ARE U HAPPY NOW ZOS IS DOING SOMETHING***Interview With Miat*** Lets Talk Add Ons, Cheating and Q/A

kargen27

It puts people who either won't or can't use it at a disadvantage.

It is cheating.

cheat
CHēt/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: cheating

1. act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.

The addon provides an unfair advantage or it wouldn't be useful. By definition...cheating.

Riejael

kargen27 wrote: »

It puts people who either won't or can't use it at a disadvantage.

It is cheating.

cheat
CHēt/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: cheating

1. act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.

The addon provides an unfair advantage or it wouldn't be useful. By definition...cheating.

And who decides that criteria? You?
Or ZOS?

Binary question asked. Do you decide what is fair and unfair, or does ZOS?

JonnytheKing

God , poeple need to grow up

Taysa

That "logic" can be applied to practically every add on out there.

DDuke

Riejael wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

It puts people who either won't or can't use it at a disadvantage.

It is cheating.

cheat
CHēt/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: cheating

1. act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.

The addon provides an unfair advantage or it wouldn't be useful. By definition...cheating.

And who decides that criteria? You?
Or ZOS?

Binary question asked. Do you decide what is fair and unfair, or does ZOS?

To most people it's fairly obvious. You see something functioning not as intended and people taking advantage of it... well, that's pretty much cheating, especially when it provides an unfair (again, fairly obvious to most people) advantage.

And yes, the API is not functioning as intended as per the latest official reply from ZOS on this subject:

Originally Posted by dorrino View Post
While you're here i have a question.

This change obviously severely limits the features of my addon. Can i (we) get an official stance on which parts of the addon are not desirable within ZOS design direction?

Even after the change i have some ideas how to still get the info i need for the addon to work. This will be noticeably more cumbersome and unreliable (probably) though.

In any case my intention is NOT to start an arms race with you guys. And i don't really want to spend hours of developing an intricate system to circumvent this change only to realize you will counter it with some other change

So, please, tell me which features are fine to have within your vision and which features will get an active countermeasures from you?

Thank you,

PS. Chip, in 5-10 min i'll PM you an exploit, that i found, that is very much possible with the current API. It technically allows to automate almost any players actions and CONDITIONALLY call protected and PRIVATE functions even when in combat. Cheers

ZOS_ChipHilseberg
I believe that it was anything that allows you to detect the presence or actions of a hostile player without having to see them.

So why don't you just cut the crap and tell us why you think you need 3rd party plugins to circumvent game mechanics & get an advantage over others?

DDuke

Taysa wrote: »

That "logic" can be applied to practically every add on out there.

Which other addon provides an in game advantage not part of the base game (i.e. seeing unseen opponents cast timers)?

There are plenty of addons which provide things of convenience, but not advantages over other players.

Drummerx04

DDuke wrote: »

Taysa wrote: »

That "logic" can be applied to practically every add on out there.

Which other addon provides an in game advantage not part of the base game (i.e. seeing unseen opponents cast timers)?

There are plenty of addons which provide things of convenience, but not advantages over other players.

Raidnotifier pretty much does the same thing except for PvE trials. It's a little less frowned upon there because you are fighting NPCs rather than other players, so "unfair" isn't really as big of a deal.

kargen27

Riejael wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

It puts people who either won't or can't use it at a disadvantage.

It is cheating.

cheat
CHēt/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: cheating

1. act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.

The addon provides an unfair advantage or it wouldn't be useful. By definition...cheating.

And who decides that criteria? You?
Or ZOS?

Binary question asked. Do you decide what is fair and unfair, or does ZOS?

Nothing to decide with this. The addon provides unfair advantage. Even those who use it admit that. The person who wrote it admits it provides an unfair advantage. All that is left is for ZoS to decide if this level of cheating warrants any disciplinary actions.

I understand that people need to sleep at night and feel good about their game play so they make excuses. In the end though we all know the addon is an unfair advantage and is cheating.

geonsocal

JonnytheKing wrote: »

God , poeple need to grow up

too funny jonny

I remember creating some thread on teabagging shortly after I had joined the forums...

