Why is it okay 3years later that dk are the only tanks still?

paulsimonps

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

So here's the thing. It seems that everyone agrees that DKs and wardens offer the most group support. Running a different tank puts more pressure on your team mates. Why would someone choose to be selfish? Vet trials are a team sport. Why would I put more stress on my team mates because I want to be a special snowflake?

Furthermore, I ask for visual proof because I remain unconvinced that nonDK, nonWarden tanks have the resource management tools to survive the mechanics I outlined in a previous post.

Full gold sturdy, 3 block cost glyphs, 100p in Shadow Ward, absorb magicka and 5p of Alteration Mastery with 5p of Black Rose and ANYONE can hold block forever and still have enough to taunt and use magika abilites. Is it meta? No. Is it group friendly? No. Does it make it so you can complete content? Yes. Is it easy for the group? No. BUT its doable.

NB, and Sorcs don't even need that much either. Learn when you need to block and you can use Dark Deal and Leeching Strikes. Templars are really the only ones that doesn't really have anything, they can get the reverse shard now but it has a 20s CD.

Jaimeh

I've recently leveled a tank that's a DK because I wanted to play it safe while learning the role, but actually, some of the best tanks I've met in game were nightblades and templars. The utilities and support that DKs bring into a group are a very welcome bonus, but even in cases where these skills are considered a necessity, I think a group can still work around them.

Gilvoth

eso made dragonights to be tank. that's what it is suppose to be.
if other classes attempt to tank they are not suppose to match what a dragonight can do in tankness, that is what suppose to be.

Liofa

SirCritical wrote: »

I myself fully believe @Liofa 's comment about tanking vMoL with a warden, without video proofs. I'd like to see this run btw, just because of curiosity

Haha ^^ Warden is sooooo good for sustain . I am just waiting for next patch to make a build video and post some gameplay I don't want to waste anyone's time in case they change something at the last minute , ZOS might do ZOS things ^^

As for the general topic of thread , it only requires knowledge of base game mechanics and dungeon/trial mechanics to build any class for end-game tanking . As many others stated , just as Templars and Wardens being best healers , Nightblades being best gankers , Sorcerer's having the highest AOE damage capabilities etc. Dragonknights and Wardens are better tanks . Just because you want to see unusual classes , people won't level a character and bring it to high-end raids . Any proper tank player that knows what they are doing can prepare any class for any high-end content and complete without problems . But as I said , no one does that because they are less effective .

code65536

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

So here's the thing. It seems that everyone agrees that DKs and wardens offer the most group support. Running a different tank puts more pressure on your team mates. Why would someone choose to be selfish? Vet trials are a team sport. Why would I put more stress on my team mates because I want to be a special snowflake?

Because not every run is a go-for-a-new-best-score kind of run. There are runs it's just for fun. Or runs where people come on characters that they normally would not raid with and get completion achievements on.

A month or two ago, a number of people I know did an all-sorc run. Sorc tanks, sorc healers, and sorc DPS. Because why not?

Wing

because if DK's were not good at tanking they would be good at nothing and nobody would play them.

also in high end trial groups and guilds it does not matter if its the best by inches or miles, people play the best.

if DK was only 1% more optimal then warden people would play DK

if warden was 1% more optimal then DK they would all switch to warden.

DK is not godly amounts better then Warden, merely 1% better, and that's all it takes.


shall we not mention that all dps are Sorc, all healers are Templars, and NB are never in trials?

sure there are exceptions and outliers, but that's precisely it, they are exceptions and outliers.


also in before "well we run trials with a sorc tank, nb healers, and warden dps" resume's start showing up in response to this post.

DocFrost72

Wing wrote: »

shall we not mention that all dps are Sorc, all healers are Templars, and NB are never in trials?

sure there are exceptions and outliers, but that's precisely it, they are exceptions and outliers.

Sorcs used to be really good dps, not so much anymore. Mag NBS are actually pretty competitive with sorc dps, and stam as a whole is pulling more single target damage than any magic spec, hence why no one wants mag templar dps or magDK dps at the moment. Wby bring them when a stam dk or stam warden pulls 5-10k more (at peak performance) than the mag counterparts?

