PvP Group Guide & Builds (Start of a "group requirements and specifications document")

Satiar

Mmmm this is why I've always hated organized GvGs. Too easy to cheese, thus requires too many rules and ends up being too artificial. Take your specs to the open world, fight the groups you find. The rest is nonsense.

Which has always been my response to people spamming "GVG US" at me.

Thogard

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand hardcore competitive 12-man groups. The strategies are extremely complex, and without a solid grasp of combat mechanics most of the strategies fail to wipe out other players effectively. There's also Eye of the Storm, which is deftly woven into a group play that must be strategically used to maximize AoE damage potential and target displacement - the group play philosophy draws deep from ESO combat literature, for instance. The hardcore 16 man guilds understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of this play style, to realize that they're not just simple zergs - they say something deep about SKILL. As a consequence people who dislike hardcore competitive 16-man groups truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the skillfil play and group utility of the fair and balanced set "Earthgore," which itself is a cryptic reference to the lore behind the set, as it comes from 'the head of the elemental of Bloodroot Forge'. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Wrobel's genius unfolds itself on their computer monitor. What fools... how I pity them. joy. And yes by the way, I DO have an Earthgore tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- And even they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 AP ranks of my own (preferably lower) beforehand.

montiferus

Thogard wrote: »

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand hardcore competitive 12-man groups. The strategies are extremely complex, and without a solid grasp of combat mechanics most of the strategies fail to wipe out other players effectively. There's also Eye of the Storm, which is deftly woven into a group play that must be strategically used to maximize AoE damage potential and target displacement - the group play philosophy draws deep from ESO combat literature, for instance. The hardcore 16 man guilds understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of this play style, to realize that they're not just simple zergs - they say something deep about SKILL. As a consequence people who dislike hardcore competitive 16-man groups truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the skillfil play and group utility of the fair and balanced set "Earthgore," which itself is a cryptic reference to the lore behind the set, as it comes from 'the head of the elemental of Bloodroot Forge'. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Wrobel's genius unfolds itself on their computer monitor. What fools... how I pity them. joy. And yes by the way, I DO have an Earthgore tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- And even they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 AP ranks of my own (preferably lower) beforehand.

ROTFLMAO...

Funniest post I've read in a while.

You PC folks are lucky though despite all the drama. Xbox has absolutely ZERO GvG community. I would kill to do a 3v3 or 4v4 but there just aren't that many small groups out there.

Thogard

montiferus wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand hardcore competitive 12-man groups. The strategies are extremely complex, and without a solid grasp of combat mechanics most of the strategies fail to wipe out other players effectively. There's also Eye of the Storm, which is deftly woven into a group play that must be strategically used to maximize AoE damage potential and target displacement - the group play philosophy draws deep from ESO combat literature, for instance. The hardcore 16 man guilds understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of this play style, to realize that they're not just simple zergs - they say something deep about SKILL. As a consequence people who dislike hardcore competitive 16-man groups truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the skillfil play and group utility of the fair and balanced set "Earthgore," which itself is a cryptic reference to the lore behind the set, as it comes from 'the head of the elemental of Bloodroot Forge'. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Wrobel's genius unfolds itself on their computer monitor. What fools... how I pity them. joy. And yes by the way, I DO have an Earthgore tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- And even they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 AP ranks of my own (preferably lower) beforehand.

ROTFLMAO...

Funniest post I've read in a while.

You PC folks are lucky though despite all the drama. Xbox has absolutely ZERO GvG community. I would kill to do a 3v3 of 4v4 but there just aren't that many small groups out there.

IMO if you build it, they will come.

Hardest part is getting people to move past the drama.

montiferus

Thogard wrote: »

montiferus wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand hardcore competitive 12-man groups. The strategies are extremely complex, and without a solid grasp of combat mechanics most of the strategies fail to wipe out other players effectively. There's also Eye of the Storm, which is deftly woven into a group play that must be strategically used to maximize AoE damage potential and target displacement - the group play philosophy draws deep from ESO combat literature, for instance. The hardcore 16 man guilds understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of this play style, to realize that they're not just simple zergs - they say something deep about SKILL. As a consequence people who dislike hardcore competitive 16-man groups truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the skillfil play and group utility of the fair and balanced set "Earthgore," which itself is a cryptic reference to the lore behind the set, as it comes from 'the head of the elemental of Bloodroot Forge'. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Wrobel's genius unfolds itself on their computer monitor. What fools... how I pity them. joy. And yes by the way, I DO have an Earthgore tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- And even they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 AP ranks of my own (preferably lower) beforehand.