I'm normally pretty chilled and non-confrontational - some of the responses and back in forth between people on the thread freaked me out...hahahahahahahaha...

yeah man, some folks take eso, games and other stuff very seriously...

I guess it's good to be "passionate"

VirtualElizabeth

In terms of combat I really don't see the advantage of the Add-On to be honest. I see a big emblem saying incoming attack from random player X - but with the zergs being the dominant play style it has yet to make a huge diff in terms of defense. There is too much going on during most battles for it to make or break a fight for me.

But I do say I love the Quality of Life features - improved directional cues, ayleid well locations etc - those type of features. Even if they take away the combat alerts I would still like to use the add on for the QOL stuff.

Samadhi

geonsocal wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Am very much Daoist in my view regarding rules and regulations

just spent a few minutes trying to nail down a definition of daoism...yikes, not so easy ...the only thing i really got was: living one with the world...which i actually thought was like having a gaia philosophy...so much to learn

this kinda sounds like anarchism though :

Samadhi wrote: »

the only thing that laws do is create criminals
and the only thing rules do is create cheaters
without terms attempting to dictate action, individuals are free to simply be

there has to be rules in games...and, you would hope for those competitors involved to embrace some semblance of "fair" play...

some third party creation hindering an entire playstyle (and to some degree class) doesn't seem fair at all...

Daoism is kind of anarchistic in its principles
The works of Laozi and Zhuangzi put themselves heavily into the idea that the natural mode of being is free and easy
and that the Sage does not strive after things

this contrasts with the influences of Confucianism where the idea is that the natural mode of being is heavily regimented and hierarchical
and that perfect adherence to ritual tradition brings an individual into line with freedom

Am far from a Sage, and only informed on the matter through majoring in the study of Eastern Religions
so may very well be even further from 'understanding' of Daoism due to historical study

It is helpful to think of existence like water
stopping up one area just means it will eventually spill out around it
similar to how Miats addon appears to have gone from directly notifying of players in stealth
to instead notifying of the actions taken by players who are stealthed
and it was expressed earlier in this thread that an 'arms race' is undesirable
but that there are other ways to tease out the desired information (who is hidden/about to attack from Stealth)

The Tao-Te-Ching (Book of the Way) is an anti-intellectual, anti-authoritarian treatise which posits that the way of virtue lies in simplicity and a recognition of a natural, universal force known as the Tao. Lao-Tzu writes, “When we renounce learning we have no troubles…The ancients who showed their skill in practising the Tao did so not to enlighten people, but to make them simple and ignorant.” By `ignorant’ Lao-Tzu did not mean uninformed but, rather, purposefully focused on the present rather than accumulating knowledge which leads to idle speculation and complications in one’s own life and in the larger community. Lao-Tzu’s Taoism stood in direct contradiction to Confucius’ philosophy emphasizing education, knowledge as power, and strict adherence to the law. Lao-Tzu’s claim that “the more laws one makes, the more criminals one creates” is the antithesis of Confucius’s assertion that more laws make better citizens. Regarding Lao-Tzu’s claims, Durant writes,

The intellectual man is a danger to the state because he thinks in terms of regulations and laws; he wishes to construct a society like geometry, and does not realize that such regulation destroys the living freedom and vigor of the parts. The simpler man, who knows from his own experience the pleasure and efficacy of work, conceived and carried out in liberty, is less of a peril when he is in power, for he does not have to be told that a law is a dangerous thing, and may injure more than it may help. Such a ruler regulates men as little as possible. (654)

https://www.ancient.eu/Lao-Tzu/

"Sincere words are not pretty.
Pretty words are not sincere." -- Laozi

If you wish to talk more on this subject, feel free to pm me so we are not clogging up this thread

but basically, with regards to rules and gaming
there are two levels of rules
there are the concrete rules of the coding of the game that dictates what is and is not possible within the game universe
in comparison to what is and is not possible within the game client
then there are the abstract rules assigned by the company as to what is or is not permissible to enact within the discrepancy between the game universe and the game client

am also *** around in this conversation due to having spent several years as a moderator
for an MMORPG company that localized Chinese and Korean titles to North America and Europe
and realize that nothing we do or say here will have real impact; ZOS has to check what the code makes possible
and decide if that is in-line with their vision
all we can do is speculate on the basis of what is and is not accessible to players in the normal flow of gameplay

Dorrino

kargen27 wrote: »

The person who wrote it admits it provides an unfair advantage.

