Abilities which might need to be addressed aswell in the CwC Patch

fred4

DDuke wrote: »

Not so extreme, even the usual duel pet sorc gets to 90k with Shadowrend+Necropotence+Grace - trust me, that build is not sacrificing any defense.

I had set up such a sorc in UESP with Julianos + Necropotence and everything thrown into spell damage. This could get to 90K, maybe a bit more with weapon enchant. Defense, sure, but zero sustain. I guess some people play these types of builds ... they just don't seem very viable to me. I imagine it's constant shield / heavy attack inbetween trying to burst. And the stamina sustain ... from Dark Deal? It wouldn't be my cup of tea at least.

fred4

70K is more like what I do, when my magblade is fully buffed. You sorcs! I can use DOTs, sure, maybe wait for a Skoria proc, but I don't have Curse, Fury, Implosion and slow-travelling Frags to stack with SA. I think Implosion, in particular, is such BS. As if the active skills (Fury) weren't enough. So here's my suggestion how to fix Soul Assault: Sorcs, Wardens, and Templars, all those people with the delayed attacks, they're not allowed to use it. Only magblades. There. Fixed. I mean, what you're really saying is that sorcs are able to stack too much burst, as if anything else was new .

DDuke

fred4 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Not so extreme, even the usual duel pet sorc gets to 90k with Shadowrend+Necropotence+Grace - trust me, that build is not sacrificing any defense.

I had set up such a sorc in UESP with Julianos + Necropotence and everything thrown into spell damage. This could get to 90K, maybe a bit more with weapon enchant. Defense, sure, but zero sustain. I guess some people play these types of builds ... they just don't seem very viable to me. I imagine it's constant shield / heavy attack inbetween trying to burst. And the stamina sustain ... from Dark Deal? It wouldn't be my cup of tea at least.

Sustain is a matter of playstyle, and you don't need it at all after your opponent(s) are dead.

Less regen more dmg=more heavy attack weaves, less light attack weaves - more burst dmg (and healing/shields), less sustained dmg

And viceversa, if you build for high sustain.

Of course, trying to play a high dmg build with high sustain playstyle leads to a disaster - but high dmg builds are extremely viable when manouvered properly.

IAVITNI

fred4 wrote: »

70K is more like what I do, when my magblade is fully buffed. You sorcs! I can use DOTs, sure, maybe wait for a Skoria proc, but I don't have Curse, Fury, Implosion and slow-travelling Frags to stack with SA. I think Implosion, in particular, is such BS. As if the active skills (Fury) weren't enough. So here's my suggestion how to fix Soul Assault: Sorcs, Wardens, and Templars, all those people with the delayed attacks, they're not allowed to use it. Only magblades. There. Fixed. I mean, what you're really saying is that sorcs are able to stack too much burst, as if anything else was new .

You somehow skip over the point.

A single SA won't kill a good player. What it will do is leave them ~50% health and with 10%-15% stamina, assuming they had a full stamina pool (~35k) to begin with and that they were blocking + spamming heals. The moment you get to less than 50% health and no resource its gg against a good opponent.

Now consider that a good opponent is going to do more than just SA. Then consider that a smart opponent, knowing how SA works vs medium is going to try to get you to spend some resources before casting. Now instead of ending up with ~50% health and no stamina, you now end up in execute range with no stamina.

If I could heal up after someone used an SA against me on a medium build I wouldn't mind SA and wouldn't advocate for a nerf. But the fact is you can't if your opponent is even half decent.

fred4

That last post was written in jest, of course.

I have not played my medium armor stam DK in some time. Yes, SA was nasty, but it wasn't quite as bad as you make out. Every build will have their own way of dealing with it. In my case, absent my ultimate, I would block, use Vigor, and I had Troll King, which would promptly activate. I was also one of a few stam DKs using wings, negating other ranged attacks (at least frags). Half the time I would use Corrosive Armor, which allows you to completely ignore SA and counter-attack. Incidentally, I was a DW / 2H DK, not using 1H + S.

While I love trying to counter every other build, I don't like whining too much about ones that I can't. I try to find solutions. I have mentioned a load of them in this thread, and none of them seem to be good enough for you. I don't completely disagree. I get that SA is a bit too strong against medium armor, but it seems to be one of those skills that is very hard to balance. A bit like cloak. When it works it's very strong, but with too many bugs or counters, it quickly becomes useless. That's what I'd be afraid of if you could, for example, interrupt SA again.

