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Healer Expectations in Dungeons

danielclarkb16_ESO
danielclarkb16_ESO
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Just wanted a few opinions on this, so since I first started playing ESO, I've always played as DPS, both in solo content and in dungeons etc. However I was interested in playing a healer, mainly through dungeon content as I very rarely play any trials or play any form of PVP content. Naturally, as most people would, I researched through the forums and watched various Youtube videos, for any tips & tricks and ideas for a build. Now, whilst doing some research, a lot of people mentioned that as part of the healers role - they're expected to buff the rest of the group with various magika/stam buffs. Now, when I put this question to some of my guild mates - they disagreed with the argument that as long as your keeping the group alive and partake in doing some DPS - this is sufficient and will keep your group happy.

Which would you guys most agree with? Do you expect your healer to be placing buffs on the rest of the team or are you happy with them just keeping you alive and helping with the DPS?
  • gepe87
    gepe87
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    On trials im pure healer and buff/debuffer. On dungeons i help the DPS with some blockades, elemental rage, purifying light, refletive, dark flare and radiants.
    Gepe, General MagSorc | Gepe Telvanni, First Sergeant MagDK | Gepe Direnni, Colonel Magplar | Gepe Aundae, Sergeant Magblade | Gepe Greenheart, Mystic Stamden Gepe Ravenwatch MagSorc
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  • Ozstryker
    Ozstryker
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    Situational... if a group is good, and moving through quickly then I just heal with combat prayer and join the dps race... but, if dps is low, or a bit slow, I go full buff and heals, and Jesus beam down the stragglers...
    it really depends on the group for me..
  • Beardimus
    Beardimus
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    As a DPS all I need is healing. And to save me a slot, Major Breach

    As a healer I buff group, debuff enemy, help with resources and do side DPS (easiest on Sorc Healer)
    Xbox One | EU | EP
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  • FloppyTouch
    FloppyTouch
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    Healer is a bad dps that puts HoTs down and shards if everyone is doing well then just dps
  • danielclarkb16_ESO
    danielclarkb16_ESO
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    Next question then - could you guys recommend any mods that could help me with my buffs? As in - a mod that shows timers for how long they're up etc?
  • Illurian
    Illurian
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    Next question then - could you guys recommend any mods that could help me with my buffs? As in - a mod that shows timers for how long they're up etc?

    I use AUI, which keeps track of your buffs and debuffs. Srendarr keeps track of your ground aoes (elemental blockade, ritual etc)
    Kiss the chaos.
  • tommalmm
    tommalmm
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    Beardimus wrote: »
    As a DPS all I need is healing. And to save me a slot, Major Breach

    As a healer I buff group, debuff enemy, help with resources and do side DPS (easiest on Sorc Healer)

    Major breach is a tank's role. Unless you meant minor magickasteal? For magickasteal I prefer radiant aura rather than ele drain. It's aoe (shorter duration but I never had issues with a rotation) and aggroes mobs, helping tank to collect them all.
  • chris211
    chris211
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    healing springs is a must
  • Astrid_V
    Astrid_V
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    Healers are pretty much useless in every content except veteran trials and organised PvP groups.

    I always do dungeons as 3x DDs and 1x tank, but when sometimes I have some healer there, the most important thing for me is that he needs to debuff the bosses, buff DDs and help group members with sustain. Pure heals are not so necessary, magicka DDs will shield themselves, stamina DDs will use blade cloak and vigor, and tanks shouldn't have problems with survivability because bosses in dungeons are not very challenging. Of course if your group dps will be very low you can help them finish bosses with jesus beam etc.
    @ A.strid | Dunmer Magicka Nightblade | 1100+ CP | PC EU
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  • FloppyTouch
    FloppyTouch
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    Astrid_V wrote: »
    Healers are pretty much useless in every content except veteran trials and organised PvP groups.

    I always do dungeons as 3x DDs and 1x tank, but when sometimes I have some healer there, the most important thing for me is that he needs to debuff the bosses, buff DDs and help group members with sustain. Pure heals are not so necessary, magicka DDs will shield themselves, stamina DDs will use blade cloak and vigor, and tanks shouldn't have problems with survivability because bosses in dungeons are not very challenging. Of course if your group dps will be very low you can help them finish bosses with jesus beam etc.