The person who wrote it strongly disagrees that any advantage that people can find in pvpalerts (or any other addon) can be unfair.

It's on a similar level with 'enabling nameplates provides unfair advantage over people who did not enable them'. Even advantage part is arguable and could be interpreted as a convenience. But unfairness has nothing to do with the whole ordeal whatsoever.

Taysa

Anything that the base game doesn't provide can be considered an unfair advantage. It's advantageous to me to use TTC to find the prices of stuff with the click of a button over someone who can't or won't run the add on themselves. Someone already pointed out Raidnotifier.

Also, if you're going to champion against using a specific add on, you might not want to link your Youtube in your signature, which features at least one video of you using that exact add on. (Didn't bother watching any of the others because I'm too busy laughing at the blatant hypocrisy)

Nyladreas

Samadhi wrote: »

DoShazarr wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

geonsocal wrote: »

....

basically it boils down to:


...

If law enforcement does not witness your action or find sufficient evidence
you have not committed a crime
that is why murderers often go to great lengths to dispose of bodies

It's true though... but nice try.

Agree it is true, that is why it was stated.

"but nice try"
What on earth were you attempting to interpret my statement as being intended to express beyond what was written
o.O

Thought you were sarcastic.

geonsocal

@Samadhi - thank you very much for taking the time to write and explain...i really appreciate it...

if you're not growing, you're dying...

D0PAMINE

My pvp toon is a StamDK. I suck at pvp and loose most 1 on 1 encounters. A Stamblade wood elf tried to gank me, and caught me off guard with a bow . I killed him, without needing an addon to warn me. I dont care what tactics people use anymore. War is war, and it's simply rediculous to expect to have a build that can counter anything and have no weaknesses.

kargen27

Dorrino wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

The person who wrote it admits it provides an unfair advantage.

The person who wrote it strongly disagrees that any advantage that people can find in pvpalerts (or any other addon) can be unfair.

It's on a similar level with 'enabling nameplates provides unfair advantage over people who did not enable them'. Even advantage part is arguable and could be interpreted as a convenience. But unfairness has nothing to do with the whole ordeal whatsoever.

He admitted in that interview that the addon provided an advantage. He just refuses to admit it is unfair justifying it by saying the code is there to use. Problem is some people are unable to run addons and he refuses to take that into account when addressing the fairness of the addon. That it provides an advantage is obvious and he admits it.

Skoomah

So part of becoming a top tier pvp'er in ESO is the ability to code add ons? Sounds like a pretty steep requirement.

Are you listening to your player base ZOS???

Dorrino

kargen27 wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

The person who wrote it admits it provides an unfair advantage.

The person who wrote it strongly disagrees that any advantage that people can find in pvpalerts (or any other addon) can be unfair.

It's on a similar level with 'enabling nameplates provides unfair advantage over people who did not enable them'. Even advantage part is arguable and could be interpreted as a convenience. But unfairness has nothing to do with the whole ordeal whatsoever.

He admitted in that interview that the addon provided an advantage. He just refuses to admit it is unfair justifying it by saying the code is there to use. Problem is some people are unable to run addons and he refuses to take that into account when addressing the fairness of the addon. That it provides an advantage is obvious and he admits it.

*He* admitted that the addon is something he enjoys to use. Advantage is purely subjective and results from your personal subjective benefits from running the addon. Or any addon. Or disabling the music to listen to combat audio cues or enabling/disabling some features of ZOS stock ui.