ROTFLMAO...

Funniest post I've read in a while.

You PC folks are lucky though despite all the drama. Xbox has absolutely ZERO GvG community. I would kill to do a 3v3 of 4v4 but there just aren't that many small groups out there.

IMO if you build it, they will come.

Hardest part is getting people to move past the drama.

Both your points are entirely accurate. Unfortunately I am not the person to do it as the people from the other factions who do know who I am hate me lol. We need a Kena on Xbox!!!!

You have motivated me though I am going to see if I can make something happen. I would like for the Xbox community to have some kind of presence.

Thogard

montiferus wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

montiferus wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand hardcore competitive 12-man groups. The strategies are extremely complex, and without a solid grasp of combat mechanics most of the strategies fail to wipe out other players effectively. There's also Eye of the Storm, which is deftly woven into a group play that must be strategically used to maximize AoE damage potential and target displacement - the group play philosophy draws deep from ESO combat literature, for instance. The hardcore 16 man guilds understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of this play style, to realize that they're not just simple zergs - they say something deep about SKILL. As a consequence people who dislike hardcore competitive 16-man groups truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the skillfil play and group utility of the fair and balanced set "Earthgore," which itself is a cryptic reference to the lore behind the set, as it comes from 'the head of the elemental of Bloodroot Forge'. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Wrobel's genius unfolds itself on their computer monitor. What fools... how I pity them. joy. And yes by the way, I DO have an Earthgore tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- And even they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 AP ranks of my own (preferably lower) beforehand.

ROTFLMAO...

Funniest post I've read in a while.

You PC folks are lucky though despite all the drama. Xbox has absolutely ZERO GvG community. I would kill to do a 3v3 of 4v4 but there just aren't that many small groups out there.

IMO if you build it, they will come.

Hardest part is getting people to move past the drama.

Both your points are entirely accurate. Unfortunately I am not the person to do it as the people from the other factions who do know who I am hate me lol. We need a Kena on Xbox!!!!

You have motivated me though I am going to see if I can make something happen. I would like for the Xbox community to have some kind of presence.

A trade guild with tons of money and a huge gold prize would be best IMO

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Thogard wrote: »

Hardest part is getting people to move past the drama.

Thogard wrote: »

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand hardcore competitive 12-man groups. The strategies are extremely complex, and without a solid grasp of combat mechanics most of the strategies fail to wipe out other players effectively. There's also Eye of the Storm, which is deftly woven into a group play that must be strategically used to maximize AoE damage potential and target displacement - the group play philosophy draws deep from ESO combat literature, for instance. The hardcore 16 man guilds understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of this play style, to realize that they're not just simple zergs - they say something deep about SKILL. As a consequence people who dislike hardcore competitive 16-man groups truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the skillfil play and group utility of the fair and balanced set "Earthgore," which itself is a cryptic reference to the lore behind the set, as it comes from 'the head of the elemental of Bloodroot Forge'. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Wrobel's genius unfolds itself on their computer monitor. What fools... how I pity them. joy. And yes by the way, I DO have an Earthgore tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- And even they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 AP ranks of my own (preferably lower) beforehand.

Thogard wrote: »

Hardest part is getting people to move past the drama.

Thogard wrote: »

1. Wear earthgore
2. Stack on crown
3. Spam AOEs



easy.

Thogard wrote: »

Hardest part is getting people to move past the drama.

+1


Also

Satiar wrote: »

Mmmm this is why I've always hated organized GvGs. Too easy to cheese, thus requires too many rules and ends up being too artificial. Take your specs to the open world, fight the groups you find. The rest is nonsense.

Which has always been my response to people spamming "GVG US" at me.

The people asking you guys from GvG didn't propose any rules other than just come fight us guild vs guild. i.e your best group vs their best group. afaik.
Open world fights are usually far from 'equal' places in which one can show superior build & group compositions / player performance which is what the aim of GvG usually is.

