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Master's Destruction Staff and Maelstrom's Two-Handed weapons need adjustments

  • Juhasow
    Juhasow
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    Ladislao wrote: »
    2000 bonus damage for Destructive Touch is slightly more than 3000 spell damage. Just compare with MSA DW: only 2000 wd/sd after Flurry.
    Plus cost reduction for more than 1000 magicka per cast.
    And don't forget about aoe potencial.

    This was already not bad last week. Now it doesn't need a buff in this direction at all.
    But of course I would look at the rework. Although we are well aware that the ZOS will not go for it.

    No objection to 2H.

    1st of all You compare boosting single attack to boosting series of ticks from DoT's. Thx for that 2000 wep dmg from maesltorm DW Your single target DoT's can do additional 10k dmg from all ticks. How much weapon dmg is that in Your formula , You still think additional 2k sounds strong ? Master dual wield will give 1,5k dmg to each of 4-5 ticks of Twin Slashes. How much weapon dmg is that in Your calculations ?

    Next thing is that 1k less magicka sounds very nice but You need to consider that this is 1k magicka because skill is very expensive at the beggining and after taking that 1k away it still wont be among the cheapest.

    AoE potential of this skill is weak. It deals not so strong additional dmg to nearby targets with lightning staff equipped when lightning staff heavy attacks deals not only more AoE dmg but also restoring magicka.
    Edited by Juhasow on October 13, 2017 4:16PM
  • Ragnaroek93
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    Juhasow wrote: »
    Ladislao wrote: »
    2000 bonus damage for Destructive Touch is slightly more than 3000 spell damage. Just compare with MSA DW: only 2000 wd/sd after Flurry.
    Plus cost reduction for more than 1000 magicka per cast.
    And don't forget about aoe potencial.

    This was already not bad last week. Now it doesn't need a buff in this direction at all.
    But of course I would look at the rework. Although we are well aware that the ZOS will not go for it.

    No objection to 2H.

    You still think additional 2k sounds strong ?

    I think so. With 2k extra dmg this weapon has the potential to make Reach replacing Force Pulse which would be quite strong.
    I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.
  • Derra
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    Derra wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Taonnor wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    The master destro is complete crap for PVE and PVP alike.

    People need to test their *** before going nuts over tooltip numbers.

    It needs DoT damage or noone will ever use it aside from the clueless.

    Your adjustment kills the PvP relevance of Master Destro. So please we need good adjustments, which will benefit both (PvE/PvP). Adding the dmg to the DoT part of Master Destro is very bad in PvP, because of HoT heals and Purge.

    PvP needs direct dmg, more direct dmg is better for pvp. I understand that PvE needs DoT dmg, but adjusting all master weapons for PvE is "unfair" against the PvP part. So please stop that *** ... Realy...

    The impact damage from destructive touch is non-existant.

    Master staves are not going to fix that for you.

    It can compete with crushing shock on a regular pvp build in terms of dmg and cost. It´s still not there yet (imo) but not complete crap either.
    I can see builds with the weapon being used.

    Force pulse still hits harder, is cheaper, is non reflectable, can proc various status effects... I don't really see how it can compete. From what I can tell, people generally don't use it for the damage in PVP.

    It works great with frags or assassins will combos as it´s better timed than other CCs. Also having your anytime ability be a CC can be incredibly good.
    You either want to CC on cooldown (or as close as possible) or you only want to CC when you burst - this opens up the possibility of cc on cooldown for some builds.

    Force pulse is an entirely different beast in pvp anyways. If you´re running that you´re most likely in a group with the size that makes the interrupt on shock irrelevant or you´re dueling (against classes where the interrupt is irrelevant).

    The lightning version with clench is the strongest "ranged" aoe in the game aswell.

    I bet you'll never use either the staff or the 2H

    I don´t have them... so :(

    I´d love to try it though.
    Edited by Derra on October 13, 2017 4:41PM
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • Derra
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    Dymence wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Taonnor wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    The master destro is complete crap for PVE and PVP alike.

    People need to test their *** before going nuts over tooltip numbers.

    It needs DoT damage or noone will ever use it aside from the clueless.

    Your adjustment kills the PvP relevance of Master Destro. So please we need good adjustments, which will benefit both (PvE/PvP). Adding the dmg to the DoT part of Master Destro is very bad in PvP, because of HoT heals and Purge.

    PvP needs direct dmg, more direct dmg is better for pvp. I understand that PvE needs DoT dmg, but adjusting all master weapons for PvE is "unfair" against the PvP part. So please stop that *** ... Realy...

    The impact damage from destructive touch is non-existant.

    Master staves are not going to fix that for you.

    It can compete with crushing shock on a regular pvp build in terms of dmg and cost. It´s still not there yet (imo) but not complete crap either.
    I can see builds with the weapon being used.

    Force pulse still hits harder, is cheaper, is non reflectable, can proc various status effects... I don't really see how it can compete. From what I can tell, people generally don't use it for the damage in PVP.

