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Everything needed to know about Bow/Bow in PVE - Scalebreaker Update

  • FrancisCrawford
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    Hi!

    I've never fully understood the love for the Maelstrom bow. The boost to Endless Hail would seem to start at a base of less than 200 per second per target, which seems low even if that's before crit, Thaumaturge and any other boost. The boost to weapon damage would seem to be less than 3% to DPS, and only on the bar where you have the bow.

    Is this really the difference between a good and bad build?
  • Jowrik
    Jowrik
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    SodanTok wrote: »

    Regarding skills
    Snipe is (unfortunately) the main spammable on bow builds. Warden is the only class that can use different skill (Cutting Dive). For all other classes you have choice of two morphs. Stam Sorc should always pick Focused Aim. Generally Focused Aim will always be better in situations without any other source of Minor Fracture and Lethal Arrow in rest. Pick what you prefer and what your usual group composition is.
    Then there is Acid Spray, this skill will always be damage gain if you use it once per rotation and can sustain him. It is not worth to move down a tier (of sustaining tools) for it in single target fights, but will be huge DPS gain in fights with many mobs or more bosses to a point where it may be worth it to use it every 6sec even if the price is more heavy attacking.
    As for the Lightweight trap. It is another problem that double dibs on ranged punishment (it is significantly worse because it is ranged, yet using bow is already worse itself). You can use the melee morph, but if you spend all the fights in melee range just to use the trap, there is no need to play bow builds. Now there are 3 usages of trap. Twice per rotation in some cases offers most DPS (but only if no sustain changes are needed), but makes rotation awkward and glitching. One per rotation is the golden standard, giving you around 60% of Minor Force uptime and pretty solid DoT (even better on stam sorc). Third option is to not use trap at all. This is very situational and is rarely worth it (but definitely try it if you have sustain problems, it may be better for DPS to drop it than to go down a tier).
    Last, but most important part. Always have endless hail on bar with Maelstrom bow and Poison Injection on bar with Master bow.

    What would you think about falout swapping Trap Beast with Hidden Dagger, making Hidden Dagger fall under the Fighters Guild tree and making it able to be selected as spammable (providing Major Brutality)? Seeing as Hidden Dagger is a ranged ability (weird for the DW tree) it seems more fitting next to Evil Hunter/Silver Bolts, whilst Trap Beast is mainly a close range ability for DW users (keep the Lightweight Trap morph for ranged DPS though). Trap Beast on the DW bar would also force a Bow/Bow user to either choose for a Bow Frontbar/DW (Cloak & Trap) backbar or choose for Bow/Bow without Minor Force accessible.

    Having Hidden Dagger on a Bow Bar would enable you to choose between longer range or AoE dmg for spammable (either fitting well with Bow).

    Still, I would much more prefer they reduce Snipe cast time to instant cast & reducing the damage aswell.
    Edited by Jowrik on December 26, 2017 2:06PM
    Nightblade - Khajiit - Rha'Viir
    PC - EU - Aldmeri Dominion
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    Jowrik wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »

    Regarding skills
    Snipe is (unfortunately) the main spammable on bow builds. Warden is the only class that can use different skill (Cutting Dive). For all other classes you have choice of two morphs. Stam Sorc should always pick Focused Aim. Generally Focused Aim will always be better in situations without any other source of Minor Fracture and Lethal Arrow in rest. Pick what you prefer and what your usual group composition is.
    Then there is Acid Spray, this skill will always be damage gain if you use it once per rotation and can sustain him. It is not worth to move down a tier (of sustaining tools) for it in single target fights, but will be huge DPS gain in fights with many mobs or more bosses to a point where it may be worth it to use it every 6sec even if the price is more heavy attacking.
    As for the Lightweight trap. It is another problem that double dibs on ranged punishment (it is significantly worse because it is ranged, yet using bow is already worse itself). You can use the melee morph, but if you spend all the fights in melee range just to use the trap, there is no need to play bow builds. Now there are 3 usages of trap. Twice per rotation in some cases offers most DPS (but only if no sustain changes are needed), but makes rotation awkward and glitching. One per rotation is the golden standard, giving you around 60% of Minor Force uptime and pretty solid DoT (even better on stam sorc). Third option is to not use trap at all. This is very situational and is rarely worth it (but definitely try it if you have sustain problems, it may be better for DPS to drop it than to go down a tier).
    Last, but most important part. Always have endless hail on bar with Maelstrom bow and Poison Injection on bar with Master bow.

