Earthgore & Destro ult = The zergs crutch

Irylia

Earthgore: The zerglings bandaid to making mistakes and wiping to less.

Destro ult: 1. press R with the other 7 destro monkeys you run in your 16+ man raid 2. Run around because you don’t know how to kill someone otherwise.

Destro ults and earthgore should both be tweaked or removed.

I’ve previously offered a change to destro making it more small scale or utility based.
Inferno: single target fireball that does x damage and burns the target for 8 seconds increasing your damage by 8% to the single target:
Lightning: conal disorient stun that deals x damage (mag db)
Ice: aoe frost clenches that ripple outwards snaring the enemy and dealing damage. Every ice ripple to hit the same enemy after the first deals % less than the last. (Ic ice atro boss)

Earthgore should cap on how many it can heal and for how much. Or simply removed for a new effect.

It’s far too easy to slot multiple earthgores in a large raid and completely negate outplays by other raids and or groups with significantly less numbers.

Yes you can bait out the proc. Yes I know don’t stand in the destro. Yes I know l2p.

The current meta is just unhealthy gameplay that is continuing to empower the many.

Next up: shuffle snare immunity and heavy, encase you didn’t know.

Minno

Irylia wrote: »

Earthgore: The zerglings bandaid to making mistakes and wiping to less.

Destro ult: 1. press R with the other 7 destro monkeys you run in your 16+ man raid 2. Run around because you don’t know how to kill someone otherwise.

Destro ults and earthgore should both be tweaked or removed.

I’ve previously offered a change to destro making it more small scale or utility based.
Inferno: single target fireball that does x damage and burns the target for 8 seconds increasing your damage by 8% to the single target:
Lightning: conal disorient stun that deals x damage (mag db)
Ice: aoe frost clenches that ripple outwards snaring the enemy and dealing damage. Every ice ripple to hit the same enemy after the first deals % less than the last. (Ic ice atro boss)

Earthgore should cap on how many it can heal and for how much. Or simply removed for a new effect.

It’s far too easy to slot multiple earthgores in a large raid and completely negate outplays by other raids and or groups with significantly less numbers.

Yes you can bait out the proc. Yes I know don’t stand in the destro. Yes I know l2p.

The current meta is just unhealthy gameplay that is continuing to empower the many.

Next up: shuffle snare immunity and heavy, encase you didn’t know.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pp5xGLj1RME

Waffennacht

My suggestion would be to avoid combat with groups more than 4 players unless you are also in a large group with similar capabilities.

This is what I do when I see a Zerg:

Run!

Lol then I usually hide and continue what I was doing once they move on, very few zergs actually chase

Mihael

Waffennacht wrote: »

few zergs actually chase

You sir are a lucky man

Waffennacht

Mihael wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

few zergs actually chase

You sir are a lucky man

Really? Hrm, it's actually pretty common for me to pass untouched by most Zergs, I however, only roam alone and I always thought the hassle of giving chase to some random would mess up their plans...

Now I kinda feel bad if they're chasing down poor people

casparian

Waffennacht wrote: »

Mihael wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

few zergs actually chase

You sir are a lucky man

Really? Hrm, it's actually pretty common for me to pass untouched by most Zergs, I however, only roam alone and I always thought the hassle of giving chase to some random would mess up their plans...

Now I kinda feel bad if they're chasing down poor people

As a medium armor stamplar, I am never not chased. They see me shuffling off all their snares and purging off all their defiles and it just makes them so angry they turn into wildebeests.

Adenoma

Chiming in here too to say that my duo always is chased down.

Edit: in Sotha Sil we've even gotten a guild to leave a siege at Chalman, lose most of the group on the way to us, drop an FC, and continue chasing. Not sure why they'd do that.

Waffennacht

Adenoma wrote: »

Chiming in here too to say that my duo always is chased down.

Well I can see a duo being chased down (if they're 660) because some duos can be incredibly dangerous.

And seeing as you're on the forums, I'm guessing you're dangerous

Adenoma

I only go to Cyrodiil to RP. Sometimes folks try to disrupt that.

