Update on "We're Looking into it" for 2H Weapons/Staves Counting for 2 Slots?

GrumpyDuckling

How's the investigation going, ZOS? I would love to be able to use a bow and be able to play with this fun 5-5-2 build:

Maw of the Infernal (2)
Defiler (5)
Morkuldin (5)

Because Maw and Morkuldin require light/heavy attacks to proc, it means I have to get up close into melee range and whack away with melee weapons to activate Morkuldin (because I can only slot 4 pieces on my bow bar).

Kanar

Look, I use 2h/bow in both PvE and PvP and I feel the pain of sacrificing a monster 2pc bonus for 2 5pc set bonuses. But, stop asking for this; it's a bad idea. A 2h weapon is A SINGLE WEAPON. Not two items. If they give you this then they are going to nerf those weapon lines; or they are going to make 2 DW weapons count as a single set item, ala the dk stone fist "buff" where they nerfed petrify down to 8m.

If one of these weapon lines is underperforming in some area then it should be addressed specifically with ability buffs.

CavalryPK

Kanar wrote: »

Look, I use 2h/bow in both PvE and PvP and I feel the pain of sacrificing a monster 2pc bonus for 2 5pc set bonuses. But, stop asking for this; it's a bad idea. A 2h weapon is A SINGLE WEAPON. Not two items. If they give you this then they are going to nerf those weapon lines; or they are going to make 2 DW weapons count as a single set item, ala the dk stone fist "buff" where they nerfed petrify down to 8m.

If one of these weapon lines is underperforming in some area then it should be addressed specifically with ability buffs.

PFft.. if 2 hand weapon is a single weapon then why do you need to hands to wield it. bwahahahaha

Joy_Division

Kanar wrote: »

Look, I use 2h/bow in both PvE and PvP and I feel the pain of sacrificing a monster 2pc bonus for 2 5pc set bonuses. But, stop asking for this; it's a bad idea. A 2h weapon is A SINGLE WEAPON. Not two items. If they give you this then they are going to nerf those weapon lines; or they are going to make 2 DW weapons count as a single set item, ala the dk stone fist "buff" where they nerfed petrify down to 8m.

If one of these weapon lines is underperforming in some area then it should be addressed specifically with ability buffs.

Yes, a 2h weapon is A SINGLE WEAPON, thank you for screaming at me.

Now, why does pair of swords or axes count for two items but not a pair of gloves or boots? I mean if we are so bent on counting the number of items, perhaps we ought to be consistent.

And I'm still not sure why exactly a belt should count as item but not underwear (must this item of clothing be seen?) or say suspenders (must this item of clothing be considered fashionable to be eligible as a set bonus?)

Why aren't quiver/arrows considered items? I mean, the Bow and Arrow are two items (see that, bow and arrow), but somehow it counts as one item set. What's that, it's part of a single weapon system? OK, fine, then why is a sword and shield count separately as it's also part of a single weapon system?

Trying to recognize logic or rationale in ZoS's system is futile because it's anything but. If people like the system, that's fine, but can they please come up with better rationale to defend it because what it usually boils down to is an arbitrary defense of the status quo simply because that's how it has been

sly007

Kanar wrote: »

Look, I use 2h/bow in both PvE and PvP and I feel the pain of sacrificing a monster 2pc bonus for 2 5pc set bonuses. But, stop asking for this; it's a bad idea. A 2h weapon is A SINGLE WEAPON. Not two items. If they give you this then they are going to nerf those weapon lines; or they are going to make 2 DW weapons count as a single set item, ala the dk stone fist "buff" where they nerfed petrify down to 8m.

If one of these weapon lines is underperforming in some area then it should be addressed specifically with ability buffs.

I do not agree. Redargless of how many items make up a set, I believe that the 2handed weapons should be considered towards a the 2 parts of a set bonus. Monster sets are practically a must have. The only weapons that will not benefit from this change would be the unique weapons.

Danksta

CavalryPK wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

Look, I use 2h/bow in both PvE and PvP and I feel the pain of sacrificing a monster 2pc bonus for 2 5pc set bonuses. But, stop asking for this; it's a bad idea. A 2h weapon is A SINGLE WEAPON. Not two items. If they give you this then they are going to nerf those weapon lines; or they are going to make 2 DW weapons count as a single set item, ala the dk stone fist "buff" where they nerfed petrify down to 8m.

If one of these weapon lines is underperforming in some area then it should be addressed specifically with ability buffs.

PFft.. if 2 hand weapon is a single weapon then why do you need to hands to wield it. bwahahahaha

Because it's big.