    What would you think about falout swapping Trap Beast with Hidden Dagger, making Hidden Dagger fall under the Fighters Guild tree and making it able to be selected as spammable (providing Major Brutality)? Seeing as Hidden Dagger is a ranged ability (weird for the DW tree) it seems more fitting next to Evil Hunter/Silver Bolts, whilst Trap Beast is mainly a close range ability for DW users (keep the Lightweight Trap morph for ranged DPS though). Trap Beast on the DW bar would also force a Bow/Bow user to either choose for a Bow Frontbar/DW (Cloak & Trap) backbar or choose for Bow/Bow without Minor Force accessible.

    Having Hidden Dagger on a Bow Bar would enable you to choose between longer range or AoE dmg for spammable (either fitting well with Bow).

    Still, I would much more prefer they reduce Snipe cast time to instant cast & reducing the damage aswell.

    Regarding hidden dagger as skill, it really does not make sense why DW skill line has pretty good (imo better than cutting dive when you pick the shrouded morph) ranged spammable skill while bow has absolutely nothing (cutting dive being the only good one, snipe being pretty bad in combat but good for damage and silver shards just being trash overall).

    But removing minor force from bow would not be good way to go about this imo. Even tho the minor force source bow (lightweight trap) has is pretty bad (~60% uptime and costly) it is still better than not having it. Its not like bow are so good there needs to be trade off, ZoS could easily make trap better (offering at least 10sec of minor force) and giving proper spammable and bow builds would still be behind dw/bow.

    Btw bow front bar with DW backbar is not choice. It is impossible to do any DPS without hawkeye alone (which you would lose every swap), but losing the damage from light attacks on back (since DW is melee) would hurt a lot too.
    Edited by SodanTok on December 26, 2017 3:06PM
    PC | EU | AD
  • FakeFox
    FakeFox
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    I stopped reading when I saw "Dark Deal" being listed. No, for real this skill is utterly useless in PvE, better take more regen if you really need to.
    EU/PC (GER) 1200+ CP
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  • SodanTok
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    FakeFox wrote: »
    I stopped reading when I saw "Dark Deal" being listed. No, for real this skill is utterly useless in PvE, better take more regen if you really need to.

    So you stopped reading because you are so ignorant to information? Dark deal is bad, there is no denying it that. But we arent talking standard build here are we? Bow heavy attacks are bad too, so bad that using dark deal is not that much worse like normally.
    PC | EU | AD
  • FrancisCrawford
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    SodanTok wrote: »
    It starts with 161 damage bonus per tick and after each tick it increases by 56. It ticks around 20-22 times.

    That, if my math is correct, is 15141 bonus damage per target. So thats ~1500 more DPS per target before any buffs (and mitigation). It is around 3k more DPS fully buffed. Per one target.

    Nothing in this game gives DPS so cheeply. Most abilities deal actually less than 3k DPS. Best sets in this game like TFS needs 5 pieces and boost all your damage abilities while you already dealing good DPS (around 30k) to get 3k out of them.

    So the tooltip screenshots I've seen are wildly wrong. That explains my confusion.

    Thanks!!
  • SodanTok
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    Alright, now that I finally achieved flawless VMA run on bow/bow warden I feel this is good place as any (since vma is still pve) to offer some info. Most of it is pretty general and you will find it in any vma guide (and to greater depths).
    6XJTDsl.jpg

    Gear wise, I used exactly the same thing I recommend for normal pve (but the selfish version). TFS + 3 Agility + Stormfist + Master Bow + VMA Bow. It is exactly the amount of damage and sustain you may need.
    Now that does not mean you cant do better if you want. So if you are struggling with sustain equip that VO gear. If you need slightly more burst get that Velidreth (but beware of sustain strain), since stormfist wont always hit targets (i dislike the aiming of velidreth). If you dont have TFS, get the spriggan or even NMG set.
    Now Master Bow is very very good there. Does not mean you have to have it, but it will noticeably improve your speed of killing things.