WuffyCerulei

NBrookus

Waffennacht wrote: »

very few zergs actually chase

Next you'll be saying there's no salty whispers on XBox either.

Waffennacht

NBrookus wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

very few zergs actually chase

Next you'll be saying there's no salty whispers on XBox either.

Lmao, hey a blue Zerg just let me finish some Cropsford quests. Maybe I just look the part of harmless

Thogard

This game's balancing team seems intent on destroying any abilities or strategies that allow a small group to beat a large group. In their minds, whoever has more people should win. Efficiently using certain abilities combined with good positioning means that those abilities need to be nerfed...

which is ***.

Soon we'll see full caster extend groups because that will be the only way to 8vX a zergball. but that'll really suck for any current stam player if they aren't playing a peel tank.

Jade1986

Thogard wrote: »

This game's balancing team seems intent on destroying any abilities or strategies that allow a small group to beat a large group. In their minds, whoever has more people should win. Efficiently using certain abilities combined with good positioning means that those abilities need to be nerfed...

which is ***.

Soon we'll see full caster extend groups because that will be the only way to 8vX a zergball. but that'll really suck for any current stam player if they aren't playing a peel tank.

I was thinking that today, what on earth am i supposed to do against that zerg ball as a stam dk? Our aoe abilities are lacking at best. I mean I guess we could get 8 people together and suicide into them with dawnbreaker. Mayb that would work.

Biro123

This is not a new thing.

Avoid them, spread out, don't clump up with others. They always go for the highest concentration of opponents to make the most of their aoes.

Morgul667

Those destro earthgore meta are no fun

I mean where s the fun or the skill?

yet we complain on proc set and zos implements new “noskills” combo

ak_pvp

I hope they cut outside sources of healing by 50% in PvP. That way potatoes will have to try to fend for themselves.

Adjust achievements accordingly..

Irylia

Biro123 wrote: »

This is not a new thing.

Avoid them, spread out, don't clump up with others. They always go for the highest concentration of opponents to make the most of their aoes.

Of all people I don't think we needed tips on how to perform in pvp. I'm stating what is currently over performing.

Alpheu5

You're supposed to sheathe your weapon and /sit5 in those scenarios.

Lexxypwns

@Irylia the fact you think groups are dropping 8 destroys at a time shows your lack of knowledge tbh

GreenSoup2HoT

Lexxypwns wrote: »

@Irylia the fact you think groups are dropping 8 destroys at a time shows your lack of knowledge tbh

That players lack of knowledge doesn't refute the fact eots and earthgore are god tier currently in the pvp meta be it small/medium/large coordinated or pug groups. I'm not going to explain why these two things are god tier because it should be obvious.

I'm pretty excited to see the EotS changes coming next pts phase but i hope i won't be disappointed and see something like "-5% damage".

Earthgore is not on the level of EotS when it comes to needing re-balancing. All i think that could be changed is when it proc's. Make it when allies are under 75% health. This means earthgore proc's can be baited.

Irylia

Lexxypwns wrote: »

@Irylia the fact you think groups are dropping 8 destroys at a time shows your lack of knowledge tbh

Shows my lack of knowledge. Good one.

Irylia

Lexxypwns wrote: »

@Irylia the fact you think groups are dropping 8 destroys at a time shows your lack of knowledge tbh

Shows my lack of knowledge. Good one.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

@Irylia the fact you think groups are dropping 8 destroys at a time shows your lack of knowledge tbh

That players lack of knowledge doesn't refute the fact eots and earthgore are god tier currently in the pvp meta be it small/medium/large coordinated or pug groups. I'm not going to explain why these two things are god tier because it should be obvious.

I'm pretty excited to see the EotS changes coming next pts phase but i hope i won't be disappointed and see something like "-5% damage".

Earthgore is not on the level of EotS when it comes to needing re-balancing. All i think that could be changed is when it proc's. Make it when allies are under 75% health. This means earthgore proc's can be baited.