    It works great with frags or assassins will combos as it´s better timed than other CCs. Also having your anytime ability be a CC can be incredibly good.
    You either want to CC on cooldown (or as close as possible) or you only want to CC when you burst - this opens up the possibility of cc on cooldown for some builds.

    Force pulse is an entirely different beast in pvp anyways. If you´re running that you´re most likely in a group with the size that makes the interrupt on shock irrelevant or you´re dueling (against classes where the interrupt is irrelevant).

    The lightning version with clench is the strongest "ranged" aoe in the game aswell.

    I'm not denying it's a great skill to line up your burst, but you don't primarily use it for the damage it deals since it's very negligable.

    It´s comparable dmg to shock - like within 5% for the build i´d use it in.
    For every curse frags wrath combo you´d get atleast 2 dot ticks on top.

    It´s not complete nonsense to equip the weapon - no idea if it´s worth it either yet.

    I have played with reach instead of shock before - and i do prefer it over shock personally - BUT i have no idea if i want to replace either a 5p set or an undaunted set for that luxury - because as many ppl have rightfully stated: The skill just isn´t that great to begin with and the weapon just makes it competetive in the first place - not better.
    Edited by Derra on October 13, 2017 4:46PM
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • pieratsos
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    Juhasow wrote: »
    Ladislao wrote: »
    2000 bonus damage for Destructive Touch is slightly more than 3000 spell damage. Just compare with MSA DW: only 2000 wd/sd after Flurry.
    Plus cost reduction for more than 1000 magicka per cast.
    And don't forget about aoe potencial.

    This was already not bad last week. Now it doesn't need a buff in this direction at all.
    But of course I would look at the rework. Although we are well aware that the ZOS will not go for it.

    No objection to 2H.

    You still think additional 2k sounds strong ?

    I think so. With 2k extra dmg this weapon has the potential to make Reach replacing Force Pulse which would be quite strong.

    But the point is that you dont sacrifice anything to use force pulse. To make it worth the sacrifice then reach would have to be a hell of a lot better than force pulse. Not potentially on par with force pulse.
  • Ladislao
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    Juhasow wrote: »
    1st of all You compare boosting single attack to boosting series of ticks from DoT's. Thx for that 2000 wep dmg from maesltorm DW Your single target DoT's can do additional 10k dmg from all ticks. How much weapon dmg is that in Your formula , You still think additional 2k sounds strong ? Master dual wield will give 1,5k dmg to each of 4-5 ticks of Twin Slashes. How much weapon dmg is that in Your calculations ?
    MSA DW would not be strong if it didn't boost any single-target dots. In this case its effectiveness increases in proportion to the number of dots.
    In turn Master DW gives about 10k weapon damage for a single ability. It is surely strong if you are going to use Twin Slashes.
    If you want to say that Destro looks weak on DW background, then do not forget that during the time of Twin Slashes dot you can cast Destructive Touch up to 9 times in aoe. All is not so unambiguous. But it's definitely not a weak weapon.
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Next thing is that 1k less magicka sounds very nice but You need to consider that this is 1k magicka because skill is very expensive at the beggining and after taking that 1k away it still wont be among the cheapest.
    True. But as I said it's just a nice little thing for those who are going to use the skill as a spam-ability.
    Juhasow wrote: »
    AoE potential of this skill is weak. It deals not so strong additional dmg to nearby targets with lightning staff equipped when lightning staff heavy attacks deals not only more AoE dmg but also restoring magicka.
    Well, HA has long cast time and hasn't dot effect. There are lots of pros and cons for every single skill. I do not even know what else to add.


    I don't want to say Master Destro is incredibly strong or BiS or must have or etc. But already now I see potential in it. Who knows what other applications will be able to find this weapon. And for sure, I do not want it to buff again in the same vein. Otherwise, we risk to spend the next few months in Destructive Reach Spam Trains company :p
    Everything is viable
  • kojou
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    It seems that they are willing to tweak the numbers on things but not the behaviors, which is the kiss of death for the VDSA Master Staff. The design is fundamentally flawed to begin with.

    The Lightning variation of Clench has 2 direct damage effects, so any buff that is made will be x2 for this ability. The problem with this is none of the others do, so Fire and Ice staves remain lackluster decon fodder even if they buff the direct damage enough to make Lightning viable. I suppose they could change the behavior of Lightning clench to not have 2 direct damage effects that will be modified so they can buff it enough to be usable with other morphs and elements.

    The skill itself costs too much (as we have all pointed out many times) and the resource nerfs of Morrowind just make that even worse. The cost reduction kinda makes it more reasonable, but is it enough to make us want to include a master staff and in our builds and remove something else?

    Also for PvP, the "ranged" shock morph does not have the double damage like the Clench morph does, so buffing the direct damage will also essentially only make one morph viable.

    So if you want to run a Lightning Master Staff with Clench then the direct damage might be ok, but any other variation is far less effective than other options. I think we can forget about the developers buffing the damage to the DoT portion of the skill as that would take additional coding that is outside of the scope of what they want to do in this patch. We might get ZoS to buff the direct damage a little more if they are feeling really generous, but I doubt it.


