Twins are overkill (vet maw)

Trashkan

Asardes wrote: »

Trashkan wrote: »

Here we go again. And what % of the player base can do that? Maybe 1%?

Everyone can do it. If they practice. If they don't they will not be able to. It's not hard to setup a practice dummy and fine tune your rotation. The gear in the video is not very hard to obtain: you can just farm vAA (20-25 minutes runs) for gold jewels - after 10 runs people will end up vendoring gold VO and IA jewels to NPCs - or nAA for body pieces from those sets. Also pretty much everyone and their grandma can craft Julianos, Hunding, NMG. As for monster sets, veteran dungeons are easy, and there's even more reason to farm them post patch to re-trait your weapons. Stop complaining and start improving, there's literally 0 excuse. I practiced the rotation on my Stamina DK last night and I was able to climb from barely 30K to almost 34K. That's an hour of practice. It's not hard.

Use this trait and this set and use this ability. Narrow your build, narrow your build. Lmao ya we run most the go to sets alkosh,p.a,ebon,moondancer,twilight,spc,nmg, sunderflame,hundings,2fs, ect...what are you not seeing here. But even with these sets 99% of the player base will not hit 30k single on any fight. This is why your specific guilds do so well and why there are so few trial guilds that can complete these dungeons. And why these fihhts seem so easy to you and why its called a biais opinion.

Asardes

Trashkan wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Trashkan wrote: »

Here we go again. And what % of the player base can do that? Maybe 1%?

Everyone can do it. If they practice. If they don't they will not be able to. It's not hard to setup a practice dummy and fine tune your rotation. The gear in the video is not very hard to obtain: you can just farm vAA (20-25 minutes runs) for gold jewels - after 10 runs people will end up vendoring gold VO and IA jewels to NPCs - or nAA for body pieces from those sets. Also pretty much everyone and their grandma can craft Julianos, Hunding, NMG. As for monster sets, veteran dungeons are easy, and there's even more reason to farm them post patch to re-trait your weapons. Stop complaining and start improving, there's literally 0 excuse. I practiced the rotation on my Stamina DK last night and I was able to climb from barely 30K to almost 34K. That's an hour of practice. It's not hard.

Use this trait and this set and use this ability. Narrow your build, narrow your build. Lmao ya we run most the go to sets alkosh,p.a,ebon,moondancer,twilight,spc,nmg, sunderflame,hundings,2fs, ect...what are you not seeing here. But even with these sets 99% of the player base will not hit 30k single on any fight. This is why your specific guilds do so well and why there are so few trial guilds that can complete these dungeons. And why these fihhts seem so easy to you and why its called a biais opinion.

Yep, let's lower the difficulty so people can complete all vet trials HM no-death speed run naked, spamming bow light attacks and with attribute points spread equally between health, magicka and stamina. Too much elitism here.

Trashkan

Asardes wrote: »

Trashkan wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Trashkan wrote: »

Here we go again. And what % of the player base can do that? Maybe 1%?

Everyone can do it. If they practice. If they don't they will not be able to. It's not hard to setup a practice dummy and fine tune your rotation. The gear in the video is not very hard to obtain: you can just farm vAA (20-25 minutes runs) for gold jewels - after 10 runs people will end up vendoring gold VO and IA jewels to NPCs - or nAA for body pieces from those sets. Also pretty much everyone and their grandma can craft Julianos, Hunding, NMG. As for monster sets, veteran dungeons are easy, and there's even more reason to farm them post patch to re-trait your weapons. Stop complaining and start improving, there's literally 0 excuse. I practiced the rotation on my Stamina DK last night and I was able to climb from barely 30K to almost 34K. That's an hour of practice. It's not hard.

Use this trait and this set and use this ability. Narrow your build, narrow your build. Lmao ya we run most the go to sets alkosh,p.a,ebon,moondancer,twilight,spc,nmg, sunderflame,hundings,2fs, ect...what are you not seeing here. But even with these sets 99% of the player base will not hit 30k single on any fight. This is why your specific guilds do so well and why there are so few trial guilds that can complete these dungeons. And why these fihhts seem so easy to you and why its called a biais opinion.

Yep, let's lower the difficulty so people can complete all vet trials HM no-death speed run naked, spamming bow light attacks and with attribute points spread equally between health, magicka and stamina. Too much elitism here.