SodanTok

fred4 wrote: »

That last post was written in jest, of course.

I have not played my medium armor stam DK in some time. Yes, SA was nasty, but it wasn't quite as bad as you make out. Every build will have their own way of dealing with it. In my case, absent my ultimate, I would block, use Vigor, and I had Troll King, which would promptly activate. I was also one of a few stam DKs using wings, negating other ranged attacks (at least frags). Half the time I would use Corrosive Armor, which allows you to completely ignore SA and counter-attack. Incidentally, I was a DW / 2H DK, not using 1H + S.

While I love trying to counter every other build, I don't like whining too much about ones that I can't. I try to find solutions. I have mentioned a load of them in this thread, and none of them seem to be good enough for you. I don't completely disagree. I get that SA is a bit too strong against medium armor, but it seems to be one of those skills that is very hard to balance. A bit like cloak. When it works it's very strong, but with too many bugs or counters, it quickly becomes useless. That's what I'd be afraid of if you could, for example, interrupt SA again.

I think you are missing the point (maybe you werent playing that medium stam DK since Morrowind?). Most people can deal with the damage (it being the ultimate) and undodgeability (it being the counter to it), what medium cant deal with is blocking (which no matter how hard you try to find another, is still the only viable form of defense in 90% of situations where somebody is casting it).
Either you lose half your stamina and half your HP or you lose all your HP. There is nothing inbetween. I cannot surprise CC the caster like some destro casters that forgot to drink immunity. I cant outrun it. I cant stop enemy from casting it. I cant even prepare for it. There is clear big gain every time you use soul assault no matter how bad you are. And the more people are around you the more definitive victory it is. Just casting it off 'cooldown' (without making any synergy or combo) will net you the win automatically in 2-3 casts if your enemy is not far better than you.

i know what I am talking about, I used this ulti, on stam toon in heavy armor during homestead (before resources started to matter and before blocking costed twice more) and I just had so easy time killing anyone (in medium). Sure, most of people dying werent some stellar players, but I literally did nothing to outplay them. I let them drop to ~80% hp, casted poison injection, casted CC, casted soul assault and if they did not have cloak (coz only NB can do it) or healbot templar assistance they would die.

Health can be always replenished if you survive, but the stamina loss is usually forever. If you could organize fight between two same skilled opponent, but average (relative to cyrodiil population) and the fight lasted for 2m with average of 50% winrate. You could get it down to 30sec with ~70% winrate for the soul assaulter.

fred4

I have not used my stam DK, in serious combat, since before Morrowind. Block now gets charged twice as often as before, every 0.25 seconds? Do I remember that right? SA ticks every 0.5 seconds, though, right? Hmm. Should that not be the same block cost as before, on account of SA "only" ticking every 0.5 secs? This is off the top of my head. I can't remember the figures. Are you telling me it now costs more to block?

SodanTok

fred4 wrote: »

I have not used my stam DK, in serious combat, since before Morrowind. Block now gets charged twice as often as before, every 0.25 seconds? Do I remember that right? SA ticks every 0.5 seconds, though, right? Hmm. Should that not be the same block cost as before, on account of SA "only" ticking every 0.5 secs? This is off the top of my head. I can't remember the figures. Are you telling me it now costs more to block?

I dont remember if block is 0.5 and SA is 0.5 or they are both 0.25, but I know for a fact one soul assault will proc every block tick possible.

//edit:
As DDuke pointed out, it is 0.43. That means it guarantees each tick will cost block. Where before Morrowind every second tick would cost nothing. It went from ~8k stamina (and 1-3 regen ticks) to ~16k stamina (and 1-3 regen ticks), while all resource changes made each point of lost stamina even more impactful.

DDuke

fred4 wrote: »

I have not used my stam DK, in serious combat, since before Morrowind. Block now gets charged twice as often as before, every 0.25 seconds? Do I remember that right? SA ticks every 0.5 seconds, though, right? Hmm. Should that not be the same block cost as before, on account of SA "only" ticking every 0.5 secs? This is off the top of my head. I can't remember the figures. Are you telling me it now costs more to block?

SA ticks every .43 seconds (8 ticks over 3.5 seconds).