    Edited by kojou on October 13, 2017 5:23PM
    Playing since beta...
  • kojou
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    It seems that they are willing to tweak the numbers on things but not the behaviors, which is the kiss of death for the VDSA Master Staff. The design is fundamentally flawed to begin with.

    The Lightning variation of Clench has 2 direct damage effects, so any buff that is made will be x2 for this ability. The problem with this is none of the others do, so Fire and Ice staves remain lackluster decon fodder even if they buff the direct damage enough to make Lightning viable. I suppose they could change the behavior of Lightning clench to not have 2 direct damage effects that will be modified so they can buff it enough to be usable with other morphs and elements.

    The skill itself costs too much (as we have all pointed out many times) and the resource nerfs of Morrowind just make that even worse. The cost reduction kinda makes it more reasonable, but is it enough to make us want to include a master staff and in our builds and remove something else?

    Also for PvP, the "ranged" shock morph does not have the double damage like the Clench morph does, so buffing the direct damage will also essentially only make one morph viable.

    So if you want to run a Lightning Master Staff with Clench then the direct damage might be ok, but any other variation is far less effective than other options. I think we can forget about the developers buffing the damage to the DoT portion of the skill as that would take additional coding that is outside of the scope of what they want to do in this patch. We might get ZoS to buff the direct damage a little more if they are feeling really generous, but I doubt it.


    Thinking about the staff further... I think this would be the best way to make it viable (using the limited coding resources that ZoS is willing to spend on it).

    Remove the single target direct damage from Shock Clench, and buff the AoE portion of the damage appropriately to make up for it.

    Change the Master staff to buff the direct damage of destructive touch by 4000.

    That is, if we can't change the buff from the direct damage to the DoT (which would be preferred, but doesn't seem like it is going to happen). :smile:
    Playing since beta...
  • Avran_Sylt
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    What I would love to see for the Master Destro Staves:

    Lightning Staff: Keep it the same. (The AoE of Shock Clench makes this great for clustered targets)
    Frost Staff: Slows (or immobilizes) nearby enemies, (copy paste the conditions used for the Shock Clench AoE damage) (no direct damage bonus, but keeps reduced cost)
    Fire Staff: Increases the Damage Over Time of the ability. (no direct damage bonus, but keeps reduced cost)

    Destructive Impact set:
    Reduces the Cost of Destructive Touch by 30% and Augments the skill based on what staff you are using.
    Shock Touch: Deals an additional 2000 Direct Damage
    Frost Touch: Immobilizes nearby enemies.
    Flame Touch: Increases the Damage over Time by 8000 (1,600 per tick, 5 Ticks over 8 seconds)
    Edited by Avran_Sylt on October 13, 2017 6:09PM
  • kojou
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    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
    What I would love to see for the Master Destro Staves:

    Lightning Staff: Keep it the same. (The AoE of Shock Clench makes this great for clustered targets)
    Frost Staff: Slows (or immobilizes) nearby enemies, (copy paste the conditions used for the SAoE damage) (no direct damage bonus, but keeps reduced cost)
    Fire Staff: Increases the Damage Over Time of the ability. (no direct damage bonus, but keeps reduced cost)

    I wouldn't mind seeing some well thought out benefits as well, but keep in mind this is an "old" weapon that comes from "old" content and we are unlikely to get any real developer resources spent on it. They will adjust values, but they are not going to rewrite the behavior of it.
    Playing since beta...
  • Avran_Sylt
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    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
    What I would love to see for the Master Destro Staves:

    Lightning Staff: Keep it the same. (The AoE of Shock Clench makes this great for clustered targets)
    Frost Staff: Slows (or immobilizes) nearby enemies, (copy paste the conditions used for the SAoE damage) (no direct damage bonus, but keeps reduced cost)
    Fire Staff: Increases the Damage Over Time of the ability. (no direct damage bonus, but keeps reduced cost)

    I wouldn't mind seeing some well thought out benefits as well, but keep in mind this is an "old" weapon that comes from "old" content and we are unlikely to get any real developer resources spent on it. They will adjust values, but they are not going to rewrite the behavior of it.

    Things take time. This isn't something that would come out this patch. It'd be something that we could see a couple DLC's down the road.
  • Avran_Sylt
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    What I'd love to see for the vMA 2H:

    Utility focus: Using Critical Charge removes all snares from you. (and standard DoT)

    Damage Focus: Critical Charge deals up to 100% more damage (just a number, actual could be changed) the lower health your target is. (and standard DoT)
    Edited by Avran_Sylt on October 13, 2017 6:17PM
  • Lord_Eomer
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    ZOS has decided to kill VMA weapons with CW patch, Good Luck all farming VMA weapons

    I regret wasted huge time at VMA

    Thanks again ZOS.

