Legend Tournament Series - Tournament tonight - Low CP Tournament tomorrow - Scarr streaming

Rainraven

Sypher can't stream this one? I hope someone can. I have the flu, and it makes me feel so much better to watch people PVP!

Ragnaroek93

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

This tournament looked so fun that it made me want to participate in it.
Can compare it to last eu tournament with 90% tanks and trolls searching for attention..
Btw, why no start with zero ult?
P.S.: no-CP duels ftw.

CP has been more balanced than non-CP since Morrowind. No reason to cling to non-CP anymore. Time to move on.

We just aren't bothered by ults as much, I guess. It's come up a couple times in rules discussions, but the guild just kind of shrugs and doesn't care. If someone dies to a meteor combo 10 seconds in with full resources, then they're bad. lol

The person who drops a meteor 10 seconds in is also bad.

Legend is developing a unique culture. We don't care who wins fights. Our egos aren't tied to wins and losses and tournaments. Our duel gatherings are full of RP and trolling and laughs, some people come in troll builds, and everyone's just hanging out and chilling. It's pretty amazing to watch. I think this results in more people coming to duels and tournaments in open world builds instead of tryhard ***.

Yes, my Durok's build was originally an open world build, and I've played it in open world plenty.

Or maybe the NA dueling scene is just in a new infancy after being largely dead from Dark Brotherhood through now, and people just haven't put their tryhard cheese pants on yet. I'll do my best to see that it doesn't come to that, though.

“get piped scrub” salt fest

Describe the PC EU dueling scene in 5 words or less

Blobsky wrote: »

Unfortunately EU is 90% custom duel builds so this would be insanely boring for us... Rule of thumb: if they are comfortably over 30k health or with multiple ground aoes, expect atleast a 60% heal debuff. Minor defile poison major defile skills (or durok) and CP stacked in defile = rip non shield stackers.

Back pre 1.5 it was very much.a test of player skill... I cant think of any custom builds but maybe im wrong. These days people literally sustain through ele drain or only heavy weave as stam, in a build vs build fight. Of course skill somewhat matters but build is just so different to the open worpd builds many of us play.

Gl in future tournaments, hopefully the custom meta wont hit na too hard

This is so true. Sadly it's gotten to an "adapt or lose" loop environment, where if you don't play a custom duel build yourself then you stand no chance, and new players find that out the hard way.

That's also why I usually like to bash on duels from other platforms that claim they're the best or anything. They may be good, but when put against a fully minmaxed duel build (which I've honestly only seen on PC EU) played by a someone that literally only duels, none of them stand a chance.

It's sad that duels have come to this, they're simply not fun anymore, at least not on PC EU.

@NightbladeMechanics 's tournament looked entertaining, the cancer obviously hasn't fully spread from our platform, except for maybe durok's defile stacking against stam but at this point that set being OP is already common knowledge.

Our difference is cultural. We aren’t taking duels seriously enough for people to tryhard like that, and we all understand that no one wants to fight specialized dueling builds. I’ll specifically ban them out before I let our community devolve like that. I heard there was an EU dueling guild until Homestead patch which was fun and used open world builds, but that its GMs got banned, initiating your comminity’s spiral.

FYI the Durok’s hate bandwagon is misguided. In order to dampen its “cancer,” I’d have to ban out Reverb, Corrupting Pollen, Incap + vAS 2h, Cyrodiil’s Crest, and other high uptime defiles — none of which sacrifice an entire gear set worth of offensive or sustain bonuses for their debuffs. Befoul is op, but be careful not to tunnel vision outside of the core issue or more dangerous and common defile sources.

If Durok’s becomes more widespread and starts shutting out stamina, I’ll consider it. So far, I’m the only person who’s used it, and the only fights which I need it for are preventing stalemates against good heavy armor magplars. I have always and still prefer to have damage sets like Alch, Maiden, or Acuity + my Necro when fighting the rest of these guys. So far, the greater threats to stamina in our tournaments have been heavy undodgeable damage from Pelican’s magden and a few of those lightning Wall of Elements mDK builds.

Try to fight a magbuild with Soul Strike and duroks (for example) as a stamina toon and you will see why people consider this set as "cancer". My vigor ticks basically heal me for 500 against a decent defile build, at this point I could run Bone Shield as well instead of vigor lol.

In general duels are magicka favoured because stamina struggles against pressure and stamina can't create cheesy duel builds to the same extend as magicka can currently, it's the opposite compared to the meta half a year ago when heavy armor Redguards facerolled duels. I'm surprised that Duroks isn't used more often on your platform because on EU it's pretty common (and not enjoyable to fight against at all).

NightbladeMechanics

Rainraven wrote: »

Sypher can't stream this one? I hope someone can. I have the flu, and it makes me feel so much better to watch people PVP!

Scarr has agreed to stream it again!





And here's a link to the brackets!

http://challonge.com/LegendESO3

Jaimeh

Congratulations to the winners! Nice duels, the best moment though was the meteor dropping on that poor unsuspecting mudcrab. Watching it from above was both horrifying and funny... there was a hole in the ground where it used to be...

NightbladeMechanics

I've updated the OP with the results!

Jaimeh wrote: »

Congratulations to the winners! Nice duels, the best moment though was the meteor dropping on that poor unsuspecting mudcrab. Watching it from above was both horrifying and funny... there was a hole in the ground where it used to be...

Pretty sure that was my meteor from off to the side! haha

Thankfully, ZOS updated dueling at some point while I was gone such that you are unable to interact with mobs while dueling. You can't target them at all, and they won't aggro on you either. Very convenient for locations like this. I think the spot was beautiful.