There're no people who can't run addons, while still being able to play the game. There's literally nothing that stops people from customizing their interface in whatever way they choose. Therefore there're zero grounds for unfairness. If you choose not to run it, you consider the result fair towards you.

Riejael

kargen27 wrote: »

Nothing to decide with this. The addon provides unfair advantage. Even those who use it admit that. The person who wrote it admits it provides an unfair advantage. All that is left is for ZoS to decide if this level of cheating warrants any disciplinary actions.

I understand that people need to sleep at night and feel good about their game play so they make excuses. In the end though we all know the addon is an unfair advantage and is cheating.

Sixteen hours later. And they have not taken action against me.

This addon was introduced, nearly a year ago? With a response that 'they would look into it'. That was before Morrowind. If there is nothing to decide, turn off the API hooks and ban people like me.

This is a black and white issue. You have to agree it is either cheating or not. You say vehemently it is. But why am I still able to post?

http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1545-MiatsPVPAlerts.html

Because ZOS makes and enforces the rules.

geonsocal

Riejael wrote: »

Sixteen hours later. And they have not taken action against me.

And they're coming to take me away ha-haaa
They're coming to take me away ha-haaa ***-*** hee-hee
To the funny farm where life is beautiful all the time
And I'll be happy to see those nice young men
In their clean white coats

actually met the guy who wrote this when i was a kid...drinking buddy of my dad...

i think you're safe for the moment @Riejael ...but, you should definitely keep checking just to make sure...

Riejael

geonsocal wrote: »

And they're coming to take me away ha-haaa
They're coming to take me away ha-haaa ***-*** hee-hee
To the funny farm where life is beautiful all the time
And I'll be happy to see those nice young men
In their clean white coats

actually met the guy who wrote this when i was a kid...drinking buddy of my dad...

i think you're safe for the moment @Riejael ...but, you should definitely keep checking just to make sure...

I don't believe anyone actually had the gall to report the post. So I'm probably safe.

If that's actually the case it means these players don't believe the arguments they are making and instead want us all to play only using 'their' approved addons and builds. They want us to play the way 'they' want us to.

Nope. Not going to happen. I'm going to play in the way that -I- interpret the rules. Backed by the way ZOS enforces them. And I encourage everyone else to do the same. Do not let peer pressure and insults decide how you play.

Play the way you wish. Use the addons you wish to use.

ZOS is sure to change the rules. They make balance changes, swap around how effects work. Sometimes open new APIs and sometimes close them. That's their choice. But until then, use the API as you see fit. Not how others think you should.

They have no right to dictate terms. Show them that fact in game.

Samadhi

geonsocal wrote: »

... - thank you very much for taking the time to write and explain...i really appreciate it...

if you're not growing, you're dying...

to me it is like reading and rereading the Art of War
there is a sort of timelessness that makes the texts come alive within the mind of the reader
with regards to the events of the moment

Always continue growing
plant the seeds of freedom

especially if you are fortunate enough to be living somewhere where growing is legal ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EygqL--RW4

Wrubius_Coronaria

@Dorrino

I am curious (without judging if your addon is bad or not), why did you create this addon? Was it to give the opportunity to counter the insane burst from some skills (like snipe for example and incap strike from stealth) and combos (ganking)?
I really like to know if it was in this purpose.

KingMagaw

Dorrino wrote: »

There're no people who can't run addons, while still being able to play the game. There's literally nothing that stops people from customizing their interface in whatever way they choose. Therefore there're zero grounds for unfairness. If you choose not to run it, you consider the result fair towards you.

This is based on everyone who plays ESO knows about your addon. That is the fallacy here. New players dont know and then by distinction/admission they are at a disadvantage when playing. It is simply not fair that environment.

Simplistically your addon provides a direct advantage over someone not using it. Enough said - ZoS should look at the API and done what they did before and that is to restrict it like was done before

Riejael

KingMagaw wrote: »

This is based on everyone who plays ESO knows about animation canceling. That is the fallacy here. New players dont know and then by distinction/admission they are at a disadvantage when playing. It is simply not fair that environment.