    @ZOS_GinaBruno
  • WrathOfInnos
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    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
    What I would love to see for the Master Destro Staves:

    Lightning Staff: Keep it the same. (The AoE of Shock Clench makes this great for clustered targets)
    Frost Staff: Slows (or immobilizes) nearby enemies, (copy paste the conditions used for the Shock Clench AoE damage) (no direct damage bonus, but keeps reduced cost)
    Fire Staff: Increases the Damage Over Time of the ability. (no direct damage bonus, but keeps reduced cost)

    Destructive Impact set:
    Reduces the Cost of Destructive Touch by 30% and Augments the skill based on what staff you are using.
    Shock Touch: Deals an additional 2000 Direct Damage
    Frost Touch: Immobilizes nearby enemies.
    Flame Touch: Increases the Damage over Time by 8000 (1,600 per tick, 5 Ticks over 8 seconds)

    Great suggestion! Goes well with each staff type's strength. Would give a AoE immobilize to NB and Templar tanks (other classes already have this). And may make me consider switching back to inferno staff for single target DPS, while keeping lightning for AoE.

  • Juhasow
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    Juhasow wrote: »
    Ladislao wrote: »
    2000 bonus damage for Destructive Touch is slightly more than 3000 spell damage. Just compare with MSA DW: only 2000 wd/sd after Flurry.
    Plus cost reduction for more than 1000 magicka per cast.
    And don't forget about aoe potencial.

    This was already not bad last week. Now it doesn't need a buff in this direction at all.
    But of course I would look at the rework. Although we are well aware that the ZOS will not go for it.

    No objection to 2H.

    You still think additional 2k sounds strong ?

    I think so. With 2k extra dmg this weapon has the potential to make Reach replacing Force Pulse which would be quite strong.

    Stop dreaming man. It's not even close to force pulse in tems of dmg not even mentioning force pulse also applies other status effects. Force Shock is stronger without Asylum then Destructive Touch with Master staff.
  • Izaki
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    Derra wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Taonnor wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    The master destro is complete crap for PVE and PVP alike.

    People need to test their *** before going nuts over tooltip numbers.

    It needs DoT damage or noone will ever use it aside from the clueless.

    Your adjustment kills the PvP relevance of Master Destro. So please we need good adjustments, which will benefit both (PvE/PvP). Adding the dmg to the DoT part of Master Destro is very bad in PvP, because of HoT heals and Purge.

    PvP needs direct dmg, more direct dmg is better for pvp. I understand that PvE needs DoT dmg, but adjusting all master weapons for PvE is "unfair" against the PvP part. So please stop that *** ... Realy...

    The impact damage from destructive touch is non-existant.

    Master staves are not going to fix that for you.

    It can compete with crushing shock on a regular pvp build in terms of dmg and cost. It´s still not there yet (imo) but not complete crap either.
    I can see builds with the weapon being used.

    Force pulse still hits harder, is cheaper, is non reflectable, can proc various status effects... I don't really see how it can compete. From what I can tell, people generally don't use it for the damage in PVP.

    It works great with frags or assassins will combos as it´s better timed than other CCs. Also having your anytime ability be a CC can be incredibly good.
    You either want to CC on cooldown (or as close as possible) or you only want to CC when you burst - this opens up the possibility of cc on cooldown for some builds.

    Force pulse is an entirely different beast in pvp anyways. If you´re running that you´re most likely in a group with the size that makes the interrupt on shock irrelevant or you´re dueling (against classes where the interrupt is irrelevant).

    The lightning version with clench is the strongest "ranged" aoe in the game aswell.

    Yeah... If I had to chose between spamming Destro Reach with Master's Destro or spamming Force Pulse/Crushing Shock with Asylum Destro, the choice would be pretty quickly made in favor of the latter. I just don't see the logic at all.

    Also, like you said, Reach is used to line up burst. A buff to the DoT damage would thus be much more beneficial in that case for obvious reasons.
    @ Izaki #PCEU
    #FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
    #MoreDPSthanYou
    #Stamblade
  • Derra
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    Izaki wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Taonnor wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    The master destro is complete crap for PVE and PVP alike.

    People need to test their *** before going nuts over tooltip numbers.

    It needs DoT damage or noone will ever use it aside from the clueless.

    Your adjustment kills the PvP relevance of Master Destro. So please we need good adjustments, which will benefit both (PvE/PvP). Adding the dmg to the DoT part of Master Destro is very bad in PvP, because of HoT heals and Purge.

    PvP needs direct dmg, more direct dmg is better for pvp. I understand that PvE needs DoT dmg, but adjusting all master weapons for PvE is "unfair" against the PvP part. So please stop that *** ... Realy...

    The impact damage from destructive touch is non-existant.

    Master staves are not going to fix that for you.

    It can compete with crushing shock on a regular pvp build in terms of dmg and cost. It´s still not there yet (imo) but not complete crap either.
    I can see builds with the weapon being used.

    Force pulse still hits harder, is cheaper, is non reflectable, can proc various status effects... I don't really see how it can compete. From what I can tell, people generally don't use it for the damage in PVP.