I completely disagree with you. Eots nerfs will hurt smaller groups more than larger groups. As a 16m the only thing that can really kill us is a well timed 2-3 storms negate and siege. This is assuming our earthgore doesn't proc/ we don't move / we don't make a mistake. I mean sure we can get completely zerged down by wave after wave of enemy group or make a simple error in our play but that's just pvp. Nerfing Eots will make us nearly untouchable (by smaller groups) whilst not making any difference to how we function as a group.
People seem to forget all the tools employed by organised groups are designed to fight outnumbered situations. Our raid specialises in fighting against 3-4x our number. That's how we gear and build.

If you aren't using destro ulti outnumbered in a small largescale group (4-8 ppl looking to fight the pug zerg / enemy raids) you are doing something wrong tbh (and the people dieing are doing something even worse)

I completely agree about earthgore being over tuned and not necessary. However in order to use earthgore (as dps) in groups like ours you are substituting approximately 10% group dps. In a 16m we currently run 4-5 earthgore. Sure you find groups running 16 of them but tbh I don't really find those groups challenging to kill.

To those saying running large groups is easy mode I'd love to see a video of your successes with 16+ fighting 40 or more players. Note running in your own factions zerg vs them doesn't count.

Derra

Waffennacht wrote: »

Mihael wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

few zergs actually chase

You sir are a lucky man

Really? Hrm, it's actually pretty common for me to pass untouched by most Zergs, I however, only roam alone and I always thought the hassle of giving chase to some random would mess up their plans...

Now I kinda feel bad if they're chasing down poor people

The bigger problem is actually large pug groups for the type of play you discribe.

Mappins for players in your party (every 24 not only crown) are disastrous. It happens so often that i kite 2 or 3 players to the middle of nowhere just to have 10 more to showup with rapids on horses because the idiotic mappin grp design makes positioning completely irrelevant on a "larger" scale.

WillhelmBlack

casparian wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Mihael wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

few zergs actually chase

You sir are a lucky man

Really? Hrm, it's actually pretty common for me to pass untouched by most Zergs, I however, only roam alone and I always thought the hassle of giving chase to some random would mess up their plans...

Now I kinda feel bad if they're chasing down poor people

As a medium armor stamplar, I am never not chased. They see me shuffling off all their snares and purging off all their defiles and it just makes them so angry they turn into wildebeests.

I get that too on Stamplar. It just infuriates them.

WillhelmBlack

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

@Irylia the fact you think groups are dropping 8 destroys at a time shows your lack of knowledge tbh

That players lack of knowledge doesn't refute the fact eots and earthgore are god tier currently in the pvp meta be it small/medium/large coordinated or pug groups. I'm not going to explain why these two things are god tier because it should be obvious.

I'm pretty excited to see the EotS changes coming next pts phase but i hope i won't be disappointed and see something like "-5% damage".

Earthgore is not on the level of EotS when it comes to needing re-balancing. All i think that could be changed is when it proc's. Make it when allies are under 75% health. This means earthgore proc's can be baited.

I completely disagree with you. Eots nerfs will hurt smaller groups more than larger groups. As a 16m the only thing that can really kill us is a well timed 2-3 storms negate and siege. This is assuming our earthgore doesn't proc/ we don't move / we don't make a mistake. I mean sure we can get completely zerged down by wave after wave of enemy group or make a simple error in our play but that's just pvp. Nerfing Eots will make us nearly untouchable (by smaller groups) whilst not making any difference to how we function as a group.
People seem to forget all the tools employed by organised groups are designed to fight outnumbered situations. Our raid specialises in fighting against 3-4x our number. That's how we gear and build.

If you aren't using destro ulti outnumbered in a small largescale group (4-8 ppl looking to fight the pug zerg / enemy raids) you are doing something wrong tbh (and the people dieing are doing something even worse)

I completely agree about earthgore being over tuned and not necessary. However in order to use earthgore (as dps) in groups like ours you are substituting approximately 10% group dps. In a 16m we currently run 4-5 earthgore. Sure you find groups running 16 of them but tbh I don't really find those groups challenging to kill.