Pelican found it. Props go to him!

Asgari

Rules need to be adjusted so it not so favored towards magicka builds. 3 tourney and of the 15 , 3 have been stamina. I love that this is back but there is some adjustments that need to be made for sure.

NightbladeMechanics

Asgari wrote: »

Rules need to be adjusted so it not so favored towards magicka builds. 3 tourney and of the 15 , 3 have been stamina. I love that this is back but there is some adjustments that need to be made for sure.

Exactly how would you have us change the rules to consider it more fair?

Keep in mind that the meta hasn't changed very much since Morrowind patch, and stam warden was dominant in the NA/PC tourneys back then. Stamblade is dominating the EU dueling scene even now, as it has for a long time. NA/PC's top stamina players have declined to participate in our tourneys, but our top magicka players have shown up. I am open to changing the rules, as I have been all along, but I hesitate to make major changes until I see more stam players show up.

Lexxypwns

Asgari wrote: »

Rules need to be adjusted so it not so favored towards magicka builds. 3 tourney and of the 15 , 3 have been stamina. I love that this is back but there is some adjustments that need to be made for sure.

I’ll agree with the caveat that afaik nobody is using the best stamina dueling set in the game OR bringing anything resembling a meta stam warden. The lightning wall DK counters most melee builds really hard unless you’re running a lot of defile and even then it’s rough to deal with if you don’t keep them on their back foot.

NightbladeMechanics

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

Rules need to be adjusted so it not so favored towards magicka builds. 3 tourney and of the 15 , 3 have been stamina. I love that this is back but there is some adjustments that need to be made for sure.

I’ll agree with the caveat that afaik nobody is using the best stamina dueling set in the game OR bringing anything resembling a meta stam warden. The lightning wall DK counters most melee builds really hard unless you’re running a lot of defile and even then it’s rough to deal with if you don’t keep them on their back foot.

Definitely need high health and some serious Harness spam for that matchup. I like Necro + Alch into them the most. That build is brutally strong.

Lexxypwns

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

Rules need to be adjusted so it not so favored towards magicka builds. 3 tourney and of the 15 , 3 have been stamina. I love that this is back but there is some adjustments that need to be made for sure.

I’ll agree with the caveat that afaik nobody is using the best stamina dueling set in the game OR bringing anything resembling a meta stam warden. The lightning wall DK counters most melee builds really hard unless you’re running a lot of defile and even then it’s rough to deal with if you don’t keep them on their back foot.

Definitely need high health and some serious Harness spam for that matchup. I like Necro + Alch into them the most. That build is brutally strong.

Just gotta kite the wall as a stam build, but then you’re unable to line up your own melee pressure and burst. There’s a few specific counters for duels, but only stam warden and mageblade can shut it down consistently without sacrificing something, but then that gets into that -not fun- space we’ve discussed.

I could be wrong but I’d expect at least a couple people to run some anti-dk stuff and maybe mix up the winners next week.

Ragnaroek93

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

Rules need to be adjusted so it not so favored towards magicka builds. 3 tourney and of the 15 , 3 have been stamina. I love that this is back but there is some adjustments that need to be made for sure.

Exactly how would you have us change the rules to consider it more fair?

Keep in mind that the meta hasn't changed very much since Morrowind patch, and stam warden was dominant in the NA/PC tourneys back then. Stamblade is dominating the EU dueling scene even now, as it has for a long time. NA/PC's top stamina players have declined to participate in our tourneys, but our top magicka players have shown up. I am open to changing the rules, as I have been all along, but I hesitate to make major changes until I see more stam players show up.

Meta hasn't changed much? Stam got crushed so much that it's not even fun at this point. Almost everything which made stamina strong got nerfed into dust, heavy armor got trashed for stamina and medium armor is still a joke. Our dueling scene is dominated by mag Dks, magwardens and petsorcs lol, I've seen one single stamnb which does good (on a heavy armor full dueling only build, which is kinda needed to compete with magicka these days) and the last time I went to the duel spot around 90% of the people were magicka.

It's not your job to balance the game and if you ban certain stuff in tourneys you will just create a new meta by doing so. Balanacing the game is the job of ZOS but come on, acting like nothing has changed in favour of magicka is ignorant. You simply have better sustain on magicka (thanks to Ele Drain), more pressure (since the best dots are magicka based with the exception of bleeds which only have a good uptime on a nb bleed build) and more defense (because magicka defense is spammable), it's simple as that.

zParallaxz

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

Rules need to be adjusted so it not so favored towards magicka builds. 3 tourney and of the 15 , 3 have been stamina. I love that this is back but there is some adjustments that need to be made for sure.

Exactly how would you have us change the rules to consider it more fair?

Keep in mind that the meta hasn't changed very much since Morrowind patch, and stam warden was dominant in the NA/PC tourneys back then. Stamblade is dominating the EU dueling scene even now, as it has for a long time. NA/PC's top stamina players have declined to participate in our tourneys, but our top magicka players have shown up. I am open to changing the rules, as I have been all along, but I hesitate to make major changes until I see more stam players show up.

Meta hasn't changed much? Stam got crushed so much that it's not even fun at this point. Almost everything which made stamina strong got nerfed into dust, heavy armor got trashed for stamina and medium armor is still a joke. Our dueling scene is dominated by mag Dks, magwardens and petsorcs lol, I've seen one single stamnb which does good (on a heavy armor full dueling only build, which is kinda needed to compete with magicka these days) and the last time I went to the duel spot around 90% of the people were magicka.