Another reason it wasn't as much of a problem before Morrowind is because people ran the risk of getting demolished by the proc meta builds while channeling it. That's not the case anymore.

STEVIL

Neoauspex wrote: »

Sorc: nerf shield breaker
Magplar: nerf defile
Stamblade: nerf soul assault
Paper: nerf scissors

Can we stop asking to nerf the exact thing meant to counter your build? Just play solitaire if you want to win no matter what.

last time i played solitaire i lost so... nerf the deck.

Frankly though, i think the deck had cheat engine installed.

fred4

Thank you for the information! I now understand where you are all coming from.

Skander

Do not worry guys, we have a new agony now!
And sorcs can now go trough block.
Balance!

brandonv516

You're ideas are sending us down a dark road that will ultimately ruin PvP for solo players.

You should work for Kim Jong Un. His ideas are getting him ultimately towards something too.

Brutusmax1mus

pieratsos wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

No. We cant. Make a skill that will just kill anyone holding block. It would be a counter to blocking, so I guess it would be fine?

This is a false equivalence (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence) since all classes/builds can block and none of the cited ESO examples of counters automatically kills a player. I urge everybody, regardless of this specific debate, to read the Wikipedia article on logical fallacies and avoid resorting to them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

Did you just read some article and suddenly see fallacies everywhere?
I think you should reread it. Plus I never said something instantly killing block user is same as those you listed. I just stated that would still be counter. That was you that said that people should not complain about counters to their build.

Soul assault is closer to instakill than to defile on magplar. Two soul assaults are instakill for medium builds. Not that you would understand that. You dont play those builds.

Getting hit with any two non dodgeable ultimates is going to hurt. But anyways soul assault just specifically counters your main defensive ability.

Yes, soul assault specifically counters dodge because its undodgeable and it should stay that way. That still doesnt excuse the fact that u cant interrupt it, cc the caster, snares to [snip], drains more than half of ur stamina and still doing too much dmg even through block. Thats not what you call balanced.

Different types of abilities (channels, projectiles etc) were designed with certain mechanics as a counter to keep those abilities in check. When you introduce abilities that completely ignore the mechanics that are meant to keep them in check then you are going to have a problem.

To make it more simple for you. If someone is stupid enough to soul strike point blank in ur face, you should be able to bash his head off.

Getting close to someone is the easiest thing in PvP. F
Gap closers and immunities are literally everywhere. It used to be bashable as it was garbage.

Soul assault is strong, it could go for a cost increase perhaps so it's not constantly up. I dueled a mag warden on my 2h bow stam blade and he used it every 15 to 20 seconds it seemed. In a 2 min fight that's a lot to deal with. If i was built for pure dmg, i could see how I'd stand no chance to recover. But im not, troll king, 2.3k regen, and cp made dealing with it easy. He should have been using dawn breaker or the bear imo.

[Edited for quote]

BohnT

brandonv516 wrote: »

You're ideas are sending us down a dark road that will ultimately ruin PvP for solo players.

You should work for Kim Jong Un. His ideas are getting him ultimately towards something too.

No as much as these abilities help you in small-scale ( except Soul Assault) they can ruin your whole small-scale fight easily.
You have to kill people fast in small-scale, survive and burst the next but with these ults it's easy doable that there is no time where a solo player could kill another player.

1 tree spammer or 1 resto ult spammer can keep 8 people easily alive against 1-3 enemies.
And they don't have to be dedicated healers with 1 skill slot one player can completely remove small scale.

And we haven't talked about duels. There is no chance to win a duel against someone competent spamming restoult or 1h&s ult.

DDuke

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

No. We cant. Make a skill that will just kill anyone holding block. It would be a counter to blocking, so I guess it would be fine?

This is a false equivalence (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence) since all classes/builds can block and none of the cited ESO examples of counters automatically kills a player. I urge everybody, regardless of this specific debate, to read the Wikipedia article on logical fallacies and avoid resorting to them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

Did you just read some article and suddenly see fallacies everywhere?
I think you should reread it. Plus I never said something instantly killing block user is same as those you listed. I just stated that would still be counter. That was you that said that people should not complain about counters to their build.

Soul assault is closer to instakill than to defile on magplar. Two soul assaults are instakill for medium builds. Not that you would understand that. You dont play those builds.