Rest of your post is pretty solid though.

JDC1985

Its not the class any class can tank its about the player behind the class they either are good or just horrible.

Runefang

Part of the issue is how complimentary builds generally are in trials. All major buffs/de-buffs can only be provided once so you want them provided in the optimal way, by the optimal class.

It's not like one class can provide a 5% damage buff that stacks with another classes 5% damage buff, they're mutually exclusive. Now if a NB could give buff A while a Templar could give buff B you'd want them both to be healers in a trial.

The end result is classes that can buff/de-buff (aka boost group damage) the best will fill the support roles because you can't hurt the DPS team member's rotations by having them issue buffs (unless they happen naturally in their rotation).

Destruent

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

So here's the thing. It seems that everyone agrees that DKs and wardens offer the most group support. Running a different tank puts more pressure on your team mates. Why would someone choose to be selfish? Vet trials are a team sport. Why would I put more stress on my team mates because I want to be a special snowflake?

Furthermore, I ask for visual proof because I remain unconvinced that nonDK, nonWarden tanks have the resource management tools to survive the mechanics I outlined in a previous post.

Ressourcemanagement comes mainly from blockcost-reduction + balance + heavy-attacks...i don't see any DK-specific things there...

AverageJo3Gam3r

@Destruent there are many vet trails encounters that require permablocking. Meaning no heavy attacks. Please tank one of these on a non DK, non warden tank, post a vid of it and prove me wrong.

Destruent

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

@Destruent there are many vet trails encounters that require permablocking. Meaning no heavy attacks. Please tank one of these on a non DK, non warden tank, post a vid of it and prove me wrong.

where do you need to permablock?
vHoF? no....i heavy-attacked regularily to regain stam on my templar
vAA: First to 3rd boss are a joke, no permablock needed. Use SnB ult for axes on last boss or just drop block and heavy attack from time to time when tanking attros
vHRC: no permablock needed at any of those bosses, just learn their attack patterns
vSO: same as in vHRC
vMoL: first boss has a heavy-attack and last boss has some hard hitting mechanics, you can heavy-attack inbetween (2nd can be tanke in 5 medium, so no need to talk about that)

sry to disappoint you...don't have videos, bc i never thought it's any important to show non-DK-tanks in trials....
But in this thread are lots of well known and experienced guys who tell you it's possible...maybe you belive them if you don't have the experience/group/whatever to do it yourself?

summary: learn the attack-patterns/mechanics and you don't need to permablock in vettrials (axes are a different story, but even there you could drop block from time to time)

Liofa

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

@Destruent there are many vet trails encounters that require permablocking. Meaning no heavy attacks. Please tank one of these on a non DK, non warden tank, post a vid of it and prove me wrong.

Only fight that requires you to permablock (mostly) is vAA axes . Permablocking is a choice for any other fight . Just because people are doing it , doesn't mean it is a requirement .

DocFrost72

Liofa wrote: »

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

@Destruent there are many vet trails encounters that require permablocking. Meaning no heavy attacks. Please tank one of these on a non DK, non warden tank, post a vid of it and prove me wrong.

Only fight that requires you to permablock (mostly) is vAA axes . Permablocking is a choice for any other fight . Just because people are doing it , doesn't mean it is a requirement .

^

The only fight in the game where dropping block usually means death is also a fight where you are seperate from your allies. Your crusher enchant means nothing, so you can carry a spare weapon with a return stam glyph. Since I used infused torug's, I've been thinking of doing that (or wearing histbark here). Your warhorn won't hit at least half your allies, so you can safely and comfortably use the sword and shield ult to heavy attack 3-4 times. That's 6k-8k stam at least.

For emphasis: when my stam sorc tank did AA, I didn't have to use my ult, and was able to warhorn when we all rolled in instead. Hardly needed, but it was nice.

kylewwefan

None of it has been worth recording....I once heard a guy tell me that VAA can be done with no tank. All the DPS just grab an axe. Haven’t seen videos of that either as I’m sure it’s a complete crapshow to watch.

