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Everything needed to know about Bow/Bow in PVE - Scalebreaker Update

  • Toc de Malsvi
    Toc de Malsvi
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    SodanTok wrote: »
    Probably guide how to transition to magicka/melee stups :|

    what? bow got 3 new skills to work with, soul trap, Lightweight Trap Beast, which got a buff and will probably be awesome to use now and shadow silk, which got a 75% damage increase. come on, there has to be something there.

    The other morph of trap does almost double the damage and has almost double the buff duration for only 7% more cost.

    From my testing:

    Melee trap for 2750 stam:
    18 seconds Minor Force
    50k total damage

    Ranged Trap for 2555 stam:
    10 seconds minor force
    26k total damage

    So you need to spend almost twice the stam for the same value. Except Bow weapon damage is lower and Trap doesn't scale with Hawkeye so its actually worse.


    sure sure, but you don't have to be in melee range to use lightweight.

    Right so range stam has considerably less weapon damage to start. Then you halve the skills they can use. Cause Bow/Bow was so threatening to melee dominance.

    I run Bosmer DK primarily so I expect a certain amount of loss due to choices. But the loss keeps getting bigger. I'm almost certain werewolves would do as much or more than most Bow/Bow setups.
    Legendary Archer of Valenwood
    Bosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Templar's are evil..
  • DoonerSeraph
    DoonerSeraph
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    Yeah, lost 6k on my stamsorc setup, probably will swap razor caltrops for anti cavalry for the extra duration, and test arrow barrage... Losses seem huge yet again.
  • Sanguinor2
    Sanguinor2
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    Yeah, lost 6k on my stamsorc setup, probably will swap razor caltrops for anti cavalry for the extra duration, and test arrow barrage... Losses seem huge yet again.

    Drop caltrops for pve. Not worth running anymore.
    Politeness is respecting others.
    Courage is doing what is fair.
    Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
    Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
    Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
    Honor is keeping ones word.
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    SodanTok wrote: »
    Probably guide how to transition to magicka/melee stups :|

    what? bow got 3 new skills to work with, soul trap, Lightweight Trap Beast, which got a buff and will probably be awesome to use now and shadow silk, which got a 75% damage increase. come on, there has to be something there.

    That was mostly a joke :D yes we got some new tools to use, but unfortunately its not much about dps bowbow can do but how far it is from magicka or stam melee setups. Every new tool is by nature stronger on melee build. Every new dot just empowered vma DW too.

    But obviously there will still be way to play as there was 2 years ago when the gap was like 15-20%
    PC | EU | AD
  • Mendosa
    Mendosa
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    Soul trap, Trap Beast, Shadow Silk... You realize this is no longer a bow build, right? It's becoming a ranged stamina build. I love Bow/Bow build because I love Bow. I want to be an archer. :/

    If I'm going to have to use other skills, can you give me a reason to not to be a magicka character instead?
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    Mendosa wrote: »
    Soul trap, Trap Beast, Shadow Silk... You realize this is no longer a bow build, right? It's becoming a ranged stamina build. I love Bow/Bow build because I love Bow. I want to be an archer. :/

    If I'm going to have to use other skills, can you give me a reason to not to be a magicka character instead?

    The theme of this patch is that you will use all skills everyone else is using, but:
    • less damage than melee builds
    • flat out worse than the skill melee build is going to use
    • wishing you could use some of the skills melee builds will be using

    Even something like Acid Spray, our overly expensive aoe skill benefiting from bow passives is weaker compared to shadow silk, aoe skill with synergy available to all. The amount of new strong abilities already seems to be pushing out any time to use anything like snipe on warden or necro and possibly nightblade further making every build look identical
    PC | EU | AD
  • Jephry
    Jephry
    @SodanTok Any updates? I am sad that my bow/bow warden will be once again relegated to a "Why would you even play that?!" status... :'(
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    We just got fixed Hail so it was impossible to test anything but dont worry, it wont be end of the world @Jephry The gap between stam melee and stam bow is going to be huge, true, but it shouldnt be far from magicka still. I expect around 90k dps on trial dummy achievable from the same players that are getting above 100k on melee.
    PC | EU | AD
  • Jephry
    Jephry
    I'm on console (PS4), and only just hit 60k with my magplar on the trial dummy. If I can get anywhere near 90k with my warden, I'll be pretty darn excited!
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    Mini Update (stuff can change and better people than me can figure out something I havent realized)

