Medium Armor

Skander

It needs a buff, people aren't all cloaky NBs, even if the 74% of eso population is.


Before you start with the crying. I play a Magicka templar. So i'm no bias in this

Kikke

sounds like a l2p issue for me

Skander

kikkehs wrote: »

sounds like a l2p issue for me

Before you start with the crying. I play a Magicka templar. So i'm no bias in this

You are blind?

Thogard

Skander wrote: »

kikkehs wrote: »

sounds like a l2p issue for me

Before you start with the crying. I play a Magicka templar. So i'm no bias in this

You are blind?

Sounds like a l2r issue to me

doslekis

Light has shield, heavy face tanks damage, and medium has dodge roll.

I feel squishy in medium but because damage is so high I can keep enough pressure on most enemies to keep them healing or shielding and not damaging me.

The only problem players are the super tank ones who no matter how much i cc and damage, I don't touch their health, and then get burst down from a take flight or something.

Skander

doslekis wrote: »

Light has shield, heavy face tanks damage, and medium has dodge roll.

I feel squishy in medium but because damage is so high I can keep enough pressure on most enemies to keep them healing or shielding and not damaging me.

The only problem players are the super tank ones who no matter how much i cc and damage, I don't touch their health, and then get burst down from a take flight or something.

I agree that medium has rolldodge, but since it cost way more and more the time you use it, and doesn't actually protect you from Soul assault and Pidgeons (dive), it's not on pair with the others.
I also feel that people in medium armor, even with 2.4 - 2.2k stam recovery run out of it, since they heavy attack so much. Is this even possible?

Thogard

lot of people other than NBs use medium armor.

But its a harder playstyle. Rare to see in weaker players. BUt many of the strongest stam players in the warden, DK, sorc, and templar segments are wearing medium armor.

DDuke

Thogard wrote: »

lot of people other than NBs use medium armor.

But its a harder playstyle. Rare to see in weaker players. BUt many of the strongest stam players in the warden, DK, sorc, and templar segments are wearing medium armor.

Is that why there's literally zero medium builds at duel spots?

I know most of the good stam players on EU, and none of them use medium anymore (last few swapped out to heavy couple days ago).

Integral1900

I feel toughest in light armour if I'm honest, shields are what make it work however.

My medium armour alts stack healing to the rafters and they always have a bow, as you lack a shield you simply cannot get close to some enemies, shields give you huge piles of extra slack in a way medium simply can't match

On a side note I geared one dps exactly as normal but with heavy rather than medium, the dps diffrence was negligible.

Skander

Thogard wrote: »

lot of people other than NBs use medium armor.

But its a harder playstyle. Rare to see in weaker players. BUt many of the strongest stam players in the warden, DK, sorc, and templar segments are wearing medium armor.

Nobody uses it outside nbs, who does it dies with ease, let's be serious about it

deepseamk20b14_ESO

doslekis wrote: »

Light has shield, heavy face tanks damage, and medium has dodge roll.

I feel squishy in medium but because damage is so high I can keep enough pressure on most enemies to keep them healing or shielding and not damaging me.

The only problem players are the super tank ones who no matter how much i cc and damage, I don't touch their health, and then get burst down from a take flight or something.

Lol yup. Plenty of these builds are running around cyro. You can play smartly and tactically but no amount of burst touches them and you're like "they sure are tanky, at least they can't burst me down" then suddenly a take flight that hits for 12k, animation cancel executioner and dead. "Wtf just happened?" Lol.

Stamicka

I still use medium on Stamplar and yes, it's very squishy but you can still manage. It definitely needs improvements, I think they should remove the improved sneak passive and put something useful there, cause let's be honest, that whole passive is pretty useless in Cyrodil.