    It works great with frags or assassins will combos as it´s better timed than other CCs. Also having your anytime ability be a CC can be incredibly good.
    You either want to CC on cooldown (or as close as possible) or you only want to CC when you burst - this opens up the possibility of cc on cooldown for some builds.

    Force pulse is an entirely different beast in pvp anyways. If you´re running that you´re most likely in a group with the size that makes the interrupt on shock irrelevant or you´re dueling (against classes where the interrupt is irrelevant).

    The lightning version with clench is the strongest "ranged" aoe in the game aswell.

    Yeah... If I had to chose between spamming Destro Reach with Master's Destro or spamming Force Pulse/Crushing Shock with Asylum Destro, the choice would be pretty quickly made in favor of the latter. I just don't see the logic at all.

    Also, like you said, Reach is used to line up burst. A buff to the DoT damage would thus be much more beneficial in that case for obvious reasons.

    With a buff to the dot i wouldn´t use it in pvp. It only competes with my anytimer on sorc. No other skillslot available. As an anytimer the potential to refresh it without benefiting from the dot is too high.
    Would be great for magblade though - but those don´t really need another high potency dot in pvp.

    I´d choose master staff over imperfect asylum any day of the week. Imperfect asylum ist decon fodder. Absolutely hilariously bad.
    Perfect Asylum. Well that´s not even remotely in the same ballpark in terms of effort it takes to get.
    Edited by Derra on October 13, 2017 10:13PM
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • ak_pvp
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    Crit charge now stuns and deals 2k extra damage. Buff'd. But not nearly as useful as, well... Everything else.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • TheYKcid
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    In the latest ESO Live, Gina announced that the damage of Merciless Charge is getting buffed in Monday's PTS update.

    We'll have to see the magnitude of the change to decide whether it'll be viable, but for now I'm really hyped that ZOS listened!
    PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
    Kalazar ChalhoubRedguard Nord Stamplar
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden
  • Izaki
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Crit charge now stuns and deals 2k extra damage. Buff'd. But not nearly as useful as, well... Everything else.

    What? They just said they were buffing the DoT on ESO Live iirc.
    @ Izaki #PCEU
    #FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
    #MoreDPSthanYou
    #Stamblade
  • Derra
    Derra
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    Derra wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Taonnor wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    The master destro is complete crap for PVE and PVP alike.

    People need to test their *** before going nuts over tooltip numbers.

    It needs DoT damage or noone will ever use it aside from the clueless.

    Your adjustment kills the PvP relevance of Master Destro. So please we need good adjustments, which will benefit both (PvE/PvP). Adding the dmg to the DoT part of Master Destro is very bad in PvP, because of HoT heals and Purge.

    PvP needs direct dmg, more direct dmg is better for pvp. I understand that PvE needs DoT dmg, but adjusting all master weapons for PvE is "unfair" against the PvP part. So please stop that *** ... Realy...

    The impact damage from destructive touch is non-existant.

    Master staves are not going to fix that for you.

    It can compete with crushing shock on a regular pvp build in terms of dmg and cost. It´s still not there yet (imo) but not complete crap either.
    I can see builds with the weapon being used.

    Force pulse still hits harder, is cheaper, is non reflectable, can proc various status effects... I don't really see how it can compete. From what I can tell, people generally don't use it for the damage in PVP.

    It works great with frags or assassins will combos as it´s better timed than other CCs. Also having your anytime ability be a CC can be incredibly good.
    You either want to CC on cooldown (or as close as possible) or you only want to CC when you burst - this opens up the possibility of cc on cooldown for some builds.

    Force pulse is an entirely different beast in pvp anyways. If you´re running that you´re most likely in a group with the size that makes the interrupt on shock irrelevant or you´re dueling (against classes where the interrupt is irrelevant).

    The lightning version with clench is the strongest "ranged" aoe in the game aswell.

    I bet you'll never use either the staff or the 2H

    @Joy_Division magsorc meta is prettymuch 50% masterstaff 50% runeprison builds now. I´m using masterstaves on templar, NB, sorc and will on my warden aswell.
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Derra wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Taonnor wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    The master destro is complete crap for PVE and PVP alike.

    People need to test their *** before going nuts over tooltip numbers.

    It needs DoT damage or noone will ever use it aside from the clueless.

    Your adjustment kills the PvP relevance of Master Destro. So please we need good adjustments, which will benefit both (PvE/PvP). Adding the dmg to the DoT part of Master Destro is very bad in PvP, because of HoT heals and Purge.

    PvP needs direct dmg, more direct dmg is better for pvp. I understand that PvE needs DoT dmg, but adjusting all master weapons for PvE is "unfair" against the PvP part. So please stop that *** ... Realy...

    The impact damage from destructive touch is non-existant.

    Master staves are not going to fix that for you.

    It can compete with crushing shock on a regular pvp build in terms of dmg and cost. It´s still not there yet (imo) but not complete crap either.
    I can see builds with the weapon being used.

    Force pulse still hits harder, is cheaper, is non reflectable, can proc various status effects... I don't really see how it can compete. From what I can tell, people generally don't use it for the damage in PVP.