Kanar

Despite your disagreement about single item vs two items, the real disagreement is in the mechanics. You guys just aren't considering the tradeoff of a change like this. Are 2h, bow and staves so much underpowered that they need a buff on the level of a 5pc set or 2pc monster set? Bow is mandatory for PvE DPS, 2h is the best melee weapon for PvP and...well its hard to compare staves cause there's no DW equivalent. So if those weapons don't need this much of a buff, then what's gonna happen? That's right a nerf.

Also, this will make the supposed "best" (vMA, master, vSA) weapons comparatively worse, but would they see a buff to make it up?

Finally and this is more subjective, it's good to have some variety in item options. Tradeoff a 5pc set for the advantages of 2h, or go DW? Those types of choices make character building interesting.

STEVIL

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

How's the investigation going, ZOS? I would love to be able to use a bow and be able to play with this fun 5-5-2 build:

Maw of the Infernal (2)
Defiler (5)
Morkuldin (5)

Because Maw and Morkuldin require light/heavy attacks to proc, it means I have to get up close into melee range and whack away with melee weapons to activate Morkuldin (because I can only slot 4 pieces on my bow bar).

ok so let me state the obvious - choices matter and choices should matter.

To get those three sets all proc at the same time needs you to make certain choices, just like when you decided this was what you wanted to do.

So that particular combo is possibly best suited to your goal using either DW or SnB.

Not going to bother getting into the already explained backbar set choices vs frontbar set choices.

But the broader picture is that this scope of change goes way beyond the minor example you post here and is a major game balance changer for many weapons and even some sets. unless their is a major impbalance issue that cannot be solved with smaller targeted scope adjustments, its silly to make this kind of global change for "the heck of it."

Finally, that way lies sameness... goes further to making weapon choice more cosmetic than meaningfull and more folks able to wear the same 12pc sets... more bland, less diversity... no fun.


.

SirAndy

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Update on "We're Looking into it" for 2H Weapons/Staves Counting for 2 Slots?

Did i miss that memo?



Either way, i really hope they don't kill build diversity by making every weapon choice the same.

Kanar

Joy_Division wrote: »

....why does pair of swords or axes count for two items but not a pair of gloves or boots? I mean if we are so bent on counting the number of items, perhaps we ought to be consistent.

And I'm still not sure why exactly a belt should count as item but not underwear (must this item of clothing be seen?) or say suspenders (must this item of clothing be considered fashionable to be eligible as a set bonus?)

Why aren't quiver/arrows considered items? I mean, the Bow and Arrow are two items (see that, bow and arrow), but somehow it counts as one item set. What's that, it's part of a single weapon system? OK, fine, then why is a sword and shield count separately as it's also part of a single weapon system?

Trying to recognize logic or rationale in ZoS's system is futile because it's anything but. If people like the system, that's fine, but can they please come up with better rationale to defend it because what it usually boils down to is an arbitrary defense of the status quo simply because that's how it has been

The logic does have a precedent. This game is an RPG and so hearkens back to the traditions of tabletop gaming created by Gygax, Arneson, et al. From at least as far back as AD&D (from my personal experience) a character has been able to wear 2 magical rings, 1 magical necklace/amulet/neck piece, a pair of gloves, gauntlets or bracers(giving one bonus not two different kinds), a pair of boots. Further, a magical two handed sword did not give a +10 bonus, it gave a max of +5 bonus just like a single sword. You could dual wield 2 +5 longswords in dnd. Likewise you could use a magic sword and magic shield and benefit from both. The only point you're right on is bow, where you can use a magical bow and a quiver (of elhona for example), and you could even use magical arrows.

Since, as you said, it's arbitrary (why no magical panties?) then what makes sense is to fall back on historical precedent. Aka, the history of dungeons and dragons.

SirAndy

Joy_Division wrote: »

Now, why does pair of swords or axes count for two items but not a pair of gloves or boots?

Because both gloves and boots always come in pairs and are pretty much useless as single items.

The same is not true for axes or swords ...

Brutusmax1mus

This would require rebalancing(nerfing). There would be so many over powered builds in pvp if this was the case.

This is a huge reason 2h isn't used in pve though.

Ankael07

No amount of buff to 2h,bow or stave passives can make up for the choice of having a 5th piece bonus out of 100+ sets in the game.

WrathOfInnos

Fully support the idea of any 2 handed weapon counting as 2 set pieces. It fills 2 of you 12 gear slots on your character window.

With dual wield or sword and shield you can use any 2 5-piece sets, then choose either a monster set or a weapon set (Maelstrom, master, asylum). This works fine since a good weapon set is about as powerful as a good monster set.

