Medium Armor

deepseamk20b14_ESO

So full sturdy and impregnable armor? Of course you get better sustain by blocking than roll dodging lol. You're setup for that.

Honestly I think the roll dodge nerf was terrible. I get it. I played since beta. I saw zero stamina players to stamina players with "infinite dodge rolling" a year or two later. All we did was trade one evil for another and now most people are running these highly resistant yet high damage output heavy armor builds. I mean, we all remember heavy armor right? It needed a buff honestly but for whatever reason it's just to good now. I don't prefer it with my stamblade but as we all seem to agree, NB is fine in medium.

I'm sure people will hate me for saying this but:

Back before they added dodge roll fatigue I had zero problem with people roll dodging. people complained left and right but everyone of those builds were troll builds. I only ever saw them be considered "OP" when large groups would chase them around for an hour and no one could hit them because they didn't know how to play the game. In 1v1 they were nothing special. Now you have the current meta. Complaining all the time only causes knee jerk reactions that nerf one thing and super buff another. Never a real balance.

As a medium armor NB I'd gladly give up major evasion to get rid of dodge roll fatigue. I'm not saying I have an issue with sustain because frankly I don't. But let's also be honest, people didn't just hate infinite dodge roll they hated it stacked with shuffle and we also all know people were abusing the shuffle stack big (apparently).

Want a compromise that makes medium decent again?

Remove major evasion completely, get rid of dodge fatigue IF in FIVE or more pieces of medium armor.

Bring the hate lol.

DDuke

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

even a medium armor NB can be some what tough. I'm not talking "o I'll stand there and eat damage while laughing" but done correctly you can get a good amount of mitigation without really sacrificing much damage or sustain. You just don't get the extra healing heavy armor provides. However stacking some crit and crit damage you end up with the good heals, especially from cloak, and using certain skills and sets goes a long way. An extra 10-16% mitigation is not to be laughed at (compared to your average medium armor NB rocking 16 to 19k resistances). It's not heavy armor equivalent but it helps lol.

Now obviously what I'm about to say is when things go well and under great conditions. Using LoS , shadow image, cloak and other techniques, in 5 seconds I can heal from damn near death to full HP. We all know over 5 seconds is not as good as a burst heal, but that 5 seconds is still pretty damn quick lol.

Yeah, you can run defensive sets just to get equal mitigation with heavy - but you're giving up tons of dmg/healing for it and fall far behind heavy armor that runs offensive sets in that regard.

Also, just fyi cloak doesn't affect healing at all anymore - Shadowy Disguise crit buff gets consumed by the first DoT tick on target (so no crit heals or even crit dmg out of cloak). More on that here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/367271/dot-ticks-ruin-shadowy-disguise#latest

I read that the other day. I tested rending slashes/blood craze and shadow image a couple of days ago and I couldn't get it to consume my crit using vigor and rally as my heal. I only tested those because I don't use any others. My heals still crit. Not sure what I did differently but it still worked fine for me unless my screen is lying to me.

Well, I will triple check Shadowy Disguise once PTS is available again - there's multiple ways to explain your results, i.e. if you cast cloak multiple times (you get a new "guaranteed crit" buff every time, which then gets consumed by the next DoT tick) or if you just naturally have a high crit chance.

Shadow Image is technically a "pet", so that particular skill not consuming the buff is understandable (as it says "your next attack" on the tooltip).

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

So full sturdy and impregnable armor? Of course you get better sustain by blocking than roll dodging lol. You're setup for that.

Honestly I think the roll dodge nerf was terrible. I get it. I played since beta. I saw zero stamina players to stamina players with "infinite dodge rolling" a year or two later. All we did was trade one evil for another and now most people are running these highly resistant yet high damage output heavy armor builds. I mean, we all remember heavy armor right? It needed a buff honestly but for whatever reason it's just to good now. I don't prefer it with my stamblade but as we all seem to agree, NB is fine in medium.

Don't put words in other peoples' mouths.

NB just like other classes is far from fine in medium - just go duel any decent player in a meta heavy armor build - or get Soul Assault combo'd in Cyrodiil.

I haven't seen a single medium build beat any of these meta Legion Fury meta builds, Soul Assault pet sorcs/magplars or Skoria cancer magicka DKs this patch - not a single one.

Ahzek

I agree both with the statement that medium is underperforming in PvP on ANY class, and with the statement that NB are the best at offsetting the disadvantages of medium in the current meta.

olsborg

Medium armor isnt that good on a stamblade either, it works yes, but heavy is still gonna outperform over med. Medium is pretty crappy on templar,warden, sorc and dk tho, needs a buff definately. Theres plenty of threads about the issue where ppl have posted good ideas on what it needs.

