. If Maelstrom was simply a shopping mall, where you walk in, pick the weapon you want, pay some crowns, and walk out with it, that would be P2W. But, it's not. It's some brutally difficult content, at the end of which you're granted some fantastic rewards.

Alkosh is the same way, if not arguably more so. You need a team of 12 players, you need to run it multiple times. Your team needs to be able to clear vMoL. Yeah, that's not pay to win. It's a different gauntlet, and the result is you get a DPS set that is vitally important for tanks. And, yes, Alkosh is supposed to be a DPS set, not how the community uses it, but here we are.

The Warden is not P2W. I mean, it could be. Paywalling vastly superior classes can create a P2W scenario. You can see this in F2P MMOs like Neverwinter all the time. "Here's a class that is effectively the same as this other, free, class, but does everything better." And, to be fair, that was the fear with the Warden. It's not what we got. The Warden is a functional class, it actually underperforms as a DPS class, but, it exists in rough parity for the other classes. Honestly, ESO's class balance has never been exceptional, so the fears were justified, but this one isn't a problem.

The research scrolls are not P2W. Now, to be fair, the system they bypass is a mess, and has always been, kinda, a mess. At the end, you max out your research at 9 traits. This will take awhile. Somewhere around a year, as I recall. The scrolls can shave days off of that. If you really want to spend close to a grand to instantly get a 9 trait crafter... sure, knock yourself out. But, you're not going to end up more powerful than an existing nine trait crafter. In fact, you'll probably still be less powerful, simply because you won't have the corresponding stockpile of trait stones. You also won't have an advantage over another player who got their Hunding's, Torag's, or Julianos from another crafter. If crafted sets were BoP, or if 9 trait crafters didn't already exist in the community, then this would be a much more valid concern. However, it does end up on the convenience end.

Vampire bites are kinda iffy. Thing about these is, you are buying power. As in, straight up, spend your 10 bucks, get access to a skill line that is, in fact, a direct upgrade. And, it's kinda not pay to win, because those systems are available in game. You can still get bites naturally, and you can receive bites from other players. So, even though it is directly selling power, it is also doing so in order to make the game more convenient. Also, honestly, don't pay for bites from the Crown Store, it's not worth it.

Same discussion on Werewolves, except, you know, that's less of a must have now than it was two years ago.

Now, the crafted sets in DLC zones... again, this is iffy, except it goes back to the part where you can get Julianos without setting foot in Wrothgar. You just need to find a crafter.

Crown consumables are not P2W. The short answer is that these are all equivalent to normal consumables found outside in the game normally. So you've got your potions, poisons, and foods, but you can craft those. They won't level with you the way crown variants will, but they don't get more powerful than your crafted options. Crown repair kits are basically paying to recover from defeat.

Also, the exclusive treasure maps are terrible. The ones that came with the explorer packs? Yeah, those are straight up garbage. You get two blue items, a green item and a small cache of gold. These don't even have the normal drop lists for treasure maps and chests in those zones. You can't get malachite fragments, set pieces, or paintings. These are just a few leveled items. There is nothing special about them. I'm sure if you use them while leveling up your first character, you'll feel like you found some cool stuff, but if you're at cap, it's just disappointing.

Any Race Any Alliance? Not really. There might have been an argument for it at launch. Particularly being able to take races like the Bosmer or Khajiit, and using them against Dominion players. But, this one has always been more of an option to choose your content, rather than an P2W option.

So, is ESO P2W? No. If something with actual gameplay value went into the crates, that could happen very quickly.

Turelus

@starkerealm I think you forgot the mic drop gif at the end.

sudaki_eso

I agree with @starkerealm, not quote him to keep this short. I dont think eso is p2w. What i like about OP's post is that i found a new youtube channel, those guys are great

Vimora

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

Vimora wrote: »

Bbsample197 wrote: »

go and play asian mmos, your view of P2W items will change drastically

GW2 and BDO are full-on p2w. Compared to those ESO has no p2w in it.