???? Go do it on normal and I'll believe you. You went from one end of the spectrum to the next. good luck beating maw naked. How would making 3 ads max change whether your group can do it naked or not. Shoot you guys only see 2 ads so go do it then and prove it.

Trashkan

And I never said lower Hm. Make them harder I like the aspect of that. Why do you care about 3 ads max when everyone arguing never sees more than 2.

FakeFox

Trashkan wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

Trashkan wrote: »

3 ads we never even see 3 it goes straight to 4 from 2 so your telling me we have to do 56mill boss dps in 4 rotations which is roughly 30k single target per toon not including ads?

Yes. That's exactly what I said. However you can squeeze one more rotation out of that, as you don't have to kill the adds in the last round.

This is where I call bs. Finding 8 dps that can do this is very very hard it's harder than the fight. The dance is easy this is harder than the load screen boss. So you guys saying this is easy is a very biais opinion and I know you guys can't see it that's why it's called a biais opinion.


But I can see it on both sides. I have a tank with every set golded out glyphed out maxed out. I have tanked every stinking fight in the game but vhof boss 3 and 4 and maw final. I can tell you every mechanic of every boss and can give you exact count down when they will happen. I have a dps who can out damage every player that runs with us including pick up players that have all beaten maw. We can do Vdsa in under an hour getting close to 45 min. So I can see both sides of the argument.


It's just unrealistic for this game to succeed with such high expectations from average players.

You will not just find those 8 DDs in zone chat, I can see that. But you can build a group with DDs that have the potential and train them. The requirement for enough DPS is very basic, however it's not self expainatory, so people need someone to teach them in order to become good.

Marabornwingrion

So the main problem in this thread, is that OP's group dps is low.

You have two options: recruit better DDs for your guild, or teach current ones how to deal damage. It's not that hard.

I have nearly 4000 hours time played on my main magicka nightblade DD and I consider myself as a good DD for base game vet trials as well as for vMoL and vHoF. Why? Because I've spent most of that time on learning my class and game mechanics. And I'm still learning. Pulling high dps is not only wearing meta gear and following the same rotation over and over on every boss fight. There's much more in there that your DDs need to know.

DLC vet trials are not designed for casual players. You can't just jump inside there, press random buttons on your keyboards while fighting with bosses and expect a victory.

And sorry to say that but "even with these sets 99% of the player base will not hit 30k single on any fight" is complete bullsh*t.
There are many great players in this game who can help to less experienced players reach better numbers. Maybe you have wrong people around you.

Trashkan

Dps is that easy come bring me through any dungeon. Played a stam dk for maybe 30 hours and can crush any boss doing 95% of the group dps sometimes. I dint start using a dps until a year ago and that was mdk and i never dps any trials but a.a and Hel ra I always tank. Now i can out damage good players that have done it for years? Give me a break I gave in and used hundings 2fs and it was game over. I can miss so much on rotations and be so sloppy and achieve greatness. It's pathetic.

Trashkan

And you all know this is true.

Asardes

As I said before, simply find a better group. If the guild is weak and the people there don't want to learn there's no reason to stay with such losers. Leave that guild and find a better one. Or simply tell them to improve. Kick those who screw mechanics repeatedly from group and let others who are more willing to learn join. I've seen many people who are dumb and arrogant and won't learn anything even if you explained them 100 times. Playing with such people is a waste of time. The people are the problem, not the content. And when I say people, I say people's attitude 99% of the time. Few have real impairments that prevent them from playing right, but they suffer from chronic entitlement.

iam117

you dont have to run any of the builds that you see out there to clear any of the content in game. those are simply the maximized options, for maximized groups. There are plenty of people, myself included, that clear all content with "less than ideal" gear. Why? Practice. if people dont have the desire to stick with it and get it down, it wont ever happen. with practice its pretty simple to get 30k+ with gear sets/builds that are non/semi-non meta.

SoLooney

Having good dps means fights are shorter and therefore less mechanics to put up with or even avoiding them all together.

People need to stop being so stubborn about builds and dps. if youre not parsing well, at least 30k dps, you are not an asset to your group. Yes, groups with lower dps can beat vet trials, but how long and how many wipes will it take? Just my 2 cents, ppl are so against meta builds cause they wanna be different and believe they are amazing until they get exposed on a target dummy or in a raid setting

500 hours and not even beating twins is the issue of the whole group. It really isnt that difficult to learn twin mechanics after several wipes, the decent ppl will at least understand mechanics while the less gifted forget to convert or rotate during prayer phase after many attempts. Also, twins is kind of a dps check unless your chainers are amazing and adds die before bosses teleport, but in your case, that isnt happening.