Mazbt

It's unfair to say no one uses medium in pvp anymore. I switch up my set ups often but I feel quick and nimble in medium, and more up front first hit damage (although I think heavy can out do it after taking damage and stacking wrath). On a stamplar medium can get quite tanky due to passives and restoring focus, bloodspawn, troll king, w/e.

Killset

DDuke wrote: »

Can someone explain to me why stamblades are suddenly somehow too strong in medium (or any armor type)? Most of them currently use heavy and don't do any better than heavy armor builds of other classes.

Based on my experiences, it's usually just the people who play solo & refuse to run any cloak counters (det pot, AoEs, piercing mark etc) that have problems with NBs.

Or are people still too traumatized about the proc meta? That kind of burst doesn't exist anymore after the nerfs, and other classes are better at sustained DPS.

Stamblades aren't. They are bad in medium just like everyone else. I think a lot of people have an agenda when they say Stamblade is fine. I have run about every build in the world on Stamblade and guess what. I'm back in heavy. Medium is great and fun right up until someone looks at you. With AOE's, soul assaults, birds, destro ults, detect pots, curse, potl, caltrops, etc, cloak is always an iffy proposition at best. Good players with end game builds will melt a Stamblade more often than not. Cloak is just too easy to counter.

Brrrofski

DDuke wrote: »

Can someone explain to me why stamblades are suddenly somehow too strong in medium (or any armor type)? Most of them currently use heavy and don't do any better than heavy armor builds of other classes.

Based on my experiences, it's usually just the people who play solo & refuse to run any cloak counters (det pot, AoEs, piercing mark etc) that have problems with NBs.

Or are people still too traumatized about the proc meta? That kind of burst doesn't exist anymore after the nerfs, and other classes are better at sustained DPS.

Who said suddenly? Stamblades have been top 3 for as long I can remember.

I play all classes in PvP. If I wear medium on my stamplar, then medium on my Stam NB, the survivability is a night and day difference. Because on a stamblade as soon as I take damage, I can use shade or cloak and buy breathing room. I can heal and buff and go in again. Try doing that on another class in medium. You got no chance.

Stamblades never needed proc sets to burst. I have never used viper, selenes or velidreth on mine. Never had a problem busting people (apart from those obvious ridiculous tanks). My combo kills majority of people with little chance to react.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

DDuke wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

even a medium armor NB can be some what tough. I'm not talking "o I'll stand there and eat damage while laughing" but done correctly you can get a good amount of mitigation without really sacrificing much damage or sustain. You just don't get the extra healing heavy armor provides. However stacking some crit and crit damage you end up with the good heals, especially from cloak, and using certain skills and sets goes a long way. An extra 10-16% mitigation is not to be laughed at (compared to your average medium armor NB rocking 16 to 19k resistances). It's not heavy armor equivalent but it helps lol.

Now obviously what I'm about to say is when things go well and under great conditions. Using LoS , shadow image, cloak and other techniques, in 5 seconds I can heal from damn near death to full HP. We all know over 5 seconds is not as good as a burst heal, but that 5 seconds is still pretty damn quick lol.

Yeah, you can run defensive sets just to get equal mitigation with heavy - but you're giving up tons of dmg/healing for it and fall far behind heavy armor that runs offensive sets in that regard.

Also, just fyi cloak doesn't affect healing at all anymore - Shadowy Disguise crit buff gets consumed by the first DoT tick on target (so no crit heals or even crit dmg out of cloak). More on that here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/367271/dot-ticks-ruin-shadowy-disguise#latest

I read that the other day. I tested rending slashes/blood craze and shadow image a couple of days ago and I couldn't get it to consume my crit using vigor and rally as my heal. I only tested those because I don't use any others. My heals still crit. Not sure what I did differently but it still worked fine for me unless my screen is lying to me.

Well, I will triple check Shadowy Disguise once PTS is available again - there's multiple ways to explain your results, i.e. if you cast cloak multiple times (you get a new "guaranteed crit" buff every time, which then gets consumed by the next DoT tick) or if you just naturally have a high crit chance.

Shadow Image is technically a "pet", so that particular skill not consuming the buff is understandable (as it says "your next attack" on the tooltip).

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

So full sturdy and impregnable armor? Of course you get better sustain by blocking than roll dodging lol. You're setup for that.

Honestly I think the roll dodge nerf was terrible. I get it. I played since beta. I saw zero stamina players to stamina players with "infinite dodge rolling" a year or two later. All we did was trade one evil for another and now most people are running these highly resistant yet high damage output heavy armor builds. I mean, we all remember heavy armor right? It needed a buff honestly but for whatever reason it's just to good now. I don't prefer it with my stamblade but as we all seem to agree, NB is fine in medium.