It's not your job to balance the game and if you ban certain stuff in tourneys you will just create a new meta by doing so. Balanacing the game is the job of ZOS but come on, acting like nothing has changed in favour of magicka is ignorant. You simply have better sustain on magicka (thanks to Ele Drain), more pressure (since the best dots are magicka based with the exception of bleeds which only have a good uptime on a nb bleed build) and more defense (because magicka defense is spammable), it's simple as that.

Like Kena said, he won’t make changes to rules based on stam chars when a large percentage of stam players won’t show up.

usmcjdking

zParallaxz wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

Rules need to be adjusted so it not so favored towards magicka builds. 3 tourney and of the 15 , 3 have been stamina. I love that this is back but there is some adjustments that need to be made for sure.

Exactly how would you have us change the rules to consider it more fair?

Keep in mind that the meta hasn't changed very much since Morrowind patch, and stam warden was dominant in the NA/PC tourneys back then. Stamblade is dominating the EU dueling scene even now, as it has for a long time. NA/PC's top stamina players have declined to participate in our tourneys, but our top magicka players have shown up. I am open to changing the rules, as I have been all along, but I hesitate to make major changes until I see more stam players show up.

Meta hasn't changed much? Stam got crushed so much that it's not even fun at this point. Almost everything which made stamina strong got nerfed into dust, heavy armor got trashed for stamina and medium armor is still a joke. Our dueling scene is dominated by mag Dks, magwardens and petsorcs lol, I've seen one single stamnb which does good (on a heavy armor full dueling only build, which is kinda needed to compete with magicka these days) and the last time I went to the duel spot around 90% of the people were magicka.

It's not your job to balance the game and if you ban certain stuff in tourneys you will just create a new meta by doing so. Balanacing the game is the job of ZOS but come on, acting like nothing has changed in favour of magicka is ignorant. You simply have better sustain on magicka (thanks to Ele Drain), more pressure (since the best dots are magicka based with the exception of bleeds which only have a good uptime on a nb bleed build) and more defense (because magicka defense is spammable), it's simple as that.

Like Kena said, he won’t make changes to rules based on stam chars when a large percentage of stam players won’t show up.

To be fair a lot of the banned items disproportionately favor stamina when allowed.

NightbladeMechanics

Lexxypwns wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

Rules need to be adjusted so it not so favored towards magicka builds. 3 tourney and of the 15 , 3 have been stamina. I love that this is back but there is some adjustments that need to be made for sure.

I’ll agree with the caveat that afaik nobody is using the best stamina dueling set in the game OR bringing anything resembling a meta stam warden. The lightning wall DK counters most melee builds really hard unless you’re running a lot of defile and even then it’s rough to deal with if you don’t keep them on their back foot.

Definitely need high health and some serious Harness spam for that matchup. I like Necro + Alch into them the most. That build is brutally strong.

Just gotta kite the wall as a stam build, but then you’re unable to line up your own melee pressure and burst. There’s a few specific counters for duels, but only stam warden and mageblade can shut it down consistently without sacrificing something, but then that gets into that -not fun- space we’ve discussed.

I could be wrong but I’d expect at least a couple people to run some anti-dk stuff and maybe mix up the winners next week.

Josh did beat the 2nd place DK once on his medium armor stamblade. It can be done!

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

Rules need to be adjusted so it not so favored towards magicka builds. 3 tourney and of the 15 , 3 have been stamina. I love that this is back but there is some adjustments that need to be made for sure.

Exactly how would you have us change the rules to consider it more fair?

Keep in mind that the meta hasn't changed very much since Morrowind patch, and stam warden was dominant in the NA/PC tourneys back then. Stamblade is dominating the EU dueling scene even now, as it has for a long time. NA/PC's top stamina players have declined to participate in our tourneys, but our top magicka players have shown up. I am open to changing the rules, as I have been all along, but I hesitate to make major changes until I see more stam players show up.

Meta hasn't changed much? Stam got crushed so much that it's not even fun at this point. Almost everything which made stamina strong got nerfed into dust, heavy armor got trashed for stamina and medium armor is still a joke. Our dueling scene is dominated by mag Dks, magwardens and petsorcs lol, I've seen one single stamnb which does good (on a heavy armor full dueling only build, which is kinda needed to compete with magicka these days) and the last time I went to the duel spot around 90% of the people were magicka.

It's not your job to balance the game and if you ban certain stuff in tourneys you will just create a new meta by doing so. Balanacing the game is the job of ZOS but come on, acting like nothing has changed in favour of magicka is ignorant. You simply have better sustain on magicka (thanks to Ele Drain), more pressure (since the best dots are magicka based with the exception of bleeds which only have a good uptime on a nb bleed build) and more defense (because magicka defense is spammable), it's simple as that.

Little dramatic. The primary obstacles to stam characters in our tournaments are particular Wall of Elements mDK and magden builds focusing on high undodgeable damage, which stamina has always been weak to. Pet sorcs and mDKs have been two of the strongest dueling classes for years, and we continue to ban pet sorcs as always. We fully understand Ele Drain's strength, but we chose not to ban it in because not many people are using it over here. Same as always. And defiles have been strong since Homestead patch.

I said the meta hasn't changed much, and to suggest that it has swung wildly this patch is simply misguided.

Also have you fought a good bleed stamplar? Very powerful. And shields have the worst stat efficiency of all the game's defensive mechanics. Dodging, blocking, and heals over time are easily better. Having to spam your defense is a bad thing, fyi. lol That's a good way to run out of resources.

