Everything needed to know about Bow/Bow in PVE

  • Jowrik
    Jowrik
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    Currently testing with with khajiit stamblade, new bow seems to add scatter shot nicely into the rotation (about 1.5-2k dps from it) atleast. Compared to my current build on live, damage seems quite the same. Ofcourse, there's no monster set (5 briar 5 rele) so no extra Undaunted stats. Hovering around 41k dps on a dummy on avarage. Will update after further testing.

    OwnDoFq.jpg[
    Edited by Jowrik on September 23, 2018 12:52AM
    Nightblade - Khajiit - Rha'Viir
    PC - EU - Aldmeri Dominion
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    Jowrik wrote: »
    Currently testing with with khajiit stamblade, new bow seems to add scatter shot nicely into the rotation (about 1.5-2k dps from it) atleast. Compared to my current build on live, damage seems quite the same. Ofcourse, there's no monster set (5 briar 5 rele) so no extra Undaunted stats. Hovering around 41k dps on a dummy on avarage. Will update after further testing.

    OwnDoFq.jpg[

    Razor Shot adds on average 800DPS which is nearly half of what stormfist gives while Draining Shot on average deals 4k less damage on cutting dive (if we are going to compare instant cast abilities).

    Sure, it can be made looking cool by standing 28m far away to get 6 ticks of razor shot instead of 2! (yes thats how many ticks you get in nearly every trial fight, 3 if you are lucky with position).

    When comparing Perfect Blackrose Bow with Master Bow I was getting stable 1k DPS gain using master bow on stamina warden.
    Edited by SodanTok on September 23, 2018 12:43PM
    PC | EU | AD
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    Just a FYI:
    They stole our Adrenaline rush. Instead of fixing this broken af passive, they just fixed ways to get it on bow/bow. But dont worry too much, even without ways to use it on bow builds, the redguard 10% max stam passive is still potent damage buff making the race far better choice than for example bosmer. Tho this will put Khajiit and Imperial back again above redguard.

    As for the sustain impact, thankfully they put absorb stam enchant in the game so at least everyone (even non redguard) can enjoy some sustain, redguards will simply just not get much better. Plus wardens, templars and DKs got some juicy sustain buffs.
    PC | EU | AD
  • Kanar
    Kanar
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    Are you referring to the relequin fix to stop it from proccing melee effects, or is there some other change too?
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    Kanar wrote: »
    Are you referring to the relequin fix to stop it from proccing melee effects, or is there some other change too?

    Both relequen and Poison enchant arent proccing adrenaline rush (or other melee effects)
    PC | EU | AD
  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
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    SodanTok wrote: »
    Kanar wrote: »
    Are you referring to the relequin fix to stop it from proccing melee effects, or is there some other change too?

    Both relequen and Poison enchant arent proccing adrenaline rush (or other melee effects)

    I wonder if the poison enchant was intended
  • Raraaku
    Raraaku
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    @Toc de Malsvi @SodanTok

    Does the World in Ruin changes to Stamina Dragonknight include the Bow Skills as well? I'm guessing they do since they included the Undaunted skill.
    Back from a much needed break. || I like having too many projects and working on them all at once.

    Tank Enthusiast || CP: 445 || Stormproof

    Tanks
    Karsaak gro-Ursa: DC || Orc || Stamina Dragonknight || Tank || Level: CP 445
    Sir Leopold Stotch: DC || Breton || Magicka Templar || Tank || Level: 445
    Protects-Squishy-Ones: EP || Argonian || Magicka Sorcerer || Tank/CC || Level: CP 445
    Björn Shadow-Walker: EP || Nord || Stamina Nightblade || Tank || Level: 15
    Tiberius Valerion: AD || Imperial || Stamina Warden || Tank || Level: 15

    Damage Dealers
    Morrigan Ravyn-Cloak: AD || Altmer || Magicka Nightblade || DPS || Level: CP 445
    Ra'Zahkara: AD || Khajiit || Stamina Dragonknight || DPS || Level: CP 445
    Ezra al-Khazir: DC || Redguard || Stamina Templar || DPS || Level: 40
    Erryndril Telvaux: EP || Dunmer || Magicka Dragonknight || DPS || Level: 25
    Uzara gra-Khalari: DC || Orc || Stamina Nightblade || DPS [2H/DW] || Level: 15
    Solomon Motierre: DC || Breton || Magicka Sorcerer || DPS || Level: 20
    Ragnar the Wulf: EP || Nord || Stamina Warden || DPS || Level: 30
    Ra'Rahku: AD || Khajiit || Stamina Nightblade || DPS [Bow/Bow] || Level: 15