Don't put words in other peoples' mouths.

NB just like other classes is far from fine in medium - just go duel any decent player in a meta heavy armor build - or get Soul Assault combo'd in Cyrodiil.

I haven't seen a single medium build beat any of these meta Legion Fury meta builds, Soul Assault pet sorcs/magplars or Skoria cancer magicka DKs this patch - not a single one.

Not trying to put words in peoples mouths, just looking at all the comments in this thread and a lot of people specifically mention NB performs fine in medium armor. I also have very little issue as an NB in medium armor.

As for soul assault, it's easy to survive as an NB. Unless something changed with HotR, which i believe it has not as I have done it since, hold block. When they soul assault you, hold block. Cloak will be grey for a moment, but after a second, suddenly cloak can be used. Cloak and boom, you broke their soul assault and you've taken VERY little damage. I've been using this trick for quite some time now.

In a duel the only class I have difficulty with is a DK who holds block the entire time and waits for their armor set to either proc or fully build up damage (ex; ravager, legion, fury). They normally put whatever DoT's they have on you and keep spamming whatever single target they happen to be using until they are at full damage potential. At this point if their leap is up they animation cancel (insert attack here) with leap and then execute. Leap is super powerful as it's an AoE and before you can break free do to the nature of the type of CC it is, they can usually get 1 or 2 free hits on you.

The main reason medium armor players die to this is because they choose to roll dodge instead of block and aren't keeping vigor up. DK will talon them, goading them into roll dodging, then leaping while you roll dodge and as you know, AoE goes through roll dodge. If the fight has gone on for a little, know they probably have their ult up and start playing defensive. teleport to shade or get ready to block instead of dodge roll as they leap. Once they waste their ult you can go back to pounding on them for awhile and setting up burst. It's hard, I know. I normally don't even bother fighting a DK whom I know is setup like that because it's bad enough it takes 10 people to kill them while they also have insane burst potential. This however doesn't mean medium armor is weak for NB, it means heavy armor and its access to heavy damage sets is to strong.

above all, remember, im not arguing that medium armor is perfectly fine. It's fine, as in it works with NB, but it can be buffed. Don't worry, I'm not trying to say don't buff medium armor, don't misconstrue it that way.

I still think this is how it should be:

every class can use a shield, roll dodge, or block right? However, depending on the main armor type you're using (AKA 5 or more pieces of X) you should get a bonus to the corresponding defense. Light armor should have reduced cost on shields while non light armor should have a high cost, making it not feasible to be their main defense.

Medium armor should have reduced roll dodge cost and GET RID OF roll dodge fatigue if wearing 5 or more pieces of medium armor. Let's face it, people didn't like roll dodge NB's because their sustain with the old 30% stamina recovery passive (which we no longer have) and siphoning strikes (which has been nerfed into the ground). With those gone, we (all classes in medium) should be able to roll dodge without fatigue and it should be more balanced then before as that "infinite sustain" from trolling NB roll dodgers is simply not there anymore. Most roll dodging trolls who are NB's are eternal hunt trolls. Stop stepping on their mines.....Plus everyone uses powerful AoE's anyways now, and it has made dodge rolling a shadow of it's former self concerning defense.

Heavy armor, gets reduced block cost compared to everyone else. Keep rapid mending passive as it but change wrath to not stack that much damage and remove constitution (make it something else). They will be able to still sustain while holding block as it will cost less, they have to heavy attack every once and awhile which will stop the B.S. holding block 100% of the fight, and most importantly it won't effect PvE to much as long as they build for slightly more sustain or get shards from templars as a temp should be providing anyways (obviously other classes heal too, but tanks will be fine).

Every armor type gets their main type of defense while being slightly "punished" for using defensive techniques outside of their armor arch type. They can still use the other methods of defense, but it wouldn't stack as bad as it does now. People already deal with being in LA or in MA and using block when needed without it interfering to much. MA and HA are already fine without shields. HA and LA already are fine with roll dodging periodically while using their main defensive skills (shields and blocking).