Trinotops

I agree with OP. You can really only pull off medium as a nightblade or in no cp. The only real benefit it has over heavy armor is the better sustain which really isnt that much considering most of it is expended on dodge rolls. Sure dodge roll gives 100% damage immunity against most attacks but all it takes is one well timed stun or a fast and strong skill to put a medium user on the defensive (assuming they survived the burst.) I honestly think that medium is considered weak because of how strong heavy is. Maybe wrath should be changed to help balance things out a bit.

Solariken

If I had to guess I would say ZOS knows that medium is too weak. The problem is that it works perfectly well for stamblade and even the gentlest buff could push stamblade over the top while still not bringing it up to par for the rest.

TL;DR - stamblades are (have always been) the reason we can't have nice things

DDuke

Solariken wrote: »

If I had to guess I would say ZOS knows that medium is too weak. The problem is that it works perfectly well for stamblade and even the gentlest buff could push stamblade over the top while still not bringing it up to par for the rest.

TL;DR - stamblades are (have always been) the reason we can't have nice things

See, I really don't get this argument at all. Medium armor is just as garbage on stamblade as it is on other classes, this is why you see most of the good NB players in heavy armor these days.

All it takes is one player who knows how to prevent you from cloaking (volatile armor spam, sweeps, caltrops, piercing mark etc etc) and you're just like other stam builds, except with no Major Mending or Ritual to get rid of DoTs/Curse/Purifying Light etc - and all it takes is one properly comboed Soul Assault to kill a medium stamblade.

Solariken

DDuke wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

If I had to guess I would say ZOS knows that medium is too weak. The problem is that it works perfectly well for stamblade and even the gentlest buff could push stamblade over the top while still not bringing it up to par for the rest.

TL;DR - stamblades are (have always been) the reason we can't have nice things

See, I really don't get this argument at all. Medium armor is just as garbage on stamblade as it is on other classes, this is why you see most of the good NB players in heavy armor these days.

All it takes is one player who knows how to prevent you from cloaking (volatile armor spam, sweeps, caltrops, piercing mark etc etc) and you're just like other stam builds, except with no Major Mending or Ritual to get rid of DoTs/Curse/Purifying Light etc - and all it takes is one properly comboed Soul Assault to kill a medium stamblade.

Ok in fairness, when Cloak fails or is countered you're probably going to get rekt. However, when Cloak works (which is the vast majority of times), stamblade is nearly god mode.

DDuke

Solariken wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

If I had to guess I would say ZOS knows that medium is too weak. The problem is that it works perfectly well for stamblade and even the gentlest buff could push stamblade over the top while still not bringing it up to par for the rest.

TL;DR - stamblades are (have always been) the reason we can't have nice things

See, I really don't get this argument at all. Medium armor is just as garbage on stamblade as it is on other classes, this is why you see most of the good NB players in heavy armor these days.

All it takes is one player who knows how to prevent you from cloaking (volatile armor spam, sweeps, caltrops, piercing mark etc etc) and you're just like other stam builds, except with no Major Mending or Ritual to get rid of DoTs/Curse/Purifying Light etc - and all it takes is one properly comboed Soul Assault to kill a medium stamblade.

Ok in fairness, when Cloak fails or is countered you're probably going to get rekt. However, when Cloak works (which is the vast majority of times), stamblade is nearly god mode.

I wouldn't go as far as saying "god mode".

Maybe it was something resembling that, back when you could easily instagib anyone from sneak then cloak & repeat - but that damage doesn't exist anymore (Battle Spirit got added, then sneak attack modifier reduced, ultimately removed entirely, proc sets nerfed etc). It's a good ability, but not anymore op than say Streak or Ritual.

Besides, you can cloak even more in heavy armor as you get magicka back from Constitution.

newtinmpls

Skander wrote: »

Nobody uses it outside nbs, who does it dies with ease, let's be serious about it

My Orsimer Battlemage uses medium. He goes for max damage; stamsorc. Pretty much no self-heals, but I run him with my sweeties Breton Templar/Healer and we do lovely as 2 of 4 in veteran content and can pretty much walk through most overland stuff.

