Psssttt... yeh you! The experienced magblade.. I am talking to you ...

CavalryPK

What mundus are you running in your pvp set up. I am currently running mage but I wanna make sure it is still the better option.

My Current set up is Front : WM Back: Lich Skoria. Front weapon is sharp trait. (destro / resto)

Alpheu5

The answer is the Steed. Definitely the Steed. Everybody should be using the Steed.

Lexxypwns

Apprentice, imo.

Adds more damage and healing than mage. Adds less damage than lover in some conditions, but adds more versatile damage and improves healing where lover won't. In most cases it adds more damage than thief, but less healing. Same for shadow.

I'm not sure if its the best stone overall, but I think apprentice is the most versatile. I never have to worry about over-penetration, I never have to worry about wasting damage because of a damage shield, and it improves my healing more than the mage.

I really only ever consider apprentice or mage since they both always apply their extra damage and healing. Apprentice adds more of both than the mage will.

Koolio

DW/resto.
I run magicka recovery. Shacklebreaker Amberplasm Valkyn. 1 infused fire glyph 1 charged disease glyph.

Maulkin

I definitely don't classify as an experienced NB but as with all magicka builds, I'm really confused why anyone would pick something other than Mage mundus.

- More dommage
- More healing
- More sustain
- More shields

Nothing trumps it.

Lexxypwns

Maulkin wrote: »

I definitely don't classify as an experienced NB but as with all magicka builds, I'm really confused why anyone would pick something other than Mage mundus.

- More dommage
- More healing
- More sustain
- More shields

Nothing trumps it.

mage adds 2028 base magika
apprentice adds 238 base spell damage

By the time we consider max magika buffs vs major/minor sorcery its not even close. Apprentice is going to be more damage and healing. He's already running lich so the sustain is irrelevant and he doesn't run harness so he doesn't get larger shields from mage.

casparian

Maulkin wrote: »

I definitely don't classify as an experienced NB but as with all magicka builds, I'm really confused why anyone would pick something other than Mage mundus.

- More dommage
- More healing
- More sustain
- More shields

Nothing trumps it.

Cav is running Lich and, like most good magblades, doesn't run Harness/Dampen, so the last two points don't apply here. Since Apprentice gives both more damage and more healing than Mage, it looks like the winner here.

CavalryPK

@casparian and @Lexxypwns always appreciate your feedback. once I get home I am gonna swap to apprentice to see how it is doing. Thanks !

altemriel

CavalryPK wrote: »

What mundus are you running in your pvp set up. I am currently running mage but I wanna make sure it is still the better option.

My Current set up is Front : WM Back: Lich Skoria. Front weapon is sharp trait. (destro / resto)

@NightbladeMechanics I summon you

Lord-Otto

I am gonna blow you away, Lexxy!
>=)

Shade counts as a pet and its damage should therefore scale with magicka only. So the Mage might actually offer higher dps after all!
*evil laughter*

Just kidding.
Mage for Dampen Magicka, Apprentice for no shield. Stay clear of Lover or Thief, too specialized.
Or Atronach, if your sustain is wanting (which it probably isn't wwih Lich).

I'm not a super hardcore Magblade, though.

Lexxypwns

CavalryPK wrote: »

@casparian and @Lexxypwns always appreciate your feedback. once I get home I am gonna swap to apprentice to see how it is doing. Thanks !

Check your tooltips both buffed and unbufed, I'm certain you'll see and feel the difference in damage and healing apprentice will give you. I don't think you'll feel the loss of sustain from losing max mag switching from the mage because you're already running lich, which is LIMITLESS POWAH!

@Lord-Otto Shade adds like 250 DPS in pvp and only on a single target

Autumnhart

Apprentice

Maulkin

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

I definitely don't classify as an experienced NB but as with all magicka builds, I'm really confused why anyone would pick something other than Mage mundus.

- More dommage
- More healing
- More sustain
- More shields

Nothing trumps it.

mage adds 2028 base magika
apprentice adds 238 base spell damage

By the time we consider max magika buffs vs major/minor sorcery its not even close. Apprentice is going to be more damage and healing. He's already running lich so the sustain is irrelevant and he doesn't run harness so he doesn't get larger shields from mage.