I also just remembered another tool the DK makes excellent use of no other class has access to. DEEP BREATH. You know, for the top boss on HelRa. You can do without it, but it does make things much easier with an AOE interrupt.

paulsimonps

kylewwefan wrote: »

None of it has been worth recording....I once heard a guy tell me that VAA can be done with no tank. All the DPS just grab an axe. Haven’t seen videos of that either as I’m sure it’s a complete crapshow to watch.

I also just remembered another tool the DK makes excellent use of no other class has access to. DEEP BREATH. You know, for the top boss on HelRa. You can do without it, but it does make things much easier with an AOE interrupt.

Most groups don't even use a Tank in vHRC top boss. Unless you are doing HM on Warrior you don't need 2 Tanks. And btw, Deep Breath have already been mentioned in the thread. Not by name perhaps but I did say the DKs had an AoE interrupt.

Also no, most people don't think, "hmmm maybe I should record this so we can prove it to someone that doesn't believe in non DK Tanks, or non Warden Tanks". And not everyone have a good enough PC to record stuff on, recording does put a strain on the PC. Its really easy to do the math to show you can make a build with enough sustain to tank anything. And like its been said earlier by @Destruent you can drop block on basically everything as long as you are experienced and learn their fighting styles.

Alcast

Did you try tankin on other classes or are you just assuming other classes can not tank because you do neva see any?

Asardes

I'm just leveling my Imperial stamina Warden in nMA these days. I will make a tank of her at some point since my DK has had enough of that and just decided to go DD for a while

AverageJo3Gam3r

Alcast wrote: »

Did you try tankin on other classes or are you just assuming other classes can not tank because you do neva see any?

@Alcast Why would I? I don't have the luxury of being in a vet trials group where everyone pulls 40k+ dps. I don't have the luxury of having the best tanks and healers in the game. Most folks don't. When my *casual* trials group makes the all time vSO leaderboards, it's clear that most people are not able to clear vet trials. As a tank, why would I choose a spec with sub-par group support just because I can or because I want to be different? When we're struggling to clear content, why make a selfish choice?

Maybe one day I'll have the luxury of running in a group that is talented enough that we can do a naked all-sorc storm atro mop and bucket vmol run. But until then, I'll continue to run the spec that provides the most group support.

DocFrost72

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Did you try tankin on other classes or are you just assuming other classes can not tank because you do neva see any?

@Alcast Why would I? I don't have the luxury of being in a vet trials group where everyone pulls 40k+ dps. I don't have the luxury of having the best tanks and healers in the game. Most folks don't. When my *casual* trials group makes the all time vSO leaderboards, it's clear that most people are not able to clear vet trials. As a tank, why would I choose a spec with sub-par group support just because I can or because I want to be different? When we're struggling to clear content, why make a selfish choice?

Maybe one day I'll have the luxury of running in a group that is talented enough that we can do a naked all-sorc storm atro mop and bucket vmol run. But until then, I'll continue to run the spec that provides the most group support.

You're mistaken on how much dps is needed for vet trials, and the level of difference in non DK tanks and DK tanks. Those things exist, and of course help, but only if you're going for score...

phillyproduct

Alcast wrote: »

Did you try tankin on other classes or are you just assuming other classes can not tank because you do neva see any?

So if all content in game can be beaten why do we need balance checks? Why do powers get nerf and buff'd if its possible to do it?

3patches ago stam dps was terrible in raids but we could beat a raid with 4stam dps right. So why balance stam why buff it?



But to answer your question I have tanked all classes besides warden i tank on my nb the most, i dont regularly tank i heal and dps ive seen your video's you have one of the top groups in eso im sure with your group dps any tank can do anything just like any healer can heal when people aren't standing in aoe's

Also in your own group you dont have a nb and sorc tank yall also have a dk tank why is that?

idk

More than DKs tank end game trials. Every class cleared vMoL as a tank during its first year with most of them clearing HM. Not certain about vHoF and ofc, benefits of the NB tank are no longer there.

phillyproduct

paulsimonps wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

None of it has been worth recording....I once heard a guy tell me that VAA can be done with no tank. All the DPS just grab an axe. Haven’t seen videos of that either as I’m sure it’s a complete crapshow to watch.

