ESO Community Explain Please

Ch4mpTW

Why is it that we as a community find it perfectly okay to charge people for trial clears, and essentially sell “carry runs” to those who don’t deserve said: Titles, skins, loot, etc. Yet, we look down so harshly on those who exploit trial runs via using skills like Snipe, or by leaving the map?

Why do condemn people who cheat so heavily in PvE, yet on the PvP side? Miiat add-on on PC ran rampant for months regarding PvP? And that add-on was some straight up cheating from what I understand about it. Through and through. Yet hundreds if not thousands of people abused it. Why have the audacity to criticize PvE’ers so heavily, yet CE users barrage through Cyrodill and Battlegrounds. Even to this very moment in time. And you have folks who work across alliances to keep the same people who normally get emperor to resume doing so. Trading and even selling emperorship to folks. What type of **** is that?

You have folks who sit about complaining about bots and gold sellers, but then turn around and buy those super cheap materials from said bots and gold sellers. And how do I know this? Because, I’ve seen it personally. Right in Craglorn. A few people who’ve complained on these forums about bots, I’ve seen huddled around an obvious bitter/gold seller to pick-up the goods. Yet come on these very forums and try to act so clean and pristine, knowing very well that their hands are just as covered and dirt.

Why is this ESO community? Someone please tell me why.

Oh, and for the record? I am NOT defending cheating or exploiting in any kind. I’m all for the most EXTREME of extremes when it comes to dealing with those who violate the TOS that people agreed to in-game. And anyone who knows me or knows of me knows this fact about me. I will fight tooth and nail to see cheaters and overall dishonest players get punished to the highest extent possible. And will wrestle as hard as I can with those I know of to have said players blacklisted from guilds and all that jazz. Even when it comes to myself encountering bugs and or exploits. You all will see me post a video of here right here on these forums, and beg and plead to ZOS to have it looked into. Why? Because I don’t want people taking advantage of said bug, and dragging the game even further into the dirt. Although at this point, I just send PM’s to ZOS staff directly, rather than cause a scene. The only exceptions being when said exploit requires as much attention as possible to have it neutralized and on the devs’ radar (e.g. Leaping into keeps, god mode, etc.).

So n’ah. Champ doesn’t defend anything about cheating or exploiting. Let alone anything dishonest. However, Champ also doesn’t throw shade at 1 thing but not the other. I look at all exploits as an exploit. Regardless of its severity. Not 1 being allowed to slide, while condemning the others. N’ah b. That’s deadass wrong. And I would like for us as a community to cut that bs out.

starkerealm

First, there is, in fact a line. Not everyone agrees on exactly where that line is, but for most of us, exploits like the vAS HM clears, are over it. Carries are (usually) not.

For some people, there's a legitimate statement to be had that even in a carry, they were legitimately there participating in the content. Even if they weren't individually good enough to complete, their team was capable of doing so. So, the titles are representative of your entire team's skill, not just yours. At that point, it doesn't matter nearly as much that everyone was up to snuff so long as the group effort cleared the bar.

For some people, the idea is that everyone needs to be able to pull their share, and as a result carries are deeply offensive.

For almost everyone, deliberately exploiting the game's mechanics to trivialize content is a bridge too far.

Okay, that's PvE. Give me a minute.

Davor

Answer is easy. With what, thousands, or a million as Zenimax claims, there will be a lot of differing opinions. Do you have proof the person actual complaining is the one that is actually buying?

With so many people on the forums, a lot of us complain about something. The "community" has hundreds of thousands, if not millions of differing opinions. The "community" is not just one mind. Other wise if it was as you are claiming, you are no better because you are part of that "community".

ParaNostram

Thank you OP for your post. You spoke truth to power for issues facing this community.

starkerealm

PvP in ESO is advantage based. Really. Your gear might be slightly better. You might have slightly better reflexes. But the major deciding factor is systems knowledge.

That is to say: Do you understand the game? Do you understand all of these different facets of it?

This is part of why some console players look down on PC players, because addons provide far more information to the player in a quick, concise, format. If you're playing on PC, you have access to more information at any given moment than an equivalent console player has.

Addons like FTC provided a lot of information with some useful reminders popping up on screen. Stuff like low resource warnings, damage flow data, ultimate access, buff cycling. It's fair to say, this information is the game. Everything else is a wrapper around that.

If you don't have access to addons, then you need to internalize that information, and learn how to keep track of it. If you have access to addons, then you can plaster that stuff all over your screen.

Again, this leads to a lot of dispute over where, exactly, the line is.

Is it when you gain access to information that you technically have, but is difficult to obtain? (Normal addons, FTC, AUI, ect.)