    Healers
    Sees-through-Hist: EP || Argonian || Magicka Warden || Healer/CC || CP 445
    Daedalus the Artificer: AD || Altmer || Magicka Templar || Healer || Level: 15
  • Toc de Malsvi
    Toc de Malsvi
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    Raraaku wrote: »
    @Toc de Malsvi @SodanTok

    Does the World in Ruin changes to Stamina Dragonknight include the Bow Skills as well? I'm guessing they do since they included the Undaunted skill.

    It does, and it is quite a nice boost for Bow/Bow DK. The sustain change is very significant and allows for rotations with zero heavy attacks. Most importantly it allows for greater ranged dps potential on the DK. Essentially the DK can finally play ranged with Bow/Bow instead of being forced into melee to be respectable. Melee still allows for a higher dps output, but ranged is not so gimped anymore.
    Legendary Archer of Valenwood
    Bosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Templar's are evil..
  • Raraaku
    Raraaku
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    Raraaku wrote: »
    @Toc de Malsvi @SodanTok

    Does the World in Ruin changes to Stamina Dragonknight include the Bow Skills as well? I'm guessing they do since they included the Undaunted skill.

    It does, and it is quite a nice boost for Bow/Bow DK. The sustain change is very significant and allows for rotations with zero heavy attacks. Most importantly it allows for greater ranged dps potential on the DK. Essentially the DK can finally play ranged with Bow/Bow instead of being forced into melee to be respectable. Melee still allows for a higher dps output, but ranged is not so gimped anymore.

    @Toc de Malsvi Thanks for the update! I tried to do a Stamblade for my bow/bow build but DK still has my heart
    Back from a much needed break. || I like having too many projects and working on them all at once.

    Tank Enthusiast || CP: 445 || Stormproof

    Tanks
    Karsaak gro-Ursa: DC || Orc || Stamina Dragonknight || Tank || Level: CP 445
    Sir Leopold Stotch: DC || Breton || Magicka Templar || Tank || Level: 445
    Protects-Squishy-Ones: EP || Argonian || Magicka Sorcerer || Tank/CC || Level: CP 445
    Björn Shadow-Walker: EP || Nord || Stamina Nightblade || Tank || Level: 15
    Tiberius Valerion: AD || Imperial || Stamina Warden || Tank || Level: 15

    Damage Dealers
    Morrigan Ravyn-Cloak: AD || Altmer || Magicka Nightblade || DPS || Level: CP 445
    Ra'Zahkara: AD || Khajiit || Stamina Dragonknight || DPS || Level: CP 445
    Ezra al-Khazir: DC || Redguard || Stamina Templar || DPS || Level: 40
    Erryndril Telvaux: EP || Dunmer || Magicka Dragonknight || DPS || Level: 25
    Uzara gra-Khalari: DC || Orc || Stamina Nightblade || DPS [2H/DW] || Level: 15
    Solomon Motierre: DC || Breton || Magicka Sorcerer || DPS || Level: 20
    Ragnar the Wulf: EP || Nord || Stamina Warden || DPS || Level: 30
    Ra'Rahku: AD || Khajiit || Stamina Nightblade || DPS [Bow/Bow] || Level: 15

    Healers
    Sees-through-Hist: EP || Argonian || Magicka Warden || Healer/CC || CP 445
    Daedalus the Artificer: AD || Altmer || Magicka Templar || Healer || Level: 15
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    The patches come faster than I can update this so if you see any mistake or are unsure about something please inform me.

    Updated for Murkmire
    Biggest changes:
    • No more Adrenaline Rush proccing from enchants/relequen -> Khajiit/Imperial back on being marginally better
    • Absorb Stamina enchant is now physical -> Put it on infused front bar bow everytime you need more sustain
    • Templars got Restoring focus ability to get more stamina sutain - needed skill
    • DKs got sustain passive related to cost of poison abilities - did no testing on this but use of Lethal arrow/acid spray or even trapping webs (if someone is synergising) is greatly recommended for the damage and cheap cost
    • Wardens got more sustain and cheaper skills
    • NB sustain got worse, but overall will be better or same as other classes
    • Crushing weapon cost reduced
      ... and probably many other changes slightly related to bow/bow performance
    PC | EU | AD
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    Just wanted to share this image detailing as exact (as I could make it) comparison between bow/bow warden and dw/bow warden. Those numbers work only in this vacuum, since those parses are nowhere optimized, flawless etc. But they are almost identical in execution and setup:
    • Same CP
    • Same rotation including skills (hail, PI, caltrops, channeled acceleration, sub assault, cutting dive and netch)
    • Same stats - used 1 dagger to keep same crit
    • Same gear - Velidreth, Relequen, Frontbarred NMG with backbar VMA bow
    • Same passives, race, range, etc...

