Ice staff balance suggestions comes with the Monthly Combat Update

Clefor

Glad to see those changes on heavy attack, but i wanna give a suggestion for a specific thing, the ice staff.

Ice staff passive is now looks tend to be a ice staff tanking job, but when comparing to one hand shield skill line, Frost staff only has 30% block cost reduction and 20% more amount damage can block, while one hand shield has 36% block cost reduction, 20% more amount damage can block, and 15% more damage can block from projectiles, which makes ice staff tanking weaker than one hand shield originally from the passive.

Not to mention when u use ice staff, u will lose one gear slot for the second full item set, plus one enchantment slot on the shield.

Even the basic taunt of ice staff needs fully charged heavy attack to work, it's very slow and need to cancel the block , which means ice staff tank need to sacrifice the time of blocking, also need to redo heavy attack like 3 sec before the taunt disappear. In the vet dungeon fight or vet trial, this is the difference between living and dead. if use Inner Fire or Inner Beast, the resource cost is too much.

If you're saying use some stamina skill instead, how many stamina support or tanking skill we can find? Vigor? Circle of Protection?

For all this disadvantages, here's my suggestion,

- Tri Focus: Reduce fully charged heavy attack time by XX%(maybe 30~40%?) when you have Ice staff slotted
- Ancient Knowledge: Frost staff reduce the cost of blocking by 36% , and 15% more damage can block from projectiles. (equal to one hand shield)
- Reduce the cost of Inner Fire approximately 30~50%

These suggestions are intend to make ice staff tanking same as one hand shield (but it still need to sacrifice blocking to taunt after all), if i'm missing something in ice tanking that cause inappropriate suggestions, please correct me.

Chilly-McFreeze

Dropping the old HA taunts screw up resource management and the usability of ice staves for anything else than the tank. So better move the taunt from HA to destructive reach.

Clefor

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Dropping the old HA taunts screw up resource management and the usability of ice staves for anything else than the tank. So better move the taunt from HA to destructive reach.

also a very good idea

aeowulf

I feel now it's been put in, it's been forgotten. Look at the single slot (asylum, masters & MA) destro staves, they are all offensive. Not saying this is wrong, but the effects are really not ice staff friendly.

Baconlad

You know what would set frost staff apart, if they made wall of elements and morphs give aoe taunt, but only for the duration that mobs are in it. As soon as you recast in another location they lose agro

Urza1234

The OP has good suggestions, I use a Frost Staff for tanking but not as a main bar, you cannot rely on it, all of the OP's criticisms are accurate, and his suggestions are in the right direction.

Not sure about giving it an inner fire passive bonus, that might be too much.

Kolzki

I'd say to either put a taunt on one of the active skills or drop taunt from the staff altogether as taunt is available from inner fire. Maybe replace the taunt with a debuff (breach?) or minor heroism.

IMO sword and board tanking is more effective than ice staff but requires more skill points to get the taunt and all the passives. As a bonus when ice staff tanking you also get a fully levelled DPS weapon for free. Alternatively, as a dps you get a free defensive mode. Yes it's far from the meta, but it is effectively free.

Clefor

Kolzki wrote: »

I'd say to either put a taunt on one of the active skills or drop taunt from the staff altogether as taunt is available from inner fire. Maybe replace the taunt with a debuff (breach?) or minor heroism.

IMO sword and board tanking is more effective than ice staff but requires more skill points to get the taunt and all the passives. As a bonus when ice staff tanking you also get a fully levelled DPS weapon for free. Alternatively, as a dps you get a free defensive mode. Yes it's far from the meta, but it is effectively free.

Ancient Knowledge passive require at least one destro staff skill slotted, so there's not too much skills choice for a full ice staff tank, i would say there're Element Drain and Blockade, ED already gives the Breach.

well, for the skill points...IMO no one will be short of them, for endgame player that's not a problem. And for dps defence, using light armor shield will be enough i guess.

Kolzki

Clefor wrote: »

Kolzki wrote: »

I'd say to either put a taunt on one of the active skills or drop taunt from the staff altogether as taunt is available from inner fire. Maybe replace the taunt with a debuff (breach?) or minor heroism.

IMO sword and board tanking is more effective than ice staff but requires more skill points to get the taunt and all the passives. As a bonus when ice staff tanking you also get a fully levelled DPS weapon for free. Alternatively, as a dps you get a free defensive mode. Yes it's far from the meta, but it is effectively free.