I don't know how he plays, but Mage also buffs Healing Ward. He don't run that either?

NB has no access to minor sorcery, if I'm not mistaken. Unless there’s a Templar in the group. Major Sorcery is definitely inferior to the combined max mag bonuses of Altmer, Siphoning tree and CPs if you have all these at your disposal.

Plenty of mageblades playing with Necropotence and Shackle and stacking near 50k max magicka for huge damage and large shields.

NyassaV

Apprentice, and because I've seen you use Refreshing path before I would suggest Juli over war maiden

Lord-Otto

Lexxypwns wrote: »

@Lord-Otto Shade adds like 250 DPS in pvp and only on a single target

I was just jesting, dude.
But tell me, for one second, I made you question yourself, right?
(^___^)

CavalryPK

Hollery wrote: »

Apprentice, and because I've seen you use Refreshing path before I would suggest Juli over war maiden

refreshing was replaced with shade ions ago. but shade has been acting strange recently.

casparian

Maulkin wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

I definitely don't classify as an experienced NB but as with all magicka builds, I'm really confused why anyone would pick something other than Mage mundus.

- More dommage
- More healing
- More sustain
- More shields

Nothing trumps it.

mage adds 2028 base magika
apprentice adds 238 base spell damage

By the time we consider max magika buffs vs major/minor sorcery its not even close. Apprentice is going to be more damage and healing. He's already running lich so the sustain is irrelevant and he doesn't run harness so he doesn't get larger shields from mage.

I don't know how he plays, but Mage also buffs Healing Ward. He don't run that either?

NB has no access to minor sorcery, if I'm not mistaken. Unless there’s a Templar in the group. Major Sorcery is definitely inferior to the combined max mag bonuses of Altmer, Siphoning tree and CPs if you have all these at your disposal.

Plenty of mageblades playing with Necropotence and Shackle and stacking near 50k max magicka for huge damage and large shields.

With the Shackle + Necro setup, my tooltip on Healing Ward (as well as on my damage abilities) is slightly higher with Apprentice than with Mage, even with Inner Light + Altmer + Siphoning passive. And without Mage that build still has 53k magicka, 3k+ spell damage, and 2k+ recovery.

It would make sense for Mage to be the better choice for a max mag stacking build, but thanks to ZOS Balance, it isn't.

ToRelax

Maulkin wrote: »

I definitely don't classify as an experienced NB but as with all magicka builds, I'm really confused why anyone would pick something other than Mage mundus.

- More dommage
- More healing
- More sustain
- More shields

Nothing trumps it.

Serpent ftw!

Maulkin wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

I definitely don't classify as an experienced NB but as with all magicka builds, I'm really confused why anyone would pick something other than Mage mundus.

- More dommage
- More healing
- More sustain
- More shields

Nothing trumps it.

mage adds 2028 base magika
apprentice adds 238 base spell damage

By the time we consider max magika buffs vs major/minor sorcery its not even close. Apprentice is going to be more damage and healing. He's already running lich so the sustain is irrelevant and he doesn't run harness so he doesn't get larger shields from mage.

I don't know how he plays, but Mage also buffs Healing Ward. He don't run that either?

NB has no access to minor sorcery, if I'm not mistaken. Unless there’s a Templar in the group. Major Sorcery is definitely inferior to the combined max mag bonuses of Altmer, Siphoning tree and CPs if you have all these at your disposal.

Plenty of mageblades playing with Necropotence and Shackle and stacking near 50k max magicka for huge damage and large shields.

Healing Ward also scales off Spell Damage, though...

Maulkin

casparian wrote: »

With the Shackle + Necro setup, my tooltip on Healing Ward (as well as on my damage abilities) is slightly higher with Apprentice than with Mage, even with Inner Light + Altmer + Siphoning passive. And without Mage that build still has 53k magicka, 3k+ spell damage, and 2k+ recovery.

It would make sense for Mage to be the better choice for a max mag stacking build, but thanks to ZOS Balance, it isn't.

Really, really depends what you build for and how you build. What you're describing sounds like a DW bomblade set up. Which would probably benefit more from Apprentice than Mage.