    Now the only difference were weapon passives and other built-in advantages. Bow was infused with Absorb Stam so was one dagger on DW (so same enchant and same crit). DW got the advantage of second weapon (axe) in Nirn trait so majority of DPS increase in DW parse comes from having the passive bleed, having another enchant, having built-in weapon damage bonus (main hand + x% of off hand) and having another fully working trait (nirn on DW gives same weapon damage as on bow). Bow had its hawk eye, long shot and hasty retreat (obviously) werent in effect.

    The parses are cherry picked 2nd best from each (made 6 parses, deleted worst and best from each, screenshoted the other best and made average of those 4).
    Average bow: 44111
    Average DW: 47424


    In short, DW was stripped of its heavy attack advantage (there was no need for more sustain), melee+adrenaline rush advantage (same reason), skills advantage (mostly rending, but trap too) and slight gear advantage (cant do AY on bow for example) while bow stripped of its range advantage (both by the small dps boost from long shots and by being allowed to ignore some mechanics and stay on target in real fight) and slightly skill advantage (using snipe still performs better than pure sub assault/dive rotation)

    DW did on average 7.5% (or 3313) more DPS in these tests. Of that, usually 2-2.5k DPS comes just from the bleed and second enchant. Thats all assuming PTS problems, pings and my own skill (or lack of) affected all parses equally.
    ZlS4EGp.jpg

    // Last note: This doesnt mean much in the grand scheme of things. It just something I found insightful to test and share. Return all advantages and the gap gets bigger. Enter raid buff scenario and the more DPS you have the more you profit from buffs/debuffs so again bigger gap.
    Edited by SodanTok on November 6, 2018 12:35PM
    PC | EU | AD
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    By the way, on totally different note. If you have redguard and can reliably hit your velidreth (easy in some trials like SO, much more unreliable for me in CR for example) use it. Currently the only way to active your adrenaline rush, velidreth can give you around 80 stam/sec sustain on top of the more useful 129 weapon damage and slightly higher proc DPS over stormfist which has around 122 stam/sec sustain coming from the 129 recovery.
    PC | EU | AD
  • Vudokan
    Vudokan
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    Thinking of rolling up a bow build. I'm going to go Imperial. Which class should I go with? I main mag sorcs so that's the class I know best and I was thinking stam sorc but would love to hear your thoughts.
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    Vudokan wrote: »
    Thinking of rolling up a bow build. I'm going to go Imperial. Which class should I go with? I main mag sorcs so that's the class I know best and I was thinking stam sorc but would love to hear your thoughts.

    Stamsorc will do fine but will be the most boring from the bunch and knowing magsorc wont help you at all because you wont even be using class skills. You would use bound armor as stat boosting passive skill. Hurricane as the stamsorc skill would be used only in melee range. Bow ulti would still be imo better than atronach so your rotation would just be spamming snipes for 8s. Effective for DPS, but not very engaging. My personal preference is warden but all other classes have their advantages and are more engaging.
    PC | EU | AD
  • Vudokan
    Vudokan
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    SodanTok wrote: »

    So is it your opinion that any class can play a bow build effectively, and that the primary difference is in the level of engagement in the play/rotations? Maybe I will try a warden then. It might be fun to learn a new class, especially if my sorc experience is going to be pointless here. Thanks.
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    Vudokan wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »

    So is it your opinion that any class can play a bow build effectively, and that the primary difference is in the level of engagement in the play/rotations? Maybe I will try a warden then. It might be fun to learn a new class, especially if my sorc experience is going to be pointless here. Thanks.