Also, the armor specific skills SHOULD NOT be able to be used unless the person is wearing 5 or more pieces of that specific type of armor. harness really isn't used much outside of LA wearers, but HA tanks still use shuffle which to me is absolute B.S. and completely unbalanced as they already have immense defensive capabilities without adding in major evasion.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

And remember, we screwed ourselves. Everyone was sick of stamina sucking in the game so they buffed stamina finally. Then everyone was in medium and people complained. So much so they nerfed its main defense, roll dodge by adding fatigue. But because people complained so much they didn't just stop there. They added in stronger AoE. They removed the ability to interrupt certain skills. They added undodgable skills. ZoS didn't nerf medium, we did with the constant forum warriors and out spoken youtubers who ruined it for the rest of us so we had to play THEIR way instead of taking the time to make our own successful builds. I'm not saying everyone did this but everyone here should be eyes wide open to the fact the squeaky wheel gets the grease. People are more apt to complain when they don't like something than to give praise when something works well. This is why we see nothing but nerfs in this game. How many nerf threads do you see a day? Because I see a lot. Instead of people learning they call for nerfs when they die and blame their own lack of skill and understanding of the game on other classes or skills. This is why there will always be a meta and no balance because people naturally have to find something to *** about lol.

DDuke

Wow, that's a lot of text. I'll just focus on this part because it clearly outlines how different our PvP experiences are:

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

even a medium armor NB can be some what tough. I'm not talking "o I'll stand there and eat damage while laughing" but done correctly you can get a good amount of mitigation without really sacrificing much damage or sustain. You just don't get the extra healing heavy armor provides. However stacking some crit and crit damage you end up with the good heals, especially from cloak, and using certain skills and sets goes a long way. An extra 10-16% mitigation is not to be laughed at (compared to your average medium armor NB rocking 16 to 19k resistances). It's not heavy armor equivalent but it helps lol.

Now obviously what I'm about to say is when things go well and under great conditions. Using LoS , shadow image, cloak and other techniques, in 5 seconds I can heal from damn near death to full HP. We all know over 5 seconds is not as good as a burst heal, but that 5 seconds is still pretty damn quick lol.

Yeah, you can run defensive sets just to get equal mitigation with heavy - but you're giving up tons of dmg/healing for it and fall far behind heavy armor that runs offensive sets in that regard.

Also, just fyi cloak doesn't affect healing at all anymore - Shadowy Disguise crit buff gets consumed by the first DoT tick on target (so no crit heals or even crit dmg out of cloak). More on that here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/367271/dot-ticks-ruin-shadowy-disguise#latest

I read that the other day. I tested rending slashes/blood craze and shadow image a couple of days ago and I couldn't get it to consume my crit using vigor and rally as my heal. I only tested those because I don't use any others. My heals still crit. Not sure what I did differently but it still worked fine for me unless my screen is lying to me.

Well, I will triple check Shadowy Disguise once PTS is available again - there's multiple ways to explain your results, i.e. if you cast cloak multiple times (you get a new "guaranteed crit" buff every time, which then gets consumed by the next DoT tick) or if you just naturally have a high crit chance.

Shadow Image is technically a "pet", so that particular skill not consuming the buff is understandable (as it says "your next attack" on the tooltip).

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

So full sturdy and impregnable armor? Of course you get better sustain by blocking than roll dodging lol. You're setup for that.

Honestly I think the roll dodge nerf was terrible. I get it. I played since beta. I saw zero stamina players to stamina players with "infinite dodge rolling" a year or two later. All we did was trade one evil for another and now most people are running these highly resistant yet high damage output heavy armor builds. I mean, we all remember heavy armor right? It needed a buff honestly but for whatever reason it's just to good now. I don't prefer it with my stamblade but as we all seem to agree, NB is fine in medium.

Don't put words in other peoples' mouths.

NB just like other classes is far from fine in medium - just go duel any decent player in a meta heavy armor build - or get Soul Assault combo'd in Cyrodiil.

I haven't seen a single medium build beat any of these meta Legion Fury meta builds, Soul Assault pet sorcs/magplars or Skoria cancer magicka DKs this patch - not a single one.

Not trying to put words in peoples mouths, just looking at all the comments in this thread and a lot of people specifically mention NB performs fine in medium armor. I also have very little issue as an NB in medium armor.

As for soul assault, it's easy to survive as an NB. Unless something changed with HotR, which i believe it has not as I have done it since, hold block. When they soul assault you, hold block. Cloak will be grey for a moment, but after a second, suddenly cloak can be used. Cloak and boom, you broke their soul assault and you've taken VERY little damage. I've been using this trick for quite some time now.

In a duel the only class I have difficulty with is a DK who holds block the entire time and waits for their armor set to either proc or fully build up damage (ex; ravager, legion, fury). They normally put whatever DoT's they have on you and keep spamming whatever single target they happen to be using until they are at full damage potential. At this point if their leap is up they animation cancel (insert attack here) with leap and then execute. Leap is super powerful as it's an AoE and before you can break free do to the nature of the type of CC it is, they can usually get 1 or 2 free hits on you.

Atleast on PC EU, people actually know how to combo those Soul Assaults.