I play mostly BGs and my build is with Destro/Resto. There's no way I'm using spell pots over tripots/immov pots or slotting one of Sap Essence / Entropy. That means no access to Major Sorcery. That means I get more from Mage than Apprentice. Will illustrate with data below

ToRelax wrote: »

Healing Ward also scales off Spell Damage, though...

Numbers time.....

I quickly ran to the two Mundus stones to check the difference. This is with ALL other things being equal. Same sets, CPs, passives, skill bar, etc.

For reference, the setup is:
- 5 Light, 1 Heavy, 1 Medium
- 5xShackle (all gold)
- 5xNecro (gold armor, purple jewels. Pet NOT active)
- 1xDomi (gold)
- 5 x gold Magicka enchants on Impen pieces, 2x TriStat enchants on Infused chest and legs
- Magicka Regen / Cost Reduction glyphs on jewels (inconsequential for this test)
- Witchmothers Brew active
- Merciless Resolve not active

Front and back bar have a Siphoning ability for Magicka Flood passive. No bar has any Mages Guild skills. I tested with a Nirnhorned and Infused resto staff.

The numbers are like so:


As you can see, I get nothing from Apprentice. Worse damage, smaller shields and roughly same heals.

PS. Magicka jumps to 49113 with Shade active.

casparian

@Maulkin it isn't a DW bomber setup, it's good old destro resto. Here is the build more or less fully buffed (no Continuous).

That particular setup requires spell pots, but you could trade inner light on the back bar for Degeneration in order to get tri-pots back, and you would still be at 53k magicka on front bar.

I'm not sure why we're seeing different numbers.

TheBonesXXX

testing axiom/transmutation/bloodspawn with a nirnhoned trait atm.

using the shadow for higher burstier heals.

I don't use any destro abilities, only the fire staff for weaving, so axiom is the best choice.

Minno

casparian wrote: »

@Maulkin it isn't a DW bomber setup, it's good old destro resto. Here is the build more or less fully buffed (no Continuous).

That particular setup requires spell pots, but you could trade inner light on the back bar for Degeneration in order to get tri-pots back, and you would still be at 53k magicka on front bar.

I'm not sure why we're seeing different numbers.

Missing undaunted maybe?

casparian

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

testing axiom/transmutation/bloodspawn with a nirnhoned trait atm.

using the shadow for higher burstier heals.

I don't use any destro abilities, only the fire staff for weaving, so axiom is the best choice.

Do you at least have a destro ability on your fire staff bar? Because if you don't, you're missing out on a juicy 8% damage boost.

And the Apprentice will give you higher crit heals than the Shadow will. The Shadow should increase your crit damage and heals more than the Apprentice does, but thanks to weird decisions ZOS made in the HoTR patch, it doesn't.

Maulkin

casparian wrote: »

@Maulkin it isn't a DW bomber setup, it's good old destro resto. Here is the build more or less fully buffed (no Continuous).

That particular setup requires spell pots, but you could trade inner light on the back bar for Degeneration in order to get tri-pots back, and you would still be at 53k magicka on front bar.

I'm not sure why we're seeing different numbers.

Do these numbers match your in-game numbers?

We have almost identical bars, only I have Dampen Magic and Cloak in place of Magelight and Siphoning Attacks. At a quick glance the difference in Magicka is from attribute allocation (I run 54-10 in Mag/HP) and the fact I run tristat on chest and and legs instead of magicka enchants.Also Magelight.

Regarding the Spell Damage, I didn't take the infused weapon damage enchant into consideration, or major sorcery. Those numbers I posted were a quick run from Mundus to Mundus, to illustrate how the numbers change, in game.

Anyhow, my real question is how do you survive without Cloak and without a damage shield in 5 light? What do you do when you get pressured? I know you'll say Shadow Image, but in BGs that doesn't take you very far usually. Not out of the spotlight at least, unless you can cloak afterwards. 21k hp in Light as Vamp in PvP can go in one CC/Burst combo. One Dizzy -> Shalks -> Dawnbreaker combo and it's lights out.

Admittedly, I only recently started playing mageblade and I am primarily a Sorc player. Which means my playstyle is still pretty much front-tanking damage with a big shield till I set up my burst. Which is why I used the disclaimer that I don't classify as an experienced mageblade.