The longer the fight goes, the more chances mistakes happen, and yes, will probably lead to a domino effect. Dead dps is negative dps, another dps has to stop attacking to rez

Drummerx04

Asardes wrote: »

Someone was mentioning the fact Templar is "dead" this patch. It's far from it, you just have to think a bit outside the box:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM0KS6p4N24

So is this not news to anyone? Magplar 37k ranged DD self buffed? Okay, I guess I'll go farm skulls or something.

Qbiken

Asardes wrote: »

Someone was mentioning the fact Templar is "dead" this patch. It's far from it, you just have to think a bit outside the box:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM0KS6p4N24

When HA does more damage than your supposed main spamable ability something is very wrong with the game....nothing wrong with thinking outside the box, I´m all for that but this video just shows how **** up it actually is

WrathOfInnos

Strange thread, I didn't realize my viewpoint was so unique. Every time my group clears vMoL we see a 2-3 waves of 4 adds on twins. We just have a DK chain them in and we AoE them down before continuing on the bosses. I don't think it's an issue of burning past the 4 adds stage or failing every time. It's more about target coordination and controlling boss health. It's best if the adds die before conversions, which really comes down to how quickly the get chained in.

We also have to do more than 1 lunar cycle on Rakkhat pretty often. The beam phase is actually fun. It's not always about burning past mechanics like all the top leaderboard groups do, there are other ways (probably the intended ways) to complete content.

s7732425ub17_ESO

As a raid lead for all Vet Trials, I do agree that the Twins fight really needs to be reworked. My group can be 100% solid on all the mechanics and perform flawlessly. But, after 2 months of trying, we still can't beat the Twins due to the absurdly unnecessary DPS punishing mechanics. And the fight relies waaaayyy too heavily on chains- no other fight in the game requires this.

We'll see how the new Trial works out. If ZOS continues to make poor design decisions like this, pretty much everyone in my Trials guild is going to leave the game. Many have already left

s7732425ub17_ESO

code65536 wrote: »

Trashkan wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Trashkan wrote: »

Really I don't have the time to run in more than one trial guild we run twice a week 3 hours a run. Plus the guild that I run with is loyal and have been with for three years running trials. We used to be the guild that was top 10 leaderboards all the time when trials were a thing. But sadly many members have come and gone.

That's another thing why should i have to join another guild? The members who have stuck around for the longhaul should have completed this by now they have put the time the effort in to it. This game makes people elitist and destroy your moral compass with the way you have to tell people no sorry you only pull 23k dps you are no good to us anymore step your game up and come back. Or no sorry you don't have a sorc or a mdk goodbye. The members that stay loyal will always have a spot in my raids.

You don't have to go kick anyone. If someone is pulling bad DPS, find out why. Sit them in front of a target dummy, and see what they're doing wrong. Bad choice of rotation? Missed weaves? Bad execution of rotation? Etc. If they are "loyal", then they'd want to put in the effort to help the team, and low DPS is a problem that can be fixed with effort and troubleshooting.

But for the twins fight in particular, yes, it is a very poorly-designed fight. I first started working on the twins last spring, right after Maw was released. We got past the first boss very quickly (we had killed it on the PTS), and then we were stuck on twins for the entire patch. And it wasn't just us. There was only one guild on PC/NA (the top competitive guild on the server) that managed to kill twins during the Thieves Guild patch, and I know at least a couple of guilds that fell apart because of the twins frustration. We tried all sorts of ***, like loading the group with 4 or 5 mDKs, but in the end, once the 4 add phase started, everything fell apart.

We became the third guild on PC/NA to clear vMoL. That happened at the end of June or start of July. And vMoL was released in March. So it took us months (and despite taking months, we were still the third on the server to do it), and the vast majority of that time was spent on twins--once we got to Rakkhat, it only took us a couple of weeks to get him down.