Satiar

On the contrary, open world is a better test. The spec id bring to a private fight is far different than what I’d bring to a GvG. It’s the same problem I ran into with Legend, where people would bring specialized 1v1 specs that would never work open world but were deadly in an artificial environment. We’d often get into endless duels because of this whereas meeting those same players open world would be much better fights.

It’s also interesting to see how far down the numbers problem goes. The 12-16 mans wanted the 20-24 mans to trim down numbers to fight them instead of bulking up, the 6-8 mans wanted the 12-16 mans to trim down, etc etc. No one really wants to adapt to the other style, everyone wants to fight on home turf

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Satiar wrote: »

On the contrary, open world is a better test. The spec id bring to a private fight is far different than what I’d bring to a GvG. It’s the same problem I ran into with Legend, where people would bring specialized 1v1 specs that would never work open world but were deadly in an artificial environment. We’d often get into endless duels because of this whereas meeting those same players open world would be much better fights.

It’s also interesting to see how far down the numbers problem goes. The 12-16 mans wanted the 20-24 mans to trim down numbers to fight them instead of bulking up, the 6-8 mans wanted the 12-16 mans to trim down, etc etc. No one really wants to adapt to the other style, everyone wants to fight on home turf

Whenever I offer a GvG to someone I would always fight their style, the only times I wouldn't is if I was offering them the opportunity to meet us in our own composition. However I feel like the difference in comp and roles between 16 and 24 is much less compared to a 12m down to 6m (aside from the fact that in 24m you can basically overwhelm most fights)

Its not as if openworld fights with players normal specs are instant fights either.
Personally we've always run roughly the same openworld gear for every gvg we've done I believe (there were a couple of swap outs where sets didn't make sense for the engagement size) and also 1 or 2 skill swap outs. I quite like the fact that as a guild unit you can customise and create a composition for a new type of engagement.

Vilestride

Too much seriousness. This is lame.

Vilestride

Thogard wrote: »

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand hardcore competitive 12-man groups. The strategies are extremely complex, and without a solid grasp of combat mechanics most of the strategies fail to wipe out other players effectively. There's also Eye of the Storm, which is deftly woven into a group play that must be strategically used to maximize AoE damage potential and target displacement - the group play philosophy draws deep from ESO combat literature, for instance. The hardcore 16 man guilds understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of this play style, to realize that they're not just simple zergs - they say something deep about SKILL. As a consequence people who dislike hardcore competitive 16-man groups truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the skillfil play and group utility of the fair and balanced set "Earthgore," which itself is a cryptic reference to the lore behind the set, as it comes from 'the head of the elemental of Bloodroot Forge'. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Wrobel's genius unfolds itself on their computer monitor. What fools... how I pity them. joy. And yes by the way, I DO have an Earthgore tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- And even they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 AP ranks of my own (preferably lower) beforehand.

Tasteful sarcasm earns insightful.

Thogard

Vilestride wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand hardcore competitive 12-man groups. The strategies are extremely complex, and without a solid grasp of combat mechanics most of the strategies fail to wipe out other players effectively. There's also Eye of the Storm, which is deftly woven into a group play that must be strategically used to maximize AoE damage potential and target displacement - the group play philosophy draws deep from ESO combat literature, for instance. The hardcore 16 man guilds understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of this play style, to realize that they're not just simple zergs - they say something deep about SKILL. As a consequence people who dislike hardcore competitive 16-man groups truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the skillfil play and group utility of the fair and balanced set "Earthgore," which itself is a cryptic reference to the lore behind the set, as it comes from 'the head of the elemental of Bloodroot Forge'. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Wrobel's genius unfolds itself on their computer monitor. What fools... how I pity them. joy. And yes by the way, I DO have an Earthgore tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- And even they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 AP ranks of my own (preferably lower) beforehand.

Tasteful sarcasm earns insightful.

it's a repurposed meme actually.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/to-be-fair-you-have-to-have-a-very-high-iq-to-understand-rick-and-morty

WHEN IN DOUBT, MEME IT OUT.

Agrippa_Invisus

Satiar wrote: »

On the contrary, open world is a better test. The spec id bring to a private fight is far different than what I’d bring to a GvG. It’s the same problem I ran into with Legend, where people would bring specialized 1v1 specs that would never work open world but were deadly in an artificial environment. We’d often get into endless duels because of this whereas meeting those same players open world would be much better fights.