Anyways, we're not doing tryhard dueling builds over here. We're playing to have fun and build a community of friends who all get along and help each other improve, with BGs or open world Cyrodiil as the end goal, not 1v1 epeen. Duels are too easy for that, and fighting specialized dueling builds is simply not fun. Upon hearing my vision for the new Legend, some EU friends reminisced about the culture of Mythical Playground before it died off at the start of Homestead patch. Perhaps that will help you understand what we're doing.

NirnStorm

@diamanda is too OP, plz nerf

Minno

You forgot to include escapist poisons in the banned list. It gives you immunity to immobilze, immobilzes your target and breaks you free of all ongoing control effects for 3.9 seconds.

caeliusstarbreaker

Honestly, given the amount of defiles, immobs superiority of mag classes, burst healing/ability to use shields of stamina being virtually absent, I would think that the ability to use troll king.. at least on stam classes would make this a bit more inviting to stam classes in the tourney’s. Besides stam nb, who effectively have a method of breaking los and the strongest CC, which is why you still see them in dueling comps, all the other classes are just absent too many tools comparative to their magicka counterparts.

The immob, defile, ability to relegate crit chance to zero by push of a button and CC through dodge or block, and burst heal spam, kinda just leaves stam without cloak or troll king to just not enter. I’m sure we will discuss in great length in TS at a later time my exact points on all these issues, but as the rules exist immob superiority/spam of mag, lack of stam burst heals, constant dmg and crit dmg functionally always going to go to a stam user’s hp, along with crit dmg negation is kinda clearly reflected in leaderboard ranking, which save stamblade which can LOS in a fighting venue where LOS is frowned upon or not allowed.

Also.. casting one skill that makes another skill cost nothing, and being it’s higher damage variant, is pretty cheese too.

Added: either way congrats to the winners I’m sure it was no easy task and I hope you all had a good time.

zParallaxz

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Honestly, given the amount of defiles, immobs superiority of mag classes, burst healing/ability to use shields of stamina being virtually absent, I would think that the ability to use troll king.. at least on stam classes would make this a bit more inviting to stam classes in the tourney’s. Besides stam nb, who effectively have a method of breaking los and the strongest CC, which is why you still see them in dueling comps, all the other classes are just absent too many tools comparative to their magicka counterparts.

The immob, defile, ability to relegate crit chance to zero by push of a button and CC through dodge or block, and burst heal spam, kinda just leaves stam without cloak or troll king to just not enter. I’m sure we will discuss in great length in TS at a later time my exact points on all these issues, but as the rules exist immob superiority/spam of mag, lack of stam burst heals, constant dmg and crit dmg functionally always going to go to a stam user’s hp, along with crit dmg negation is kinda clearly reflected in leaderboard ranking, which save stamblade which can LOS in a fighting venue where LOS is frowned upon or not allowed.

Also.. casting one skill that makes another skill cost nothing, and being it’s higher damage variant, is pretty cheese too.

Added: either way congrats to the winners I’m sure it was no easy task and I hope you all had a good time.

Honestly dude all classes have a fair chance within the rules of that tournament . Just takes that one player who knows his class, build, and how to overcome his counters.

caeliusstarbreaker

zParallaxz wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Honestly, given the amount of defiles, immobs superiority of mag classes, burst healing/ability to use shields of stamina being virtually absent, I would think that the ability to use troll king.. at least on stam classes would make this a bit more inviting to stam classes in the tourney’s. Besides stam nb, who effectively have a method of breaking los and the strongest CC, which is why you still see them in dueling comps, all the other classes are just absent too many tools comparative to their magicka counterparts.

The immob, defile, ability to relegate crit chance to zero by push of a button and CC through dodge or block, and burst heal spam, kinda just leaves stam without cloak or troll king to just not enter. I’m sure we will discuss in great length in TS at a later time my exact points on all these issues, but as the rules exist immob superiority/spam of mag, lack of stam burst heals, constant dmg and crit dmg functionally always going to go to a stam user’s hp, along with crit dmg negation is kinda clearly reflected in leaderboard ranking, which save stamblade which can LOS in a fighting venue where LOS is frowned upon or not allowed.

Also.. casting one skill that makes another skill cost nothing, and being it’s higher damage variant, is pretty cheese too.

Added: either way congrats to the winners I’m sure it was no easy task and I hope you all had a good time.

Honestly dude all classes have a fair chance within the rules of that tournament . Just takes that one player who knows his class, build, and how to overcome his counters.

I’m not saying that people can’t win, but I wouldn’t say it’s exactly fair. We can’t change game balance, but how are you gonna do something like take troll king out, but leave duroks in? Last I spoke with Kena loosely about the tourney he said troll king was going to be allowed, however for some reason is was taken off again. You’re either going to allow people to use all the tools they have, save resource poisons because I’m pretty sure everyone thinks they are horrible, or just create everyone one set of armor and have them all fight in that. You can’t say hey you there with the crappy healing you can’t use this armor set to help but I can use this set to make your healing even worse.

From a 1 on 1 standpoint magicka has a slight upper hand with its tool kit, stam nb being the glaring exception, and not allowing troll king but allowing duroks is a bit paradoxical.

I’m not saying there has to be try hard dueling builds only, and I’m just a stamplar that doesn’t really do the whole competitive dueling thing, but your character build is a combination of all things races, skills and gear. Outlawing any items is kinda disconcerting.

NightbladeMechanics

Minno wrote: »

You forgot to include escapist poisons in the banned list. It gives you immunity to immobilze, immobilzes your target and breaks you free of all ongoing control effects for 3.9 seconds.

Escapist poisons use the "Unstoppable" effect. That is cc immunity / immovability, which is banned. It does not grant immunity to immobilizes, just hard cc immunity + an immobilize on the opponent.

