ARE U HAPPY NOW ZOS IS DOING SOMETHING***Interview With Miat*** Lets Talk Add Ons, Cheating and Q/A

geonsocal

Caitsith wrote: »

@Dorrino

I am curious (without judging if your addon is bad or not), why did you create this addon?

Samadhi

Dorrino wrote: »

...
Back in the days oneshots from stealth were really widespread. And all of them, besides onslaught ones, relied on prechanneling a heavy attack.

And at some point i thought 'it would be awesome if ZOS changed the game, so start of a channel would take the caster out of stealth instead of a successful hit'. But since, as is tradition, i couldn't expect ZOS even to comment on the issue (changing anything deems impossible) i had an idea that maybe they already provided a way to get notified about channels against you.
...

At a guess,
the 'reason' the caster is not pulled out of stealth at the start of the channel
is because the 'hidden' state and positioning relative to the target
is used to process and calculate the Sneak Attack bonus
that the game uses to apply bonus damage and a stun
independent of the characteristics of the skill (or, in the instance of a heavy attack, the weapon type, range, etc.)

the game distinguishes between being in front of or behind an enemy in calculating sneak attacks
but when channeling a skill like Snipe, Wrecking Blow, or a Heavy Attack
it waits until the target is hit before calculating a successful sneak attack
the game "knows" that a hit is incoming that has to be calculated as receiving a sneak attack bonus or not
but the game does not "know" for certain whether it is a sneak attack until the hit makes contact
such that turning to face the direction of the incoming attack before it lands removes the sneak attack bonus

at a further guess, since such checks also exist for Dark Flare and hardcast Crystal Fragments despite not being able to receive a sneak attack bonus
the game does not bother to distinguish between the Hidden or Detected states until the hit lands and the calculation is run

unless things have changed since my testing
ZOS has certainly fiddled a lot with stealth over the years

Dorrino

Samadhi wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

...
Back in the days oneshots from stealth were really widespread. And all of them, besides onslaught ones, relied on prechanneling a heavy attack.

And at some point i thought 'it would be awesome if ZOS changed the game, so start of a channel would take the caster out of stealth instead of a successful hit'. But since, as is tradition, i couldn't expect ZOS even to comment on the issue (changing anything deems impossible) i had an idea that maybe they already provided a way to get notified about channels against you.
...

At a guess,
the 'reason' the caster is not pulled out of stealth at the start of the channel
is because the 'hidden' state and positioning relative to the target
is used to process and calculate the Sneak Attack bonus
that the game uses to apply bonus damage and a stun
independent of the characteristics of the skill (or, in the instance of a heavy attack, the weapon type, range, etc.)

the game distinguishes between being in front of or behind an enemy in calculating sneak attacks
but when channeling a skill like Snipe, Wrecking Blow, or a Heavy Attack
it waits until the target is hit before calculating a successful sneak attack
the game "knows" that a hit is incoming that has to be calculated as receiving a sneak attack bonus or not
but the game does not "know" for certain whether it is a sneak attack until the hit makes contact
such that turning to face the direction of the incoming attack before it lands removes the sneak attack bonus

at a further guess, since such checks also exist for Dark Flare and hardcast Crystal Fragments despite not being able to receive a sneak attack bonus
the game does not bother to distinguish between the Hidden or Detected states until the hit lands and the calculation is run

unless things have changed since my testing
ZOS has certainly fiddled a lot with stealth over the years

This is correct.

But now, after stealth stopped providing bonus damage, only stun component remained.

Generally, right now notifications for stealthed attacks stopped being important.

Besides ambush from stealth, because it allows immediate follow-up and unlike other gapclosers ambush from stealth doesn't put charge snare on the target.

Vaoh

That one time when being a console pleb feels AWESOME!

