Daedric Tomb Change

WrathOfInnos

I haven't seen any discussion about this change. Although it's not directly a nerf, I have found the new aiming to be much more difficult, especially on a moving or distant target. Depending on ground geometry, it is often impossible to hit a target with mines at all (if they are on a high point, you cannot see the ground directly behind them). For those unfamiliar, this is the change on the PTS:



I would like to propose a few alternatives. Any of these 3 options I believe to be more user-friendly than the the new version of the skill, while still solving the strange aiming the skill has since it became 3 mines in a triangular pattern.



Looking for an open discussion about which options other sorcerers like or dislike. Also open to other suggestions. Hoping to get some dev attention. Thanks all!

WrathOfInnos

Any thoughts on this @Vaoh and @YoloWizard?

dpencil1

Beautiful! A+ for graphics and clarity of suggestion.

I like the 3rd option the best, but would settle for the first.

Dymence

This is really hard to comment on right now as I haven't done any raids with mines on PTS (was messing with the new asylum staff), but I don't know if the new positioning will be such a big deal. It was awkward to get used to the current, and it will just take getting used to the new ones again and it will be fine I guess.

I don't think it's a high ZOS priority anyways.

WrathOfInnos

Thanks for the replies. I agree @Dymence that this probably isn't the highest priority, but it's a shame to see a fun niche skill like this become less accessible to both those who currently use it, and those that do not. I don't believe it's just a matter of getting used to it (although that is partially true), I think it is fundamentally more difficult to aim at a point that is farther from you, and blocked from view (by the target), while being more affected by uneven terrain.

I had not mines much on PTS myself until after the Asylum destro nerf this week, when I realized that a force pulse/crushing shock rotation my not surpass mines after all. @dpencil1 I was enjoying your Asylum rotation last week, got up to nearly 42k with it. I have yet to break 40k with mines post-Morrowind. Too bad we now need 2 pulses every 4s to keep status effect uptime, that doesn't leave much room for heavy attacks and DoTs (hoping for a change there as well, but that's off-topic).

I also like option 3 the best, as it is most rewarding to player skill and good positioning, while being forgiving to slightly less ideal conditions.

Dymence

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Thanks for the replies. I agree @Dymence that this probably isn't the highest priority, but it's a shame to see a fun niche skill like this become less accessible to both those who currently use it, and those that do not. I don't believe it's just a matter of getting used to it (although that is partially true), I think it is fundamentally more difficult to aim at a point that is farther from you, and blocked from view (by the target), while being more affected by uneven terrain.

I had not mines much on PTS myself until after the Asylum destro nerf this week, when I realized that a force pulse/crushing shock rotation my not surpass mines after all. @dpencil1 I was enjoying your Asylum rotation last week, got up to nearly 42k with it. I have yet to break 40k with mines post-Morrowind. Too bad we now need 2 pulses every 4s to keep status effect uptime, that doesn't leave much room for heavy attacks and DoTs (hoping for a change there as well, but that's off-topic).

I also like option 3 the best, as it is most rewarding to player skill and good positioning, while being forgiving to slightly less ideal conditions.

It's not really a niche skill. Mines are providing the best DPS in raids provided you can make the proper use of them. Maybe I will get some proper testing with the new mines on PTS next week with EU character copies.

As for the Asylum staff, it was fun to play around with but it doesn't take long to realize that it's only good for cheesing a dummy parse with 90%+ offbalance uptime. Not really worth running for actual raids.

As for your 3rd option, I don't really know how to feel about it. It would give a lot more DPS than it does currently and, while I wouldn't say no to more DPS, I don't know if it wouldn't be overpowered like that.

WrathOfInnos

Dymence wrote: »

providing the best DPS in raids provided you can make the proper use of them.

^ That's the niche . Anyway, I would like to see the skill used more. Outside of raids and dummy parses it does not seem very popular. Maybe it's an EU vs NA difference, but I can't remember the last time I queued for a random and got a sorcerer with mines in the group. Friends from raid guilds use them for sure.

I'm hoping the change in aim was an effort to make this skill more desirable, I just think it may still need some adjustment before it goes live.

Let me know what you think when you get a chance to test further with your characters (Monday?).

Dymence

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

providing the best DPS in raids provided you can make the proper use of them.

^ That's the niche . Anyway, I would like to see the skill used more. Outside of raids and dummy parses it does not seem very popular. Maybe it's an EU vs NA difference, but I can't remember the last time I queued for a random and got a sorcerer with mines in the group. Friends from raid guilds use them for sure.