TheBonesXXX

casparian wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

testing axiom/transmutation/bloodspawn with a nirnhoned trait atm.

using the shadow for higher burstier heals.

I don't use any destro abilities, only the fire staff for weaving, so axiom is the best choice.

Do you at least have a destro ability on your fire staff bar? Because if you don't, you're missing out on a juicy 8% damage boost.

And the Apprentice will give you higher crit heals than the Shadow will. The Shadow should increase your crit damage and heals more than the Apprentice does, but thanks to weird decisions ZOS made in the HoTR patch, it doesn't.

Nope, I absolutely hate destro staff abilities so I willingly suffer; so once ZOS pulls their head from their ass and undo most of their terrible decisions, I'll suffer till then.

Freedom of choice used to make this game an A in my book, but do to the mediocrity of the MMOs out, I'll play my build like this.

Didn't know they nerfed Shadow though, I don't spend a whole lot of time investing in this game ZOS' incompetence has kept me from being fully dedicated.

Maulkin

Minno wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

@Maulkin it isn't a DW bomber setup, it's good old destro resto. Here is the build more or less fully buffed (no Continuous).

That particular setup requires spell pots, but you could trade inner light on the back bar for Degeneration in order to get tri-pots back, and you would still be at 53k magicka on front bar.

I'm not sure why we're seeing different numbers.

Missing undaunted maybe?

I got those too.

idk

I've seen both apprentice and OP mentioned mage.

Apprentice will increase your damage a little more than mage.

Mage will increase the size of your shield and apprentice will not.

Tough choice.

casparian

Maulkin wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

@Maulkin it isn't a DW bomber setup, it's good old destro resto. Here is the build more or less fully buffed (no Continuous).

That particular setup requires spell pots, but you could trade inner light on the back bar for Degeneration in order to get tri-pots back, and you would still be at 53k magicka on front bar.

I'm not sure why we're seeing different numbers.

Do these numbers match your in-game numbers?

We have almost identical bars, only I have Dampen Magic and Cloak in place of Magelight and Siphoning Attacks. At a quick glance the difference in Magicka is from attribute allocation (I run 54-10 in Mag/HP) and the fact I run tristat on chest and and legs instead of magicka enchants.Also Magelight.

Regarding the Spell Damage, I didn't take the infused weapon damage enchant into consideration, or major sorcery. Those numbers I posted were a quick run from Mundus to Mundus, to illustrate how the numbers change, in game.

Anyhow, my real question is how do you survive without Cloak and without a damage shield in 5 light? What do you do when you get pressured? I know you'll say Shadow Image, but in BGs that doesn't take you very far usually. Not out of the spotlight at least, unless you can cloak afterwards. 21k hp in Light as Vamp in PvP can go in one CC/Burst combo. One Dizzy -> Shalks -> Dawnbreaker combo and it's lights out.

Admittedly, I only recently started playing mageblade and I am primarily a Sorc player. Which means my playstyle is still pretty much front-tanking damage with a big shield till I set up my burst. Which is why I used the disclaimer that I don't classify as an experienced mageblade.

My in-game numbers are a bit lower than this because not all of my gear is gold yet -- I made that build in UESP in order to see how much of an improvement buying gold Necro jewelry and golding out a couple more Shackle pieces would be. And I just noticed that the build I linked has max mag enchants on chest and head, but in game I'm using Prismatics there. So my hp is more like 22k and my magicka is a little lower. But it's still comfortably above 50k.

Yeah, Shadow Image is a lifesaver. I don't play BGs or care much about them, so I have no idea how this would fare there. Shadow Image is a reactive defense, though -- I have to plan out my fights in advance in order for it to work. But that's true of good magblade play in general, in my experience.

The thing you have on your magblade that you didn't have on your sorc is that juicy Swallow hot. You don't have to tank so much on your shield because your main HOT is so strong that it counts as a source of mitigation in its own right.

I do sometimes run Cloak instead of Double Take -- that's really a flex spot. I don't really need a damage shield in 1v1 or 1v2 fights. But I can often survive just fine without Cloak. Shadow Image not only gets me out of bad stuff I don't want to stand in, it gives me enough time and distance to cast a Ward and get off one or two healing ticks from Swallow before I'm under attack again. (Or at least it used to do that before it got bugged this week.) The main thing I miss from Cloak is that sweet DOT supression. But I do find that abandoning Cloak does wonders for my sustain.