    Skills are again nearly identical. Our usually free spot (where I recommend vigor/shimmer/ice fortress/...) should be always vigor and our usual AoE in form of Acid Spray can be easily (without any loss) replaced by shimmering shield. This skill is super crucial for defense against ranged mobs allowing you to focus on the truly dangerous. And yes, I used bear the whole run. It offers the best single target damage and cheapest (and good) single target ultimate, which matters a lot if you use it smartly (not to kill any mob, but get those crematorial guards and other dangerous mobs). The bear will survive every damage (and rarely gives you nature's gift passive proc) except Argonian scream in stage 7.

    For health, I had 17.5k on my last two nearly flawless runs and 18.5k on this one. The 1k more had no impact, but it also has no damage impact so feel free to pick whatever you like. Remember we have nearly constant uptime on Maturation passive so we have 10% more health (the values I listed are pre buff btw).

    Now for being vampire. I absolutely recommend you keep vampire at stages 2-3 till the end of poison area (level 7). And then blood mary yourself (food that reduces stage - once you get to stage1 dont forget to get dubious drink again). If you dont want to or cant do it this way, definitely feed beforehand, the 10% regen, while helpful, is in no way worth the fire damage in last two stages.

    It is nothing groundbreaking. VMA has been done to death (and without) by many people (even some bow builds) so look for general advices from them (I know there is very good guide right here in this forum section). In the end, VMA as content is very mechanics based (learning them is better than having more DPS, sustain or survivability)
    PC | EU | AD
  • AverageJo3Gam3r
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    I don't think that bow/bow in vet trials is necessary forbidden. One of my buddies is in my progression guild and runs bow/bow. We've completed all craglorn trials and HM vSO. We're starting on HM vHRC when we come back from the holidays. He hasn't died more than anyone else so far even though he lacks blade cloak and shields. Maybe the harder trials will be different. Running a major armor buff is necessary, IMO, though, to compensate.
    Edited by AverageJo3Gam3r on December 28, 2017 2:53PM
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    I don't think that bow/bow in vet trials is necessary forbidden. One of my buddies is in my progression guild and runs bow/bow. We've completed all craglorn trials and HM vSO. We're starting on HM vHRC when we come back from the holidays. He hasn't died more than anyone else so far even though he lacks blade cloak and shields. Maybe the harder trials will be different. Running a major armor buff is necessary, IMO, though, to compensate.

    Oh I am pretty sure you can run bow/bow in trials, but the disadvantage of survivability greatly increases what you have to do (understand mechanics to the point, avoid all red) and/or what healer has to go through. At least in the craglorn trials it should be doable using bow/bow. But I just feel there is too much (barely avoidable) AoE damage in trials like HoF.

    Basically everybody that knows enough to say "I can do this content even tho this guide recommends against it" is probably capable enough (or arrogant :D). Everyone else that is not sure should simply not do them.
    Edited by SodanTok on December 28, 2017 3:07PM
    PC | EU | AD
  • AcadianPaladin
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    Must say I've been enjoying this thread since it started. Much of it is beyond my goals but there is certainly loads of helpful info. Thanks!

    Though my primary character and passion is a healplar, I run a modest bow/bow stamsorc Bosmer as well. Her gear is simple but effective (Hundingsx5, SprigsX5, Selenesx1). She can comfortably solo all quests, delves, public dungeons and even very carefully solo a dark anchor. WB's are beyond her ability to solo and she cannot quite solo the 7 group delves in Craglorn. She is a blast to play though. She packs very strong opening damage and sustained damage for a short time. She also has superb crowd control. Her limits are her crowd controls are useless vs most bosses and sustain limits quickly drop her dps off a cliff if a fight lasts very long. The main thing is that I consider her a very fun but limited character if taken beyond her 'scout/sniper' niche. I would never advertise her as 'group dps'. In fact I prefer to solo her and only group rarely with friends who know what she can (and cannot) do. As you can see, she's not in the same league as some of the setups discussed here.
    PC NA (PvE)
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    Must say I've been enjoying this thread since it started. Much of it is beyond my goals but there is certainly loads of helpful info. Thanks!