    - Poison Injection is now the most important skill and keeping good uptime on it is crucial
    - Lightweight Trap is too good to pass DoT and using it already kinda negates advantage of Tzogvin so we use trap fo Minor Force and keeping good uptime on it is important
    - Soul Trap is must have skill. Does a lot of damage and also costs magicka, which helps with sustain
    - With all the above, its quite clear 10s rotation is probably best option and that makes Barrage the better skill to use than Endless Hail
    - With Barrage being used VMA Bow isnt doing much (its actually doing worse than monster set procs) so Master Bow is going to replace it
    - With tzogvin potentially totally out of picture new set to replace it is going to be Tooth of Lokkestiiz for obvious reasons of overperforming other options but when there arent many synergies some other might be better. Cant say for sure if Tzogvin is totally bad or not, but I suspect Deadly Strikes is better option.
    - 10s rotation allows for around 9-10 skill casts and 4 of them are already predetermined (see above) so rest will be mostly class based. Generally you want to reserve 2 of the spots for either Acid Spray or Shadow Silk. Shadow Silk does more damage than Acid Spray and offers synergy to group members, but Acid Spray feels somewhat better to use plus can be used as spammable or can fit rotation better (shadow silk lasts 5s while acid 4s)

    Obviously dynamic rotation might perform better. With 14s hail one will have to recasts traps or poison injection in weird moments since both last 10s and both are important. But who has time for that, right?
    Edited by SodanTok on July 17, 2019 7:52PM
    PC | EU | AD
  • goldenarcher1
    goldenarcher1
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    I miss caltrops already. :'(

    Buffed for Elsweyr,nerf-hammered in next patch. :|
  • Earrindo
    Earrindo
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    SodanTok, I'm sure you're quite busy, but I am just wondering, would you be willing to estimate an approximate dps loss assuming no changes to ones build post patch?
    So, after this nonsense goes live, and I keep on with Tzogvin, vma back bar and relequen, with the same skills (warden) as on live currently, what's the hit going to (approximately) be?
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    Earrindo wrote: »
    SodanTok, I'm sure you're quite busy, but I am just wondering, would you be willing to estimate an approximate dps loss assuming no changes to ones build post patch?
    So, after this nonsense goes live, and I keep on with Tzogvin, vma back bar and relequen, with the same skills (warden) as on live currently, what's the hit going to (approximately) be?

    Hard to estimate anything but making just the total basic changes (swap caltrops for soul trap for example) could be 10-15% DPS loss.

    Thankfully just starting to use soul trap, light trap and replacing tzogvin is going to mitigate most of the loss. Changing to 10s rotation or making sure to keep good uptime on Poison Injection and Trap in 14s rotation should be enough to almost not notice loss.
    PC | EU | AD
  • Earrindo
    Earrindo
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    Would it be reasonable to replace caltrops with soul trap, and keep tzogvins? or would a different set coupled with trap really be that major an upgrade?
    I only ask because ive always had a really difficult time placing trap properly, and Tzogvins was a real godssend for me to not have to muck about with it.
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    Earrindo wrote: »
    Would it be reasonable to replace caltrops with soul trap, and keep tzogvins? or would a different set coupled with trap really be that major an upgrade?
    I only ask because ive always had a really difficult time placing trap properly, and Tzogvins was a real godssend for me to not have to muck about with it.

    I mean. As long as you arent using trap at all its still good set. And if you use trap and still struggle to place it its also going to be good set :D

    But yeah def replace catrops with soul trap at least and probably hail with barrage or make sure to keep poison injection up and it will be okay. Not great, but okay.
    Edited by SodanTok on July 23, 2019 6:05PM
    PC | EU | AD
  • Earrindo
    Earrindo
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    I mean, I have a master bow, so poison injection uptime and swapping to barrage aren't an issue.

    I just don't want to have to give up my class abilities really, anything else is fair game. I know dw/bow setups are having to make a lot of changes, and I was worried that bow/bow would be similarly afflicted.
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    Earrindo wrote: »
    I mean, I have a master bow, so poison injection uptime and swapping to barrage aren't an issue.

    I just don't want to have to give up my class abilities really, anything else is fair game. I know dw/bow setups are having to make a lot of changes, and I was worried that bow/bow would be similarly afflicted.

    Every build in this game is affected. Every build will be slotting nonclass abilities. Only way bow is unaffected is that bow is unaffected by the dps every other build is getting and instead is losing dps :D
    PC | EU | AD
  • AcadianPaladin
    AcadianPaladin
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    I've always kind of liked the Fighters Guild Crossbow skill and even looked at it as a spam skill. Trouble was the cost vs damage was poor. I notice the PTS patch notes look like they are giving the crossbow more damage and lower cost. Is there any chance that the skill could become a valid consideration? My bow/bow sorc is not real impressed with the overall direction of Snipe and a sorc doesn't have too many alternatives to spam. Neither PI nor Barrage are ideal for that.