If I am being focused by more than 2 players then I struggle a lot more, and in some cases then it's worth putting Dampen in the flex spot -- it will definitely make you feel tankier. But even when 1v3+, a properly timed Healing Ward into resto ult will give you plenty of breathing room to take down a player or two while feeling more or less invulnerable.

Edit: the one thing I like about Dampen Magic is that it does what it says on the tin. I love magblade and still consider it my main class, but my three main defenses -- Ward, Cloak, and Image -- are all currently bugged, so that I can never actually know whether Ward will heal me, Cloak will hide me, or Image will teleport me. Dampen is worse than any of those three, but it just works.

Derra

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

I definitely don't classify as an experienced NB but as with all magicka builds, I'm really confused why anyone would pick something other than Mage mundus.

- More dommage
- More healing
- More sustain
- More shields

Nothing trumps it.

mage adds 2028 base magika
apprentice adds 238 base spell damage

By the time we consider max magika buffs vs major/minor sorcery its not even close. Apprentice is going to be more damage and healing. He's already running lich so the sustain is irrelevant and he doesn't run harness so he doesn't get larger shields from mage.

Most builds get atleast 36% of increase max magica.
On nb it´s usually between 37% and 44% minimum.
When you add magelight/entropy it´s not as wide of a difference as you´re making it out to be (especially when considering some builds do not run major sorcery or only aquire it from potions and do not have 100% uptime).

Also OP does not state he´s not using harness/dampen (which could very much be a possibility in the metioned min 5p lightarmor setup).

Unless divine pieces are used difference between mage and apprentice mundus is usually less than 1% in CP environment on 5 1 1 builds with a magica race.
For someone who does not know the barsetup of OP but only the sets used it´s correct to point out that given the incomplete information mage is the best possible choice when looking at offence, defence and sustain.

CavalryPK

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

I definitely don't classify as an experienced NB but as with all magicka builds, I'm really confused why anyone would pick something other than Mage mundus.

- More dommage
- More healing
- More sustain
- More shields

Nothing trumps it.

mage adds 2028 base magika
apprentice adds 238 base spell damage

By the time we consider max magika buffs vs major/minor sorcery its not even close. Apprentice is going to be more damage and healing. He's already running lich so the sustain is irrelevant and he doesn't run harness so he doesn't get larger shields from mage.

Most builds get atleast 36% of increase max magica.
On nb it´s usually between 37% and 44% minimum.
When you add magelight/entropy it´s not as wide of a difference as you´re making it out to be (especially when considering some builds do not run major sorcery or only aquire it from potions and do not have 100% uptime).

Also OP does not state he´s not using harness/dampen (which could very much be a possibility in the metioned min 5p lightarmor setup).

Unless divine pieces are used difference between mage and apprentice mundus is usually less than 1% in CP environment on 5 1 1 builds with a magica race.
For someone who does not know the barsetup of OP but only the sets used it´s correct to point out that given the incomplete information mage is the best possible choice when looking at offence, defence and sustain.

I do not use harness/dampen. they knew it cuz they know my play style. They also know my bar set up. although its my bad I should have stated it initially. We talk in forums so much that I assumed every one know what skills I am running. my bad.. haha

Front bar: Swallow Soul, clench / fear, mark / degeneration. leeching strikes, Merciless Resolve Ult: Soul Harvest
Back bar: Impale, shade, crippling, cloak/mutagen/refreshing path, Healing Ward Ult: Lights Champion.

Betsararie

idk wrote: »

I've seen both apprentice and OP mentioned mage.

Apprentice will increase your damage a little more than mage.

Mage will increase the size of your shield and apprentice will not.

Tough choice.

I think it comes down to if you're running shields or not. With shields- the Mage 100%.

Without shields the extra damage makes the apprentice worth it.

For example on my sorc I run the mage because with sorc it's always more effective to go the max magicka route vs the spell damage route because of shields. Same would apply here. The extra sustain from 2-3k extra magicka is hardly noticeable, (but with 10k extra is very noticeable). So shields really is the main factor.