Ancient Knowledge passive require at least one destro staff skill slotted, so there's not too much skills choice for a full ice staff tank, i would say there're Element Drain and Blockade, ED already gives the Breach.

well, for the skill points...IMO no one will be short of them, for endgame player that's not a problem. And for dps defence, using light armor shield will be enough i guess.

All good points. I think the alternative would be to leave ice staff as CC's and introduce a new dedicated weapon/skill line for tanking. Call it an Alteration staff perhaps.

SirCritical

Sure, they will nerf S&B to make it equal to ice staff

Brrrofski

Just drop it.

Why would anyone use it over 1h&s anyway? You can tank with 15k Stam easilly for most stuff outside of trials. I doubt anyone is using an ice staff in trials either.

Tryxus

They need to turn Frost Staff into its own weapon (apart from Destruction Staff) if they ever want it become a proper tanking weapon

Psyonico

I suspect the reason for the lower stats is 3 fold

1. It is a ranged taunt
2. It returns resources
3. It adds a damage shield

I'm not saying it doesn't need a rework, it does, just saying it provides its own advantages.

idk

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Dropping the old HA taunts screw up resource management and the usability of ice staves for anything else than the tank. So better move the taunt from HA to destructive reach.

ThIs idea is just as bad. Some dps will use the destructive reach in their build and still taunt the boss.

It was a lazy idea to make the ice staff into a tanking weapon to begin with. Fixing something that's is broken by its retrofi design will leave us with a broken tool and may make it worse.

Autumnhart

Baconlad wrote: »

You know what would set frost staff apart, if they made wall of elements and morphs give aoe taunt, but only for the duration that mobs are in it. As soon as you recast in another location they lose agro

That would be interesting.

Clefor

idk wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Dropping the old HA taunts screw up resource management and the usability of ice staves for anything else than the tank. So better move the taunt from HA to destructive reach.

ThIs idea is just as bad. Some dps will use the destructive reach in their build and still taunt the boss.

It was a lazy idea to make the ice staff into a tanking weapon to begin with. Fixing something that's is broken by its retrofi design will leave us with a broken tool and may make it worse.

It's okay if only Ice staff destructive reach will taunt, since no dps will run ice staff.

Maura_Neysa

Brrrofski wrote: »

Just drop it.

Why would anyone use it over 1h&s anyway? You can tank with 15k Stam easilly for most stuff outside of trials. I doubt anyone is using an ice staff in trials either.

I vet trials tank with an Ice Staff back bar. I don't take Tri Focus. So my block always cost stamina. I'm not worried about the second 5 piece because I run a proc set (Alkosh/Torug's/Desert Rose/Wyrd Tree) on the weapons, so as long as I come back to the 1H/S often, its all good.


The worst part of Ice Staff tanking is actually something no one is mentioning. That's not having Battle Field Mobility.
I do not want to see the Ice Staff turning in to a magicka 1H/S, it should have its own strengths and weakness. For example, instead of equaling out the Block Cost/Mitigation, give it a different bonus like reduced effectiveness of snares. If I had battle field mobility on 1 bare and root immunity/reduction on the other, that would be interesting.

On an aesthetics note. I think they should change the way Ice Staff blocks. Use the same stance as 1H/S with the staff in the right hand to the side and rez an Shield made of ice in the left hand

Maura_Neysa

idk wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Dropping the old HA taunts screw up resource management and the usability of ice staves for anything else than the tank. So better move the taunt from HA to destructive reach.

ThIs idea is just as bad. Some dps will use the destructive reach in their build and still taunt the boss.

It was a lazy idea to make the ice staff into a tanking weapon to begin with. Fixing something that's is broken by its retrofi design will leave us with a broken tool and may make it worse.

I've seen more Ice Staffs in use since the change then I ever did before. I myself now back bar and Ice Staff on my Warden tank

Chims

I think more people use ice staff than you people think. I personally use ice staff on both bars for tanking but my character isn't doing vet dungeons or trials yet. However, I have tanked all vet dungeons in the past as a magplar all vet dungeons and honestly I don't think it will be a problem to tank with it on my warden.