    This^

    I don’t hate healer at all but the way this game is the role is just not needed. The thing is they should be needed in any group as a must. With all the class heals and shields a good group can just have one magic class slot a resto with healing ward for that oh crap moment. Other then that 4 DDs in easy vets and harder dlc vets are faster and better with 3 DDs and a tank
  • Mureel
    Mureel
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    Astrid_V wrote: »
    Healers are pretty much useless in every content except veteran trials and organised PvP groups.

    I always do dungeons as 3x DDs and 1x tank, but when sometimes I have some healer there, the most important thing for me is that he needs to debuff the bosses, buff DDs and help group members with sustain. Pure heals are not so necessary, magicka DDs will shield themselves, stamina DDs will use blade cloak and vigor, and tanks shouldn't have problems with survivability because bosses in dungeons are not very challenging. Of course if your group dps will be very low you can help them finish bosses with jesus beam etc.

    This^

    I don’t hate healer at all but the way this game is the role is just not needed. The thing is they should be needed in any group as a must. With all the class heals and shields a good group can just have one magic class slot a resto with healing ward for that oh crap moment. Other then that 4 DDs in easy vets and harder dlc vets are faster and better with 3 DDs and a tank

    and it makes me SAD too because I LOVE my healer - but I am Just SICK to death of trials now. Really like just same thing over and over - I am just out of love for it. So I am always running around on my NB or Sorc - but I should maybe not read the forums because reading this stuff just makes me feel bummed that one of my fave chars is basically useless except in content I've been doing for YEARS and I am just *meh* anymore.
    You know you don't have to be here right?
  • Urza1234
    Urza1234
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    Astrid_V wrote: »
    Healers are pretty much useless in every content except veteran trials and organised PvP groups.

    I always do dungeons as 3x DDs and 1x tank, but when sometimes I have some healer there, the most important thing for me is that he needs to debuff the bosses, buff DDs and help group members with sustain. Pure heals are not so necessary, magicka DDs will shield themselves, stamina DDs will use blade cloak and vigor, and tanks shouldn't have problems with survivability because bosses in dungeons are not very challenging. Of course if your group dps will be very low you can help them finish bosses with jesus beam etc.

    This^

    I don’t hate healer at all but the way this game is the role is just not needed. The thing is they should be needed in any group as a must. With all the class heals and shields a good group can just have one magic class slot a resto with healing ward for that oh crap moment. Other then that 4 DDs in easy vets and harder dlc vets are faster and better with 3 DDs and a tank

    I've been thinking about this a fair amount.

    Why are healers so useless in most content? Why in even vet trials are they there mostly for buffs?

    Im going to clarify that from here on I'm talking mainly about content that isnt vet trials.

    Maybe monsters need to crit, maybe monsters need to defile, monsters need to do something to challenge healers a bit. Too much of what causes a DPS's death is just the DPS being dumb and standing somewhere wrong, there aren't enough mechanics that you as a healer and only as a healer can really interact with. Why cant there be a healing ultimate that acts like a targetable Earthgore proc? Grand Healing and Blessing of Protection are a nice idea in that area based healing is a fun mechanic, except that they're so weak that its not worth having your team group up for them except for the minor berserk. As FloppyTouch says all a "healer" needs in most content is Ward for an oh crap, and maybe Panacea for the like 2 dungeons that have a healing check, both of which auto target and only require the healer to realize that "oh yeah, someone is finally taking damage".

    IMHO the first step that I would like to see tried is putting Rez on a cooldown, its just too available. When the same idiot DPS gets 1-shot by mechanics 6 times per fight and you can just pick him up again, where is the incentive to focus on healing? Ward him if you can save him, pick him up if you cant, so boring.

    I figure that if Rez is put on a cooldown it will force DPS to think about their effective health a bit more, because a mistake will become a wipe rather than a nuisance. Too much of DPS survivability imo is basically binary. They're fine, they're fine, they're fine, then they're dead because they stood in red.

    The DPS standing in red is not an interesting mechanic to deal with as a healer, its not even that interesting as a DPS. There need to be more mehanics to deal with defensively. Can we give resto an ally targeted reflect, and make reflecting projectiles a meaningful mechanic. The way the tank can block Lord Warden Dusk's Flurry Attack in ICP is really interesting, can we expand on this a bit for healers? I'm not talking the once in a while randomly targeted chunk spell that half the bosses in the game have, im talking something a bit more interactive, because the randomly targeted chunk spell is either a nuisance because it doesnt 1-shot, or its boring because it does 1-shot.