What eventually fixed it for us was higher DPS, partially enabled by the balance changes and power creep that the next patch enabled (as a point of reference, when Hodor got the world first vMoL speedrun, the best multi-target--not even single-target--DPS that they had on Rakkhat was about 32K, and now you'd see 60K). These days, the twins fight is "easy", in part because we refined our strats (doing a center burn on both bosses, not pulling the bosses too far apart, etc.) but in large part because DPS is miles ahead of where it used to be. But take away that power creep, and twins will quickly devolve back to the wipefest nightmare that it was. Not many people remember what vMoL was like when it was released, before the power creep. So twins is just fine, it's an easy fight, and you just have to git gud, etc. But really, it isn't--it's just that the flaws of the fight have been papered over by higher DPS and our complaints last year about the fight being cancerous are but a distant memory.

My point exactly. You were one of the first to clear now it is super easy for you to clear. So the 95% player base in this game that really struggle with dps suffers. We had this fight cleared and were progressing great. Both bosses under 5% then T1 hit with its sustain nerf. It was almost like we had to learn it all over again. If Zos decides too go this direction not very many players will stick around. Even the good players leave because you raised the ceiling so high that finding just the right group is next to impossible sometimes. Leaving you with little to no player base left to run these trials. Trust me we are already there i used to grab pug groups and smash on hard modes. Why? Because we had more dedidcated players addicted to running trials and players that worked builds. Now it's just dead.

But you don't need to be elite in order to do DPS that's higher than what we were doing back in Spring 2016. When vMoL launched, the level of DPS needed to clear twins reliably was out of reach for most groups, but that is not the case any more.

When we were doing twins originally, total group DPS on that fight was well under 240K on the twins (Combat Metrics didn't exist back then, so I'm just estimating here). By the end of Homestead, we were looking at around 320K (though this is with an entirely different group of players since over a year had passed), and during Morrowind's launch week (so before we had a chance to adapt to Morrowind), it was 280K. Yes, Morrowind was a nerf initially and it's taken the community months and a shift to stam to get DPS back to pre-Morrowind levels, but even week-1 Morrowind DPS was stronger than Thieves Guild DPS.

Sit people down in front of dummies and troubleshoot DPS with them. Again, you don't need to be elite to do more than what groups were pulling in early 2016.

(I do agree that Morrowind was a piece of *** in the balance department, but that's another matter.)

Trashkan wrote: »

Beat all craglorn hm trials 2 years ago.

Back when the entire AA HM trial was a 7 minute fight that everyone could waltz through with PUGs? When the first boss would die before you could even do a full rotation? Yea, that doesn't count. The rescaled vAA HM (not non-HM) is actually quite tough and is as much of a DPS check (if not more) than twins.

I've run with lots and lots and lots of different Trial groups. I've noticed that only the top 1% of groups out there are getting more than 240k group dps (with 8 DPS). Realistically, most endgame guilds are NOT averaging 30k DPS per person. It's a bit lower than that. It's still enough to do all content in the game, but it's a much larger struggle than the top guilds that can faceroll everything.

Cage_Lizardman

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

I've run with lots and lots and lots of different Trial groups. I've noticed that only the top 1% of groups out there are getting more than 240k group dps (with 8 DPS). Realistically, most endgame guilds are NOT averaging 30k DPS per person. It's a bit lower than that. It's still enough to do all content in the game, but it's a much larger struggle than the top guilds that can faceroll everything.

It's extremely rare that I see anyone who can beat my 25k dps anywhere, this includes relatively casual groups that run vet trials. To those of you who say this is easy, you are quite simply wrong. If >95% can't do something, it is not easy. I have tried and failed on three different characters to get 30k dps.

Kikke

And people are asking why the veteran trial players are quiting? Becaus scrubs dont want to l2p, and rather asks for nerfs.

Asardes

Cage_Lizardman wrote: »

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

I've run with lots and lots and lots of different Trial groups. I've noticed that only the top 1% of groups out there are getting more than 240k group dps (with 8 DPS). Realistically, most endgame guilds are NOT averaging 30k DPS per person. It's a bit lower than that. It's still enough to do all content in the game, but it's a much larger struggle than the top guilds that can faceroll everything.

It's extremely rare that I see anyone who can beat my 25k dps anywhere, this includes relatively casual groups that run vet trials. To those of you who say this is easy, you are quite simply wrong. If >95% can't do something, it is not easy. I have tried and failed on three different characters to get 30k dps.