Thogard

Trinotops wrote: »

I agree with OP. You can really only pull off medium as a nightblade or in no cp. The only real benefit it has over heavy armor is the better sustain which really isnt that much considering most of it is expended on dodge rolls. Sure dodge roll gives 100% damage immunity against most attacks but all it takes is one well timed stun or a fast and strong skill to put a medium user on the defensive (assuming they survived the burst.) I honestly think that medium is considered weak because of how strong heavy is. Maybe wrath should be changed to help balance things out a bit.

Solariken wrote: »

If I had to guess I would say ZOS knows that medium is too weak. The problem is that it works perfectly well for stamblade and even the gentlest buff could push stamblade over the top while still not bringing it up to par for the rest.

TL;DR - stamblades are (have always been) the reason we can't have nice things

I can think of a few Stam wardens and stamplars that wear medium. The two of you both come to mind... and here I am, a Stam DK that will occasionally throw on medium, but I know a few other Stam DKs that also wear medium. One of them is a pretty popular streamer.

Stam templars especially seem to come in medium if you look at the high end of the skill spectrum. It's not easy to pull off.

DeadlyRecluse

I think part of the problem is a lack of really phenomenal 5piece bonuses in medium at the moment. 5 light can pick up tankiness from transmutation or wizards, 5 heavy can pick up really efficient damage via fury, ravager, 7th legion, etc.

What 2 medium armor sets are so good I would commit to combining them? Bone pirate is great, but I'd rather run that as jewelry and stick with 5 heavy.

SodanTok

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

I think part of the problem is a lack of really phenomenal 5piece bonuses in medium at the moment. 5 light can pick up tankiness from transmutation or wizards, 5 heavy can pick up really efficient damage via fury, ravager, 7th legion, etc.

What 2 medium armor sets are so good I would commit to combining them? Bone pirate is great, but I'd rather run that as jewelry and stick with 5 heavy.

Viper...oh. That is another issue. Closely connected to the fact that every good medium armor set is easily accessible to every stam heavy armor build while the other way is not true. Anything related to stam, stam recovery, wep critical or wep damage will always find place on heavy stam build, but health recovery, health overall, healing taken, physical/spell resist, magicka are far less interesting on medium.
Biggest offender are healthy only jewelry.

Plus running 1light/1medium or 2medium is too far better for heavy than is running anything but 1heavy for medium. Even medium passives bar single one are all working on 1 piece.

Brrrofski

You can achieve the same regen, Stam and weapon damage in heavy as medium if you use certain set combinations.

You get a lot more health, resistances and healing in heavy.

Medium gives you cheaper roll dodge and some reduced cost. You don't have to avoid damage as much in heavy plus heavy attacking and constitution somewhat make up for the reduced cost.

The only thing medium offers really is crit. While important, it's not the be all end all stat in PvP as players wear impen (and flat healing increase in heavy probably outweighs increased chance of crit heals in medium). Plus sets like ravager and 7th legion give you crit as well as being able to use crit pots.

Heavy is a no brainer, which is an issue. Stam NB is the only class that can reliably use medium. A problem lies here - how do you buff medium without it making Stam NB stronger? Stam NBs are already very very strong.

SodanTok

Brrrofski wrote: »

You can achieve the same regen, Stam and weapon damage in heavy as medium if you use certain set combinations.

You get a lot more health, resistances and healing in heavy.

Medium gives you cheaper roll dodge and some reduced cost. You don't have to avoid damage as much in heavy plus heavy attacking and constitution somewhat make up for the reduced cost.

The only thing medium offers really is crit. While important, it's not the be all end all stat in PvP as players wear impen (and flat healing increase in heavy probably outweighs increased chance of crit heals in medium). Plus sets like ravager and 7th legion give you crit as well as being able to use crit pots.