To those saying running large groups is easy mode I'd love to see a video of your successes with 16+ fighting 40 or more players. Note running in your own factions zerg vs them doesn't count.

Our guild is effective without destro ult. We pick out players using coordination in Teamspeak. We wipe many larger destro/proxy raids, still doesn't mean destro ultimate isn't overpowered. It's THAT overpowered it's all these tards can do, that and spam Healing Springs and Vamp Drain. Take away Destro ult and there'd be less of these A-holes lagging out the servers.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

@Irylia the fact you think groups are dropping 8 destroys at a time shows your lack of knowledge tbh

That players lack of knowledge doesn't refute the fact eots and earthgore are god tier currently in the pvp meta be it small/medium/large coordinated or pug groups. I'm not going to explain why these two things are god tier because it should be obvious.

I'm pretty excited to see the EotS changes coming next pts phase but i hope i won't be disappointed and see something like "-5% damage".

Earthgore is not on the level of EotS when it comes to needing re-balancing. All i think that could be changed is when it proc's. Make it when allies are under 75% health. This means earthgore proc's can be baited.

I completely disagree with you. Eots nerfs will hurt smaller groups more than larger groups. As a 16m the only thing that can really kill us is a well timed 2-3 storms negate and siege. This is assuming our earthgore doesn't proc/ we don't move / we don't make a mistake. I mean sure we can get completely zerged down by wave after wave of enemy group or make a simple error in our play but that's just pvp. Nerfing Eots will make us nearly untouchable (by smaller groups) whilst not making any difference to how we function as a group.
People seem to forget all the tools employed by organised groups are designed to fight outnumbered situations. Our raid specialises in fighting against 3-4x our number. That's how we gear and build.

If you aren't using destro ulti outnumbered in a small largescale group (4-8 ppl looking to fight the pug zerg / enemy raids) you are doing something wrong tbh (and the people dieing are doing something even worse)

I completely agree about earthgore being over tuned and not necessary. However in order to use earthgore (as dps) in groups like ours you are substituting approximately 10% group dps. In a 16m we currently run 4-5 earthgore. Sure you find groups running 16 of them but tbh I don't really find those groups challenging to kill.

To those saying running large groups is easy mode I'd love to see a video of your successes with 16+ fighting 40 or more players. Note running in your own factions zerg vs them doesn't count.

Our guild is effective without destro ult. We pick out players using coordination in Teamspeak. We wipe many larger destro/proxy raids, still doesn't mean destro ultimate isn't overpowered. It's THAT overpowered it's all these tards can do, that and spam Healing Springs and Vamp Drain. Take away Destro ult and there'd be less of these A-holes lagging out the servers.

Then you aren't fighting the numbers we're fighting. Tbh based on your comments regarding the skills they are using it sounds like you are fighting a pug group.

Perhaps you can provide a video as reference

Merlin13KAGL

There needs to be skills that actually break up zergs - ones that actually require them to dissipate into smaller batches, not just heal/damage their way through it.

As recommended long, long ago skills having damage output based on

1. The number of people you're actually hitting
2. The number of people in your current zergball
3. Possibly cost changes based on either of the above

would potentially cut down on some of this. There is little downside to zerging. There is little benefit to small scale trying to counter. Buffs/debuffs could help level the playing field.

As it stands, I don't anticipate Earthgore staying in its current form much longer.

The ultimate fix for all of this is for gear to have a separate effect when in Cyro than when not, and separate (no cost) CP loadout for the same.

They could then balance gear sets, skills, and CP's more of less independently and many of these issues would lessen, if not go away entirely.

WillhelmBlack

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

@Irylia the fact you think groups are dropping 8 destroys at a time shows your lack of knowledge tbh

That players lack of knowledge doesn't refute the fact eots and earthgore are god tier currently in the pvp meta be it small/medium/large coordinated or pug groups. I'm not going to explain why these two things are god tier because it should be obvious.

I'm pretty excited to see the EotS changes coming next pts phase but i hope i won't be disappointed and see something like "-5% damage".