    Why are debuffs basically not a mechanic we ever have to deal with in most PVE content? There are tons of potentially interesting debuffs in eso and ways they can be applied in a fight.

    Idk, TL:DR I feel like healers arent challenged enough, especially not in interesting ways, outside of mechanics that frequently the DPS is more responsible for than they are.

  • Illurian
    Illurian
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    Urza1234 wrote: »
    Astrid_V wrote: »
    Healers are pretty much useless in every content except veteran trials and organised PvP groups.

    I always do dungeons as 3x DDs and 1x tank, but when sometimes I have some healer there, the most important thing for me is that he needs to debuff the bosses, buff DDs and help group members with sustain. Pure heals are not so necessary, magicka DDs will shield themselves, stamina DDs will use blade cloak and vigor, and tanks shouldn't have problems with survivability because bosses in dungeons are not very challenging. Of course if your group dps will be very low you can help them finish bosses with jesus beam etc.

    This^

    I don’t hate healer at all but the way this game is the role is just not needed. The thing is they should be needed in any group as a must. With all the class heals and shields a good group can just have one magic class slot a resto with healing ward for that oh crap moment. Other then that 4 DDs in easy vets and harder dlc vets are faster and better with 3 DDs and a tank

    Idk, TL:DR I feel like healers arent challenged enough, especially not in interesting ways, outside of mechanics that frequently the DPS is more responsible for than they are.

    To be fair, the same can be said for all of the roles since what is considered "challenging" is so subjective.

    Smiliarly to how you boiled down healing:

    Tanking can be boiled down to taunt and block.

    DPS can be boiled down to muscle memory rotation and move out of circles.

    Albeit being easy to say, it is unfair and inaccurate to state that healers are less challenging as a role in group content than the other roles.
    Kiss the chaos.
  • AcadianPaladin
    AcadianPaladin
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    I view healing as reactive and driven by how / what the group is doing. That extends to slotting as well - I have more good skills trained up than slots for so that I can reslot around before a mission if needed of if the group leader wants. Generally though, here is my priorities:

    - Keep yourself alive. It is easy to focus your attention and heals on others and neglect yourself - both in skill usage and how you build. When I die though, it is a horrible feeling to helplessly wait for a rez that will never come because my group is wiping - because their healer is down. I slot Channeled Focus to help here - defense + magaika return and it has allowed me to focus on my team better.
    - Healing (doh). Heals over time (I use 3 of them). Area heals like healing springs and/or combat prayer. Burst heals like Breath of Life or a Matriarch.
    - Help with resources with things like Elemental Drain, Shards, Orbs.
    - Debuff boss with things like Elemental Drain, Purifying LIght.
    - Dps. Shards, Purifying Light contribute to this. Many use Blockade as it contributes to off balance as well.

    Too many good skills, not enough slots! :)
    Edited by AcadianPaladin on October 30, 2017 11:20AM
    PC NA PvE
  • Unlikely_Ghostbuster
    Unlikely_Ghostbuster
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    Illurian wrote: »
    Mureel wrote: »
    Astrid_V wrote: »
    Healers are pretty much useless in every content except veteran trials and organised PvP groups.

    I always do dungeons as 3x DDs and 1x tank, but when sometimes I have some healer there, the most important thing for me is that he needs to debuff the bosses, buff DDs and help group members with sustain. Pure heals are not so necessary, magicka DDs will shield themselves, stamina DDs will use blade cloak and vigor, and tanks shouldn't have problems with survivability because bosses in dungeons are not very challenging. Of course if your group dps will be very low you can help them finish bosses with jesus beam etc.

    This^

    I don’t hate healer at all but the way this game is the role is just not needed. The thing is they should be needed in any group as a must. With all the class heals and shields a good group can just have one magic class slot a resto with healing ward for that oh crap moment. Other then that 4 DDs in easy vets and harder dlc vets are faster and better with 3 DDs and a tank

    and it makes me SAD too because I LOVE my healer - but I am Just SICK to death of trials now. Really like just same thing over and over - I am just out of love for it. So I am always running around on my NB or Sorc - but I should maybe not read the forums because reading this stuff just makes me feel bummed that one of my fave chars is basically useless except in content I've been doing for YEARS and I am just *meh* anymore.