    Though my primary character and passion is a healplar, I run a modest bow/bow stamsorc Bosmer as well. Her gear is simple but effective (Hundingsx5, SprigsX5, Selenesx1). She can comfortably solo all quests, delves, public dungeons and even very carefully solo a dark anchor. WB's are beyond her ability to solo and she cannot quite solo the 7 group delves in Craglorn. She is a blast to play though. She packs very strong opening damage and sustained damage for a short time. She also has superb crowd control. Her limits are her crowd controls are useless vs most bosses and sustain limits quickly drop her dps off a cliff if a fight lasts very long. The main thing is that I consider her a very fun but limited character if taken beyond her 'scout/sniper' niche. I would never advertise her as 'group dps'. In fact I prefer to solo her and only group rarely with friends who know what she can (and cannot) do. As you can see, she's not in the same league as some of the setups discussed here.

    And that is the healthy way of playing MMO. Play however you want, but always with regard to people you play with :)
    PC | EU | AD
  • MonarchChief
    MonarchChief
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    @MonarchChief

    Posting to save thread to come back to.
    Caelonas Barkstrider Bosmer Nightblade AD DPS (S)
    Adriénne Clairmont Breton Templar AD Healer
    Darhk Chokolete Redguard Dragonknight AD Tank
    Aureline Direnni Altmer Sorceror AD DPS (M)
    Haasvahlok Argonian Warden AD ??? please help
  • exiars10
    exiars10
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    Hello.

    This is one of the best ESO guides at least for me as a new player (2 months / 319 hours in game as per Steam). I always play as archer in RPGs and here I play typical Bosmer Bow/DW stamina Nightblade – I use Alcast build with minor modifications. And I became really bored.

    My current setup is: 2x Kra‘gh (heavy head + medium shoulders) + 4x Hunding‘s Rage (3x armor + weapons) + 5x Spriggan (2x armor + 3x jewelry). I want to switch to bow/bow with the least possible cost, so I guess adding Hundin‘s Rage shoulders and another bow is ok for the full setup bonuses?
    Bow I already use is sharpened with disease enchant and I would craft another one with infused and poison enchant.

    I don‘t play trials (both normal and veteran) and I don‘t care about them. I hardly even play veteran dungeons (only from the base game, not DLCs). So basically your typical average overland/public dungeons/dolmens/delves/world bosses/quests player. That also mean I don‘t have access to special bows (Maelstrom, Asylum, Master) and probably will never.

    My another question is about skill bars. Please suggest better if possible. This is how I see it from experience and reading this fantastic thread:
    1. Lethal Arrow – Endless Hail – Leeching Strikes – Razor Caltrops – Rearming Trap / Ballista
    2. Acid Spray – Poison Injection – Resolving Vigor – Killer‘s Blade – Relentless Focus / Flawless Dawnbreaker

    Any suggestion is welcomed :).
    Edited by exiars10 on January 23, 2018 1:28PM
    I don't play ESO since 15.06. because Cyrodiil is broken since Summerset (PvE isn't much better, too)...

    Aldmeri Dominion (PC Europe via Steam)

    The cowardly Wood Elves are best noted for their unwillingness to engage in a face-to-face attack; a Bosmer will strike at you from every side except the front. You won't cross swords with a Bosmer, but you might catch an arrow in the throat. Be wary in forests and jungles, and watch your back.
  • SodanTok
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    @exiars10

    Your first thing to do is not use kragh anymore. It does not suit ranged or AoE playstyle at all. Since you wont have any special weapon or trial gear your best course of action is to have 2 5 piece sets and just 1 monster piece (here kragh would be the best). Hunding + Spriggan sounds like the best combo in this situation.

    Your bars are fine. If you find yourself out of range to properly use rearming trap, change it to lightweight. Same with killers blade (except nothing to replace it with).

    The only problem I see is that your bars arent organized properly. You need stuff you cast less (~once every 10s) on your 2nd bar with your ballista. Stuff that gives you necessary buffs and stuff that you spam, should be on your main bar.
    So always have Lethal Arrow, Acid Spray, Relentless Focus, Flawless Dawnbreaker and (if you still use it) killers blade on your main bar. The rest can be on 2nd.