    Big thanks to @SodanTok for actively managing this thread. It has always been super valuable for my three bowbow girls and even more so now with the upcoming patch and its pervasive nerfs.
    PC NA (PvE)
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    I've always kind of liked the Fighters Guild Crossbow skill and even looked at it as a spam skill. Trouble was the cost vs damage was poor. I notice the PTS patch notes look like they are giving the crossbow more damage and lower cost. Is there any chance that the skill could become a valid consideration? My bow/bow sorc is not real impressed with the overall direction of Snipe and a sorc doesn't have too many alternatives to spam. Neither PI nor Barrage are ideal for that.

    Big thanks to SodanTok for actively managing this thread. It has always been super valuable for my three bowbow girls and even more so now with the upcoming patch and its pervasive nerfs.

    Most classes will have lack of barspace or time in rotation to actually use any normal spammable like that but Sorc will find time. With that said Snipe would still be better option, but it is definitely possible alternative. Its not better than lets say warden's cutting dive, but should be better than crushing weapon or necro's skull. The AoE bonus of it or the 3% more weapon damage (or even 20% more dmg against undead in some cases) make it definitely valid consideration.
    Edited by SodanTok on July 25, 2019 10:54AM
    PC | EU | AD
  • AcadianPaladin
    AcadianPaladin
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    Thanks for your insight. I'm glad you said something about lack of time for spammable because I've noticed the same thing and wondered if it was just me. My bow sorc is currently using Snipe but, in truth, it she usually only gets it off in conjunction with a bar swap as she swaps away from the bar with snipe on it.
    PC NA (PvE)
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    Thanks for your insight. I'm glad you said something about lack of time for spammable because I've noticed the same thing and wondered if it was just me. My bow sorc is currently using Snipe but, in truth, it she usually only gets it off in conjunction with a bar swap as she swaps away from the bar with snipe on it.

    Speaking of that, I havent tried sorc at all on PTS but I can see sorc using: Acid Spray (twice), Barrage, Poison Injection, Trap, Soul Trap and if someone isnt extra fast or with good connection they wont even be able to land 10 skills in duration of barrage so 9 skills more likely. So there is like 3 spaces for Snipe at best, 2 if you like to use Hurricane. Snipe is also slowing you down so maybe 9 skills is still too much with snipe so you might very well end up with just 1 snipe cast or 2 silver shards casts. In that case I would say silver shard is definitely better.
    Edited by SodanTok on July 25, 2019 12:35PM
    PC | EU | AD
  • JoStoic
    JoStoic
    The post still says that Khajiit are best for crit chance. Does this mean that khajiit work well with crit chance builds because of the crit damage passive or does this mean that that line wasn't updated when khajiit lost their crit chance bonuses?

    I really want it to he the first one, but from what I've read elsewhere, I doubt it's the case.
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    JoStoic wrote: »
    The post still says that Khajiit are best for crit chance. Does this mean that khajiit work well with crit chance builds because of the crit damage passive or does this mean that that line wasn't updated when khajiit lost their crit chance bonuses?

    I really want it to he the first one, but from what I've read elsewhere, I doubt it's the case.

    No it means it works well if you have high crit chance because it gets better by it. All in its mostly meaningless because meta is meta and so everyone wears the same stuff but it enables 'feel good' choice if you plan to play Necro, Nightblade or aiming to use set that boosts crit chance.
    PC | EU | AD
  • Zymcio
    Zymcio
    Hello,

    what class have the best dps in bow/bow build ?
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    Zymcio wrote: »
    Hello,

    what class have the best dps in bow/bow build ?

    Necromancer, since they are just best overall.
    PC | EU | AD
  • Jephry
    Jephry
    I've tried a stamina necro and just couldn't get into it...maybe if I change her over to a bow/bow build, I'll actually be able to keep her alive! haha
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    Jephry wrote: »
    I've tried a stamina necro and just couldn't get into it...maybe if I change her over to a bow/bow build, I'll actually be able to keep her alive! haha

    Maybe, problem is, going bow doesnt change and in some ways even increases the impact of all the sluggish and buggy skills necro has :D But the passives are great for bow
    PC | EU | AD
  • Jephry
    Jephry
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Jephry wrote: »
    I've tried a stamina necro and just couldn't get into it...maybe if I change her over to a bow/bow build, I'll actually be able to keep her alive! haha

    Maybe, problem is, going bow doesnt change and in some ways even increases the impact of all the sluggish and buggy skills necro has :D But the passives are great for bow