    The forums have always been a place for people to stroke their epeens. Don't listen to them. It might work for their group of players, but for the general player base, a healer is practically required.

    In my experience, even in the higher end groups, a good healer is generally at the very least appreciated.

    Seconded -- if a healer is doing a good job, then more often than not, nobody cares. I have an alt templar I take out to heal vet dungeons. 99 times out of 100, nobody complains.

    With my templar, I keep heal-over-time spells up on everyone as often as possible. I make sure there's always an extended ritual down at all times, but I ensure that I'm using skills that aren't AOE spells so the DPS can keep moving. In boss fights, I work shards into my rotation for the tank.

    For a standard vet dungeon pick-up-group, it gets the job done.

    If I were going to attempt to heal a trial, then I'd probably be running SPC, re-morph illustrious healing to healing springs, and I'd probably put orbs in place of one of the attacks on my off-bar.

    There are a few things to keep in mind.

    First, you can't heal someone through a one-shot attack -- not your fault if someone gets dropped like that. It's not your fault if the tank didn't taunt and/or the DPS invested precisely zero points into their resistance.

    Second, it's your job to TRY to heal the DPS through damage they could not avoid, but it's also the DPS's job to TRY to avoid that damage. My main is a DPS, so I can assure you, situational awareness is NOT an unreasonable expectation. In other words, it's your primary concern to keep the tank alive to avoid a party-wipe, so the DPS are secondary.

    Third, don't try to rez people unless you're certain you can get them up before the tank dies (ie, the opportunity is there). Try if you have no choice (if everyone is down). But generally speaking, the DPS should be handling it. In a pinch, the tank can attempt to pick someone up, in which case, it's your job to try to keep the not-blocking tank alive. In a DESPERATE situation, such as 3/4 are down (or the DPS just refuses to rez), then ya, throw down as much AOE healing as you can around the body and attempt the rez. More often than not, though -- just don't do it.

    Fourth, try to use healing gear that is situational, like SPC for trials and veteran DLC dungeons. A resto-staff should be an unspoken certainty -- at least I thought it was until I met a healer in BRF who was trying to heal us all with warden skills while holding a sword & shield. Try to find a monster helm set with a healing proc.

    Lastly, know when to quit. If you're in a party that has put the success or failure of the dungeon upon you, then you probably want to drop and find a new group. If all the tank does is hold block, demanding a steady stream of shards and heals, then you're probably better off finding another group. If the DPS constantly and defiantly "stands in the stupid" 100% CC-free despite you asking them not to do so, then you're probably better off finding a new group.
  • Jaimeh
    Jaimeh
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    I think healing and providing support are equally important; full health procs SPC, buffs help DDs do more damage and not run out of resources, and debuffs make the boss easier to kill. Ideally these two aspects should be balanced, however, for most of the content players don’t need much healing, so in that case a healer can focus more on support, and even dps’ing, and then there is harder content, or certain phases in a boss fight, where survivability takes precedence. When I’m healing, I always try adjust my playstyle accordingly, and cater it to the group’s needs, and the nature of the content.
    @stargold

    PC/NA CP810

    AD Nefelyn - Altmer Sorcerer - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror ǀ Master Angler ǀ Hero of all the things (fine, some of the things)
    DC Bastiene - Breton Templar - Healer ǀ The Flawless Conqueror ǀ Prefect
    AD Niobeh - Dunmer Nightblade - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror ǀ Black Market Mogul ǀ Master Thief ǀ Silencer (but we don’t talk about that)
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    DC Sydhe Narjes - Redguard Nightblade - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    DC Eva Saint Claire - Breton Warden - Healer ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    EP Rruns-With-Scissors ­- Argonian Dragoknight - Tank ǀ He’s a good boy, OK Bront?
    EP Moiranni Deyr - Dunmer Dragonknight - Healer ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    DC Anur Imagua - Redguard Templar - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    AD Azoke Sen - Imperial Sorcerer - Tank ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
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    DC Zuwane Okoye - Redguard Dragonknight - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror

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  • Valykc
    Valykc
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    In my opinion, in order of most important to least important it would be: 1. Keep Everyone Alive, 2. Maintain Magicka, 3. Buff and Debuff, 4. If able, drop spears for AoE damage and group sustain and blockade for AoE damage, only if you have enough Magicka to do 1 and 3 and still apply some Damage DoTs
    Edited by Valykc on October 30, 2017 12:30PM
  • Mureel
    Mureel
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    Illurian wrote: »
    Mureel wrote: »
    Astrid_V wrote: »
    Healers are pretty much useless in every content except veteran trials and organised PvP groups.