    //edit: Last note, you really dont need to change anything about your bow. True, infused is best single target and almost necessary for redguard. Nirnhoned is great too for the AoE. But it is very insigifnicant when all you do is overland or normal dungeons. So, if you already have gold bow dont waste money making new one.
    Edited by SodanTok on January 23, 2018 2:56PM
    PC | EU | AD
  • JobooAGS
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    Hmm, I get 31k self buffed on my bowden using vo, agility and stormfist with a vma and vdsa bow. I have these skills on my bars.
    vma bar: lightweight trap, hail, caltrops, ice fortress, mushrooms, bear
    vdsa bar: beetles, birds, poison injection, green lotus, netch, bear. can swap vdsa bar bear with fdb, and vma bear with ballista
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Hmm, I get 31k self buffed on my bowden using vo, agility and stormfist with a vma and vdsa bow. I have these skills on my bars.
    vma bar: lightweight trap, hail, caltrops, ice fortress, mushrooms, bear
    vdsa bar: beetles, birds, poison injection, green lotus, netch, bear. can swap vdsa bar bear with fdb, and vma bear with ballista

    In case someone else is reading this, replied in https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4808389/#Comment_4808389
    PC | EU | AD
  • exiars10
    exiars10
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    @SodanTok

    Thank you for your answer. +Insightful from me.

    Yes, I‘m going to use only one Kra‘gh (heavy head) as I wrote and I will craft Hunding‘s Rage shoulders and primary bow. And as I wrote I have one (golden) Hunding‘s Rage bow which I already use with DW. I will craft another one (primary) for the front bar. I plan to join strong trader guild to sell huge stockpile of various materials so crafting material is not a problem :).

    Yea, proposed skill bar was a bit mess and provisional but that‘s why I asked what to do. Killer‘s Blade in my experience is a must to finish of charging but cripled melee enemies.

    Thank you again and I will report next week how went/is going.

    I have one more related question – what do you think about using PvP sets in PvE but keep in mind my case – no Veteran DLC group dungeons and no trials? I was looking about it but pieces of information are outdated.

    For example Alliance War sets: Hawk‘s Eye, Kyne‘s Kiss (5th bonus looks bad to me) and The Morag Tong. HE and TMT look probably deceptionally good. And then there is Vicecanon of Venom which sounds good as I use a lot of sneak (Bosmer + stealing + legerdemain and so on ;)).
    I don't play ESO since 15.06. because Cyrodiil is broken since Summerset (PvE isn't much better, too)...

    Aldmeri Dominion (PC Europe via Steam)

    The cowardly Wood Elves are best noted for their unwillingness to engage in a face-to-face attack; a Bosmer will strike at you from every side except the front. You won't cross swords with a Bosmer, but you might catch an arrow in the throat. Be wary in forests and jungles, and watch your back.
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    @exiars10

    Some PVP sets are good, some ok and some bad. Morag Tong is definitely one of the best (and imo most interesting) when you go acid spray, lethal arrow, poison enchant, poison injection route.

    Kyne kiss is underrated set. It procs even on bow light attack, which many people do not know. It is still just sustain set so nobody would ever want it in PVE (and too unreliable in PVP), but yes you can use it and get something out of it.

    And Hawk eye is pretty solid set. Not better than hunding or spriggan at all (but neither are the 2 other), gives little damage, little sustain. No harm in using it in the easier ingame content

    But vicecannon is overall bad. I mean sneaking overall is bad in pve, but even if you use it then its bad. Most enemies dont even live that long.
    PC | EU | AD
  • zerlis
    zerlis
    Soul Shriven
    @SodanTok

    I've been looking to swap my magsorc to be a bow/bow sorc, and do half decent dps with. I don't have the VMA or Master's bow yet, so what sets would be best to use for dps without the vma/master's bow? Twice fanged, hundings, and krag hlem? Or something different?
  • JobooAGS
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    SodanTok wrote: »
    @exiars10

    Some PVP sets are good, some ok and some bad. Morag Tong is definitely one of the best (and imo most interesting) when you go acid spray, lethal arrow, poison enchant, poison injection route.

    Kyne kiss is underrated set. It procs even on bow light attack, which many people do not know. It is still just sustain set so nobody would ever want it in PVE (and too unreliable in PVP), but yes you can use it and get something out of it.