For once, PC players get to be the plebs

geonsocal

okay, so i think i get it now - miat = @Dorrino

first and foremost - much respect for having the ability to manifest your desires through coding...

outstanding work...it actually makes me smile to read your posts and hear the pride and joy in your words describing your creation...

not be mean - but, kind of hoping though at some point another mmo grabs your interest...

I'm gonna guess that ain't happening anytime soon though - in which case, try to be kind to your fellow tamriel travelers...

the game can be challenging enough with zos messing with us

Riejael

geonsocal wrote: »

@Riejael ...we are a very diverse community here on the forum with participants from around the world (one of the things I love most about our forum community)...

it's enivitable that we will have disagreements based on our individual backgrounds and beliefs...

I'm going to be totally honest, I don't like the addon. I think the API call that allows for such an alert is just too much information for a player to have. That said I don't like the fact that the NBA rim is 10' off the ground. I think it should be 12' to encourage more passing and more shooting rather than ball hogging and dunking/layups.

I don't choose the rule for the NBA though. Their collective body does that. And I am not going to call players cheating who don't pass and shoot.

So I do take an issue with players calling others cheaters. Its merely an attempt to control their playstyle into what their own vision is. Like you I enjoy the fact that we have a diverse group of players. Many are clever with builds, skills, and sets. Others are clever with what addons they create. That sort of community should be celebrated.

I don't want their to be some player authority that dictates what is right and what is wrong. That's the dev's job. They create an environment that fits their vision of the game. I bought into that when I purchased the game. I didn't buy the game to see players try to bully others into what addons they can or cannot use.

Its fine if you think the Miat's Alerts addon gives too much info. Totally fine, I even agree. I've even said this fact the first time it was brought up if anyone wants to look into it. But to use insults and attacks. The reasoning isn't to make a fair game. The reason is to get players to play the way you want them to so you can take advantage of them.

I saw this happen in MechWarrior 3 and 4 back in the 90s. People would make arbitrary rules about shooting off the legs of mechs. If anyone's played the single player campaigns, that's the most effective way to take down a mech. But in multiplayer you were insulted, called dishonorable, and a cheater if you did it.

But you know what people were doing? They were taking 2 tons of armor off their legs to place it into an extra 4 small lasers, 2 medium lasers, or 2 double heatsinks. This allowed them to have more firepower or more sustainability than those who had regular armor in their legs. They knew the community wouldn't attack their legs so they took advantage of it.

So I don't trust players when they insult others over a silly issue. The intentions are not as noble as they claim.

When I played Archeage, one of the things my guild was accused of doing was zerging. Like somehow having a large coordinated group in a game that supported it was some how cheating or wrong. Like somehow being insulted on a daily basis is going to make us want to tone back our numbers.

No. Not going to happen.

As for my personal opinions on the addon, they are irrelevant. What I like and don't like don't matter. What matters is my ability to take what is in the game, and what players are using and adapt. That's what I'm supposed to do. And I only ever hold others to the same standard as I hold myself.

They won't agree, its counter to what they are doing. That's fine, because at the end of the day. Their feelings are irrelevant, just as mine are.

personally in regards to this particular issue I believe what you said in one of your posts to be the most significant point:

'zos makes the rules'...and, they're responsible for enforcing the rules they make...

until they are able to take action (personally, i don't think they have the resources at this time to address the issue) against 3rd party add-ons such as miats' - we're stuck where we are at...

Its really not that hard. They only need those who work on the API's to analyze what the hooks do and what information is given out. If the information is fine to them, they leave it be. If they find it isn't, they close those calls off. Its pretty simple, if not time consuming. The only thing the powers that be need to do is discuss what information they like and don't like to be present to addons and the players themselves.

If they make a change, we adapt to it. If they don't, we deal with it.

Its not that complex for ZOS, and not that complex for the players to deal with. We just make it more so for whatever reason.

Rudyard

I have to agree with Miat in that this is information that ZOS has made accessible. You may have a right to be upset that it's accessible only through coding of add-ons, but be mad at ZOS for making it that way. ZOS could make it to where that information is not accessible and they have not. ZOS can fix this. Why do they not? Ask ZOS.