    I always do dungeons as 3x DDs and 1x tank, but when sometimes I have some healer there, the most important thing for me is that he needs to debuff the bosses, buff DDs and help group members with sustain. Pure heals are not so necessary, magicka DDs will shield themselves, stamina DDs will use blade cloak and vigor, and tanks shouldn't have problems with survivability because bosses in dungeons are not very challenging. Of course if your group dps will be very low you can help them finish bosses with jesus beam etc.

    This^

    I don’t hate healer at all but the way this game is the role is just not needed. The thing is they should be needed in any group as a must. With all the class heals and shields a good group can just have one magic class slot a resto with healing ward for that oh crap moment. Other then that 4 DDs in easy vets and harder dlc vets are faster and better with 3 DDs and a tank

    and it makes me SAD too because I LOVE my healer - but I am Just SICK to death of trials now. Really like just same thing over and over - I am just out of love for it. So I am always running around on my NB or Sorc - but I should maybe not read the forums because reading this stuff just makes me feel bummed that one of my fave chars is basically useless except in content I've been doing for YEARS and I am just *meh* anymore.

    The forums have always been a place for people to stroke their epeens. Don't listen to them. It might work for their group of players, but for the general player base, a healer is practically required.

    In my experience, even in the higher end groups, a good healer is generally at the very least appreciated.

    Oh yeah I can have a spot for my healer anytime I want it. I myself however also note that with good DPS in 4 man content other than some DLC Vet Dungeons, I can see how much faster it goes 3dps.

    I love healing and I am really good at it. I just can see where it's unneeded - esp due to so much self heals and shields.
    You know you don't have to be here right?
  • Runefang
    Runefang
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    Aside from healing you MUST have the following:

    Trials - Buffs, debuffs and synergies. Lots of synergies.
    Vet Dungeons - Buffs, debuffs and damage. Synergies only when asked.
    Normal Dungeons - Damage

    If you don't provide healing + something else then you're really a drain on the group overall. ESO should never, ever be full time healing. If you feel the need to heal non-stop the group is bad.

    Now if you're just learning to heal it's understandable to focus on the job at hand, but you'll get passed that and actually be bored 90% of the time unless you do something else.
  • Pwnyridah
    Pwnyridah
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    This is the best coment: "As a healer I buff group, debuff enemy, help with resources and do side DPS (easiest on Sorc Healer)" which in no way mentions heals lol.
  • Runefang
    Runefang
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    Pwnyridah wrote: »
    This is the best coment: "As a healer I buff group, debuff enemy, help with resources and do side DPS (easiest on Sorc Healer)" which in no way mentions heals lol.

    Especially since it was preceded immediately by "As a DPS all I need is healing
  • exeeter702
    exeeter702
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    Beardimus wrote: »
    As a DPS all I need is healing. And to save me a slot, Major Breach

    As a healer I buff group, debuff enemy, help with resources and do side DPS (easiest on Sorc Healer)

    No actualluly. Nb healer will trounce a sorc healer in the dps department.
  • exeeter702
    exeeter702
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    Urza1234 wrote: »
    Astrid_V wrote: »
    Healers are pretty much useless in every content except veteran trials and organised PvP groups.

    I always do dungeons as 3x DDs and 1x tank, but when sometimes I have some healer there, the most important thing for me is that he needs to debuff the bosses, buff DDs and help group members with sustain. Pure heals are not so necessary, magicka DDs will shield themselves, stamina DDs will use blade cloak and vigor, and tanks shouldn't have problems with survivability because bosses in dungeons are not very challenging. Of course if your group dps will be very low you can help them finish bosses with jesus beam etc.