Heavy is a no brainer, which is an issue. Stam NB is the only class that can reliably use medium. A problem lies here - how do you buff medium without it making Stam NB stronger? Stam NBs are already very very strong.

Sure. Existence of stamNB makes balancing medium difficult. I would be understanding if they tried it slow to be careful about NB, or nerfed NB too hard to counter the buff, or failed at it and buffed stamNB hard. Yet I dont see anything happening.
Medium was at the weakest point during Homestead and they nerfed sneak damage, regen, cost reduction, bone pirate and blocking cost with Morrowind. Introduced more undodgeable abilities. Nerfed viper, shadow/thief mundus and increased stat/crit bonuses yet kept damage/regen same (except mundus) in HotR. Medium armor builds have the least amount of % stat increases and they two big passives are regen/damage % increase. Everybody running heavy got more tankier by this change.

Sure, I am nitpicking just some stuff that happened to everyone and/or overall balance. Heavy got much more nerfs than medium. The thing is there was never any attempt to really do something with medium. Everything was just nerf. No matter how small or how it was countered by even bigger nerfs on heavy/light. That does not look to me like someone is even trying.
Well maybe if they want to nerf heavy enough so nobody uses it again, that is the only way to make medium good without touching it.

DDuke

Can someone explain to me why stamblades are suddenly somehow too strong in medium (or any armor type)? Most of them currently use heavy and don't do any better than heavy armor builds of other classes.

Based on my experiences, it's usually just the people who play solo & refuse to run any cloak counters (det pot, AoEs, piercing mark etc) that have problems with NBs.

Or are people still too traumatized about the proc meta? That kind of burst doesn't exist anymore after the nerfs, and other classes are better at sustained DPS.

SirAndy

Skander wrote: »

It needs a buff, people aren't all cloaky NBs, even if the 74% of eso population is.
Before you start with the crying. I play a Magicka templar. So i'm no bias in this

My medium armor Nightblade hasn't had any cloak skills on her bars in the last 3 years.

Not all Nightblades are the sneaky type ...

deepseamk20b14_ESO

even a medium armor NB can be some what tough. I'm not talking "o I'll stand there and eat damage while laughing" but done correctly you can get a good amount of mitigation without really sacrificing much damage or sustain. You just don't get the extra healing heavy armor provides. However stacking some crit and crit damage you end up with the good heals, especially from cloak, and using certain skills and sets goes a long way. An extra 10-16% mitigation is not to be laughed at (compared to your average medium armor NB rocking 16 to 19k resistances). It's not heavy armor equivalent but it helps lol.

Now obviously what I'm about to say is when things go well and under great conditions. Using LoS , shadow image, cloak and other techniques, in 5 seconds I can heal from damn near death to full HP. We all know over 5 seconds is not as good as a burst heal, but that 5 seconds is still pretty damn quick lol.

DDuke

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

even a medium armor NB can be some what tough. I'm not talking "o I'll stand there and eat damage while laughing" but done correctly you can get a good amount of mitigation without really sacrificing much damage or sustain. You just don't get the extra healing heavy armor provides. However stacking some crit and crit damage you end up with the good heals, especially from cloak, and using certain skills and sets goes a long way. An extra 10-16% mitigation is not to be laughed at (compared to your average medium armor NB rocking 16 to 19k resistances). It's not heavy armor equivalent but it helps lol.

Now obviously what I'm about to say is when things go well and under great conditions. Using LoS , shadow image, cloak and other techniques, in 5 seconds I can heal from damn near death to full HP. We all know over 5 seconds is not as good as a burst heal, but that 5 seconds is still pretty damn quick lol.

Yeah, you can run defensive sets just to get equal mitigation with heavy - but you're giving up tons of dmg/healing for it and fall far behind heavy armor that runs offensive sets in that regard.