With regards to "unfair advantage" the same argument can be applied to vampirism, certain sets that can only be obtained through pve content, etc. Furthermore, it's not like Miat is holding some secret knowledge just for himself or selling it for profit. He has made if freely available for any who choose to install the add-on. It is available to everyone through ZOS' coding and even more readily available through Miat making it accessible to you without understanding coding.

This game has been full of knuckleheads since beta who have figured out certain things that were advantageous in game and kept quiet about them, using them hush-hush for as long as they could ride that advantage without others knowing about it. Miat has done the opposite, and put it out there for you all.

On a side note, I've fought Miat many, many times on the field, and he almost always kicks my butt or gets away. I still enjoy the challenge instead of trying to blame it on some slight advantage from an add-on that I might have chosen not to install.

And Miat, salutations to you a superbly skilled and crafty opponent. I can't count the number of times I've cursed you and laughed at your skill in turning me into road kill.

Vapirko

Rudyard wrote: »

I have to agree with Miat in that this is information that ZOS has made accessible. You may have a right to be upset that it's accessible only through coding of add-ons, but be mad at ZOS for making it that way. ZOS could make it to where that information is not accessible and they have not. ZOS can fix this. Why do they not? Ask ZOS.

With regards to "unfair advantage" the same argument can be applied to vampirism, certain sets that can only be obtained through pve content, etc. Furthermore, it's not like Miat is holding some secret knowledge just for himself or selling it for profit. He has made if freely available for any who choose to install the add-on. It is available to everyone through ZOS' coding and even more readily available through Miat making it accessible to you without understanding coding.

This game has been full of knuckleheads since beta who have figured out certain things that were advantageous in game and kept quiet about them, using them hush-hush for as long as they could ride that advantage without others knowing about it. Miat has done the opposite, and put it out there for you all.

On a side note, I've fought Miat many, many times on the field, and he almost always kicks my butt or gets away. I still enjoy the challenge instead of trying to blame it on some slight advantage from an add-on that I might have chosen not to install.

And Miat, salutations to you a superbly skilled and crafty opponent. I can't count the number of times I've cursed you and laughed at your skill in turning me into road kill.

The argument isn’t about whether Miat is a good player or not. And that addon is not a “slight” advantage, it makes it very easy to avoid a lot of incoming damage and essentially negates certain aspects of gameplay. It’s an entirely different mode of combat which is not at all native to the game. Call it whatever you want but it’s unnecessary. No addons should give you info about the other players actions or stats in any way than what the game already provides.

Kram8ion

But officer I was only going as fast as the other cars on the road

Chrysa1is

I can't stand people who convince themselves something is acceptable when it clearly is not. They believe their own complete nonsense, and it really bothers me.

Say all you want, but it is cheating. I'm not even on PC and the add-on offends me and bothers me so much lol.

Dorrino

geonsocal wrote: »

not be mean - but, kind of hoping though at some point another mmo grabs your interest...

Shamelessly plugs Guilds Wars 2.

^ awesome

Dorrino

Rudyard wrote: »

On a side note, I've fought Miat many, many times on the field, and he almost always kicks my butt or gets away. I still enjoy the challenge instead of trying to blame it on some slight advantage from an add-on that I might have chosen not to install.

And Miat, salutations to you a superbly skilled and crafty opponent. I can't count the number of times I've cursed you and laughed at your skill in turning me into road kill.

and man, try not to zerg me too much, because that reduces your own challenge:)

Malic

none of this matters though, ZOS allows it. You can call it whatever the hell you want if they let it go its fair play.

Its complete cheese IMHO but ya thats just my opinion. If you are looking for good challenging PVP that has a COMPANY THAT SUPPORTS AND ENCOURAGES GOOD GAME PLAY you are in the wrong game.

That aint miats fault, its yours.