    And Hawk eye is pretty solid set. Not better than hunding or spriggan at all (but neither are the 2 other), gives little damage, little sustain. No harm in using it in the easier ingame content

    But vicecannon is overall bad. I mean sneaking overall is bad in pve, but even if you use it then its bad. Most enemies dont even live that long.

    hawk eye seems like a great set as it buffs your hail, injection and potentially snipe damage, is it because it is missing crit that it is problemmatic?
  • SodanTok
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    zerlis wrote: »
    @SodanTok

    I've been looking to swap my magsorc to be a bow/bow sorc, and do half decent dps with. I don't have the VMA or Master's bow yet, so what sets would be best to use for dps without the vma/master's bow? Twice fanged, hundings, and krag hlem? Or something different?

    In this case, it would easily be TFS. Just from assumptions you arent running with any endgame optimized trial group since you dont have these weapons, so there is no problem with having too much penetration. That would be the body pieces (dont use it on weapon). Spriggan if you cant use TFS.

    As for helm, same reason as above, would still go for kragh, since there probably still is not too much penetration. Second choice would be velidreth or kena. Thats just 1 piece ofc.

    And the 2nd set could be anything really. VO for good damage and good sustain. Hunding/Briarheart for very good damage. Automaton even, since you are stam sorc.

    Obv you still can do the magicka dd way. Which is 1 5piece set, 4 piece with slayer and monster set. That would be again TFS, but this time 4 pieces of VO (or war machine or alkosh) and then Stormfist. And you would perform same as with gear above, maybe even slightly better (stormfist is just so good on stam sorc)
    Edited by SodanTok on January 25, 2018 10:49AM
    PC | EU | AD
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    exiars10

    Some PVP sets are good, some ok and some bad. Morag Tong is definitely one of the best (and imo most interesting) when you go acid spray, lethal arrow, poison enchant, poison injection route.

    Kyne kiss is underrated set. It procs even on bow light attack, which many people do not know. It is still just sustain set so nobody would ever want it in PVE (and too unreliable in PVP), but yes you can use it and get something out of it.

    And Hawk eye is pretty solid set. Not better than hunding or spriggan at all (but neither are the 2 other), gives little damage, little sustain. No harm in using it in the easier ingame content

    But vicecannon is overall bad. I mean sneaking overall is bad in pve, but even if you use it then its bad. Most enemies dont even live that long.

    hawk eye seems like a great set as it buffs your hail, injection and potentially snipe damage, is it because it is missing crit that it is problemmatic?

    It is because it has 5% damage. Which is additive with everything else (like 25% from passive, or x% from CP), so in reality it buffs your damage by like 3%.
    PC | EU | AD
  • Toc de Malsvi
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    SodanTok wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    exiars10

    Some PVP sets are good, some ok and some bad. Morag Tong is definitely one of the best (and imo most interesting) when you go acid spray, lethal arrow, poison enchant, poison injection route.

    Kyne kiss is underrated set. It procs even on bow light attack, which many people do not know. It is still just sustain set so nobody would ever want it in PVE (and too unreliable in PVP), but yes you can use it and get something out of it.

    And Hawk eye is pretty solid set. Not better than hunding or spriggan at all (but neither are the 2 other), gives little damage, little sustain. No harm in using it in the easier ingame content

    But vicecannon is overall bad. I mean sneaking overall is bad in pve, but even if you use it then its bad. Most enemies dont even live that long.

    hawk eye seems like a great set as it buffs your hail, injection and potentially snipe damage, is it because it is missing crit that it is problemmatic?

    It is because it has 5% damage. Which is additive with everything else (like 25% from passive, or x% from CP), so in reality it buffs your damage by like 3%.

    Plus Marksmen adds 8% damage for pvp and 5% cost reduction to all stamina abilities instead of just bow. So if going for damage+cost reduction in PVP Marksman>Hawkeye in virtually every application.
    Legendary Archer of Valenwood
    Bosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Templar's are evil..
  • Ollowaiin2
    Ollowaiin2
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    Hi,
    I was looking for copper and found Gold. Since there will be a nerf to Off Balance in the next patch, maybe magicka DDs are going to become unnecessary. That will put Bow-Bow builds in a much better position. A normal stam DD can simply Switch to Bow-Bow in the following situations: the mage, vMoL 1st boss, Mantikora (spear Group), maybe Sanctorium is an exception. 1 Healer can Switch to Infallible Aether Set instead of worm.
    Without dps testing so far, I think about stam NB and stam Warden as viable Options, due to their good sustain. Maybe run 5xHundings, 5xVO, Master-Maelstrom Bow?
    I am curious what you think about that Topic.
    Cheers
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    ✭✭
    Ollowaiin2 wrote: »
    Hi,
    I was looking for copper and found Gold. Since there will be a nerf to Off Balance in the next patch, maybe magicka DDs are going to become unnecessary. That will put Bow-Bow builds in a much better position. A normal stam DD can simply Switch to Bow-Bow in the following situations: the mage, vMoL 1st boss, Mantikora (spear Group), maybe Sanctorium is an exception. 1 Healer can Switch to Infallible Aether Set instead of worm.
    Without dps testing so far, I think about stam NB and stam Warden as viable Options, due to their good sustain. Maybe run 5xHundings, 5xVO, Master-Maelstrom Bow?
    I am curious what you think about that Topic.
    Cheers