Sure, you block the first two seconds (still taking 10k'ish dmg through Vigor & 10k hit to your stam pool), but once you cloak - *poof* Curse/Purifying Light/Unstable Core goes off, uncloaks you and (if not already) you're dead from execute/DoTs/pet attacks.

There's no way to survive - not even with 7 impen & 5k weapon dmg Vigor heals. Not without S&B anyway.

And yes, those DKs are also an issue even if they don't have Soul Assault slotted - they can uncloak you whenever you want with Volatile Armor, their DoTs outdamage your Vigor heals while you're dodging the whips & then you get Leap'd once you're around 50% health->dead. All while having probably taped down the RMB.


The only decent players medium armor (including NB) beats in duels are other medium armor players & non-pet sorcs (as Curse+Soul Assault alone usually isn't enough dmg).

Brrrofski

DDuke wrote: »

Wow, that's a lot of text. I'll just focus on this part because it clearly outlines how different our PvP experiences are:

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

even a medium armor NB can be some what tough. I'm not talking "o I'll stand there and eat damage while laughing" but done correctly you can get a good amount of mitigation without really sacrificing much damage or sustain. You just don't get the extra healing heavy armor provides. However stacking some crit and crit damage you end up with the good heals, especially from cloak, and using certain skills and sets goes a long way. An extra 10-16% mitigation is not to be laughed at (compared to your average medium armor NB rocking 16 to 19k resistances). It's not heavy armor equivalent but it helps lol.

Now obviously what I'm about to say is when things go well and under great conditions. Using LoS , shadow image, cloak and other techniques, in 5 seconds I can heal from damn near death to full HP. We all know over 5 seconds is not as good as a burst heal, but that 5 seconds is still pretty damn quick lol.

Yeah, you can run defensive sets just to get equal mitigation with heavy - but you're giving up tons of dmg/healing for it and fall far behind heavy armor that runs offensive sets in that regard.

Also, just fyi cloak doesn't affect healing at all anymore - Shadowy Disguise crit buff gets consumed by the first DoT tick on target (so no crit heals or even crit dmg out of cloak). More on that here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/367271/dot-ticks-ruin-shadowy-disguise#latest

I read that the other day. I tested rending slashes/blood craze and shadow image a couple of days ago and I couldn't get it to consume my crit using vigor and rally as my heal. I only tested those because I don't use any others. My heals still crit. Not sure what I did differently but it still worked fine for me unless my screen is lying to me.

Well, I will triple check Shadowy Disguise once PTS is available again - there's multiple ways to explain your results, i.e. if you cast cloak multiple times (you get a new "guaranteed crit" buff every time, which then gets consumed by the next DoT tick) or if you just naturally have a high crit chance.

Shadow Image is technically a "pet", so that particular skill not consuming the buff is understandable (as it says "your next attack" on the tooltip).

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

So full sturdy and impregnable armor? Of course you get better sustain by blocking than roll dodging lol. You're setup for that.

Honestly I think the roll dodge nerf was terrible. I get it. I played since beta. I saw zero stamina players to stamina players with "infinite dodge rolling" a year or two later. All we did was trade one evil for another and now most people are running these highly resistant yet high damage output heavy armor builds. I mean, we all remember heavy armor right? It needed a buff honestly but for whatever reason it's just to good now. I don't prefer it with my stamblade but as we all seem to agree, NB is fine in medium.

Don't put words in other peoples' mouths.

NB just like other classes is far from fine in medium - just go duel any decent player in a meta heavy armor build - or get Soul Assault combo'd in Cyrodiil.

I haven't seen a single medium build beat any of these meta Legion Fury meta builds, Soul Assault pet sorcs/magplars or Skoria cancer magicka DKs this patch - not a single one.

Not trying to put words in peoples mouths, just looking at all the comments in this thread and a lot of people specifically mention NB performs fine in medium armor. I also have very little issue as an NB in medium armor.

As for soul assault, it's easy to survive as an NB. Unless something changed with HotR, which i believe it has not as I have done it since, hold block. When they soul assault you, hold block. Cloak will be grey for a moment, but after a second, suddenly cloak can be used. Cloak and boom, you broke their soul assault and you've taken VERY little damage. I've been using this trick for quite some time now.

In a duel the only class I have difficulty with is a DK who holds block the entire time and waits for their armor set to either proc or fully build up damage (ex; ravager, legion, fury). They normally put whatever DoT's they have on you and keep spamming whatever single target they happen to be using until they are at full damage potential. At this point if their leap is up they animation cancel (insert attack here) with leap and then execute. Leap is super powerful as it's an AoE and before you can break free do to the nature of the type of CC it is, they can usually get 1 or 2 free hits on you.