With and 2 handed weapon this choice is taken away. No 1-piece monster helm is as effective as a 1-piece weapon set (Maelstrom, Master, Asylum). This is what reduces build diversity, and why monster sets are rarely used on staff, bow, healing, or greatsword builds.

DocFrost72

Ankael07 wrote: »

No amount of buff to 2h,bow or stave passives can make up for the choice of having a 5th piece bonus out of 100+ sets in the game.

I disagree here. Imagine if staves or bow did more damage to targets under 25% health? Imagine a two hander doing 15% more damage to stunned, immobilized, disoriented or silenced enemies?

Ankael07

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

No amount of buff to 2h,bow or stave passives can make up for the choice of having a 5th piece bonus out of 100+ sets in the game.

I disagree here. Imagine if staves or bow did more damage to targets under 25% health? Imagine a two hander doing 15% more damage to stunned, immobilized, disoriented or silenced enemies?

Its the choice variety Im talking about here. Otherwise they could give a flat 25% damage bonus and call it a day

DocFrost72

Ankael07 wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

No amount of buff to 2h,bow or stave passives can make up for the choice of having a 5th piece bonus out of 100+ sets in the game.

I disagree here. Imagine if staves or bow did more damage to targets under 25% health? Imagine a two hander doing 15% more damage to stunned, immobilized, disoriented or silenced enemies?

Its the choice variety Im talking about here. Otherwise they could give a flat 25% damage bonus and call it a day

You could very much give 2h, bow, and staves distinct advantages that made them feel unique without sacrificing damage.

2h weapons need splash damage to six targets at 100% splash with heavy and light attacks, like staves have.

Staves could have a buff to the passive that procs secondary effects (elemental force).

Bows could receive both critical chance AND critical damage modifier from accuracy.

These are off the top of my head, and are not comprehensive of course.

As for itemization, I tried arguing that a long time ago and was told one sword is one weapon. Now I'm hoping those same folks try to help push the two gloves are two apparel pieces, but so far I've gotten silly responses there too. I guess you could say I've tired of that argument and just want a dang buff to pve 2h weapons already.

SodanTok

Funnily enough. With current meta the ability to have 12 pieces (so 5/5/2) is far smaller deal than the fact DW

1. gets to have 2 enchants
2. gets to have 2 traits
3. gets to have infused on mainhand that is for some reason affecting offhand enchant
4. gets to have enchants with same value as on 2H/bow/staff
5. gets to have infused trait with same value as on 2H/bow/staff
6. gets to have nirn trait with same value as on bow/staff and technically 2h (its % so same number but bigger gain for 2H)

Those are all things that werent there last time ZoS said they were looking into making 2H as 2 pieces. Not in relevant manner that is (except having 2 enchants, but even the second one was barely proccable I think)

s7732425ub17_ESO

Not going to happen. Would you be able to use a staff with two different set pieces? How would drops work like that? How do you craft an item from multiple sets? Why do melee users get to use two different sets but everyone else doesn't?

Strider__Roshin

I think it would be a great idea. Every build should have access to a 5/5/2. DW already out DPS's the 2H by 8-9k DPS. The 2H really needs some love.

STEVIL

Ankael07 wrote: »

No amount of buff to 2h,bow or stave passives can make up for the choice of having a 5th piece bonus out of 100+ sets in the game.

Its called "data".

Every playtest and every in game live piece of data has been done with these differences already over years of play. That data feeds change and metrics.

The myth that the hundreds of sets makes balancing the game with different set counts impossible or even significantly more difficult is hilarious given how much difference there are between sets and how few actually impact live play.

STEVIL

Ankael07 wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

No amount of buff to 2h,bow or stave passives can make up for the choice of having a 5th piece bonus out of 100+ sets in the game.

I disagree here. Imagine if staves or bow did more damage to targets under 25% health? Imagine a two hander doing 15% more damage to stunned, immobilized, disoriented or silenced enemies?

Its the choice variety Im talking about here. Otherwise they could give a flat 25% damage bonus and call it a day

You have the choice variety now... If you want to use a 5 5 2 build choose weapons and such to support that build.

Its not choice "variety" to get the SAME weapons set count while making DIFFERENT choices... Its the opposite in fact.

Might as well argue for more variety in Neapolitan ice cream by replacing strawberry and chocolate with brown colored vanilla and pink colored vanilla cuz you prefer it to all be vanilla but in white, pink and brown.

Apache_Kid

This would literally break what little balance we have into oblivion. It will never happen either

Ranger209

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

This would require rebalancing(nerfing). There would be so many over powered builds in pvp if this was the case.

This is a huge reason 2h isn't used in pve though.

So 2 handers are like wardens?