Is it when you gain access to information that you theoretically have, but is nearly impossible to operationalize in the moment? (Miats)

Or, is it when you're actually exploiting the system, via memory editor tools like CE? (Which, almost no one's going to spring to the defense of, but there are people who find this behavior acceptable.)

So, is Miat's acceptable? Depends who you ask. Also, there are addons that allow greater access to the API, and pull data that flat out isn't available to a normal player. Miats took flak for this, and in some cases it's pulling stuff the player couldn't reasonably obtain, but is available to them.

Linaleah

here is my line. if you clear something legitimately and then sell a run, where you CLEAR THINGS LEGITIMATELY - its fine. for both the seller and the buyer. becasue they are not. exploiting. a glitch. a seller is providing a legitimate service - they are skilled enough to be capable of completing content while a person or 2 short - this is not exploit. that's skilled individual selling a service and another individual who legitimately made the gold? using said gold. and everyone benefits.

abusing glitches or in general knowingly and intentionally violating ToS is where I draw the line. whether in pve or pvp.

Rawkan

I'm all for banning people selling carries as well.

coop500

Rawkan wrote: »

I'm all for banning people selling carries as well.

I'm indifferent on carries, I don't use them, i don't hate them, I don't agree with them, they can be banned or not and either way is fine.

SecretAtoz

Rawkan wrote: »

I'm all for banning people selling carries as well.

How about banning animation cancellation as well while we are at it since that is considered an exploit.

Chronicburn

They are like dictator Kim in North Korea ... willing to murder a few to put fear in the community. Sick minds.

Samadhi

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

...
Why do condemn people who cheat so heavily in PvE, yet on the PvP side? Miiat add-on on PC ran rampant for months regarding PvP? And that add-on was some straight up cheating from what I understand about it. Through and through. Yet hundreds if not thousands of people abused it. Why have the audacity to criticize PvE’ers so heavily, yet CE users barrage through Cyrodill and Battlegrounds. Even to this very moment in time. And you have folks who work across alliances to keep the same people who normally get emperor to resume doing so. Trading and even selling emperorship to folks. What type of **** is that?
...

To my comprehension,
as someone who showed up to the Miat's issue a week or two before ZOS responded about making further changes to the API as a result of the functionality
it is to my comprehension that players complained for months and ZOS did nothing

to my best further comprehension of the issue,
ZOS had previously inhibitted/opposed similar functionality
and the add-on was then modified to perform the same task (alert to attacks coming from a hidden state) in a different manner

It is unclear to me how long it took ZOS to understand the (altered)functionality of the addon

have never used the addon personally, so all my knowledge of the issue is second-hand from interacting on the forums
not seeking to 'excuse' the use of it or ZOS' response time, simply communicating my comprehension as to why the issue has existed so long

Am unclear what the abbreviation of CE stands for

Emperorship is a social thing,
some people get there by working well with their groups
some people get there through popularity
and, apparently, some people buy their way there

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

...

You have folks who sit about complaining about bots and gold sellers, but then turn around and buy those super cheap materials from said bots and gold sellers. And how do I know this? Because, I’ve seen it personally. Right in Craglorn. A few people who’ve complained on these forums about bots, I’ve seen huddled around an obvious bitter/gold seller to pick-up the goods. Yet come on these very forums and try to act so clean and pristine, knowing very well that their hands are just as covered and dirt. ...

are you certain they are buying from the 'obvious gold seller'
and not huddled around writing up tickets in the in game report feature?

When it comes to cheating in games you can be assured of two things
1. the company has access to an enormous amount of, often rather precise, data
2. they have little idea what to do with it all

How this factors in to the trial exploit would be
the notification to ZOS was prompt
and despite the fact that the individual edited the name and shame out rather quickly
ZOS staff should have full access to every edit made to any post simply by clicking on the line mentioning it was edited
so they could review and 'We Know' quite easily

plus what was accomplished was rather visible

the exploit also had a readily discernible impact on other players (the capture of world's first)

so quick and clear notification + readily traceable methods (the reason things like CE (*realize now this probably means cheat engine) are so successful at spoiling games
is because of continual adaptations to hide the functionality from server-side recording in a way the trial clear could not)
means ZOS was able to respond in a quick and severe manner before the exploit became too widespread

KochDerDamonen

I would also like to know.

OutLaw_Nynx

This is ridiculous.

Don’t like the choice Zos made?

Leave . Quit

we all signed t&c and that’s that.


This community is toxic as shi t

Chronicburn

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

This is ridiculous.

Don’t like the choice Zos made?