Atleast on PC EU, people actually know how to combo those Soul Assaults.

Sure, you block the first two seconds (still taking 10k'ish dmg through Vigor & 10k hit to your stam pool), but once you cloak - *poof* Curse/Purifying Light/Unstable Core goes off, uncloaks you and (if not already) you're dead from execute/DoTs/pet attacks.

There's no way to survive - not even with 7 impen & 5k weapon dmg Vigor heals. Not without S&B anyway.

And yes, those DKs are also an issue even if they don't have Soul Assault slotted - they can uncloak you whenever you want with Volatile Armor, their DoTs outdamage your Vigor heals while you're dodging the whips & then you get Leap'd once you're around 50% health->dead. All while having probably taped down the RMB.


The only decent players medium armor (including NB) beats in duels are other medium armor players & non-pet sorcs (as Curse+Soul Assault alone usually isn't enough dmg).

Duels are different. You can't balance PvP around duels. Medium armor on a stamblade in open world is not an issue. They do better than fine.

DDuke

Brrrofski wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Wow, that's a lot of text. I'll just focus on this part because it clearly outlines how different our PvP experiences are:

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

even a medium armor NB can be some what tough. I'm not talking "o I'll stand there and eat damage while laughing" but done correctly you can get a good amount of mitigation without really sacrificing much damage or sustain. You just don't get the extra healing heavy armor provides. However stacking some crit and crit damage you end up with the good heals, especially from cloak, and using certain skills and sets goes a long way. An extra 10-16% mitigation is not to be laughed at (compared to your average medium armor NB rocking 16 to 19k resistances). It's not heavy armor equivalent but it helps lol.

Now obviously what I'm about to say is when things go well and under great conditions. Using LoS , shadow image, cloak and other techniques, in 5 seconds I can heal from damn near death to full HP. We all know over 5 seconds is not as good as a burst heal, but that 5 seconds is still pretty damn quick lol.

Yeah, you can run defensive sets just to get equal mitigation with heavy - but you're giving up tons of dmg/healing for it and fall far behind heavy armor that runs offensive sets in that regard.

Also, just fyi cloak doesn't affect healing at all anymore - Shadowy Disguise crit buff gets consumed by the first DoT tick on target (so no crit heals or even crit dmg out of cloak). More on that here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/367271/dot-ticks-ruin-shadowy-disguise#latest

I read that the other day. I tested rending slashes/blood craze and shadow image a couple of days ago and I couldn't get it to consume my crit using vigor and rally as my heal. I only tested those because I don't use any others. My heals still crit. Not sure what I did differently but it still worked fine for me unless my screen is lying to me.

Well, I will triple check Shadowy Disguise once PTS is available again - there's multiple ways to explain your results, i.e. if you cast cloak multiple times (you get a new "guaranteed crit" buff every time, which then gets consumed by the next DoT tick) or if you just naturally have a high crit chance.

Shadow Image is technically a "pet", so that particular skill not consuming the buff is understandable (as it says "your next attack" on the tooltip).

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

So full sturdy and impregnable armor? Of course you get better sustain by blocking than roll dodging lol. You're setup for that.

Honestly I think the roll dodge nerf was terrible. I get it. I played since beta. I saw zero stamina players to stamina players with "infinite dodge rolling" a year or two later. All we did was trade one evil for another and now most people are running these highly resistant yet high damage output heavy armor builds. I mean, we all remember heavy armor right? It needed a buff honestly but for whatever reason it's just to good now. I don't prefer it with my stamblade but as we all seem to agree, NB is fine in medium.

Don't put words in other peoples' mouths.

NB just like other classes is far from fine in medium - just go duel any decent player in a meta heavy armor build - or get Soul Assault combo'd in Cyrodiil.

I haven't seen a single medium build beat any of these meta Legion Fury meta builds, Soul Assault pet sorcs/magplars or Skoria cancer magicka DKs this patch - not a single one.

Not trying to put words in peoples mouths, just looking at all the comments in this thread and a lot of people specifically mention NB performs fine in medium armor. I also have very little issue as an NB in medium armor.

As for soul assault, it's easy to survive as an NB. Unless something changed with HotR, which i believe it has not as I have done it since, hold block. When they soul assault you, hold block. Cloak will be grey for a moment, but after a second, suddenly cloak can be used. Cloak and boom, you broke their soul assault and you've taken VERY little damage. I've been using this trick for quite some time now.