The immobilize is called Entrapment, and it is allowed. You can craft poisons that have that effect without the cc immunity portion.

The list of banned poison effects are Unstoppable, Cowardice, Ravage Magicka, and Ravage stamina (Cowardice is ulti cost increase).

Minno

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

You forgot to include escapist poisons in the banned list. It gives you immunity to immobilze, immobilzes your target and breaks you free of all ongoing control effects for 3.9 seconds.

Escapist poisons use the "Unstoppable" effect. That is cc immunity / immovability, which is banned. It does not grant immunity to immobilizes, just hard cc immunity + an immobilize on the opponent.

The immobilize is called Entrapment, and it is allowed. You can craft poisons that have that effect without the cc immunity portion.

The list of banned poison effects are Unstoppable, Cowardice, Ravage Magicka, and Ravage stamina (Cowardice is ulti cost increase).

ahhhhhhh ok I got it. You listed the effect names not the poison names. My bad lol.

Subversus

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

This tournament looked so fun that it made me want to participate in it.
Can compare it to last eu tournament with 90% tanks and trolls searching for attention..
Btw, why no start with zero ult?
P.S.: no-CP duels ftw.

CP has been more balanced than non-CP since Morrowind. No reason to cling to non-CP anymore. Time to move on.

We just aren't bothered by ults as much, I guess. It's come up a couple times in rules discussions, but the guild just kind of shrugs and doesn't care. If someone dies to a meteor combo 10 seconds in with full resources, then they're bad. lol

The person who drops a meteor 10 seconds in is also bad.

Legend is developing a unique culture. We don't care who wins fights. Our egos aren't tied to wins and losses and tournaments. Our duel gatherings are full of RP and trolling and laughs, some people come in troll builds, and everyone's just hanging out and chilling. It's pretty amazing to watch. I think this results in more people coming to duels and tournaments in open world builds instead of tryhard ***.

Yes, my Durok's build was originally an open world build, and I've played it in open world plenty.

Or maybe the NA dueling scene is just in a new infancy after being largely dead from Dark Brotherhood through now, and people just haven't put their tryhard cheese pants on yet. I'll do my best to see that it doesn't come to that, though.

“get piped scrub” salt fest

Describe the PC EU dueling scene in 5 words or less

Blobsky wrote: »

Unfortunately EU is 90% custom duel builds so this would be insanely boring for us... Rule of thumb: if they are comfortably over 30k health or with multiple ground aoes, expect atleast a 60% heal debuff. Minor defile poison major defile skills (or durok) and CP stacked in defile = rip non shield stackers.

Back pre 1.5 it was very much.a test of player skill... I cant think of any custom builds but maybe im wrong. These days people literally sustain through ele drain or only heavy weave as stam, in a build vs build fight. Of course skill somewhat matters but build is just so different to the open worpd builds many of us play.

Gl in future tournaments, hopefully the custom meta wont hit na too hard

This is so true. Sadly it's gotten to an "adapt or lose" loop environment, where if you don't play a custom duel build yourself then you stand no chance, and new players find that out the hard way.

That's also why I usually like to bash on duels from other platforms that claim they're the best or anything. They may be good, but when put against a fully minmaxed duel build (which I've honestly only seen on PC EU) played by a someone that literally only duels, none of them stand a chance.

It's sad that duels have come to this, they're simply not fun anymore, at least not on PC EU.

@NightbladeMechanics 's tournament looked entertaining, the cancer obviously hasn't fully spread from our platform, except for maybe durok's defile stacking against stam but at this point that set being OP is already common knowledge.

Our difference is cultural. We aren’t taking duels seriously enough for people to tryhard like that, and we all understand that no one wants to fight specialized dueling builds. I’ll specifically ban them out before I let our community devolve like that. I heard there was an EU dueling guild until Homestead patch which was fun and used open world builds, but that its GMs got banned, initiating your comminity’s spiral.

FYI the Durok’s hate bandwagon is misguided. In order to dampen its “cancer,” I’d have to ban out Reverb, Corrupting Pollen, Incap + vAS 2h, Cyrodiil’s Crest, and other high uptime defiles — none of which sacrifice an entire gear set worth of offensive or sustain bonuses for their debuffs. Befoul is op, but be careful not to tunnel vision outside of the core issue or more dangerous and common defile sources.

If Durok’s becomes more widespread and starts shutting out stamina, I’ll consider it. So far, I’m the only person who’s used it, and the only fights which I need it for are preventing stalemates against good heavy armor magplars. I have always and still prefer to have damage sets like Alch, Maiden, or Acuity + my Necro when fighting the rest of these guys. So far, the greater threats to stamina in our tournaments have been heavy undodgeable damage from Pelican’s magden and a few of those lightning Wall of Elements mDK builds.

Yeah, it was actually my bad. The OP part comes from defile, not durok's itself. The set just makes it easier to apply it. The defile itself needs a huge nerf imo (or at least a change), because in the current meta it is mostly used my mag to shut down stam instead of the other way around. I understand that defile is a counterplay to high healing builds, but defile itself has no counterplay and is WAY overtuned.

Imo the % should scale with your stam, to a max of say 40% and have the CP star removed entirely.

But yeah, the meta didn't use to be so *** on PC EU either, it's just that people like my buddy Jeff's heavy 6k wep dmg bleedstack and Dracane on her destro/destro petsorc with 1 shield slowly ruined everything. Nobody could beat them for a long time, until people realized that they actually need to play cancer in order to win against cancer. A few chain reactions later and here we are.

It's sad, really.