The bonus of using it is you have more offensive capabilities. If you build a team around the tank just only tanking and doing nothing else then yes, its not going to be as good as S/B but that's not what its purpose is, its for hybrid dps tanks and does its job fine doing so. If your not doing trials I feel none of its short comings to tanking are even relevant. It's alternative way to tank, it doesn't need to be the same cookie cutter S/B style tank and I want to keep it in the destruction line so I can cast blockade while I am tanking for aoe based aggro.

The heavy attack is essentially a free taunt and shield. If you need a faster taunt then run inner fire, you shouldn't even have to use it as much because you can taunt with HA.

Also let's not forget that all this ice staff tanking provides chilled which gives a 15% damage reduction to further add to tanking. This doesn't affect just the tank but anyone else who takes damage. People tend to forget this fact when they compare the two.

Oakmontowls_ESO

Chims wrote: »

I think more people use ice staff than you people think. I personally use ice staff on both bars for tanking but my character isn't doing vet dungeons or trials yet. However, I have tanked all vet dungeons in the past as a magplar all vet dungeons and honestly I don't think it will be a problem to tank with it on my warden.

The bonus of using it is you have more offensive capabilities. If you build a team around the tank just only tanking and doing nothing else then yes, its not going to be as good as S/B but that's not what its purpose is, its for hybrid dps tanks and does its job fine doing so. If your not doing trials I feel none of its short comings to tanking are even relevant. It's alternative way to tank, it doesn't need to be the same cookie cutter S/B style tank and I want to keep it in the destruction line so I can cast blockade while I am tanking for aoe based aggro.

The heavy attack is essentially a free taunt and shield. If you need a faster taunt then run inner fire, you shouldn't even have to use it as much because you can taunt with HA.

Also let's not forget that all this ice staff tanking provides chilled which gives a 15% damage reduction to further add to tanking. This doesn't affect just the tank but anyone else who takes damage. People tend to forget this fact when they compare the two.

A s&b tank has access to minor maim (chilled) through heroic slash or multiple class based options.

Another big problem with ice staff tanking is not having easy access to major breach and fracture. This can be mitigated by running mark target but that is limited to night blades.

pteam

Can u link me to these proposed changes?

Chims

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

A s&b tank has access to minor maim (chilled) through heroic slash or multiple class based options.

Another big problem with ice staff tanking is not having easy access to major breach and fracture. This can be mitigated by running mark target but that is limited to night blades.

Ahh I forgot about heroic slash, my bad on that one. Ice staff does get weakness to elements to give major breach however.

idk

OP has some good points. However, even with all of them the ice staff is not ready for serious tanking. It's just doesn't offer utility for the group.

It's great for someone who wants to say I tank with an ice staff. However, S&B offers much more for the group having a tank that debuffs the target for an ice dps boost to the group.

As I said, OP makes some good points but they're secondary to the main reason the ice staff is not a good main hand choice to serious tanking.

leandro.800ub17_ESO

Just revert back changes and make ice dps again
Too many changes on passives and morphs would be needed and its hard to have both on one skill line
Having a magika tank option was a good idea but very bad implementation due to curent mechanics

WrathOfInnos

I had made a thread awhile back on changing the frost staff taunt. I proposed it should be attached to weakness to elements (only for frost, not lightning or inferno). This would allow a free ranged taunt with Major Breach for ice staff tanks, and free up frost DPS to use heavy attacks without taunting.

More details here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/375731/frost-staff-taunt-request#latest

Urza1234

aeowulf wrote: »

I feel now it's been put in, it's been forgotten. Look at the single slot (asylum, masters & MA) destro staves, they are all offensive. Not saying this is wrong, but the effects are really not ice staff friendly.

This about 6 times.

I sometimes feel like I would not trust ZOS with a sweetroll, because they would set it down and and forget where they put it, then I would get ants.

Where's that spellcrafting eh ZOS? You remember?
(not that I believe spell crafting was a deliverable promise in the first place)

Urza1234

idk wrote: »

OP has some good points. However, even with all of them the ice staff is not ready for serious tanking. It's just doesn't offer utility for the group.

It's great for someone who wants to say I tank with an ice staff. However, S&B offers much more for the group having a tank that debuffs the target for an ice dps boost to the group.

As I said, OP makes some good points but they're secondary to the main reason the ice staff is not a good main hand choice to serious tanking.