    It works great with frags or assassins will combos as it´s better timed than other CCs. Also having your anytime ability be a CC can be incredibly good.
    You either want to CC on cooldown (or as close as possible) or you only want to CC when you burst - this opens up the possibility of cc on cooldown for some builds.

    Force pulse is an entirely different beast in pvp anyways. If you´re running that you´re most likely in a group with the size that makes the interrupt on shock irrelevant or you´re dueling (against classes where the interrupt is irrelevant).

    The lightning version with clench is the strongest "ranged" aoe in the game aswell.

    I bet you'll never use either the staff or the 2H

    @Joy_Division magsorc meta is prettymuch 50% masterstaff 50% runeprison builds now. I´m using masterstaves on templar, NB, sorc and will on my warden aswell.

    People who like these staffs act like they can't use the Destructive Reach spell without using a Master's staff. You could alternatively use a different staff that grants an armor set bonus that amps all of you spells or instead wear one piece Domihaus that gives 1000 max mag and 1000 max stam.
  • Izaki
    Izaki
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    The Maelstrom 2H weapon is pretty lackluster. The DoT ticks at about 600 tops against light armor targets.
    Its not even close in efficiency to the Asylum 2H.
    @ Izaki #PCEU
    #FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
    #MoreDPSthanYou
    #Stamblade
  • Derra
    Derra
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Derra wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Taonnor wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    The master destro is complete crap for PVE and PVP alike.

    People need to test their *** before going nuts over tooltip numbers.

    It needs DoT damage or noone will ever use it aside from the clueless.

    Your adjustment kills the PvP relevance of Master Destro. So please we need good adjustments, which will benefit both (PvE/PvP). Adding the dmg to the DoT part of Master Destro is very bad in PvP, because of HoT heals and Purge.

    PvP needs direct dmg, more direct dmg is better for pvp. I understand that PvE needs DoT dmg, but adjusting all master weapons for PvE is "unfair" against the PvP part. So please stop that *** ... Realy...

    The impact damage from destructive touch is non-existant.

    Master staves are not going to fix that for you.

    It can compete with crushing shock on a regular pvp build in terms of dmg and cost. It´s still not there yet (imo) but not complete crap either.
    I can see builds with the weapon being used.

    Force pulse still hits harder, is cheaper, is non reflectable, can proc various status effects... I don't really see how it can compete. From what I can tell, people generally don't use it for the damage in PVP.

    It works great with frags or assassins will combos as it´s better timed than other CCs. Also having your anytime ability be a CC can be incredibly good.
    You either want to CC on cooldown (or as close as possible) or you only want to CC when you burst - this opens up the possibility of cc on cooldown for some builds.

    Force pulse is an entirely different beast in pvp anyways. If you´re running that you´re most likely in a group with the size that makes the interrupt on shock irrelevant or you´re dueling (against classes where the interrupt is irrelevant).

    The lightning version with clench is the strongest "ranged" aoe in the game aswell.

    I bet you'll never use either the staff or the 2H

    @Joy_Division magsorc meta is prettymuch 50% masterstaff 50% runeprison builds now. I´m using masterstaves on templar, NB, sorc and will on my warden aswell.

    People who like these staffs act like they can't use the Destructive Reach spell without using a Master's staff. You could alternatively use a different staff that grants an armor set bonus that amps all of you spells or instead wear one piece Domihaus that gives 1000 max mag and 1000 max stam.

    Well you can´t use it as a spamable without the staff. Simply too expensive.
    Most ppl either use 5amber/shackle 5 lich/riposte 1 domi 1 master. Not much that compares to that especially with magsorc not utilizing skoria well.
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • f047ys3v3n
    f047ys3v3n
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Izaki wrote: »
    So now that new weapons are being introduced and that a number of them are completely underwhelming, it is a good time to bring the lackluster weapons (or more accurately the decon/vendor/research weapons) up to par and to make them the rewards they are supposed to be. Now there are already a number of threads that give some very good insight as to which weapons are worth it and those that aren't. In this thread we won't be talking about any of the Asylum weapons, since those deserve threads of their own (you can write 500 page novels about how terrible some of those weapons are and still not mention everything that needs to be mentioned).

    Now obviously, all these weapons don't have to be Best in Slot for every single situation. But once you complete something like Veteran Maelstrom Arena for the first time, which is a huge personal achievement, you expect to come out with a weapon that you can be proud to use. However, currently, only 2 Maelstrom weapons are actually worth slotting over a set bonus: the Maelstrom's Bow and the Maelstrom's Destruction Staff, both of which are very strong "back bar" weapons. There are 2 weapons in particular however, that are extremely lackluster in their current state on the Clockwork City PTS: the Maelstrom's Two-Handed weapons and the Master's Destruction Staff. They are so bad, that they stand out from the lot. The reason why I'm taking these 2 weapons is because all they need is adjustment to their set bonus value (not an entire rework like the Asylum Dual Wield).