I also just remembered another tool the DK makes excellent use of no other class has access to. DEEP BREATH. You know, for the top boss on HelRa. You can do without it, but it does make things much easier with an AOE interrupt.

Most groups don't even use a Tank in vHRC top boss. Unless you are doing HM on Warrior you don't need 2 Tanks. And btw, Deep Breath have already been mentioned in the thread. Not by name perhaps but I did say the DKs had an AoE interrupt.

Also no, most people don't think, "hmmm maybe I should record this so we can prove it to someone that doesn't believe in non DK Tanks, or non Warden Tanks". And not everyone have a good enough PC to record stuff on, recording does put a strain on the PC. Its really easy to do the math to show you can make a build with enough sustain to tank anything. And like its been said earlier by @Destruent you can drop block on basically everything as long as you are experienced and learn their fighting styles.

I specified vhof or vmol all the old trials are easy im pretty sure your right its physically possible to tank any trial with a nb tank and any trial with a sorc, but if 95percent of trials groups use dk's is the game really balanced?

phillyproduct

idk wrote: »

More than DKs tank end game trials. Every class cleared vMoL as a tank during its first year with most of them clearing HM. Not certain about vHoF and ofc, benefits of the NB tank are no longer there.

You are right ive never seen it though,

EVERY one is getting caught up on trying to prove me wrong and say look look their 2 wardens over their, and a couple temps over their and hey look theirs 1sorc over their, they all beat vhof.

But ignoring the 100dk's that beat it then passing it off as balance.

Tanking isnt balance'd period. Dps is closer to balance than Tanking.

And no one still cant find a twitch feed YouTube video or anything with a nb or sorc Tanking vhof but theirs so many people trying to discredit me

Asardes

Balanced game doesn't mean that all classes can do every role with similar results. That would be a game that really has no use for classes. Classes need only be balanced against each other PvP wise, in PvE it's irrelevant if a DK will pull 10% less DPS than a sorcerer, and the DK will be able to tank 6 axes in vAA, while the sorcerer can only handle 4.

phillyproduct

Asardes wrote: »

Balanced game doesn't mean that all classes can do every role with similar results. That would be a game that really has no use for classes. Classes need only be balanced against each other PvP wise, in PvE it's irrelevant if a DK will pull 10% less DPS than a sorcerer, and the DK will be able to tank 6 axes in vAA, while the sorcerer can only handle 4.

Not trying to go down this rabbit hole so plz excuse the analogy

Ff14 has 3tank class all feel different and tank different ways but are all equally wanted and saught after no one frowns when they get a pally or panics when a warrior joins

Today if you logged on and 3buddies ask you to pug a trial with them and your tanks were a nb and sorc and your healers were a warden and dk and your 4buddies are all dps whats your 1st reaction?

Ff14 has no reaction on any class dps healing or tanking thats how well balanced it is, and it still isnt perfect either.

iam117

these are all older vids, but here is a templar tanking first boss in vmol, this video was first attemp with stam templar tank as well. and videos of sorc tank tanking the twins, and off tanking rakkhat. I have cleared vmol on every class as a tank, i have not done vhof as a tank on anything but dk so far, but having tanked it, there is no reason in my mind why i cant complete it on other classes as well,. and i intend to at some point.

https://youtu.be/glJ2mltMxtw

https://youtu.be/D1JH9qf9big

https://youtu.be/fHNMi8tKt_o

phillyproduct

Destruent wrote: »

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

@Destruent there are many vet trails encounters that require permablocking. Meaning no heavy attacks. Please tank one of these on a non DK, non warden tank, post a vid of it and prove me wrong.