I'm hoping the change in aim was an effort to make this skill more desirable, I just think it may still need some adjustment before it goes live.

Let me know what you think when you get a chance to test further with your characters (Monday?).

Fair enough

By all means I wouldn't mind any change to positioning that makes them easier to use.

Emma_Overload

I prefer the PTS version to the Live version, but your #3 version would be ideal. They're never gonna give us #3, however, because it would cause all kinds of crying in PvP if you could hit players with multiple mines at once.

Vaoh

@WrathOfInnos
This looks like an awesome change imo! Finally makes Daedric Tomb more reliable and easier to aim.

However, I would never recommend this in PvE unless *maybe* against the Archcustodian in vHoF. Since Necrotic Orb'e synergy stopped restoring magicka to nearby allies, Daedric Tomb stopped becoming a spammable DPS skill.

Merlin13KAGL

I honestly still prefer the original version.

Regarding targeting, though, any round AoE should have crosshairs be the center of the desired location, never the edge.

WrathOfInnos

@Emma_Overload I haven't used Tomb much in PVP, I believe the other morph is preferred. I see what you mean though, a death recap of Daedric tomb x 3 would cause some rage. I would make the point that it would be nearly impossible to hit a moving target with option 3, so it has a counter, and I recommended a damage reduction with that option. Hitting another player with 2 mines is currently possible, but only practical after a stun or immobilize, a stationary target, or a lucky shot.

WrathOfInnos

@Vaoh @Merlin13KAGL I'm not sure if I was clear about this in the OP, but on PTS centering the mines directly on the enemy causes only one mine to go off. My pictures show where you must aim to hit with multiple mines. Unless you can hit with 2 mines, you are better off using a different skill that does not cost 5k+ magicka. My suggested options 1 and 3 would allow you to aim at the target and hit with multiple mines, while options 2 and 3 would keep the mines centered on the aim point.

@Vaoh I'm surprised you are not using this skill anymore. It was one of your posts that introduced me to this morph of mines. I have found that it is sustainable with a rotation of Pet > Liquid lightning > Blockade > Mines > Heavy Attack > Mines > Heavy Attack > Mines if you have group support (worm and the occasional orb). Not quite spammable, but still usable. I find it still works well on most trial bosses (with some exceptions of course).

I think at least one sorc needs to be using a dark magic skill to provide minor prophecy to a trial group, and I feel that the nerfs have hit crystal frags harder than mines. Not to mention that nothing procs frags with a heavy attack rotation.

Alpheu5

I've been using Daedric Tomb for over a year now, and it might just be because of the length of time and my affinity for the skill, but the current aiming offset feels more intuitive.

WrathOfInnos

@Alpheu5, so you like the way it is currently on live, and possibly option 2, but dislike PTS and options 1 and 3?

I should have added voting to this thread, would be interesting to see everyone's preference.

Waffennacht

If only the original came back...

Dymence

Vaoh wrote: »

@WrathOfInnos
This looks like an awesome change imo! Finally makes Daedric Tomb more reliable and easier to aim.

However, I would never recommend this in PvE unless *maybe* against the Archcustodian in vHoF. Since Necrotic Orb'e synergy stopped restoring magicka to nearby allies, Daedric Tomb stopped becoming a spammable DPS skill.

Mines are better than all the alternatives on every boss except the assembly general. It doesn't need to be spammable to beat everything else. Once per rotation will already put it miles ahead of the alternatives.

Alpheu5

Waffennacht wrote: »

If only the original came back...

You mean the one where the 3 of them showed up in a nice line right in front of you? No thanks. Part of the reason I love the current iteration of Daedric Tomb so damn much is because of its versatility, in that it can be used both offensively and defensively at will without the need to reposition.

Waffennacht

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

If only the original came back...

You mean the one where the 3 of them showed up in a nice line right in front of you? No thanks. Part of the reason I love the current iteration of Daedric Tomb so damn much is because of its versatility, in that it can be used both offensively and defensively at will without the need to reposition.

But did you use it as an up close spammable? You could land two mines per cast dealing 20k DMG spammable... I miss it lol

Dymence

Waffennacht wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

If only the original came back...

You mean the one where the 3 of them showed up in a nice line right in front of you? No thanks. Part of the reason I love the current iteration of Daedric Tomb so damn much is because of its versatility, in that it can be used both offensively and defensively at will without the need to reposition.

But did you use it as an up close spammable? You could land two mines per cast dealing 20k DMG spammable... I miss it lol

You can still land 2 mines

Waffennacht

Dymence wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

If only the original came back...