Leave . Quit

we all signed t&c and that’s that.


This community is toxic as shi t

The last line is so true it deserved an awesome

SirAndy

starkerealm wrote: »

For almost everyone, deliberately exploiting the game's mechanics to trivialize content is a bridge too far.

KingMagaw

ZOS promoted Cheating when they temp suspended CE users and let them back. No going back from that, this was an encouraging factor to all who sway that way inclined.

Additionally with the lack of proper testing from ZOS on the content being released, paves the way for exploiting to be done. On the PTS most play to gain an advantage before patch goes LIVE, whether that is for information, or exploiting. There is zero incentive for anyone to invest playtime into the PTS, to give ZOS information, so that information is almost always used for personal gain.

On the AP exploit i know a good few people who exploited over 6 million+ AP, bought Akavari motifs, sold them, was temp suspended for 3/7 days and were back with 400k+ Gold. How does this ever discourage abusing exploits?

The vast majority of people policing BOTs have been players, who take time from their limited game time to send in reports, many which have been ignored, so most stopped wasting the time to do it.

There is little to no transparency or communication with ZOS. Almost all i play with have lost any faith in ESO for any sort of competitive game play as it is either exploiting, cheating or farmville.

N0TPLAYER2

Good to hear champ. Its nice to be free and realize how much time we've dumped into the game.

*** I have 5 master anglers and have been off the game over 6-8 months. I was wasting soooo much of my time.

Chronicburn

I’m still stuck wasting time ... how did you beat the addiction?

Almost wish I was one of the banned...

Samadhi

N0TPLAYER2 wrote: »

Good to hear champ. Its nice to be free and realize how much time we've dumped into the game.

*** I have 5 master anglers and have been off the game over 6-8 months. I was wasting soooo much of my time.

Hey now, slow down there
digital or not, time spent fishing is never wasted

a real lake would be preferable
but sitting by the fireplace and screen in the winter is still an opportunity for relaxation

Waffennacht

I'm not ok with selling runs

Betsararie

Rawkan wrote: »

I'm all for banning people selling carries as well.

LOL

yes, people actually think this.

Minyassa

For the most part, we don't. I condemn everything that even smells the tiniest bit like cheating. I don't buy materials other people sell, I collect my own. I read and Agree or Awesome LOTS of other people's complaints about PvP cheats and exploits not being punished, even though I don't PvP, because I just hate cheating that much, and I see enough of those complaints to be pretty sure the majority is not okay with it.

I disagree on the point of carries vs. exploits. Carries are bought and paid for and as such are a service purchased within the rules of the game by someone who has done whatever allowed them to afford the carry. Exploits are stealing from the game. That's the difference.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

It is sort of like the difference between winning the lottery and robbing a bank.

While the end result might be near the same, In one example the person paid the price of admission. In the other they were just a ***.

TheShadowScout

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Why is it that we as a community find it perfectly okay to charge people for trial clears, and essentially sell “carry runs” to those who don’t deserve said: Titles, skins, loot, etc. Yet, we look down so harshly on those who exploit trial runs via using skills like Snipe, or by leaving the map?

Whoever said everyone finds that former one acceptable?

Carrying allies through content they find unfamiliar? Sure, that's what ought to be the benefits of a guild - its kinda like having friends, or so I imagine...

Selling "escort runs" through the same to strangers? Meh... I look down harshly on those as well, and would rather not do something then pay some stranger to guide me. But I grudgingly admit that is is a viable option for some people to hire out their skills, even if I don't really find it okay - after all, they still have to do their share of the work getting through the content.

Using outright cheating, like -intentionally- exploiting flaws in the game to use a "shortcut" to victory? Ban them, band them all.

'nuff said.

TheValar85

Blanco wrote: »

Rawkan wrote: »

I'm all for banning people selling carries as well.

LOL

yes, people actually think this.

Because it is exist and it is not a made up thing, nor even a hallucination. It is a known fact for years now. Emp sellers, dungeon carry, even trial carry. and the list goes on. i did not made this thing believe me. i have read a tons of service adverstiments in EU zone chats. and it is disgusts me.

Betsararie

TheValar85 wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Rawkan wrote: »

I'm all for banning people selling carries as well.

LOL

yes, people actually think this.

Because it is exist and it is not a made up thing, nor even a hallucination. It is a known fact for years now. Emp sellers, dungeon carry, even trial carry. and the list goes on. i did not made this thing believe me. i have read a tons of service adverstiments in EU zone chats. and it is disgusts me.