    Let's look at these weapons one by one and see where everything goes wrong and then study the easiest solutions to these problems.

    The Master's Destruction Staff:
    Destructive Impact increases the initial damage of Destructive Touch abilities by 1500 and reduces it's cost by
    This results in a DPS increase of... 187.5 DPS. Yep. That's nothing at all. An extra spell damage bonus from completing a 4 piece set (like Infallible Aether or Moondancer or Master Architect) will bring more overall benefit since it increases all your damage and scales with the DPS you do: the more DPS you put out, the more beneficial the spell damage bonus becomes and the better it becomes over a proc (much like Molag Kena vs Ilambris or Grothdarr).
    What's the easiest thing to do to make this weapon viable (yes we aren't even talking about BiS yet, we are only trying to make this thing viable, aka worth slotting)? Increase the DoT damage, just like with the Stinging Slashes set bonus. Now a 1500 increase per tick might be too high and let's not forget the cost reduction which is a great benefit. My suggestion? Scrap the initial damage increase completely, and instead increase every tick of Destructive Touch abilities by 1000. Keep the cost reduction. Now it will make this weapon a competitive choice for the classes using Destructive Touch, although it doesn't even compare with the Maelstrom's or Asylum's Destruction Staff which either increase your DPS by as much as 4k on heavy attack builds for the former or provide great utility to the group for the latter. But still, it makes this weapon viable.

    Maestrom's Two-Handed weapons:
    Merciless Charge applies a damage over time effect of ... on each use of Critical Charge abilities.
    Needless to say, when the weapon had a 189 weapon damage attached, it was great. Now however... The DoT ticks for less than 1000 per tick outside of Cyrodiil without any modifiers from CP. Let's not fool ourselves, no one uses Critical Charge in PvE. So this translates to less than 500 damage per tick before mitigation values are applied. What's worse? It used to be able to critically strike. Now that its a set bonus, it can no longer do that. So how on earth is anyone going to slot this weapon over anything else? What needs to be done? Double the amount of damage cause by the DoT. That's the easiest solution. It will mean that the DoT will tick for a total of about 5000 damage inside of Cyrodiil without any CP boosts or mitigation values. Now that's a good DoT that is worth using in some situations over a stat bonus. Now obviously doubling the DoT damage is a bit too radical, but I would say that an increase of 50-75% of the DoT damage value is definitely needed to keep this weapon in use.

    @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel

    Please look into this, these weapons are easily rendered useful simply by tweaking the values... And its needed. Badly.

    I ca
    Izaki wrote: »
    So now that new weapons are being introduced and that a number of them are completely underwhelming, it is a good time to bring the lackluster weapons (or more accurately the decon/vendor/research weapons) up to par and to make them the rewards they are supposed to be. Now there are already a number of threads that give some very good insight as to which weapons are worth it and those that aren't. In this thread we won't be talking about any of the Asylum weapons, since those deserve threads of their own (you can write 500 page novels about how terrible some of those weapons are and still not mention everything that needs to be mentioned).

    Now obviously, all these weapons don't have to be Best in Slot for every single situation. But once you complete something like Veteran Maelstrom Arena for the first time, which is a huge personal achievement, you expect to come out with a weapon that you can be proud to use. However, currently, only 2 Maelstrom weapons are actually worth slotting over a set bonus: the Maelstrom's Bow and the Maelstrom's Destruction Staff, both of which are very strong "back bar" weapons. There are 2 weapons in particular however, that are extremely lackluster in their current state on the Clockwork City PTS: the Maelstrom's Two-Handed weapons and the Master's Destruction Staff. They are so bad, that they stand out from the lot. The reason why I'm taking these 2 weapons is because all they need is adjustment to their set bonus value (not an entire rework like the Asylum Dual Wield).

    Let's look at these weapons one by one and see where everything goes wrong and then study the easiest solutions to these problems.

    The Master's Destruction Staff:
    Destructive Impact increases the initial damage of Destructive Touch abilities by 1500 and reduces it's cost by
    This results in a DPS increase of... 187.5 DPS. Yep. That's nothing at all. An extra spell damage bonus from completing a 4 piece set (like Infallible Aether or Moondancer or Master Architect) will bring more overall benefit since it increases all your damage and scales with the DPS you do: the more DPS you put out, the more beneficial the spell damage bonus becomes and the better it becomes over a proc (much like Molag Kena vs Ilambris or Grothdarr).
    What's the easiest thing to do to make this weapon viable (yes we aren't even talking about BiS yet, we are only trying to make this thing viable, aka worth slotting)? Increase the DoT damage, just like with the Stinging Slashes set bonus. Now a 1500 increase per tick might be too high and let's not forget the cost reduction which is a great benefit. My suggestion? Scrap the initial damage increase completely, and instead increase every tick of Destructive Touch abilities by 1000. Keep the cost reduction. Now it will make this weapon a competitive choice for the classes using Destructive Touch, although it doesn't even compare with the Maelstrom's or Asylum's Destruction Staff which either increase your DPS by as much as 4k on heavy attack builds for the former or provide great utility to the group for the latter. But still, it makes this weapon viable.