Earthgore is not on the level of EotS when it comes to needing re-balancing. All i think that could be changed is when it proc's. Make it when allies are under 75% health. This means earthgore proc's can be baited.

I completely disagree with you. Eots nerfs will hurt smaller groups more than larger groups. As a 16m the only thing that can really kill us is a well timed 2-3 storms negate and siege. This is assuming our earthgore doesn't proc/ we don't move / we don't make a mistake. I mean sure we can get completely zerged down by wave after wave of enemy group or make a simple error in our play but that's just pvp. Nerfing Eots will make us nearly untouchable (by smaller groups) whilst not making any difference to how we function as a group.
People seem to forget all the tools employed by organised groups are designed to fight outnumbered situations. Our raid specialises in fighting against 3-4x our number. That's how we gear and build.

If you aren't using destro ulti outnumbered in a small largescale group (4-8 ppl looking to fight the pug zerg / enemy raids) you are doing something wrong tbh (and the people dieing are doing something even worse)

I completely agree about earthgore being over tuned and not necessary. However in order to use earthgore (as dps) in groups like ours you are substituting approximately 10% group dps. In a 16m we currently run 4-5 earthgore. Sure you find groups running 16 of them but tbh I don't really find those groups challenging to kill.

To those saying running large groups is easy mode I'd love to see a video of your successes with 16+ fighting 40 or more players. Note running in your own factions zerg vs them doesn't count.

Our guild is effective without destro ult. We pick out players using coordination in Teamspeak. We wipe many larger destro/proxy raids, still doesn't mean destro ultimate isn't overpowered. It's THAT overpowered it's all these tards can do, that and spam Healing Springs and Vamp Drain. Take away Destro ult and there'd be less of these A-holes lagging out the servers.

Then you aren't fighting the numbers we're fighting. Tbh based on your comments regarding the skills they are using it sounds like you are fighting a pug group.

Perhaps you can provide a video as reference

Pug groups that all wear the same tabard? I don't think so. And no we're not fighting the same number as Zerg Squad do as they actively encourage larger numbers(zergs) to come and attack them. That's what you do, take objectives or scrolls, farm AP, I'm not sure what the point is in doing it as you can't actually use the AP for anything but that's none of my business. We play the game as intended, it's two completely different playstyles. Your way absolutely destroys PvP for everyone else though, our's doesn't.

Some of the Zerg Squad guys(yes the guys that sometimes run in 16+ men groups) though, do even have the cheek to criticise our playstyle saying it's cancerous and smallscale is impossible because of people like me and our max group size of about 10! Which is hilarious since I see no one in zone complaining about small to medium size skirmishes causing massive lag, making the game unplayable and logging off or to a different server.

I'd like to see a recent video of your raid not using Destro ulti though.

Destro ultimate is an overpowered AoE that should never have been introduced. It's useless against any raid with 2 or more good healers and is only useful for raids to kill large amounts of players, easily. If it stunned or silenced and did less damage I could see it performing better against large raids but we have Negate for that and when combined with killing the healers, THAT is what kills raids. Which brings up Earthgore and its ability to soak them up. Just another zerging, large-scale, whatever you want to call it crutch.

WillhelmBlack

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

There needs to be skills that actually break up zergs - ones that actually require them to dissipate into smaller batches, not just heal/damage their way through it.

As recommended long, long ago skills having damage output based on

1. The number of people you're actually hitting
2. The number of people in your current zergball
3. Possibly cost changes based on either of the above

would potentially cut down on some of this. There is little downside to zerging. There is little benefit to small scale trying to counter. Buffs/debuffs could help level the playing field.

As it stands, I don't anticipate Earthgore staying in its current form much longer.

The ultimate fix for all of this is for gear to have a separate effect when in Cyro than when not, and separate (no cost) CP loadout for the same.

They could then balance gear sets, skills, and CP's more of less independently and many of these issues would lessen, if not go away entirely.

Any truly balanced PvP game should have PvP only sets. A few you can choose from which would make class balancing much, much easier. I don't think it's in Zenimax's interests for that though.