I can do 34-35K DPS on my stamina DK on the 6M training dummy despite not having the ideal race (Nord instead of Redguard or Khajiit), and not having ideal traits yet on my Sunderflame weapons (sharp dagger instead of infused - I will retrait it this patch). I even ran some "dry" parses with no food or weapon power potions just to practice the rotation (I still have problem with back bar LA weaving) and even those came at about 27-28.5K DPS. We did vAA HM in the week end and the group DPS was good, about 300K in total, and I did ~42K DPS with all the raid buffs on the Mage and the Atronachs, or around 14% of total; we did wipe quite a lot until we got it done, but was exclusively group coordination and not DPS who hindered us, since some people, including myself hadn't completed it before. I am not even a very experienced DD having played as tank for the most part of the last two years so probably an experienced player will pull at least 10K more with the same gear - I have a friend who parses 50K or more on an Orc StamDK. As for other classes, my Stamina NB is about the same as the DK in single target DPS (the fracture up time is higher from surprise attack than noxious breath, and you have that applied by tank in trials so it will probably a bit lower in an actual trial), and the Magicka Sorcerer sits comfortably at 27-28K DPS on the dummy while running power surge with elemental drain instead of hardened ward, and staying at full magicka throughout without potions; I haven't tested the Templar but I could probably pull close to that too since it's mostly reapplying DoTs and pulling 1-2 heavies in both cases. So claiming it's rare to break 25K is simply not true. You wouldn't get accepted in a more serious guild if you were unable to parse 30K or more self buffed on the dummy, and considerably more with trial buffs. Entirely L2P issues conflated into hasty generalizations.

Cage_Lizardman

Asardes wrote: »

Entirely L2P issues conflated into hasty generalizations.

It's my observation after months of experience playing this game with 25k dps. There's nothing hasty about it. Fine if you want to call it "l2p issues", that's not the same thing as easy.

Mop_Almighty

Trashkan wrote: »

Trials used to be fun now it's like synchronized swimming with a dps test. No matter how good you are as a gamer you will only be as good as your weakest link and if someone screws up or is out of position the dominos come falling down.

Dps checks are stupid when only 3 builds can complete your test. Fix it and 99% of eso will no longer be scared to run trials again. Leave the leaderboards for the elite trial guilds.

After spending 500 hours in maw without beating the twins is when I say enough. Our group has the dance down so well but without high dps it actually gets harder because ads start to pile up.


Here's my argument the Twins fight is very mechanic heavy and to even get these mechanics down it takes time i mean alot of time with a completely new group. Most groups who can perform the dps test don't have to deal with 4 ads or at least don't have to kill them. They can just chain away from group while you burn the last 5%. So these groups who are really good actually have it easier because more dps equals less ad waves and less ads in general. So you get a group with a little less dps. They suffer because damage is lower, ads are harder to kill and you cram more down there throat.

It kinda reminds me of the credit industry. You know the more you have the lower your interest rate is and the easier payments are. Typically people with more dps get lower interest rates. Lmao

"You're only as strong as your weakest link" that's why you either repair the link and improve it or you replace it

Trashkan

See obviously we completely suck and are losers. No time spent on pts we beat Vet A.S 1st try no wipes on left boss or final boss! Final boss took 45 min though lmao.

Trashkan

Now we are gonna bring a very nice person who does 4k dps:-)

Juhasow

Trashkan wrote: »

See obviously we completely suck and are losers. No time spent on pts we beat Vet A.S 1st try no wipes on left boss or final boss! Final boss took 45 min though lmao.

Vet AS with killing each boss one by one is easy mode designed for weaker groups. It is mini trial so rules and desing there are different then on regular trials.

Trashkan

Cool still no wipes. And did you beat hard mode yet or are one of them weaker groups?

kylewwefan

You can’t change the name of the thread now. That’s just wrong. I’d have never wrote anything on a twins thread. Shame on you.

Trashkan

Why it was the basis of the whole thread go read the o.p lol shame on you for being so toxic.

Drummerx04

Trashkan wrote: »

Cool still no wipes. And did you beat hard mode yet or are one of them weaker groups?

That's not how it works.

If group A struggles to beat HRC and group B can easily beat HRC, then group B is clearly a stronger group.

Both groups can then also struggle to beat vAS HM, but group B is still stronger.

Trashkan

Ok we smash Hrc so what's your point?

Drummerx04

Trashkan wrote: »

Ok we smash Hrc so what's your point?

Do you also smash the twins?