    This^

    I don’t hate healer at all but the way this game is the role is just not needed. The thing is they should be needed in any group as a must. With all the class heals and shields a good group can just have one magic class slot a resto with healing ward for that oh crap moment. Other then that 4 DDs in easy vets and harder dlc vets are faster and better with 3 DDs and a tank

    I've been thinking about this a fair amount.

    Why are healers so useless in most content? Why in even vet trials are they there mostly for buffs?

    Im going to clarify that from here on I'm talking mainly about content that isnt vet trials.

    Maybe monsters need to crit, maybe monsters need to defile, monsters need to do something to challenge healers a bit. Too much of what causes a DPS's death is just the DPS being dumb and standing somewhere wrong, there aren't enough mechanics that you as a healer and only as a healer can really interact with. Why cant there be a healing ultimate that acts like a targetable Earthgore proc? Grand Healing and Blessing of Protection are a nice idea in that area based healing is a fun mechanic, except that they're so weak that its not worth having your team group up for them except for the minor berserk. As FloppyTouch says all a "healer" needs in most content is Ward for an oh crap, and maybe Panacea for the like 2 dungeons that have a healing check, both of which auto target and only require the healer to realize that "oh yeah, someone is finally taking damage".

    IMHO the first step that I would like to see tried is putting Rez on a cooldown, its just too available. When the same idiot DPS gets 1-shot by mechanics 6 times per fight and you can just pick him up again, where is the incentive to focus on healing? Ward him if you can save him, pick him up if you cant, so boring.

    I figure that if Rez is put on a cooldown it will force DPS to think about their effective health a bit more, because a mistake will become a wipe rather than a nuisance. Too much of DPS survivability imo is basically binary. They're fine, they're fine, they're fine, then they're dead because they stood in red.

    The DPS standing in red is not an interesting mechanic to deal with as a healer, its not even that interesting as a DPS. There need to be more mehanics to deal with defensively. Can we give resto an ally targeted reflect, and make reflecting projectiles a meaningful mechanic. The way the tank can block Lord Warden Dusk's Flurry Attack in ICP is really interesting, can we expand on this a bit for healers? I'm not talking the once in a while randomly targeted chunk spell that half the bosses in the game have, im talking something a bit more interactive, because the randomly targeted chunk spell is either a nuisance because it doesnt 1-shot, or its boring because it does 1-shot.

    Why are debuffs basically not a mechanic we ever have to deal with in most PVE content? There are tons of potentially interesting debuffs in eso and ways they can be applied in a fight.

    Idk, TL:DR I feel like healers arent challenged enough, especially not in interesting ways, outside of mechanics that frequently the DPS is more responsible for than they are.

    This is a symptom of player coddling due to templar healing.
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    For vet dungeons I'm happy with SPC, combat prayer, and ele drain. A few heals wouldn't hurt either, like mutagen, springs, and BoL. Outside of that just do some DPS. In trials, things like orbs, shards, master resto, worm become more useful for sustain.
  • abelsgmx
    abelsgmx
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    You must know a lot of people don't know hot to dodge roll, block, taunt (tanks) or stay out of aoes, if any of this people die, they think healer is gulty of their bad play, they spect that healer do all the team work
  • DoctorESO
    DoctorESO
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    .
    Edited by DoctorESO on September 23, 2018 1:45AM
  • Marginis
    Marginis
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    In my experience, the DPS just have to stay alive and deal as much damage as possible.

    Tanks MUST stay alive, taunt everything, and help with buffs/debuffs.

    Healers basically just keep everyone alive so they can fulfill that part of their role, and then just do anything else they can. So if a DPS goes down, the healer should be the one to revive them, so long as the tank isn't terrible. If the tank goes down, you may need to off-tank, being able to stay alive better than a DPS. If the tank isn't doing all the buffs, help buff. If the tank and DPS are good as is, join in doing dps.

    This is just my experience of course. Even as an inexperienced tank I can keep a few team buffs up constantly by myself. However, I don't usually run Warhorn myself, so that's one thing a healer could help with (with me tanking, anyway).
    @Marginis on PC, Senpai Fluffy on Xbox, Founder of Magicka. Also known as Kha'jiri, The Night Mother, Ma'iq, Jane Shepard, Damia, Kintyra, Zoor Do Kest, You, and a few others.
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