Subversus

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

Rules need to be adjusted so it not so favored towards magicka builds. 3 tourney and of the 15 , 3 have been stamina. I love that this is back but there is some adjustments that need to be made for sure.

I’ll agree with the caveat that afaik nobody is using the best stamina dueling set in the game OR bringing anything resembling a meta stam warden. The lightning wall DK counters most melee builds really hard unless you’re running a lot of defile and even then it’s rough to deal with if you don’t keep them on their back foot.

Now I'm a bit curious. I also heard of the new lightning wall magdk build that some people started using, where you drop dragon's blood completely thanks to off balance.

What sets would you use on that? Like I'd assume skoria is still on the table due to it being OP, but what 2 5ps would work with an offbalance build?

Jawasa

Skoria, durok and overwhelming for duels maybe. Mag proc build.

Subversus

Jawasa wrote: »

Skoria, durok and overwhelming for duels maybe. Mag proc build.

Now that's interesting. I never actually thought of that hahaha. Combine overwhelming with shackle, skoria and s/b frontbar for tankyness and a charged lightning staff backbar with a lightning glyph for wall of elements and drain and you got something going! Sounds interesting, maybe even go with 5-2 light cause you already get carried by permablock (talking strictly 1v1 here, heavy might work a bit better open world idk)

NightbladeMechanics

Subversus wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

This tournament looked so fun that it made me want to participate in it.
Can compare it to last eu tournament with 90% tanks and trolls searching for attention..
Btw, why no start with zero ult?
P.S.: no-CP duels ftw.

CP has been more balanced than non-CP since Morrowind. No reason to cling to non-CP anymore. Time to move on.

We just aren't bothered by ults as much, I guess. It's come up a couple times in rules discussions, but the guild just kind of shrugs and doesn't care. If someone dies to a meteor combo 10 seconds in with full resources, then they're bad. lol

The person who drops a meteor 10 seconds in is also bad.

Legend is developing a unique culture. We don't care who wins fights. Our egos aren't tied to wins and losses and tournaments. Our duel gatherings are full of RP and trolling and laughs, some people come in troll builds, and everyone's just hanging out and chilling. It's pretty amazing to watch. I think this results in more people coming to duels and tournaments in open world builds instead of tryhard ***.

Yes, my Durok's build was originally an open world build, and I've played it in open world plenty.

Or maybe the NA dueling scene is just in a new infancy after being largely dead from Dark Brotherhood through now, and people just haven't put their tryhard cheese pants on yet. I'll do my best to see that it doesn't come to that, though.

“get piped scrub” salt fest

Describe the PC EU dueling scene in 5 words or less

Blobsky wrote: »

Unfortunately EU is 90% custom duel builds so this would be insanely boring for us... Rule of thumb: if they are comfortably over 30k health or with multiple ground aoes, expect atleast a 60% heal debuff. Minor defile poison major defile skills (or durok) and CP stacked in defile = rip non shield stackers.

Back pre 1.5 it was very much.a test of player skill... I cant think of any custom builds but maybe im wrong. These days people literally sustain through ele drain or only heavy weave as stam, in a build vs build fight. Of course skill somewhat matters but build is just so different to the open worpd builds many of us play.

Gl in future tournaments, hopefully the custom meta wont hit na too hard

This is so true. Sadly it's gotten to an "adapt or lose" loop environment, where if you don't play a custom duel build yourself then you stand no chance, and new players find that out the hard way.

That's also why I usually like to bash on duels from other platforms that claim they're the best or anything. They may be good, but when put against a fully minmaxed duel build (which I've honestly only seen on PC EU) played by a someone that literally only duels, none of them stand a chance.

It's sad that duels have come to this, they're simply not fun anymore, at least not on PC EU.

@NightbladeMechanics 's tournament looked entertaining, the cancer obviously hasn't fully spread from our platform, except for maybe durok's defile stacking against stam but at this point that set being OP is already common knowledge.

Our difference is cultural. We aren’t taking duels seriously enough for people to tryhard like that, and we all understand that no one wants to fight specialized dueling builds. I’ll specifically ban them out before I let our community devolve like that. I heard there was an EU dueling guild until Homestead patch which was fun and used open world builds, but that its GMs got banned, initiating your comminity’s spiral.

FYI the Durok’s hate bandwagon is misguided. In order to dampen its “cancer,” I’d have to ban out Reverb, Corrupting Pollen, Incap + vAS 2h, Cyrodiil’s Crest, and other high uptime defiles — none of which sacrifice an entire gear set worth of offensive or sustain bonuses for their debuffs. Befoul is op, but be careful not to tunnel vision outside of the core issue or more dangerous and common defile sources.

If Durok’s becomes more widespread and starts shutting out stamina, I’ll consider it. So far, I’m the only person who’s used it, and the only fights which I need it for are preventing stalemates against good heavy armor magplars. I have always and still prefer to have damage sets like Alch, Maiden, or Acuity + my Necro when fighting the rest of these guys. So far, the greater threats to stamina in our tournaments have been heavy undodgeable damage from Pelican’s magden and a few of those lightning Wall of Elements mDK builds.

Yeah, it was actually my bad. The OP part comes from defile, not durok's itself. The set just makes it easier to apply it. The defile itself needs a huge nerf imo (or at least a change), because in the current meta it is mostly used my mag to shut down stam instead of the other way around. I understand that defile is a counterplay to high healing builds, but defile itself has no counterplay and is WAY overtuned.

Imo the % should scale with your stam, to a max of say 40% and have the CP star removed entirely.