In a duel the only class I have difficulty with is a DK who holds block the entire time and waits for their armor set to either proc or fully build up damage (ex; ravager, legion, fury). They normally put whatever DoT's they have on you and keep spamming whatever single target they happen to be using until they are at full damage potential. At this point if their leap is up they animation cancel (insert attack here) with leap and then execute. Leap is super powerful as it's an AoE and before you can break free do to the nature of the type of CC it is, they can usually get 1 or 2 free hits on you.

Atleast on PC EU, people actually know how to combo those Soul Assaults.

Sure, you block the first two seconds (still taking 10k'ish dmg through Vigor & 10k hit to your stam pool), but once you cloak - *poof* Curse/Purifying Light/Unstable Core goes off, uncloaks you and (if not already) you're dead from execute/DoTs/pet attacks.

There's no way to survive - not even with 7 impen & 5k weapon dmg Vigor heals. Not without S&B anyway.

And yes, those DKs are also an issue even if they don't have Soul Assault slotted - they can uncloak you whenever you want with Volatile Armor, their DoTs outdamage your Vigor heals while you're dodging the whips & then you get Leap'd once you're around 50% health->dead. All while having probably taped down the RMB.


The only decent players medium armor (including NB) beats in duels are other medium armor players & non-pet sorcs (as Curse+Soul Assault alone usually isn't enough dmg).

Duels are different. You can't balance PvP around duels. Medium armor on a stamblade in open world is not an issue. They do better than fine.

Well, as long as you don't meet any of those people you can't even 1v1 in medium.


And it still does better in heavy in open world, unless you're talking specifically about ganking.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

And yes, those DKs are also an issue even if they don't have Soul Assault slotted - they can uncloak you whenever you want with Volatile Armor, their DoTs outdamage your Vigor heals while you're dodging the whips & then you get Leap'd once you're around 50% health->dead. All while having probably taped down the RMB.

Yup, that's par for the course but again I blame not heavy for that but the heavy sets that make them not only tanky but bursts. There are to many heavy sets that can easily turn a "tank" into a DPSer (PvP that is). If there weren't heavy sets giving these people hundreds of weapon damage that end up surpassing most damage (not all) a medium armor wearer can produce we wouldn't have as much of an issue.

And as far as soul assault, I got 99 problems but soul assault ain't one, if you're having soul assault problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems but playing in NA ain't one.

Killset

Brrrofski wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Wow, that's a lot of text. I'll just focus on this part because it clearly outlines how different our PvP experiences are:

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

even a medium armor NB can be some what tough. I'm not talking "o I'll stand there and eat damage while laughing" but done correctly you can get a good amount of mitigation without really sacrificing much damage or sustain. You just don't get the extra healing heavy armor provides. However stacking some crit and crit damage you end up with the good heals, especially from cloak, and using certain skills and sets goes a long way. An extra 10-16% mitigation is not to be laughed at (compared to your average medium armor NB rocking 16 to 19k resistances). It's not heavy armor equivalent but it helps lol.

Now obviously what I'm about to say is when things go well and under great conditions. Using LoS , shadow image, cloak and other techniques, in 5 seconds I can heal from damn near death to full HP. We all know over 5 seconds is not as good as a burst heal, but that 5 seconds is still pretty damn quick lol.

Yeah, you can run defensive sets just to get equal mitigation with heavy - but you're giving up tons of dmg/healing for it and fall far behind heavy armor that runs offensive sets in that regard.

Also, just fyi cloak doesn't affect healing at all anymore - Shadowy Disguise crit buff gets consumed by the first DoT tick on target (so no crit heals or even crit dmg out of cloak). More on that here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/367271/dot-ticks-ruin-shadowy-disguise#latest

I read that the other day. I tested rending slashes/blood craze and shadow image a couple of days ago and I couldn't get it to consume my crit using vigor and rally as my heal. I only tested those because I don't use any others. My heals still crit. Not sure what I did differently but it still worked fine for me unless my screen is lying to me.

Well, I will triple check Shadowy Disguise once PTS is available again - there's multiple ways to explain your results, i.e. if you cast cloak multiple times (you get a new "guaranteed crit" buff every time, which then gets consumed by the next DoT tick) or if you just naturally have a high crit chance.

Shadow Image is technically a "pet", so that particular skill not consuming the buff is understandable (as it says "your next attack" on the tooltip).

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

So full sturdy and impregnable armor? Of course you get better sustain by blocking than roll dodging lol. You're setup for that.

Honestly I think the roll dodge nerf was terrible. I get it. I played since beta. I saw zero stamina players to stamina players with "infinite dodge rolling" a year or two later. All we did was trade one evil for another and now most people are running these highly resistant yet high damage output heavy armor builds. I mean, we all remember heavy armor right? It needed a buff honestly but for whatever reason it's just to good now. I don't prefer it with my stamblade but as we all seem to agree, NB is fine in medium.