Vapirko

Joy_Division wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

Look, I use 2h/bow in both PvE and PvP and I feel the pain of sacrificing a monster 2pc bonus for 2 5pc set bonuses. But, stop asking for this; it's a bad idea. A 2h weapon is A SINGLE WEAPON. Not two items. If they give you this then they are going to nerf those weapon lines; or they are going to make 2 DW weapons count as a single set item, ala the dk stone fist "buff" where they nerfed petrify down to 8m.

If one of these weapon lines is underperforming in some area then it should be addressed specifically with ability buffs.

Yes, a 2h weapon is A SINGLE WEAPON, thank you for screaming at me.

Now, why does pair of swords or axes count for two items but not a pair of gloves or boots? I mean if we are so bent on counting the number of items, perhaps we ought to be consistent.

And I'm still not sure why exactly a belt should count as item but not underwear (must this item of clothing be seen?) or say suspenders (must this item of clothing be considered fashionable to be eligible as a set bonus?)

Why aren't quiver/arrows considered items? I mean, the Bow and Arrow are two items (see that, bow and arrow), but somehow it counts as one item set. What's that, it's part of a single weapon system? OK, fine, then why is a sword and shield count separately as it's also part of a single weapon system?

Trying to recognize logic or rationale in ZoS's system is futile because it's anything but. If people like the system, that's fine, but can they please come up with better rationale to defend it because what it usually boils down to is an arbitrary defense of the status quo simply because that's how it has been

Come on mate, you’re a talented player you should know that counting 2H wpns as two slots would make them OP and then dw wpns would need a buff and so on. 2H wpns do just fine as they are in both pve and pve. In fact the only wpn set that isn’t doing fine is dw in pvp where it’s only good under very specific circumstances unlike other weapons.

craftycarper73

CavalryPK wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

PFft.. if 2 hand weapon is a single weapon then why do you need to hands to wield it. bwahahahaha

you actually use 1 hand to wield and fire a stave, check it out and be thankful you learned something.

KRBMMO

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

How's the investigation going, ZOS? I would love to be able to use a bow and be able to play with this fun 5-5-2 build:

Maw of the Infernal (2)
Defiler (5)
Morkuldin (5)

Because Maw and Morkuldin require light/heavy attacks to proc, it means I have to get up close into melee range and whack away with melee weapons to activate Morkuldin (because I can only slot 4 pieces on my bow bar).

"We're looking at ..." seems to be the go-to phrase for Q3 2017.
"We're looking into the issue with bots"
"We're looking into concerns about the API"
"We're looking into balance issues with PvP"
"We're looking into why walls and floors don't work anymore"

Basically they're just saying "I'll call you." or "Hey, lets have lunch sometime." I don't think they actually mean it.

Strider__Roshin

craftycarper73 wrote: »

CavalryPK wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

PFft.. if 2 hand weapon is a single weapon then why do you need to hands to wield it. bwahahahaha

you actually use 1 hand to wield and fire a stave, check it out and be thankful you learned something.

That's a great point. Only 2H weapons and the bow should count as a 2 piece then. We'll keep the staff as a 1 piece

craftycarper73

Daus wrote: »

craftycarper73 wrote: »

CavalryPK wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

PFft.. if 2 hand weapon is a single weapon then why do you need to hands to wield it. bwahahahaha

you actually use 1 hand to wield and fire a stave, check it out and be thankful you learned something.

That's a great point. Only 2H weapons and the bow should count as a 2 piece then. We'll keep the staff as a 1 piece

so what can be used in the other hand you arent using? lets have a look

in films such as LOTR gandolf wields a sword and stave
in games such as real elder scrolls games (skyrim) you can wield a destruction stave and a healing stave or 2 destruction staves etc

Ranger209

Daus wrote: »

craftycarper73 wrote: »

CavalryPK wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

PFft.. if 2 hand weapon is a single weapon then why do you need to hands to wield it. bwahahahaha

you actually use 1 hand to wield and fire a stave, check it out and be thankful you learned something.

That's a great point. Only 2H weapons and the bow should count as a 2 piece then. We'll keep the staff as a 1 piece

My Nord could wield (2x) 2 handers, game just won't let him. Puny milk drinkers...

danno8

Once again I will bring up the example of Guild Wars 2. 2-handed items at release only counted as one piece for sets, then a year later they switched it to 2 pieces.

The forums there were filled with the same arguments of "the game will break", "those weapons will become OP", "it will kill diversity", on and on.

None of it happened. It actually helped diversity since you had more possible combinations of gear, and the game balance didn't get destroyed.

If it means they have to nerf the 8% bonus damage on destro staves, and the final passive in 2H that mirrors the DW one to bring those down a touch, then that's fine with me.