    Of course...though I'm still hoping they smooth them out at some point without nerfing them into the ground.
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    Scalebreaker update

    General Changes
    • Replace Tzogvin (=the set that isnt Relequen) with Perfected Lokke. If missing, with imperfect Lokke, Deadly Strike or Briarheart (in my opinion in this order of power)
    • Replace VMA Bow with Master Bow in any situation where you focus one target
    • Switch Volley morph from Endless Hail to Arrow Barrage
    • Slot Trap (lightweight if you want to stay ranged, barbed if you dont mind going close to put it down)
    • Slot Soul Trap (both morphs are strong but obviously Consuming does more damage to 1 target)
    • If you are dropping Tzgovin, unless you are Necro or use 2 different pieces of monster set (penetration+damage) or wear some set with penetration, transmute your main bow (aka the perfeced lokke bow) to Sharpened, since there is no way you can get some ~6k penetration from just CP and Shadow Mundus is still best.

    Rotation/skill usage recommendation
    Be mindful that everything is just coming from me, the person that cant do what someone like Liko or other expert can. Both because of own skill and because of bad connection/performance in ESO. Hency why I focus on static rotation as much as possible (dynamic will always net you more). For no other reason than my own preference I also focus on skills and rotation that can be delivered from range at all times, which goes opposite of most rotations and builds you will see other people do even on magicka side. (so no melee trap, melee monster set or awful bash weaving)

    Barrage, Poison Injection, Soul Trap and LTrap are all 10s so recommended rotation is for that duration. Within than time frame you can fit in 10 skills with good connection, 9 if you are like me. Mentioned skills take 4 of those, next best nonclass skills are Shadow Silk and Acid Spray, you can fit 2 of each potentially. Only then, after using any good class skills and all these options (unless you are running out of barspace) is time for regular spammables. If there is no time or space for spammables, Acid Spray essentially becomes your spammable (and it does quite good job at it). If there is, new Silver Shards are probably best spammable you can get with good damage, passive and cleave.

    Necromancer
    My personal DPS on "Liko" cheese (Orc, Lava Foot Soup, everything into Stamina): 91.8k (using 9 skills rotation)
    rcRcoAc.png


    Probably best bow class in game by mile, but dont quote me on that. The passives and skills it has are all just much better and much more of them than on other classes.
    New patch improves behavior of blastbones, but also with all the other changes spamming BB every 3rd skill isnt necessary, which means its no longer much of dps loss playing from range. Unless it gets stuck or bugged, BB should reach target within 3 skill casts from any reasonable distance.

    Class skills used: Blastbones, Archer, Siphon, Colossus

    Possible static rotation:
    Barrage - Poison Injection - Archer/Siphon - Acid Spray - BB - Trap - Acid Spray - Soul - BB - Acid Spray
    * Use Ult when its ready by dropping one Acid Spray
    * You rotate archer/siphon casts, it resulted in more dps for me than recasting siphon early, but obv casting it dynamically as it explodes would be better.


    Possible simple alterations:
    * You can replace 2nd Acid Spray with Shadow Silk, or first and third if you switch 3rd one with BB.
    * You can also rotate archer with barbed trap if you want to use melee trap rather than ranged one
    * And last, you can completely drop second Acid Spray from rotation if you have bad connection and/or just cant cast 10 skills.


    Warden
    My personal DPS on "Liko" cheese (Orc, Lava Foot Soup, everything into Stamina): 85.8k (using 9 skills rotation)
    OCJ7WXI.png


    Warden suffers from unwarranted nerfs and lack of good skills.

    Class skills used: Sub Assault, Netch, Bear, Possibly Cutting Dive

    Possible static rotation
    Barrage - PI - (Netch 1/3 or Shadow Silk 2/3)- Sub - Acid - LTrap - Sub - Soul Trap - Acid - Sub
    * Use Ult when ready instead of Sub Assault or Acid Spray
    * Every 3rd rotation recast Netch, other rotations cast Shadow Silk

    Possible simple alterations:
    * Feel free to experiment and switch up Acid Sprays, Shadow Silks and Sub assaults. Silk > Acid > Sub in power, but Silk needs 4 skills in between, Acid 3 and Sub 2
    Edited by SodanTok on August 11, 2019 8:25PM
    PC | EU | AD
  • AcadianPaladin
    AcadianPaladin
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    Thanks, @SodanTok for your research/testing on this. I still find this thread to be a wonderful inspiration for us archers and wannabe archers, and love how you keep it up to date as things change with very helpful observations and ideas. :)
    PC NA (PvE)
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