It’s also interesting to see how far down the numbers problem goes. The 12-16 mans wanted the 20-24 mans to trim down numbers to fight them instead of bulking up, the 6-8 mans wanted the 12-16 mans to trim down, etc etc. No one really wants to adapt to the other style, everyone wants to fight on home turf

No one wants to venture outside their comfort zone.

I don't blame them, really. If you've spend 200 hours practicing being good at large group engagements, but only a handful of hours playing in 1vX environments, it's not hard to tell what you're going to be better at.

Anecdote Time (because if there's one thing I'm good at is retaining old info that's usually relevant to nothing): There was a point where a bunch of Legend folks did ball up to try to do so something. They wanted to crown Sypher. I watched the whole thing through his stream while I was at work and it was flipping hilarious. In open field they dominated against unorganized groups of similar size. The first guild group they encountered tore them apart. They were uncoordinated, unable to time their burst, did not have builds that complimented each other, and their crown (Sypher) had very poor control over the squad in his voice chat.

Does that make them bad players? No. They had no practice at what they were trying to do and got roflstomped when they were facing opponents that were, and were pulling no punches.

People who build for group environments build with the concept that the sum of the whole is greater than its parts. Those that build for 1vX build in the complete opposite way, which is self sufficiency. Small groupers often are in between, with some ability to help the group, but usually a lot of ability to still survive on their own.

Thogard

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

On the contrary, open world is a better test. The spec id bring to a private fight is far different than what I’d bring to a GvG. It’s the same problem I ran into with Legend, where people would bring specialized 1v1 specs that would never work open world but were deadly in an artificial environment. We’d often get into endless duels because of this whereas meeting those same players open world would be much better fights.

It’s also interesting to see how far down the numbers problem goes. The 12-16 mans wanted the 20-24 mans to trim down numbers to fight them instead of bulking up, the 6-8 mans wanted the 12-16 mans to trim down, etc etc. No one really wants to adapt to the other style, everyone wants to fight on home turf

Whenever I offer a GvG to someone I would always fight their style, the only times I wouldn't is if I was offering them the opportunity to meet us in our own composition. However I feel like the difference in comp and roles between 16 and 24 is much less compared to a 12m down to 6m (aside from the fact that in 24m you can basically overwhelm most fights)

Its not as if openworld fights with players normal specs are instant fights either.
Personally we've always run roughly the same openworld gear for every gvg we've done I believe (there were a couple of swap outs where sets didn't make sense for the engagement size) and also 1 or 2 skill swap outs. I quite like the fact that as a guild unit you can customise and create a composition for a new type of engagement.

^

Drac and LoM both get props in my book for being willing to fight in multiple weight classes

Or maybe the more apt analogy is the connor macgregor / Floyd Mayweather boxing match.

But yeah i'm talking to another 6man group and we're going to combine forces so we can fight you on your terms rather than ours.

For clarification, does your terms have any rules at all? I'm assuming that no rezzing mid fight is a thing, but any other rules?

Vilestride

Thogard wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

On the contrary, open world is a better test. The spec id bring to a private fight is far different than what I’d bring to a GvG. It’s the same problem I ran into with Legend, where people would bring specialized 1v1 specs that would never work open world but were deadly in an artificial environment. We’d often get into endless duels because of this whereas meeting those same players open world would be much better fights.

It’s also interesting to see how far down the numbers problem goes. The 12-16 mans wanted the 20-24 mans to trim down numbers to fight them instead of bulking up, the 6-8 mans wanted the 12-16 mans to trim down, etc etc. No one really wants to adapt to the other style, everyone wants to fight on home turf

Whenever I offer a GvG to someone I would always fight their style, the only times I wouldn't is if I was offering them the opportunity to meet us in our own composition. However I feel like the difference in comp and roles between 16 and 24 is much less compared to a 12m down to 6m (aside from the fact that in 24m you can basically overwhelm most fights)

Its not as if openworld fights with players normal specs are instant fights either.
Personally we've always run roughly the same openworld gear for every gvg we've done I believe (there were a couple of swap outs where sets didn't make sense for the engagement size) and also 1 or 2 skill swap outs. I quite like the fact that as a guild unit you can customise and create a composition for a new type of engagement.

^

Drac and LoM both get props in my book for being willing to fight in multiple weight classes

Or maybe the more apt analogy is the connor macgregor / Floyd Mayweather boxing match.