    All classes will do close to same DPS given same advantages (so while NB, Warden get minor berserk and therefore more DPS in group with good uptime on combat prayer it wont matter much). If I simplify it, all classes will do over 40k DPS which for me means they are viable and effective at their job.
    PC | EU | AD
  • barbarian340
    barbarian340
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    SodanTok wrote: »
    Vudokan wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »

    So is it your opinion that any class can play a bow build effectively, and that the primary difference is in the level of engagement in the play/rotations? Maybe I will try a warden then. It might be fun to learn a new class, especially if my sorc experience is going to be pointless here. Thanks.

    All classes will do close to same DPS given same advantages (so while NB, Warden get minor berserk and therefore more DPS in group with good uptime on combat prayer it wont matter much). If I simplify it, all classes will do over 40k DPS which for me means they are viable and effective at their job.

    which are better for bow builds? DK or Warden, and why? and which race is better for the same? elves, imperial, or redguard, and why?
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    SodanTok wrote: »
    Vudokan wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »

    So is it your opinion that any class can play a bow build effectively, and that the primary difference is in the level of engagement in the play/rotations? Maybe I will try a warden then. It might be fun to learn a new class, especially if my sorc experience is going to be pointless here. Thanks.

    All classes will do close to same DPS given same advantages (so while NB, Warden get minor berserk and therefore more DPS in group with good uptime on combat prayer it wont matter much). If I simplify it, all classes will do over 40k DPS which for me means they are viable and effective at their job.

    which are better for bow builds? DK or Warden, and why? and which race is better for the same? elves, imperial, or redguard, and why?

    All is precisely explained (if there was need or I was able to explain it) in the main thread. I havent got to properly test DKs since they got that special poison passive so I can only with great bias say wardens are better since warden get easy ranged major fracture, get free minor berserk, get insane sustain and very good instant spammable (allowing them to get away from snipe). But DKs still DPS on same level.

    And race is well explained in the main post. Khajiit or Imperial because they get most damage (khajiit gets crit and imperial gets stamina and health - which means less stamina lost on putting health to good values). Bosmer are bad. Redguard are nearly as good as khajiit, imperial. Just simply worse (even if slightly)
    PC | EU | AD
  • barbarian340
    barbarian340
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    SodanTok wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Vudokan wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »

    So is it your opinion that any class can play a bow build effectively, and that the primary difference is in the level of engagement in the play/rotations? Maybe I will try a warden then. It might be fun to learn a new class, especially if my sorc experience is going to be pointless here. Thanks.

    All classes will do close to same DPS given same advantages (so while NB, Warden get minor berserk and therefore more DPS in group with good uptime on combat prayer it wont matter much). If I simplify it, all classes will do over 40k DPS which for me means they are viable and effective at their job.

    which are better for bow builds? DK or Warden, and why? and which race is better for the same? elves, imperial, or redguard, and why?

    All is precisely explained (if there was need or I was able to explain it) in the main thread. I havent got to properly test DKs since they got that special poison passive so I can only with great bias say wardens are better since warden get easy ranged major fracture, get free minor berserk, get insane sustain and very good instant spammable (allowing them to get away from snipe). But DKs still DPS on same level.

    And race is well explained in the main post. Khajiit or Imperial because they get most damage (khajiit gets crit and imperial gets stamina and health - which means less stamina lost on putting health to good values). Bosmer are bad. Redguard are nearly as good as khajiit, imperial. Just simply worse (even if slightly)

    thanks! sorry didnt know the OP was updated regularly
  • Marshall1289
    Marshall1289
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    @SodanTok You should edit your notes on survivabilty vs melee DD's, with changes to major evasion, you can now use elude for a 30ish second buff for aoe dmg mitigation effectively giving you the same if not more survivabilty vs a melee DD using blade cloak.

    Edit: I guess you plan on doing that because it is in the "not updated" section.

    I think bows are in a great place if there only about 7% behind in dps from melee DD. Bow's get the benefit of always being able to fight where as a melee will need to run around to get in range. You can think of that 7% behind as 7% more uptime on your dps.

    I feel it would be better to compare to a mag DD if you want a fully ranged bow build rather than comparing to sta melee DD as it should be slightly behind on a test dummy anyway.

    Question: This may have been asked before.. If you compared a bow warden to a bow NB and the NB chose to be fully ranged and not use any melee abilities, which would be stronger?

    It's sort of hard to compare unless you have someone to help you with a parse because NB doesn't have major fracture on a DMG skill and unless your perfect about your rotation, warden will get 100% uptime on minor berserk passively.