    I dont think much changes regarding this. Most of the time the DPS is worth the 'problem' of melee. Often the melee ones are even better at surviving than ranged bow/bow would. For example on mage, it would probably be worth it if 4 out of 8 melee DD switch to ranged setup, but such groups does not exist, they will already take max 4 melee dd I assume (not really experienced raider) and its fine with that.

    stamNB will pull the best numbers definitely. Next patch favors it even more because of the grim focus changes (at least for me, it was very difficult even to get 2 arrow shots in single cast). Also snipe goes from 50% snare to 25%, which will make it much more desirable in very mobile fights.

    VO may be slightly overkill sustain wise (on NB). If there is no place for support set like NMG and also enough penetration so TFS is obsolete, then yes if going for 5/5/1 that will be fine. It also makes changing from dw/bow to bow/bow much easier.
    Edited by SodanTok on January 27, 2018 10:13PM
    PC | EU | AD
  • Ollowaiin2
    Ollowaiin2
    ✭✭✭
    Hi @SodanTok ,
    SodanTok wrote: »
    I dont think much changes regarding this. Most of the time the DPS is worth the 'problem' of melee. Often the melee ones are even better at surviving than ranged bow/bow would. For example on mage, it would probably be worth it if 4 out of 8 melee DD switch to ranged setup, but such groups does not exist, they will already take max 4 melee dd I assume (not really experienced raider) and its fine with that.
    That's what I mean. 8 melee stam DDs whenever it is possible. 4 Switch to BowBow build in certain situations.
    Usually raids adjust their setup really fast, as soon ad they see Something is doing more dps.
    We still have to test, if stam DDs are suffering from heavy attack dps loss due to off balance nerf and now the mag nb is doing.
    SodanTok wrote: »
    stamNB will pull the best numbers definitely. Next patch favors it even more because of the grim focus changes (at least for me, it was very difficult even to get 2 arrow shots in single cast). Also snipe goes from 50% snare to 25%, which will make it much more desirable in very mobile fights.
    .

    Ok, good to know that. I
    SodanTok wrote: »
    VO may be slightly overkill sustain wise (on NB). If there is no place for support set like NMG and also enough penetration so TFS is obsolete, then yes if going for 5/5/1 that will be fine. It also makes changing from dw/bow to bow/bow much easier.

    The bowbow rangers could wear support setups and allow the melee camp to wear full dps setups.
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Ollowaiin2 wrote: »
    Hi SodanTok ,
    SodanTok wrote: »
    I dont think much changes regarding this. Most of the time the DPS is worth the 'problem' of melee. Often the melee ones are even better at surviving than ranged bow/bow would. For example on mage, it would probably be worth it if 4 out of 8 melee DD switch to ranged setup, but such groups does not exist, they will already take max 4 melee dd I assume (not really experienced raider) and its fine with that.
    That's what I mean. 8 melee stam DDs whenever it is possible. 4 Switch to BowBow build in certain situations.
    Usually raids adjust their setup really fast, as soon ad they see Something is doing more dps.
    We still have to test, if stam DDs are suffering from heavy attack dps loss due to off balance nerf and now the mag nb is doing.
    SodanTok wrote: »
    stamNB will pull the best numbers definitely. Next patch favors it even more because of the grim focus changes (at least for me, it was very difficult even to get 2 arrow shots in single cast). Also snipe goes from 50% snare to 25%, which will make it much more desirable in very mobile fights.
    .