Dorrino

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

I can see many of you are blinded by emotions and are in no capacity to face the cunning and deadly Miat (pronounced My-At). You bested me in a 5 out of 5 duel to the death Miat. Your build with its healing and sustain is something even 17 year old Kodi can admire. My build had no chance, and you took the opportunity to strike like a viper waiting in the low-lying shrubbery.

No one, no man or woman, cat, lizard, elf, or buck tooth orc here in this thread or in all of Tamriel will be the one to send you to oblivion. And you know this Miat.... But at the same time anxiety grips your chest because you know something. You know of the PROPHECY whispered among the most ancient of argonians and the oldest of khajiit. The old fur balls on their 9th life. Their claws once ivory now yellowed with age like a nord's rotten teeth. These old cats and lizards whisper of the prophecy of the return of a great warrior! A warrior who walked Nirn long ago and who vanished without a trace. A warrior who sought to rid Mundus of dark magics and those who obey shadow.... "A blinding light will evaporate the dark, and the just shall walk Nirn free with a breeze carrying the aroma of sage".

I love you so much:) This was awesome!

JonnytheKing

Chrysa1is wrote: »

I can't stand people who convince themselves something is acceptable when it clearly is not. They believe their own complete nonsense, and it really bothers me.

Say all you want, but it is cheating. I'm not even on PC and the add-on offends me and bothers me so much lol.

it easy to convince your self of something when its the truth !!!

MetalHead4x4

It's an advantage for Stam players period. Who are the ones who have the ability to dodge all those attacks? Stam players. Magicka players don't have the stamina to consistently dodge more than one or two attacks and we are out of stam, this gives stam players the opportunity to not only dodge what's obvious but also dodge what they don't see coming. It provides an advantage against magicka players. As if the endless 9 out of 10 dodging wasn't ridiculous enough they know now when our attacks are coming and can counter, and we cannot.

usmcjdking

I am still puzzled why people care about this add on lol.

Hempyre

It's not these addons themselves I mind. If ZOS says It's ok, then it's ok...

It's the potential to push this info into auto blockers and scripts that bothers me.

I've seen far, far, to many peeps blocking with split second accuracy recently to think it's coincidence.

Kronuxx

So now we have had countless responses, threads, and opinions on this subject matter. In regards to both Miat's add-on and to other unsavory more subtle methods of cheating. I understand that zos has posted recently that they are aware of this topic but I, and others I'm sure (I know I'm not the only one) want more. I want more transparency, and I want ZOS to take action and limit the API. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Wrobel. This topic amongst others will never be ignored. It will always keep coming back ZOS until it's finally addressed. I suggest you guys stop ignoring the issue because I can tell you right now, that if a new potential player saw this topic amongst others in regards to cheating, and saw a developer that was non committal towards it's policies or strict with cheating, then I'm sure it turns away a potential number of clients.

Jaybe_Mawfaka

LegendaryMage wrote: »

What's interesting is that people who are like 'it's in the game so it's alright' are definitely not concerned with balance of any kind.

To me an exploit is an exploit is an exploit etc etc.

I could care less if ZOS comes out tomorrow and says 'cheat engine is allowed, multiple munduses are allowed, miat's crutchlerts is allowed, whatever else is allowed' I would still call it out for what it is, either an exploit or an unfair advantage, better known as a 'crutch'. I like to call this add-on a crutch. Until the questionable features are done away with, this is a crutch. It's been a crutch before, it's a crutch now, and it's going to stay a crutch tomorrow if left unchanged.

In this case it's tricky to 'technically' call something a cheat if it's allowed in the game, but I want to see anyone argue that this is balanced and should stay. I really want to hear those arguments, and they better be out of this world to convince me that it's totally fine.

And you know what, even if you don't want to call something an exploit, a cheat, a whatever - let's just agree that it's wrong and it shouldn't be in the game and not waste a single minute debating whether something is an exploit or not, but rather debating whether something should BE in the game or NOT.