    If I have to force myself to be in melee range with a bow build for NB to be on par with their execute, I find it less interesting personally. Just a preference, I understand you need to be in melee range for a lot of fights.
    Edited by Marshall1289 on January 10, 2019 7:03PM
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    @SodanTok You should edit your notes on survivabilty vs melee DD's, with changes to major evasion, you can now use elude for a 30ish second buff for aoe dmg mitigation effectively giving you the same if not more survivabilty vs a melee DD using blade cloak.

    Edit: I guess you plan on doing that because it is in the "not updated" section.

    I think bows are in a great place if there only about 7% behind in dps from melee DD. Bow's get the benefit of always being able to fight where as a melee will need to run around to get in range. You can think of that 7% behind as 7% more uptime on your dps.

    I feel it would be better to compare to a mag DD if you want a fully ranged bow build rather than comparing to sta melee DD as it should be slightly behind on a test dummy anyway.

    Question: This may have been asked before.. If you compared a bow warden to a bow NB and the NB chose to be fully ranged and not use any melee abilities, which would be stronger?

    It's sort of hard to compare unless you have someone to help you with a parse because NB doesn't have major fracture on a DMG skill and unless your perfect about your rotation, warden will get 100% uptime on minor berserk passively.

    If I have to force myself to be in melee range with a bow build for NB to be on par with their execute, I find it less interesting personally. Just a preference, I understand you need to be in melee range for a lot of fights.

    This purpose of this guide kinda got lost with time. Back when I made it (november 2017) bow dps was at low point and very few knew how to do it. Past year gave bows more than I ever anticipated and everyone now knows how to play or build a bow build (still just for fun, but viable for any content). Thats why it is getting more more outdated and I try to keep just the most pressing things actual (mostly so new people can jump on it :D )
    Most of the problems of bow got solved in that time or other stuff got brought down (like shields not being as good and evasion not being as much needed and as you pointed out being available from medium armor)

    I agree they are in great place. Partly because in my mind great place simply means 40k DPS. They cant really rival ranged magDDs or stam melee DDs (tho i would like to see some 'expert' players try bow build in their fully optimized groups to see how much behind they actually are - something i cant ever really try ). Since I am doing most of testing and compares myself I cant really go the 'compare with mag dd' route as I would need to suddenly bring so many different buffs/debuffs to make fair settings and still account that I would probably do on something I have been doing for 3 years (bow/bow) vs something I have never really been doing (magDD :D )

    But to your question. I have quite outdated answer. Before all the buffs warden got in Murkmire, NB in snipeless rotation was noticeably better than warden in snipeless rotation. The buffs that warden got that patch really boosted that class a lot so they should be on par but back then I had limited time to do any significant large scale tests (i mostly focused on just warden - even didnt get to try buffed templars properly) and well ever since knowing about racial changes I cant bother to do any testing until new patch hits PTS so I dont have better answer for you. All I can say warden will feel better and more fun to use than nightblade - at least from my perspective - because playing ranged warden you have opportunity to use all the class defining tools while playing nightblade as pure ranged is stripping it of most of defining tools (execute, ulti, spammable).

    I will have better answer when new PTS comes.
    PC | EU | AD
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    In case someone was reading new racial balances and is interested to know what it means for bow (at least from my opinion)
    • Damage - Khajiit > Dark Elf > Orc > Redguard >= Bosmer
    • Sustain on Snipe rotation - Redguard > Bosmer > Orc > Khajiit > Dark Elf
    • Sustain on Cutting Dive/Crushing weapon rotation - Bosmer > Redguard > Orc > Khajiit > Dark Elf

    Various builds will benefit from each race differently, thats how close they will be. Something like stamsorc that spends most of rotation just using spammable (optimally snipe) will benefit greatly from redguard while warden that can do something more engaging with cutting dive/sub assault benefit slightly more from bosmer sustain.

    It also means classes that already have solid sustain (to a point of sustaining 3M parse with bistat food) can look for something with only small sustain but bigger damage (orc, khajiit). In other situations races like bosmer/redguard will allow to do it on other classes or when lacking DPS (or just to feel better in groups with less occurring shards/orbs). Then there is the khajiit that got stat bonus to stamina/health (and well magicka) meaning dubious just got even more efficient (you probably wont have to put much to health now).
    With some testing there probably be a superior choice, but currently it looks like the choices will be meaningful in different way (what you prefer more) and only insignificantly in damage output ;)
    Edited by SodanTok on January 17, 2019 10:06PM
    PC | EU | AD
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