    Ok, good to know that. I
    SodanTok wrote: »
    VO may be slightly overkill sustain wise (on NB). If there is no place for support set like NMG and also enough penetration so TFS is obsolete, then yes if going for 5/5/1 that will be fine. It also makes changing from dw/bow to bow/bow much easier.

    The bowbow rangers could wear support setups and allow the melee camp to wear full dps setups.

    Yeah I see what you mean, but I think the only thing that changes will be more stam nb instead of stam sorcs or stam dks and more magblades instead of magsorcs. The number of magicka and stamina builds will stay +/- same. It really depends on what kind of 'raid' it is. If its on the early kind of level, they wont care enough and most of them wont be even able to properly DPS on bow. If its on the opposite side of going for the best score, getting group composition so you never have too many melee will be always better than having melee that switch to bow. Bigger risk of dying and big loss (for them) of DPS.

    But in the middle. I can see it. Groups that care about results, but not enough to all have their stam char and mag char and jumping to meta classes.

    And yes, bow/bow setup would be at the best position to wear support sets. NMG obviously the clear winner, because it does not require heavy attacks and the AoE is also slightly better on bow than on dw (mostly because of acid spray). Then war machine with warden bear, giving major slayer to others (and mostly other ranged setups, that rarely get this benefit, since bear is like the only cheap ranged ulti if i am not mistaken)

    //edit:
    Anyway, that will be all for them to decide. I have no experience with really serious raiding so all I can see it theoretical advantage of having bow build (even if as backup). Given the negative view on bow, your group has to really be prepared and fully understanding of how it works, because if they aren't the one bringing their bow to vet trial will be the one eating all the blame.
    Edited by SodanTok on January 27, 2018 10:56PM
    PC | EU | AD
  • krachall
    krachall
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    As much as I'd like bow/bow to work, there are two main problems. The first is pretty basic and clear: lack of a good stamina ranged spammable. Snipe's agonizingly long cycle makes it a poor choice and everything else is magicka based if it's ranged.

    The second problem is the same problem faced by every other non-meta build: there's just no place for it.

    Content is either so easy (normal non-DLC, vet non-DLC, and normal DLC) that virtually any build (or no real build at all will work) or hard enough (vet DLCs, vet trials) that someone doing suboptimal DPS is either a detriment to the group or being carried by someone with over-optimal DPS.

    It's a shame that the bow isn't the stamina equivalent to the staff. I'm personally tired of entering a trial and seeing 10 staff users, a tank, and me. This game really has become Elder Staves Online.
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    krachall wrote: »
    As much as I'd like bow/bow to work, there are two main problems. The first is pretty basic and clear: lack of a good stamina ranged spammable. Snipe's agonizingly long cycle makes it a poor choice and everything else is magicka based if it's ranged.

    The second problem is the same problem faced by every other non-meta build: there's just no place for it.

    Content is either so easy (normal non-DLC, vet non-DLC, and normal DLC) that virtually any build (or no real build at all will work) or hard enough (vet DLCs, vet trials) that someone doing suboptimal DPS is either a detriment to the group or being carried by someone with over-optimal DPS.

    It's a shame that the bow isn't the stamina equivalent to the staff. I'm personally tired of entering a trial and seeing 10 staff users, a tank, and me. This game really has become Elder Staves Online.

    Well there is obv cutting dive (and sub assault) on warden. The snipe is also great spammable. I know people dislike it, but thats because they have problem getting used to it. Properly weaved snipe performs better than any spammable in the game. And to this day, the main drawback of it was the 1s long 50% self snare, which got reduced to 25%. Which is putting it very close to all other melee spammables with cast/channel time (flurry, heavy attacks, wrecking blow on 2H builds) that have no speed reduction.

    But yes, there is no place for bow/bow, because they never bring anything new. Really, the only place for bow/bow in trials is if you are bringing more DPS than other stamina setups. Which happens only in less serious vet trial groups. Or you are bringing enough not to be detrimental, which could happen in slightly more serious groups, but still not for the best. I can easily see situations where having 20% less DPS, but constantly can perform as good as that melee setup that has to move a lot (vAS kinda comes in mind).
    Did not have chance to do vAS on bow build, since I only run bear warden currently, and bear simply does not work in vAS (and losing it is such big dps loss, that i dont bother)
    Edited by SodanTok on January 27, 2018 11:06PM
    PC | EU | AD
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