But yeah, the meta didn't use to be so *** on PC EU either, it's just that people like my buddy Jeff's heavy 6k wep dmg bleedstack and Dracane on her destro/destro petsorc with 1 shield slowly ruined everything. Nobody could beat them for a long time, until people realized that they actually need to play cancer in order to win against cancer. A few chain reactions later and here we are.

It's sad, really.

The issue with healing is complex. TLDR: healing is op, but Befoul is more OP, and it's all out of whack.

On the one hand, players can obtain many healing bonuses which don't have negative mirror debuffs. Defile is the mirror debuff of Vitality, but Mending, nightblade Soul Siphoner passive, DK Burning Heart passive, and others don't have appropriate mirrors. This makes healing way stronger than base defiles. Base defiles are nothing without Befoul.

Then on the other hand, Befoul pumps up the power of defiles a LOT...but the bonus healing CP stars don't appropriately mirror it. Notice that Befoul is a green star. Green CP are supposed to be geared toward sustain, yet Befoul is a pseudo-offensive application. It is easy to give up points in other green stars to allocate a lot into Befoul. However, Quick Recovery and Blessed are low-value stars placed alongside very powerful red mitigation and blue damage stars. It's very difficult to justify many points in them, if any.

Therefore banning out Defiles alone leaves you with overtuned healing. Banning out Befoul is impossible to enforce. Banning out Troll King leaves stamina lacking, especially medium armor builds.

I honestly don't know how to balance duels, so we're about to begin some serious trial and error. We're discussing banning all armor sets which apply a healing debuff (Durok's, Fasalla's, Cyrodiil's Crest) and allowing Troll King. Those rules will likely be in place this weekend. I really hope we don't see some of those Jeff-esque dedicated dueling builds....but I suppose we can always crack down on those in future tournaments.

Anyways, yes I'm well aware of Jeff and Dracane's builds and their impact on the EU dueling community. Pet sorcs and those super tanky, high weapon damage stamina builds are no fun to play against. I'm going to do everything I can to keep that mess from showing up at our duels, but I am also getting a lot of pressure from our stamina players to give them some help. We'll see how this weekend goes.

NightbladeMechanics

Subversus wrote: »

Jawasa wrote: »

Skoria, durok and overwhelming for duels maybe. Mag proc build.

Now that's interesting. I never actually thought of that hahaha. Combine overwhelming with shackle, skoria and s/b frontbar for tankyness and a charged lightning staff backbar with a lightning glyph for wall of elements and drain and you got something going! Sounds interesting, maybe even go with 5-2 light cause you already get carried by permablock (talking strictly 1v1 here, heavy might work a bit better open world idk)

The winner of last weekend's tournament used Durok's + Overwhelming + Valkyn on his lightning staff mDK. He pulled a huge upset against players who had routinely beaten him and placed higher in the past. It's great seeing him growing as a player in such a short amount of time -- and he has been -- but I cannot deny that inserting the heal debuff into that build is absolutely brutal in 1v1s.

Defile sets like Fasalla's, Durok's, and Cyrodiil's Crest are bad against magicka shielding classes like magden, sorc, and light armor magplar, mDK, and mageblade, but they do make a huge difference against heavy armor high-healing builds and pretty much anything stamina. I only find Durok's necessary against heavy armor magplars, but god I can't kill a really good heavy magplar, even in Spinner + Maiden... As I explained in my last post, healing without a high-uptime defile is op, and magplar just purges Soul Harvest's defile off instantly.

Does anyone else find it interesting that the highest healing class is also the most resistant to healing debuffs? lol

Sylphie

Guy who wore Duroks last tourney here, thought I'd clear some things up.

1. I did not build to "tryhard" in duels. I made the build because I wanted to use something different in open world and have enjoyed the setup there immensely. I compete in the tournaments and 1v1s in general because I like the people in the community and it gives me a rare chance to interact with people that I won’t get a chance to meet if I’m in cyro.

2. I agree that major defile is strong in 1v1s, due to how absurdly high you can stack it with befoul. My buddy Passifest has a high win:ratio against me and the few duels I’ve had with Pelican while he was running his bear+shadowrend setup has resulted in my losses.

While my upset was mainly due to Duroks, I believe that the fact that I was severely underestimated even though I have played decently in my previous setup was also a key factor in my win.

Balance has always been a hard to achieve in duels. I personally don’t care if Durok is banned as once again, I have made the build with open world in mind. I also doubt I will be competing next tournament as I’m currently swamped with work due to the Christmas rush.

zParallaxz

Subversus wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

This tournament looked so fun that it made me want to participate in it.
Can compare it to last eu tournament with 90% tanks and trolls searching for attention..
Btw, why no start with zero ult?
P.S.: no-CP duels ftw.

CP has been more balanced than non-CP since Morrowind. No reason to cling to non-CP anymore. Time to move on.

We just aren't bothered by ults as much, I guess. It's come up a couple times in rules discussions, but the guild just kind of shrugs and doesn't care. If someone dies to a meteor combo 10 seconds in with full resources, then they're bad. lol

The person who drops a meteor 10 seconds in is also bad.

Legend is developing a unique culture. We don't care who wins fights. Our egos aren't tied to wins and losses and tournaments. Our duel gatherings are full of RP and trolling and laughs, some people come in troll builds, and everyone's just hanging out and chilling. It's pretty amazing to watch. I think this results in more people coming to duels and tournaments in open world builds instead of tryhard ***.

Yes, my Durok's build was originally an open world build, and I've played it in open world plenty.

Or maybe the NA dueling scene is just in a new infancy after being largely dead from Dark Brotherhood through now, and people just haven't put their tryhard cheese pants on yet. I'll do my best to see that it doesn't come to that, though.