Don't put words in other peoples' mouths.

NB just like other classes is far from fine in medium - just go duel any decent player in a meta heavy armor build - or get Soul Assault combo'd in Cyrodiil.

I haven't seen a single medium build beat any of these meta Legion Fury meta builds, Soul Assault pet sorcs/magplars or Skoria cancer magicka DKs this patch - not a single one.

Not trying to put words in peoples mouths, just looking at all the comments in this thread and a lot of people specifically mention NB performs fine in medium armor. I also have very little issue as an NB in medium armor.

As for soul assault, it's easy to survive as an NB. Unless something changed with HotR, which i believe it has not as I have done it since, hold block. When they soul assault you, hold block. Cloak will be grey for a moment, but after a second, suddenly cloak can be used. Cloak and boom, you broke their soul assault and you've taken VERY little damage. I've been using this trick for quite some time now.

In a duel the only class I have difficulty with is a DK who holds block the entire time and waits for their armor set to either proc or fully build up damage (ex; ravager, legion, fury). They normally put whatever DoT's they have on you and keep spamming whatever single target they happen to be using until they are at full damage potential. At this point if their leap is up they animation cancel (insert attack here) with leap and then execute. Leap is super powerful as it's an AoE and before you can break free do to the nature of the type of CC it is, they can usually get 1 or 2 free hits on you.

Atleast on PC EU, people actually know how to combo those Soul Assaults.

Sure, you block the first two seconds (still taking 10k'ish dmg through Vigor & 10k hit to your stam pool), but once you cloak - *poof* Curse/Purifying Light/Unstable Core goes off, uncloaks you and (if not already) you're dead from execute/DoTs/pet attacks.

There's no way to survive - not even with 7 impen & 5k weapon dmg Vigor heals. Not without S&B anyway.

And yes, those DKs are also an issue even if they don't have Soul Assault slotted - they can uncloak you whenever you want with Volatile Armor, their DoTs outdamage your Vigor heals while you're dodging the whips & then you get Leap'd once you're around 50% health->dead. All while having probably taped down the RMB.


The only decent players medium armor (including NB) beats in duels are other medium armor players & non-pet sorcs (as Curse+Soul Assault alone usually isn't enough dmg).

Duels are different. You can't balance PvP around duels. Medium armor on a stamblade in open world is not an issue. They do better than fine.

I'm so sick of people saying this lol. Duels are about the best test we have in comparing two classes. I get it, if you suck 1v1 you go link up with the Zerg in Cyrodiil and convince yourself you're not bad and you're class is ok! Or another favorite is the people who stand about 50 yards off to the side but never out of eye sight of their safety net.

Killset

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

And yes, those DKs are also an issue even if they don't have Soul Assault slotted - they can uncloak you whenever you want with Volatile Armor, their DoTs outdamage your Vigor heals while you're dodging the whips & then you get Leap'd once you're around 50% health->dead. All while having probably taped down the RMB.

Yup, that's par for the course but again I blame not heavy for that but the heavy sets that make them not only tanky but bursts. There are to many heavy sets that can easily turn a "tank" into a DPSer (PvP that is). If there weren't heavy sets giving these people hundreds of weapon damage that end up surpassing most damage (not all) a medium armor wearer can produce we wouldn't have as much of an issue.

And as far as soul assault, I got 99 problems but soul assault ain't one, if you're having soul assault problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems but playing in NA ain't one.

Who are you fighting lol? You fight a good player and I promise you he can roast your med armor Stamblade with soul assault. Do you play Xbox NA by any chance? I main a Stamblade but will be more than willing to duel you on a magic class on your med armor Stamblade and show you just how brutal it can be. Again Stamblade does fine against your common run of the mill zerglings. But that is no indicator as to the state of the class or medium armor.

This doesn't even take into consideration if you are fighting more than one person. A well timed soul assault, while wearing medium, can dash you're dreams of grandeur in short order. Stamplars and DK's have a little more resistances and a little better heals (for the most part) and NB has cloak. All can be severely underwhelming when getting beat on by a couple of people while wearing medium. All I am saying is Medium armor Stamblade fairs no better or worse than any other class that runs it. And that is to say, poorly.

technohic

Just ran 3 different skill load outs on my stamblade and thought I preferred medium before. Wound up in heavy though as with Zerg surfing; it became pretty obvious after roll dodging a bit, you get called out for birds and beams from all over the place. Cloak only goes so far. And if a stun lands on you, it's game over.

At the same time; I don't like the idea of a blanket nerf to heavy either. We need a different option than just shield spam gameplay. Medium needs some love.