But yeah i'm talking to another 6man group and we're going to combine forces so we can fight you on your terms rather than ours.

For clarification, does your terms have any rules at all? I'm assuming that no rezzing mid fight is a thing, but any other rules?

No rezing is typically the only rule yes.

MaximillianDiE

It's like a summary of everything that went wrong with group pvp and made it completely unenjoyable compared to earlier meta. My two favorites:

If you are healing, you must have a set of Earthgore.
If you are in a magicka build and are not a healer, you should have a destro staff back bar for the destro ultimate (eye).

Satiar wrote: »

Mmmm this is why I've always hated organized GvGs. Too easy to cheese, thus requires too many rules and ends up being too artificial. Take your specs to the open world, fight the groups you find. The rest is nonsense.

Which has always been my response to people spamming "GVG US" at me.

It wasn't always like this Steve. The first two NA gvgs in 2015/2016 had almost no rules other than no rezzing. But then that was before the cancer meta we're stuck with now of stacked destro ulti / tanky suport heavy stam wardens and earthgores which make large scale players (generally) unable to compete if they fall behind and become "fat kids" from their groups in their "group builds" and small scale groups struggle in their "1vx" builds with competent ball groups. Players back then weren't pigeon holed into "group" builds the way it seems like they are now as it only took a couple of tweaks which could be made on the fly to change from one to another and the top guilds' members (including yours as I know from the ones we took in after you went on hiatus) prided themselves on being equally good in small man as they were in medium to large group play. The two metas have diverged so much over the past two years they're almost unrecognizable, hence the increased toxicity between the aficionados of the two different playstyles.

Lexxypwns

montiferus wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand hardcore competitive 12-man groups. The strategies are extremely complex, and without a solid grasp of combat mechanics most of the strategies fail to wipe out other players effectively. There's also Eye of the Storm, which is deftly woven into a group play that must be strategically used to maximize AoE damage potential and target displacement - the group play philosophy draws deep from ESO combat literature, for instance. The hardcore 16 man guilds understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of this play style, to realize that they're not just simple zergs - they say something deep about SKILL. As a consequence people who dislike hardcore competitive 16-man groups truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the skillfil play and group utility of the fair and balanced set "Earthgore," which itself is a cryptic reference to the lore behind the set, as it comes from 'the head of the elemental of Bloodroot Forge'. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Wrobel's genius unfolds itself on their computer monitor. What fools... how I pity them. joy. And yes by the way, I DO have an Earthgore tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- And even they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 AP ranks of my own (preferably lower) beforehand.

ROTFLMAO...

Funniest post I've read in a while.

You PC folks are lucky though despite all the drama. Xbox has absolutely ZERO GvG community. I would kill to do a 3v3 or 4v4 but there just aren't that many small groups out there.

Lets set it up. You’re in Res Handed, no? I’m sure we have the resources

Anazasi

Hubris

montiferus

Lexxypwns wrote: »

montiferus wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand hardcore competitive 12-man groups. The strategies are extremely complex, and without a solid grasp of combat mechanics most of the strategies fail to wipe out other players effectively. There's also Eye of the Storm, which is deftly woven into a group play that must be strategically used to maximize AoE damage potential and target displacement - the group play philosophy draws deep from ESO combat literature, for instance. The hardcore 16 man guilds understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of this play style, to realize that they're not just simple zergs - they say something deep about SKILL. As a consequence people who dislike hardcore competitive 16-man groups truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the skillfil play and group utility of the fair and balanced set "Earthgore," which itself is a cryptic reference to the lore behind the set, as it comes from 'the head of the elemental of Bloodroot Forge'. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Wrobel's genius unfolds itself on their computer monitor. What fools... how I pity them. joy. And yes by the way, I DO have an Earthgore tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- And even they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 AP ranks of my own (preferably lower) beforehand.

ROTFLMAO...

Funniest post I've read in a while.

You PC folks are lucky though despite all the drama. Xbox has absolutely ZERO GvG community. I would kill to do a 3v3 or 4v4 but there just aren't that many small groups out there.

Lets set it up. You’re in Res Handed, no? I’m sure we have the resources

I am not in Res Handed. Is that a guild? I could definitely use your help though. I just created a thread on it.