You mean the one where the 3 of them showed up in a nice line right in front of you? No thanks. Part of the reason I love the current iteration of Daedric Tomb so damn much is because of its versatility, in that it can be used both offensively and defensively at will without the need to reposition.

But did you use it as an up close spammable? You could land two mines per cast dealing 20k DMG spammable... I miss it lol

You can still land 2 mines

Not against a player as a spammable, even roll Dodge AC is a moment slower than what it use to be.

They changed it for a reason (PvP reason 10k DMG per attack, spammable, with roots)

I just miss it is all, in PvE... I'm like... WoE + heavy = content doneed lll

Alpheu5

Dymence wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

If only the original came back...

You mean the one where the 3 of them showed up in a nice line right in front of you? No thanks. Part of the reason I love the current iteration of Daedric Tomb so damn much is because of its versatility, in that it can be used both offensively and defensively at will without the need to reposition.

But did you use it as an up close spammable? You could land two mines per cast dealing 20k DMG spammable... I miss it lol

You can still land 2 mines

You either have to land a direct hit while they're knocked down, get extremely lucky while they're strafing, of have someone gapclose you when you drop them at your feet.

Vaoh

@WrathOfInnos It sounds like a good change to me. Being on console I have yet to test ingame to confirm though.

I have tried new setups and honestly haven't even slotted Daedric Tomb a single time in HotR. I'm sure it could still be used to good effect but my group has always run 2-3 Mag Sorcs (changed recently to 1-2), so I haven't really bothered with it much these days.

After seeing this post and remembering what I used to do with this skill I'll probably try it out again though!

Speed_Kills

@Alpheu5 is the only player I have ever seen use this morph of mines to great success in PVP. I'm agreeing with whatever his opinion is on the subject.

Mystrius_Archaion

Going from your images:

1) They were bugged on the location placement versus the circle, as compared to every other ground targeted effect also, which is why the change was made. Placing runes outside where you expected based on the circle is definitely not intended.

2) You already can place them exactly at the spot of the enemy, but that doesn't help you get them to hit 2 of the mines which was never intended to be easy anyway.

3) The only better targeting you seem to be arguing for, other than you getting better and smarter at placing, is to have it be enemy targeted instead of ground targeted.
I would actually like it enemy targeted instead of ground targeted, same as I would prefer all ground targeted at range abilities. It's much more intuitive. The only issue is it would make this morph, and other skills, very different for setting up traps for enemies ahead of time in pvp, since pve wouldn't have the issue with how dumb npcs are. But then, the other morph set on your can be used to setup a trap and do so better with more runes and perfect placement.
I would consider it a positive change since they are instant arming.

I vote for targeted enemy centered placement of the runes.


Edit:
The other morph centered on the user reminds me of one of the most fun skills, and powerful when used correctly, in the mmo Champions Online. It was a ring of 5 crystals that would shock enemies in range of each of them. These were better though because their area of effect would overlap in the center of the area to hit the central enemy for a hell of a lot. This relied on skill of placement and enemies could see it. That is what made it balanced pvp while pve still had a super awesome reward for skilled play, especially when you hugged a wall beyond a door and lured enemies into the more tightly packed crystals(due to the wall preventing spreading).

WrathOfInnos

@Mystrius_Archaion Agreed that the version on live has strange aiming, and even though myself and many others have gotten used to it, there is a good reason for it to be changed.

I had not considered making the skill enemy targeted instead of ground targeted, that is a more drastic change than anything I was thinking. It would be interesting, but take away some of the utility and versatility of the skill, especially in PVP.


As for aiming, I would like to try to clarify exactly what I'm defining as the problem with a few more pictures. It seems like there have been a few misunderstandings above, possibly caused by the exaggeration of the aim in the drawn diagrams (done for clarity and less overlap of shapes).


On Live server, the mines fall as shown, relative to the crosshair shown, and are not centered



On PTS server, the mines fall as shown, relative to the crosshair shown, and are centered. This seems like an improvement when viewed only as a pattern on the ground, but read on...



On Live there is a range in which you can hit a target with 2 mines, this is the nearest point on the ground you can aim to pull off a double mine:


Also on Live, this is the furthest point you can aim to pull off a double mine hit (very close to directly below the target, but if you aim between its feet you will miss entirely) :


Anywhere between the points on the ground in the above 2 images will be effective use of Daedric Tomb, anywhere outside of this range will make it a inefficient and ineffective skill.