Gw2 is not P2w really, but Pay to save time, cause its so easy to get the max tier gear in that game its all just cosmetics after that

Not sure what reason there is to defend a game where you just buy in-game gold for real money via the in-game store and then you buy everything from the auction house immediately. You can max whole crafting professions immediately. It also gives you character XP, so you level all the way up by the crafting stations. At least that's how it was when I played a while ago.

AzraelKrieg

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Some random, nonsensical tripe

Talon_Draconis

don't really call ESO P2W it's more like the vid it's more like if you want to do anything you have to pay
Want to vist a city get items quests etc you have pay either a sub or crowns
Have to fix your weapons do banking etc pay for assistant or have to go back to town
Run out of very limited bag space full of junk mats that you need to craft have to sub
Want morrwind content have to pay cash for that

In the beginning ESO was great with a sub and one tam you could go anywhere do anything all dlc was included and all future dlc would be included
With a generous crown allowance you could buy all the cosmetics etc
Then they started raising prices to ridiculous amounts
Then came ind had to pay cash for that to get access to battlegrounds and unfinished content
Just like the vid
Now they have crates just like the vid where youi can get a chance to get some interesting stuff but have to pay crowns to gamble
Have to pay for scrolls etc just like the vid

Next they will start counting your step and have to buy crowns for waypoints or movement allownce I see it comming

MjolnirVilkas

While the video is funny you gotta accept that paying for an expansion pack or DLC has been a norm since like...forever. I have no problem paying for quality content and if I deem content not good enough, I simply avoid purchasing it.


As far a loot boxes go, I hate those generally. But in ESO they're really just cosmetic and I don't really see the problem with them. If you want to buy them, go nuts. If you think they're the worst thing ever, ignore them completely.

Still I hate loot boxes because they're becoming the norm in gaming in general and in other games they don't provide just cosmetics, but actual gameplay advantages.

There are things about Zenimax and the way they sometimes treat costumers/player that I despise, but honestly people complain too much. I'll never forget how easily they dropped a whole lot of players last year when they canceled the old DX support. And it was a *** move. I also despise subs, it's sadly a deal breaker for me. I'll buy EP, chapters, DLCs but mandatory subscription I won't do. Optional is cool, that way I can control when and why and how long I want the benefits of ESO+, but that's it.

seaef

Mureel wrote: »

kyle.wilson wrote: »

Gorilla wrote: »

monktoasty wrote: »

Pay to win cam be interpreted different ways. In traditional mmorpgs you win rewards by doing quests. Here..you pay for them..pay to win items.

For MMOs it has a common use meaning. That is P2W means a situation where spending real dollars gives you access to anything that you can't get IG, and which gives you a material competitive advantage.

Like or dislike their commercial model, it is not P2W...yet.

But the game definitely has become a pay for convenience now.
Between mount upgrades and unrestricted research scrolls (no limits on usage), they drastically cut the time a wealthy new player needs to max these out. Some could see this as pay to win in comparison with new players.

Omg so someone is gonna win because their horse speed is maxed? Lol! As for xp scrolls, same crap available in game for gold.

I mean with all the cheapskates who don’t use a sub, ask in zone for non dlc pledges - how do you expect them to even keep running?

They’re here to make a profit, when the profit goes, the game goes.

Please just stop the madness already.

It's the curse of the entitled. They always think everything should be free for them because they exist and the they're special.

Yeah, they're "special" all right.

Tommy_The_Gun

Talon_Draconis wrote: »

https://www.facebook.com/vivaladirtleague/videos/1468574689906897/?hc_ref=ARQwFNAfeAoUZS1AinA7rUVSKjjH2t3ZLmqvUFKoBKeWP8tXV981DO_VhtYag8NI3k4&pnref=story

So true... but please... don't give them ideas....

It seems you have run out of steps...
I laughed so hard at that point - but the sad part is that it is going to be true at some point

purple-magicb16_ESO

Talon_Draconis wrote: »

https://www.facebook.com/vivaladirtleague/videos/1468574689906897/?hc_ref=ARQwFNAfeAoUZS1AinA7rUVSKjjH2t3ZLmqvUFKoBKeWP8tXV981DO_VhtYag8NI3k4&pnref=story

I love this!! Thanks for the best laugh I've ever had on these forums! It's so true, but the $2.49 is not nearly accurate enough, more like $15.00 for the upgrade after you bought the full game. And 5000 crystals is nothing in ESO. Give these guys a Webby.