Thats not entirely true, Wall of Ice is actually fantastic. Also blocking with 2 different resource pools is fantastic, especially if you're like me and have either Desert Rose or Equilibrium.

Honestly the OP is mostly right, especially about the Ice-staff Taunt, its just too unwieldy.
I personally do not feel a big difference between Ice-staff blocking and S&B blocking running both on the same toon. Sure the math says the difference is there, but I personally cant really tell when actually using the damned stick.

Personally I would consider dropping S&B altogether if Pierce Armor wasnt such an overloaded ability. Its practically free, its got both MBreech/MFracture, and it taunts, that *** move does everything.

Maura_Neysa

Chims wrote: »

I think more people use ice staff than you people think. I personally use ice staff on both bars for tanking but my character isn't doing vet dungeons or trials yet. However, I have tanked all vet dungeons in the past as a magplar all vet dungeons and honestly I don't think it will be a problem to tank with it on my warden.

The bonus of using it is you have more offensive capabilities. If you build a team around the tank just only tanking and doing nothing else then yes, its not going to be as good as S/B but that's not what its purpose is, its for hybrid dps tanks and does its job fine doing so. If your not doing trials I feel none of its short comings to tanking are even relevant. It's alternative way to tank, it doesn't need to be the same cookie cutter S/B style tank and I want to keep it in the destruction line so I can cast blockade while I am tanking for aoe based aggro.

The heavy attack is essentially a free taunt and shield. If you need a faster taunt then run inner fire, you shouldn't even have to use it as much because you can taunt with HA.

Also let's not forget that all this ice staff tanking provides chilled which gives a 15% damage reduction to further add to tanking. This doesn't affect just the tank but anyone else who takes damage. People tend to forget this fact when they compare the two.

A main tank, anything less then vet is boring, even vet Eden/Spindle and the like aren’t very entertaining. I 1H/S & Ice Staff. Ice Staff is defiantly useable and even good on a tank. A heavy attack taunt is completely useless, the number of 2second windows in which I can afford to HA is to elusive and risky to make that a main stay. Personally I don’t even take that passive, I do NOT want my block costing magicka either and the damage shield is laughable. Damage Shields don’t get resistance, so unless you’re running a Blazing Shield tank, they’re all a waste, minus DK Hearthen Heart passive.

Maura_Neysa

leandro.800ub17_ESO wrote: »

Just revert back changes and make ice dps again
Too many changes on passives and morphs would be needed and its hard to have both on one skill line
Having a magika tank option was a good idea but very bad implementation due to curent mechanics

Ice was never DPS to start with. Do NOT go back, it absolutely is useable on a serious vet trial tank. I run it there so I know. You just have to build right, aka you need Major Fracture how ever you get it

Maura_Neysa

Chims wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

A s&b tank has access to minor maim (chilled) through heroic slash or multiple class based options.

Another big problem with ice staff tanking is not having easy access to major breach and fracture. This can be mitigated by running mark target but that is limited to night blades.

Ahh I forgot about heroic slash, my bad on that one. Ice staff does get weakness to elements to give major breach however.

Single target Minor Maim doesn’t come anywhere close to matching AOE Chill, but yes for the boss it’s there
Major Fracture (Decrease physical resistance by 5280)
Spoiler
One Hand and Shield Ability: Puncture+Morhps
Nightblade Assassination Ability: Mark Target+Morphs
Nightblade Shadow Ability: Surprise Attack (Morph of Veiled Strike)
Dragonknight Ardent Flame Ability: Noxious Breath (Morph of Fiery Breath) - AOE version
Warden Animal Companion Ability: Subterranean Assault (Morph of Scorch) AOE version

Wake up and get out of the box with your thinking

lucky_Sage

or go with my idea and remove frost tanking and blocking a give frost staffs increase spell pen and fully charged heavy attacks now roots the target for 2 seconds

also for all staffs now doesn't require a abilty slotted to get all the passives (why because stam weapons don't have to)

for other staffs aswell

fire staffs should give a rawr dmg buff to all abilities
shock staffs should now increase crit dmg

frost staff tanking wont work its called the destruction staff it should be for dmg only

come out with a melee magick weapon wiith 3 options
sword and staff
mace and staff
shield and staff

your staff chooses your element only thing element changes is dmg type and status effect the main hand weapon will determine how it works.