“get piped scrub” salt fest

Describe the PC EU dueling scene in 5 words or less

Blobsky wrote: »

Unfortunately EU is 90% custom duel builds so this would be insanely boring for us... Rule of thumb: if they are comfortably over 30k health or with multiple ground aoes, expect atleast a 60% heal debuff. Minor defile poison major defile skills (or durok) and CP stacked in defile = rip non shield stackers.

Back pre 1.5 it was very much.a test of player skill... I cant think of any custom builds but maybe im wrong. These days people literally sustain through ele drain or only heavy weave as stam, in a build vs build fight. Of course skill somewhat matters but build is just so different to the open worpd builds many of us play.

Gl in future tournaments, hopefully the custom meta wont hit na too hard

This is so true. Sadly it's gotten to an "adapt or lose" loop environment, where if you don't play a custom duel build yourself then you stand no chance, and new players find that out the hard way.

That's also why I usually like to bash on duels from other platforms that claim they're the best or anything. They may be good, but when put against a fully minmaxed duel build (which I've honestly only seen on PC EU) played by a someone that literally only duels, none of them stand a chance.

It's sad that duels have come to this, they're simply not fun anymore, at least not on PC EU.

@NightbladeMechanics 's tournament looked entertaining, the cancer obviously hasn't fully spread from our platform, except for maybe durok's defile stacking against stam but at this point that set being OP is already common knowledge.

Our difference is cultural. We aren’t taking duels seriously enough for people to tryhard like that, and we all understand that no one wants to fight specialized dueling builds. I’ll specifically ban them out before I let our community devolve like that. I heard there was an EU dueling guild until Homestead patch which was fun and used open world builds, but that its GMs got banned, initiating your comminity’s spiral.

FYI the Durok’s hate bandwagon is misguided. In order to dampen its “cancer,” I’d have to ban out Reverb, Corrupting Pollen, Incap + vAS 2h, Cyrodiil’s Crest, and other high uptime defiles — none of which sacrifice an entire gear set worth of offensive or sustain bonuses for their debuffs. Befoul is op, but be careful not to tunnel vision outside of the core issue or more dangerous and common defile sources.

If Durok’s becomes more widespread and starts shutting out stamina, I’ll consider it. So far, I’m the only person who’s used it, and the only fights which I need it for are preventing stalemates against good heavy armor magplars. I have always and still prefer to have damage sets like Alch, Maiden, or Acuity + my Necro when fighting the rest of these guys. So far, the greater threats to stamina in our tournaments have been heavy undodgeable damage from Pelican’s magden and a few of those lightning Wall of Elements mDK builds.

Yeah, it was actually my bad. The OP part comes from defile, not durok's itself. The set just makes it easier to apply it. The defile itself needs a huge nerf imo (or at least a change), because in the current meta it is mostly used my mag to shut down stam instead of the other way around. I understand that defile is a counterplay to high healing builds, but defile itself has no counterplay and is WAY overtuned.

Imo the % should scale with your stam, to a max of say 40% and have the CP star removed entirely.

But yeah, the meta didn't use to be so *** on PC EU either, it's just that people like my buddy Jeff's heavy 6k wep dmg bleedstack and Dracane on her destro/destro petsorc with 1 shield slowly ruined everything. Nobody could beat them for a long time, until people realized that they actually need to play cancer in order to win against cancer. A few chain reactions later and here we are.

It's sad, really.

See from my view point as a Xbox Na player I have beat people who have ran iterations of those builds. Each build whether pet sorc or heavy stamblade bleed build while seamingly OP, they had their counter play i.e the counter to pet sorc with one shield was to vigorously kill the pet and bash if attempted to resummon, then the pet sorc becomes a gimp sorc without a Necro bonus. The counter for the heavy dot build stam blade was to have high enough damage through all three spell pen, max mag , and spell damage and vigorously snare them. This proves my point that while a build someone made seems op, it really just takes the one man to outplay or counter it.

zParallaxz

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Jawasa wrote: »

Skoria, durok and overwhelming for duels maybe. Mag proc build.

Now that's interesting. I never actually thought of that hahaha. Combine overwhelming with shackle, skoria and s/b frontbar for tankyness and a charged lightning staff backbar with a lightning glyph for wall of elements and drain and you got something going! Sounds interesting, maybe even go with 5-2 light cause you already get carried by permablock (talking strictly 1v1 here, heavy might work a bit better open world idk)

The winner of last weekend's tournament used Durok's + Overwhelming + Valkyn on his lightning staff mDK. He pulled a huge upset against players who had routinely beaten him and placed higher in the past. It's great seeing him growing as a player in such a short amount of time -- and he has been -- but I cannot deny that inserting the heal debuff into that build is absolutely brutal in 1v1s.

Defile sets like Fasalla's, Durok's, and Cyrodiil's Crest are bad against magicka shielding classes like magden, sorc, and light armor magplar, mDK, and mageblade, but they do make a huge difference against heavy armor high-healing builds and pretty much anything stamina. I only find Durok's necessary against heavy armor magplars, but god I can't kill a really good heavy magplar, even in Spinner + Maiden... As I explained in my last post, healing without a high-uptime defile is op, and magplar just purges Soul Harvest's defile off instantly.

Does anyone else find it interesting that the highest healing class is also the most resistant to healing debuffs? lol

Another example can be used here, if any of you have a magdk fight a magplar and use cinder storm with standard of might as your ult and you can find it being a direct counter to magplars. Cinder storm is ground based aoe, dot, 70% snare that can’t be purged.