Simplistically animation canceling provides a direct advantage over someone not using it. Enough said - ZoS should look at the AC and done what they did before and that is to restrict it like was done before

Changes made in bold. You can replace that with how set bonuses and CP interacts with how skills work. None of that is explained to new players. New players have to just wing it until it works. New players like everyone else have to go outside the game to figure all that out.

Point is, the new player argument is weak. New players become vets in the same way everyone else did. Addons are apart of that.

Inarre

I dislike miats addon. I dislike how cheap it makes pvp and i dislike how it forces people to download the addon if they want to enter pvp on even ground with their enemies.

That said, the addon is no more a cheat than ttc or mm. Those who have it have a significant edge over those who do not.

So while i dislike this addon and it seems cheap and sleazy, in that sense all of eso is just one big greyscale of cheating and we should not pinolize Miat (or myat or whatever) for it. He made a PVP equivalent of already existing addons that the majority of the pc playerbase uses. Again its up to the big unknowable and seemingly unmovable entity that is zos to decide or action as they please.

DDuke

Taysa wrote: »

Anything that the base game doesn't provide can be considered an unfair advantage. It's advantageous to me to use TTC to find the prices of stuff with the click of a button over someone who can't or won't run the add on themselves. Someone already pointed out Raidnotifier.

Also, if you're going to champion against using a specific add on, you might not want to link your Youtube in your signature, which features at least one video of you using that exact add on. (Didn't bother watching any of the others because I'm too busy laughing at the blatant hypocrisy)

Yes, RaidNotifier was pointed out and I agree it provides an advantage (in the very "competitive" environment of PvE raiding), but it isn't abusive/exploitative like Miat's Cheat Engine Lite as it doesn't make other peoples' playstyles unviable or force them to play builds they don't enjoy.

As for addons like TTC, MasterMerchant, Awesomeguildstore etc, those are convenience/QOL addons that don't affect other players at all. TTC/MasterMerchant don't make you lose fights or force you to play a different character archetype in a RPG.


And yes, I've said it multiple times I use Miat's myself. Why wouldn't I? It's allowed, it provides an advantage and I like winning. The math is fairly obvious to me.

Doesn't mean it's right it exists or isn't cheating - but what does cheating matter when no one enforces the rules?

geonsocal

@Riejael ...we are a very diverse community here on the forum with participants from around the world (one of the things I love most about our forum community)...

it's enivitable that we will have disagreements based on our individual backgrounds and beliefs...

personally in regards to this particular issue I believe what you said in one of your posts to be the most significant point:

'zos makes the rules'...and, they're responsible for enforcing the rules they make...

until they are able to take action (personally, i don't think they have the resources at this time to address the issue) against 3rd party add-ons such as miats' - we're stuck where we are at...

Dorrino

Caitsith wrote: »

@Dorrino

I am curious (without judging if your addon is bad or not), why did you create this addon? Was it to give the opportunity to counter the insane burst from some skills (like snipe for example and incap strike from stealth) and combos (ganking)?
I really like to know if it was in this purpose.

I've answered this question multiple times:)

Back in the days oneshots from stealth were really widespread. And all of them, besides onslaught ones, relied on prechanneling a heavy attack.

And at some point i thought 'it would be awesome if ZOS changed the game, so start of a channel would take the caster out of stealth instead of a successful hit'. But since, as is tradition, i couldn't expect ZOS even to comment on the issue (changing anything deems impossible) i had an idea that maybe they already provided a way to get notified about channels against you.

Well, they did. So it turned out they didn't need to change anything. The only thing that needed to be done was to make that information visible.

And that's what i've done.

Later, while solving some UI issues (like trying to determine if a channel was being cast by a stealthed target or not to reflect that in the notifications, i found a way to to count stealthed/non stealthed people around the player etc, etc:)

But it all started with a guess that ZOS might have already provided the information about channels against the player.