We are wasting time arguing with people who are supportive of it, we are wasting time arguing with players who are working on it, we need to explain to Wheeler and Lambert that this is really messed up, and the good old PVP that we used to have is morphing into something that old-timers such as myself are really getting tired of.

(I'm actually just getting ready to checkout my copy of Battlefield 1, I'll still be playing ESO but there's no way that I'll ever play it as much as I did before if things don't move in the right direction).

For the first time I agree with you.
Call it however you want to, but addons like this should not be allowed, period.

Enslaved

Riejael wrote: »

When you equate using an addon to murder. Its a little hard to take that argument seriously.

Since you have some "statements" and similar bs in this thread, let me give you some more "statements"

• Anyone using this and similar addons is a cheater, no matter what Zos says
• Anyone using this and similar addons is killing PvP more than lag or destro zergs.
• Anyone using this or similar addons is pathetic, no matter what rank he has etc.
• Anyone justifying use of this and similar addons should be banned from any PvP.

I would like to send regards to this bs addon creator, and wish him all the worst in game.

Also, if Zos does not fix this exploit, I demand them to compensate all the ppl they ever banned for using any sort of exploit in this game.

Derra

KingMagaw wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

There're no people who can't run addons, while still being able to play the game. There's literally nothing that stops people from customizing their interface in whatever way they choose. Therefore there're zero grounds for unfairness. If you choose not to run it, you consider the result fair towards you.

This is based on everyone who plays ESO knows about your addon. That is the fallacy here. New players dont know and then by distinction/admission they are at a disadvantage when playing. It is simply not fair that environment.

Simplistically your addon provides a direct advantage over someone not using it. Enough said - ZoS should look at the API and done what they did before and that is to restrict it like was done before

I´ve just had to explain a veteran pvp player that has been playing for years now that the game provides ingame bufftracking since morrowind.
So by your logic every UI option that is not standard on falls under the same category.

The fallacy is the assumption that any information that is not presented firsthand is an unfair advantage (same goes for gamemechanics etc pp). You have to educate yourself.

KingMagaw

Derra wrote: »

KingMagaw wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

There're no people who can't run addons, while still being able to play the game. There's literally nothing that stops people from customizing their interface in whatever way they choose. Therefore there're zero grounds for unfairness. If you choose not to run it, you consider the result fair towards you.

This is based on everyone who plays ESO knows about your addon. That is the fallacy here. New players dont know and then by distinction/admission they are at a disadvantage when playing. It is simply not fair that environment.

Simplistically your addon provides a direct advantage over someone not using it. Enough said - ZoS should look at the API and done what they did before and that is to restrict it like was done before

I´ve just had to explain a veteran pvp player that has been playing for years now that the game provides ingame bufftracking since morrowind.
So by your logic every UI option that is not standard on falls under the same category.

The fallacy is the assumption that any information that is not presented firsthand is an unfair advantage (same goes for gamemechanics etc pp). You have to educate yourself.

I can see your point but the difference i feel is:

Educating yourself on in game features that ZoS has intentionally provided versus getting information that i think should not be there. Once again your argument was made when Miatts was first released and providing more information that it does now, players brought it to ZoS attention, it was looked at and the result was the API was reduced meaning it was not ZoS intent to have this addon or any addon access to that much API information.

Even though this addon was reduced once by ZoS, i feel it was a quick fix and they need to look at it again. Buff tracking is one thing, having an addon that provides this much information is a crutch and a detriment to PvP, in my opinion.

Grabmoore

Dorrino wrote: »

Rudyard wrote: »

On a side note, I've fought Miat many, many times on the field, and he almost always kicks my butt or gets away. I still enjoy the challenge instead of trying to blame it on some slight advantage from an add-on that I might have chosen not to install.

And Miat, salutations to you a superbly skilled and crafty opponent. I can't count the number of times I've cursed you and laughed at your skill in turning me into road kill.

and man, try not to zerg me too much, because that reduces your own challenge:)

LOL!