Also, just fyi cloak doesn't affect healing at all anymore - Shadowy Disguise crit buff gets consumed by the first DoT tick on target (so no crit heals or even crit dmg out of cloak). More on that here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/367271/dot-ticks-ruin-shadowy-disguise#latest

Vapirko

Absolutely it does. Currently no reason to play medium. Fully buffed 5 heavy 2 medium in pvp, after taking a resource I can get 3.5k+ wpn damage, 2.6k stam regen. Max stats of 33k stam and 25k health. Yep zero reason to play medium. Medium need enough of a boost to make it a real burst build, that the lack of armor is worth the amount of damage it can bring. Or a bigger max stat boost or something.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

DDuke wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

even a medium armor NB can be some what tough. I'm not talking "o I'll stand there and eat damage while laughing" but done correctly you can get a good amount of mitigation without really sacrificing much damage or sustain. You just don't get the extra healing heavy armor provides. However stacking some crit and crit damage you end up with the good heals, especially from cloak, and using certain skills and sets goes a long way. An extra 10-16% mitigation is not to be laughed at (compared to your average medium armor NB rocking 16 to 19k resistances). It's not heavy armor equivalent but it helps lol.

Now obviously what I'm about to say is when things go well and under great conditions. Using LoS , shadow image, cloak and other techniques, in 5 seconds I can heal from damn near death to full HP. We all know over 5 seconds is not as good as a burst heal, but that 5 seconds is still pretty damn quick lol.

Yeah, you can run defensive sets just to get equal mitigation with heavy - but you're giving up tons of dmg/healing for it and fall far behind heavy armor that runs offensive sets in that regard.

Also, just fyi cloak doesn't affect healing at all anymore - Shadowy Disguise crit buff gets consumed by the first DoT tick on target (so no crit heals or even crit dmg out of cloak). More on that here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/367271/dot-ticks-ruin-shadowy-disguise#latest

I read that the other day. I tested rending slashes/blood craze and shadow image a couple of days ago and I couldn't get it to consume my crit using vigor and rally as my heal. I only tested those because I don't use any others. My heals still crit. Not sure what I did differently but it still worked fine for me unless my screen is lying to me.

For defense it's not that much damage honestly. Mirage for little extra, pirate skeleton shoulder brings me to almost 23k (with shadow barrier of course) though removing something like kena or velidreth so yeah, take off 129 weapon damage. So of course not heavys equivalent but you can use a S&B front bar and get closer to 26k and still only lose 100ish weapon damage which tool tip wise only loses you 150ish damage. It's not optimal and I don't go sword and board but it's possible lol. I just won't do it because I'm a numbers fanatic and I like the high damage numbers.

I had a heavy based set I used for awhile, 5 hundings 5 bone pirate. I liked it but still found my medium armor build hit much harder and felt more sustain. I have hope they will buff medium one day.

Skander

What heavy should be is: Huge damage mitigation and recources. Very low damage output
What light should be: Huge damage burst. Very low survavability
What medium should be: Good damage output, kinda good damage survavability

Thogard

They need to buff medium's sustain.

I have a full set of medium impregnable armor in sturdy trait. I have the exact same thing in heavy armor... so please believe me when I say my comparison is fair... I'm literally running the same build but with either medium or heavy armor..

I have better sustain in heavy. It's true. The only scenarios where I don't are when I'm sprinting all over the place. Maybe if I was a red guard then mediums cost reduction would be better, but ATM, for my 2h / shield orc Stam DK, I have better sustain on my heavy armor.

But I do hit harder in medium. I run troll king and clever alchemist as my other two sets, and if I can get a beast trap off, which is pretty reliable with practice, then I can really knock some people down with my 2h nirnhoned great sword.

But it would be even better if I was a Templar. Or in werewolf form. Really anything that stacks weapon damage is made better by medium armor.

But I prefer heavy personally because of constitution. I'm not a stamplar so the 12% wep dmg isn't as big a deal for me. And I don't dodge roll for defense - I block - so constitution is crucial to me.