Now for PTS, the whole mine pattern is shifted backward significantly. The nearest point on the ground where you can aim and pull off a double mine is here (very close to directly below the target, but if you aim between its feet or in front of it you will hit with only one mine):



The furthest point on the ground where you can aim and pull off a double mine is here (a good distance behind the target):



So why is aiming behind the target a bad thing? A few reasons for this. First, it reduces the effective range of the skill by a few meters. Second, it means that with a large, bulky enemy, you cannot see where you're crosshair falls on the ground. Third, terrain can affect it more. There are many examples of this, with slight hills such as in HoF having the most effect. One example is shown below, in this picture it would be easy to hit the boss with mines on live, but it is impossible on PTS, because the required point of aim is hidden from view on the opposite side of the slope.



So to summarize aiming. On Live you must aim somewhere along a linear region on the ground in front of an enemy to use it effectively. On PTS you must aim somewhere along a linear region on the ground behind an enemy to use it effectively. I would prefer if the linear region that allowed 2 mines to proc was centered on the enemy, with slightly in front or slightly behind being acceptable to maintain good DPS. Option 1 in my original diagrams would produce this result (at the expense of keeping mines centered around the point of aim).

Option 2 would keep the mines centered around the point of aim, but by rotating their pattern, it shifts the ideal point of aim in front of the target, so it would feel more like it does on live without having them land off-center.

Option 3 would be just plain fun, and anyone who has played with Rank 3 of the skill knows why . If this becomes the new pattern, then I would be in favor of a slight damage nerf to ensure this does not become overpowered (test mines on a target skeleton against a wall if you want to see what triple mines can do).

Sorry for the wall of text, thanks for reading if you made it this far. Still open to debate or disagreement, just wanted to be sure that the problem and proposed solutions are fully understood.

Mystrius_Archaion

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Now for PTS, the whole mine pattern is shifted backward significantly. The nearest point on the ground where you can aim and pull off a double mine is here (very close to directly below the target, but if you aim between its feet or in front of it you will hit with only one mine):



The furthest point on the ground where you can aim and pull off a double mine is here (a good distance behind the target):

Apologies for just pulling this and not reading the rest yet....

I view the above as intended behavior. The mines are a triangle with circles at each point for the area of effect trigger. They do not overlap in the center, like the Champions Online example I gave, and instead overlap only close to or on the "sides" of the triangle. That's the direct lines between each rune.
I believe that is intended to make it impossible to trigger all 3, or 5 with the other morph, runes on one target and obliterate it with one cast.

That is why you have to aim behind the target on the ground for a double rune explosion, or to the lower left or lower right to line up the back rune and one of the front ones.(Edited for emphasis on an option you may have not considered.) That's intended and understandable.

This change was not a nerf, just fixing a bug. You can still be smart about your placement and make it work the same way, which you had to do when it was bugged with the location anyway.

If anything, it would work as you, and I also, want if each rune had a large enough AoE trigger range to overlap in the center, or have the hit-box for the target overlap. I wonder, does this work better on bigger targets with larger hit-boxes?


As for my "on target" suggestion, it would be a definite improvement for the ranged-instant-arm morph for ease of use and speed. The other morph is the ideal one for setting up any trap for the enemy, even if you must move to the location, because of more runes placed and more precision in placing them. I've already learned to use them as the Champions Online ability and bunch myself up in a corner around a door in pve forcing enemy NPCs to walk over 3 runes at once when they chase me around the corner with the runes unable to spawn inside a wall.

The "on-target" option would trigger multiple runes if they had overlap in the center of the triangle, but then you wouldn't have 3 separate explosions and may as well have one rune that does more.
After all is said and done, that may be the reason they do not have the overlap and we will just have to settle for correct positioning, as this "bug fix" shows, and our own skill at placement.
(Edit: That's also why the Champions Online skill was 5 DoT emitting crystals and not exploding crystals. They didn't get used up on one enemy. I loved that skill.)
(Edit 2: I love tactical gameplay like this. It's so fun having placement and preparation matter in a battle, but it is far under-utilized in this game.)

WrathOfInnos

Hoping to revitalize this thread once PTS opens with EU character copies today. Please try Daedric Tomb, and let me know if you like the new targeting system.

WrathOfInnos

@Dymence Did you get a chance to test this any more on PTS?

Feanor

Player creativity never ceases to amaze. Mines were never intended to be a DPS skill (the skill design indicates it is primary a defensive skill) but here we are...

Dymence

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@Dymence Did you get a chance to test this any more on PTS?

Not yet, I will later today