    Maestrom's Two-Handed weapons:
    Merciless Charge applies a damage over time effect of ... on each use of Critical Charge abilities.
    Needless to say, when the weapon had a 189 weapon damage attached, it was great. Now however... The DoT ticks for less than 1000 per tick outside of Cyrodiil without any modifiers from CP. Let's not fool ourselves, no one uses Critical Charge in PvE. So this translates to less than 500 damage per tick before mitigation values are applied. What's worse? It used to be able to critically strike. Now that its a set bonus, it can no longer do that. So how on earth is anyone going to slot this weapon over anything else? What needs to be done? Double the amount of damage cause by the DoT. That's the easiest solution. It will mean that the DoT will tick for a total of about 5000 damage inside of Cyrodiil without any CP boosts or mitigation values. Now that's a good DoT that is worth using in some situations over a stat bonus. Now obviously doubling the DoT damage is a bit too radical, but I would say that an increase of 50-75% of the DoT damage value is definitely needed to keep this weapon in use.

    @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel

    Please look into this, these weapons are easily rendered useful simply by tweaking the values... And its needed. Badly.

    I *** caned all my vMA and Masters weapons on any toon I care about except for the resto staff on my back bar in PVP. Of course, ZOS won't understand any of this because they only trust their stupid metrics and caning them on the toons I care about just means that they are now spare gold weapons sitting on toons that I don't play or only do casual things on so ZOS probably thinks that I like them just as much as I used to just like ZOS thought they needed to nerf the lover stone back in the day because everybody was using it (it is the first stone encountered.)

    My take always:
    1) Zos will never allow any ability to be buffed to the point that such a buff actually makes up for the loss of a general set peice buff that benefits all abilities.

    2) Zos is enamored with their "internal metrics" and thinks using it makes up for actual first person understanding of min maxing decisions. They are wrong because a myriad of complicating factors such as toons players don't play competitively, players who are ignorant, suck, don't care about playing well, or like the looks of a particular item, leaves them with data that is almost completely noise.

    Almost all of the one piece weapon sets now suck. It is as simple as that. Perhaps it will be addressed but I kind of doubt it. ZOS has a lot more basic things screwing up their game than set itemization such as terrible heavy/light attack scaling and animations that are off timed. Why they wen't out of their way to wreck all these items is the better question especially since most wern't that strong anyway.
    I am mostly pleased with the current state of ESO. Please do continue to ban cheaters though and you guys have to find out who is duping gold and how because the economy is currently non-functional.
  • grannas211
    grannas211
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Derra wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    Taonnor wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    The master destro is complete crap for PVE and PVP alike.

    People need to test their *** before going nuts over tooltip numbers.

    It needs DoT damage or noone will ever use it aside from the clueless.

    Your adjustment kills the PvP relevance of Master Destro. So please we need good adjustments, which will benefit both (PvE/PvP). Adding the dmg to the DoT part of Master Destro is very bad in PvP, because of HoT heals and Purge.

    PvP needs direct dmg, more direct dmg is better for pvp. I understand that PvE needs DoT dmg, but adjusting all master weapons for PvE is "unfair" against the PvP part. So please stop that *** ... Realy...

    The impact damage from destructive touch is non-existant.

    Master staves are not going to fix that for you.

    It can compete with crushing shock on a regular pvp build in terms of dmg and cost. It´s still not there yet (imo) but not complete crap either.
    I can see builds with the weapon being used.

    Force pulse still hits harder, is cheaper, is non reflectable, can proc various status effects... I don't really see how it can compete. From what I can tell, people generally don't use it for the damage in PVP.

    It works great with frags or assassins will combos as it´s better timed than other CCs. Also having your anytime ability be a CC can be incredibly good.
    You either want to CC on cooldown (or as close as possible) or you only want to CC when you burst - this opens up the possibility of cc on cooldown for some builds.

    Force pulse is an entirely different beast in pvp anyways. If you´re running that you´re most likely in a group with the size that makes the interrupt on shock irrelevant or you´re dueling (against classes where the interrupt is irrelevant).

    The lightning version with clench is the strongest "ranged" aoe in the game aswell.

    I bet you'll never use either the staff or the 2H

    @Joy_Division magsorc meta is prettymuch 50% masterstaff 50% runeprison builds now. I´m using masterstaves on templar, NB, sorc and will on my warden aswell.

    People who like these staffs act like they can't use the Destructive Reach spell without using a Master's staff. You could alternatively use a different staff that grants an armor set bonus that amps all of you spells or instead wear one piece Domihaus that gives 1000 max mag and 1000 max stam.

    Well you can´t use it as a spamable without the staff. Simply too expensive.
    Most ppl either use 5amber/shackle 5 lich/riposte 1 domi 1 master. Not much that compares to that especially with magsorc not utilizing skoria well.

    nevermind was wrong. Master destro is legit
    Edited by grannas211 on December 24, 2017 5:56AM
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