Thanks for posting.

Cloudless

Know what else is ESO turning into?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vyw6n1EKlww

Master Angler OP, please nerf.

Arsenex

ZoS is master of making this game not look like pay to win.

Let me explain how I look at it.
I agree with y'all that cosmetic is not and will never be pay to win, crown crates will never be pay to win. but the DLC's offer a lot Pay to Play to Win.

so for the normal players this has no influence at all but for the player who want's to play competitive, ESO is Pay to win.
Gonna list up stuff that competitive trial players are using. I know there is a lot of substitute, but some stuff can't be substitute. if you take 2 players or the same, and one of them not using DLC gear and the other is, there will be slightly better difference in DLC stuff.

Alkosh - Thief guild (DLC)
Moondancer - Theif Guild (DLC)
Perfected Weapons - Clockwork city (DLC)
Maelstrom Weapons - Orsinium (DLC)
Clockwork citrus fillet (food) - Clockwork city (DLC)
Spell Power Cure - Imperial City (DLC)

There are probably more out there that I don't know about. I also know that you can use Aether instead of moondancer with almost no difference.

DLC stuff a lot use but can be bought without DLC

Julianos - Crafting - Orsinium (DLC)
Clockwork citrus fillet (food) - Clockwork city (DLC)
Shacklebreaker - Crafting - Morrowind (DLC) pvp

pdebie64b16_ESO

Talon_Draconis wrote: »

kyle.wilson wrote: »

Gorilla wrote: »

monktoasty wrote: »

Pay to win cam be interpreted different ways. In traditional mmorpgs you win rewards by doing quests. Here..you pay for them..pay to win items.

For MMOs it has a common use meaning. That is P2W means a situation where spending real dollars gives you access to anything that you can't get IG, and which gives you a material competitive advantage.

Like or dislike their commercial model, it is not P2W...yet.

But the game definitely has become a pay for convenience now.
Between mount upgrades and unrestricted research scrolls (no limits on usage), they drastically cut the time a wealthy new player needs to max these out. Some could see this as pay to win in comparison with new players.

All content should be free and unlocked when you buy the game
I would not complain if the game was free with all content unlockable in game or pay for connivance
Or even a sub base game as long as the dlc is free like they promised but broke with morrowind

Thats not the way it works, its like buying a new car and demanding free gasoline as long you use the car, game companies dont bring out games and dlc's for your pleassure only, they need to make some income to.

starkerealm

pdebie64b16_ESO wrote: »

Talon_Draconis wrote: »

kyle.wilson wrote: »

Gorilla wrote: »

monktoasty wrote: »

Pay to win cam be interpreted different ways. In traditional mmorpgs you win rewards by doing quests. Here..you pay for them..pay to win items.

For MMOs it has a common use meaning. That is P2W means a situation where spending real dollars gives you access to anything that you can't get IG, and which gives you a material competitive advantage.

Like or dislike their commercial model, it is not P2W...yet.

But the game definitely has become a pay for convenience now.
Between mount upgrades and unrestricted research scrolls (no limits on usage), they drastically cut the time a wealthy new player needs to max these out. Some could see this as pay to win in comparison with new players.

All content should be free and unlocked when you buy the game
I would not complain if the game was free with all content unlockable in game or pay for connivance
Or even a sub base game as long as the dlc is free like they promised but broke with morrowind

Thats not the way it works, its like buying a new car and demanding free gasoline as long you use the car, game companies dont bring out games and dlc's for your pleassure only, they need to make some income to.

To be fair, you can have a business model where all content releases are free, and you're paying for other things. I mean, originally, ESO was supposed to be that, back when it was subscription based. Somewhere on the path to the consoles, those ideas got dropped together. Pay $15 a month, and everything else is free (except the boxed expansions).

I mean, Secret World Legends does the, all content is free thing. It's also hilariously P2W, because of how itemization works, and dovetails into the lockboxes. But, it's also f2p.