where do you need to permablock?
vHoF? no....i heavy-attacked regularily to regain stam on my templar
vAA: First to 3rd boss are a joke, no permablock needed. Use SnB ult for axes on last boss or just drop block and heavy attack from time to time when tanking attros
vHRC: no permablock needed at any of those bosses, just learn their attack patterns
vSO: same as in vHRC
vMoL: first boss has a heavy-attack and last boss has some hard hitting mechanics, you can heavy-attack inbetween (2nd can be tanke in 5 medium, so no need to talk about that)

sry to disappoint you...don't have videos, bc i never thought it's any important to show non-DK-tanks in trials....
But in this thread are lots of well known and experienced guys who tell you it's possible...maybe you belive them if you don't have the experience/group/whatever to do it yourself?

summary: learn the attack-patterns/mechanics and you don't need to permablock in vettrials (axes are a different story, but even there you could drop block from time to time)

Im on console your on pc i actually watched a few videos of your too your good, you have addon's you have multiple people pulling 35k dps contently you have dk ot... You have a good group.

When was the last time you pugged? When was the last time a boss took more than 5min to beat when was the last time your resources were really stretched? Honestly are trials even difficult 4 your group?

Asardes

phillyproduct wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Balanced game doesn't mean that all classes can do every role with similar results. That would be a game that really has no use for classes. Classes need only be balanced against each other PvP wise, in PvE it's irrelevant if a DK will pull 10% less DPS than a sorcerer, and the DK will be able to tank 6 axes in vAA, while the sorcerer can only handle 4.

Not trying to go down this rabbit hole so plz excuse the analogy

Ff14 has 3tank class all feel different and tank different ways but are all equally wanted and saught after no one frowns when they get a pally or panics when a warrior joins

Today if you logged on and 3buddies ask you to pug a trial with them and your tanks were a nb and sorc and your healers were a warden and dk and your 4buddies are all dps whats your 1st reaction?

Ff14 has no reaction on any class dps healing or tanking thats how well balanced it is, and it still isnt perfect either.

How many classes are in that game? Are they structured the same, or have various sub-classes? It might be an entirely different design philosophy, so the comparison is not very relevant. You can tank dungeons, even veteran DLC HM ones with every class all right if you have proper gear, and use different skills. But veteran trials, the HMs especially are a tier above that in difficulty. Being off-tank is also viable on pretty much every class since usually you don't perma-block. For example NB is quite viable in the off-tank role since it can build up ultimate fast, and has access to major evasion, which can also be viewed as a damage mitigation and block cost reduction; also it's the only class which can proc Tava's Favor set in heavy armor.

AverageJo3Gam3r

DocFrost72 wrote: »

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Did you try tankin on other classes or are you just assuming other classes can not tank because you do neva see any?

@Alcast Why would I? I don't have the luxury of being in a vet trials group where everyone pulls 40k+ dps. I don't have the luxury of having the best tanks and healers in the game. Most folks don't. When my *casual* trials group makes the all time vSO leaderboards, it's clear that most people are not able to clear vet trials. As a tank, why would I choose a spec with sub-par group support just because I can or because I want to be different? When we're struggling to clear content, why make a selfish choice?

Maybe one day I'll have the luxury of running in a group that is talented enough that we can do a naked all-sorc storm atro mop and bucket vmol run. But until then, I'll continue to run the spec that provides the most group support.

You're mistaken on how much dps is needed for vet trials, and the level of difference in non DK tanks and DK tanks. Those things exist, and of course help, but only if you're going for score...

@DocFrost72 You're majoring on the minors. My point is that the end game community is an echo chamber that has been so good for so long, and runs with people that have been so good for so long, that they forget what the other 99% of the community experience. When was the last time you spent 3+ hours at worldshaper in vSO HM? I'll raise my hand because I did last week. When my playgroup is not skilled enough to reliably get out of world shaper, or not steal each other's pink balls, or the off tank dies to manticoras, as a tank why would I choose anything but the class that gives me the most tools, even if it's just 1% better than the rest? My ESO experience may not be like yours, but this is the experience that the majority of ESO players face. Being good enough to want to do end game content, but not quite at the elite level yet.