You talk about not reducing your own challenge? Pathetic being.... You are the founder of non skilled auto pilot PvP. No honour to be found.

DDuke

usmcjdking wrote: »

I am still puzzled why people care about this add on lol.

Puzzled?

Go and try to play a build using cast time abilities (e.g. Snipe, Dark Flare) when people do this:
https://youtu.be/zaB-sXFKHdE


Come back and tell us if you're still puzzled.

This addon (and similar private ones) are killing build diversity in PvP, and by killing build diversity they're killing the PvP (just look at the dwindling campaign populations on PC).


So pardon me if I care about being able to play something else than the very few toxic meta builds that are currently viable, and if I care about the future existence of this game.

JonnytheKing

rustic_potato wrote: »

I like how people bring up honor when they fight against people using addons. Some people fight for fun and some fight to win and some fight just to fight.

If there is something that gives you an advantage in the fight there is no reason to use it as long as it is withing the rules of engagement. The rules here involves the API that allows such addons.

Say player 1 goes to a keep looking for a fight with player 2. 10 players of player 2's group gang up and kill player 1. Player 1 cries dishonorlable combat but it is just valid battle tactics. Why take a fight that you don't know that you won't win. The addon is the same way if I get an advantage that allows me an advantage withing the rules of engagement there is no reason to not use it. It is a video game, there is no honor or pride. Just objectives that need to be taken and the most efficient way of doing it.

That is my thoughts on this matter.

thank you , some one with a brain wow wtf i cant believe it

JonnytheKing

D0PAMINE wrote: »

Cool thread. Still cheating.

care to explain your thoughts?

Doctordarkspawn

tplink3r1 wrote: »

It's not cheating by definition, either you like it or not.

It's debateable even with that definition, whether you like it or not.

Shardan4968

DDuke wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

I am still puzzled why people care about this add on lol.

Puzzled?

Go and try to play a build using cast time abilities (e.g. Snipe, Dark Flare) when people do this:
https://youtu.be/zaB-sXFKHdE


Come back and tell us if you're still puzzled.

This addon (and similar private ones) are killing build diversity in PvP, and by killing build diversity they're killing the PvP (just look at the dwindling campaign populations on PC).


So pardon me if I care about being able to play something else than the very few toxic meta builds that are currently viable, and if I care about the future existence of this game.

Oh yeah, it's not cheating, it's "unfair advantage", cheating is too harsh word for my feelings and you are just a hater and crybaby. Some players complain about lag caused by using addons and you can't ask ZOS to fix it, because they aren't responsible for addons in any way, it's just third party programme that you must download If you want to be viable in PvP, scrub. I just want an addon which will show me which players are using Miat's PvP alert, so I can know If I was killed by skill of dodging attacks or by just another n00b who pretend to be pr0.

Rickter

as of right now, Miat's addon was reviewed by ZOS about a year ago when it was alerting people to stealthed enemy players. that feature was removed the other features remained. it is very much like the pvp version of raid notifier.

with that being said, no its not considered a cheat or an exploit. there is a serious moral grey area concerning this addon with people on both sides of the fence and unfortunately the sole determination is up to ZOS.

whether you use the addon or not, unless otherwise stated by ZOS, its not bannable and wont jeopardize your account standing with ZOS. Opinions aside, this is the objective stance on this addon and its usage.

______________________________________________________________________________

With that being said: I personally enjoy the several Quality of Life improvements it adds to the game such as the "Press 'Q' to resurrect at nearest location; the auto accept BG queue; and the player counter.

those are the only three features of the addon i use. I found the other features quite intrusive. I also feel like from a player skill perspective, it severely diminishes the need for focus and awareness from the player utilizing that feature of the addon. If they never remove the addon, then i guess that concern is moot. but if they do remove that feature of the addon, those utilizing it are gimping themselves considerably.