Gold selling is different, but there's nothing wrong with a dungeon (or trial) carry. There's nothing wrong at all, because it's effectively the same as running the content with a 'bad' in the group. It may even be better because if the bad player is that awful, it's possible he could negatively impact the group even more than someone who is paying to be carried.

So that's why it has to be okay for people to pay for carries through trials, I'd agree that gold selling is a different matter and should not be tolerated in any way, shape or form.

idk

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Why is it that we as a community find it perfectly okay to charge people for trial clears, and essentially sell “carry runs” to those who don’t deserve said: Titles, skins, loot, etc. Yet, we look down so harshly on those who exploit trial runs via using skills like Snipe, or by leaving the map?

It is extremely simple.

One way is a someone is running with a group that has figured out how to clear the content, legit, without cheating. Someone is merely being carried.

The other is the entire group is good at only one thing, cheating. None of them have actually figured out how to clear the content and are really just plain pathetic.

Not really sure why someone needs to even create a thread on the subject. After reading what I quoted I did not find it worthy to read the rest. Figured the first paragraph was just an opener to discuss in greater detail what I just said or went down a rabbit hole not worth entering.

Jarryzzt

I cannot recall a single mature MMO where "carries", within the technical bounds established by the devs (e.g. grouping/XP limitations), were thought to be cheating. Granted, I haven't played every single MMO ever made, but I do go all the way back to GodWars MUDs. With griefing admins, mind you.

I.e. the attitude I've always a) adopted and b) observed at large has been: if it's in the game, and not declared by the devs to be a bug, then it is de-facto a feature, and if any aspect of said feature seems "unfair" - that's on the devs and the system designers.

That said, I have to agree that selling an exploit carry crosses a line. It's one thing to find an exploit then yell about it in public (hoping the devs catch on), share it around with everyone you meet until the devs fix it (hello D2 duping!), or even keep it to yourself to snigger about in the dark (hoping the devs won't catch on). But "I know a bug, pay me to benefit from it" - no, that's not going to get you my pity vote, if you get banned for it, that is.

Morgul667

I appreciate zos taking actions on cheaters and exploiters but i find it over the edge as they ban people for a bug they introduced. Some would argue it was easy to see this as an exploit and, lets be honest it was easy to see. Those guys should get some kind of punishment.

But In the meantime bots are still alive and people use miat in pvp (which fits perfectly the cheat definition if you look it up). I agree it does not make any sense.... while there needs to be action conducted against cheaters i fail to see a fair and organised logic here

idk

Jarryzzt wrote: »

I cannot recall a single mature MMO where "carries", within the technical bounds established by the devs (e.g. grouping/XP limitations), were thought to be cheating. Granted, I haven't played every single MMO ever made, but I do go all the way back to GodWars MUDs. With griefing admins, mind you.

I.e. the attitude I've always a) adopted and b) observed at large has been: if it's in the game, and not declared by the devs to be a bug, then it is de-facto a feature, and if any aspect of said feature seems "unfair" - that's on the devs and the system designers.

That said, I have to agree that selling an exploit carry crosses a line. It's one thing to find an exploit then yell about it in public (hoping the devs catch on), share it around with everyone you meet until the devs fix it (hello D2 duping!), or even keep it to yourself to snigger about in the dark (hoping the devs won't catch on). But "I know a bug, pay me to benefit from it" - no, that's not going to get you my pity vote, if you get banned for it, that is.

Well, there are some things that are an obvious exploit, clearly not intended and I do not think it required for the devs to state it is a bug or exploit before any action can be taken against said players. In the recent case we are speaking of, it is obvious and clear. Each of those players knew what they were doing and if they get banned, or have, they got what they deserved.

Good riddance.

Mureel

starkerealm wrote: »

First, there is, in fact a line. Not everyone agrees on exactly where that line is, but for most of us, exploits like the vAS HM clears, are over it. Carries are (usually) not.

For some people, there's a legitimate statement to be had that even in a carry, they were legitimately there participating in the content. Even if they weren't individually good enough to complete, their team was capable of doing so. So, the titles are representative of your entire team's skill, not just yours. At that point, it doesn't matter nearly as much that everyone was up to snuff so long as the group effort cleared the bar.

For some people, the idea is that everyone needs to be able to pull their share, and as a result carries are deeply offensive.

For almost everyone, deliberately exploiting the game's mechanics to trivialize content is a bridge too far.

Okay, that's PvE. Give me a minute.

The bolded bit, and many times people who are legit part of the group and are not even paying are getting carried themselves.
My clear of VMOL on my DPS on Rakhat was with a really good group and my dps was 2nd to lowest at 27k and we weren’t even running or catching meteors. We 2 were carried in a sense because we were the weakest links.