Getting hit with any two non dodgeable ultimates is going to hurt. But anyways soul assault just specifically counters your main defensive ability.

Yes, soul assault specifically counters dodge because its undodgeable and it should stay that way. That still doesnt excuse the fact that u cant interrupt it, cc the caster, snares to [snip], drains more than half of ur stamina and still doing too much dmg even through block. Thats not what you call balanced.

Different types of abilities (channels, projectiles etc) were designed with certain mechanics as a counter to keep those abilities in check. When you introduce abilities that completely ignore the mechanics that are meant to keep them in check then you are going to have a problem.

To make it more simple for you. If someone is stupid enough to soul strike point blank in ur face, you should be able to bash his head off.

Getting close to someone is the easiest thing in PvP. F
Gap closers and immunities are literally everywhere. It used to be bashable as it was garbage.

Soul assault is strong, it could go for a cost increase perhaps so it's not constantly up. I dueled a mag warden on my 2h bow stam blade and he used it every 15 to 20 seconds it seemed. In a 2 min fight that's a lot to deal with. If i was built for pure dmg, i could see how I'd stand no chance to recover. But im not, troll king, 2.3k regen, and cp made dealing with it easy. He should have been using dawn breaker or the bear imo.

Medium 2H/Bow stamblade? If so, that magicka warden really needs to re-evaluate his build/playstyle.

It's mathematically impossible to survive (Swarm DoT)->Shalks->Birds+Soul Assault as a medium stamblade (when used after Rally expires/is consumed), even with Troll King which heals through 2k of the 15k+ dmg you'll be taking through block/vigor from a 100k tooltip Soul Assault.

Also, not using Selene (or Skoria) means you'll probably never be able to kill a good shield stacker as stamblade.

[Edited for quote]

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

Also, not using Selene (or Skoria) means you'll probably never be able to kill a good shield stacker as *medium armor stamblade.

Added an inportant bit there

It´s really just medium. Put on heavy and you´re playing a whole new game.

Brutusmax1mus

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

No. We cant. Make a skill that will just kill anyone holding block. It would be a counter to blocking, so I guess it would be fine?

This is a false equivalence (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence) since all classes/builds can block and none of the cited ESO examples of counters automatically kills a player. I urge everybody, regardless of this specific debate, to read the Wikipedia article on logical fallacies and avoid resorting to them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

Did you just read some article and suddenly see fallacies everywhere?
I think you should reread it. Plus I never said something instantly killing block user is same as those you listed. I just stated that would still be counter. That was you that said that people should not complain about counters to their build.

Soul assault is closer to instakill than to defile on magplar. Two soul assaults are instakill for medium builds. Not that you would understand that. You dont play those builds.

Getting hit with any two non dodgeable ultimates is going to hurt. But anyways soul assault just specifically counters your main defensive ability.

Yes, soul assault specifically counters dodge because its undodgeable and it should stay that way. That still doesnt excuse the fact that u cant interrupt it, cc the caster, snares to [snip], drains more than half of ur stamina and still doing too much dmg even through block. Thats not what you call balanced.

Different types of abilities (channels, projectiles etc) were designed with certain mechanics as a counter to keep those abilities in check. When you introduce abilities that completely ignore the mechanics that are meant to keep them in check then you are going to have a problem.

To make it more simple for you. If someone is stupid enough to soul strike point blank in ur face, you should be able to bash his head off.

Getting close to someone is the easiest thing in PvP. F
Gap closers and immunities are literally everywhere. It used to be bashable as it was garbage.

Soul assault is strong, it could go for a cost increase perhaps so it's not constantly up. I dueled a mag warden on my 2h bow stam blade and he used it every 15 to 20 seconds it seemed. In a 2 min fight that's a lot to deal with. If i was built for pure dmg, i could see how I'd stand no chance to recover. But im not, troll king, 2.3k regen, and cp made dealing with it easy. He should have been using dawn breaker or the bear imo.

Medium 2H/Bow stamblade? If so, that magicka warden really needs to re-evaluate his build/playstyle.

It's mathematically impossible to survive (Swarm DoT)->Shalks->Birds+Soul Assault as a medium stamblade (when used after Rally expires/is consumed), even with Troll King which heals through 2k of the 15k+ dmg you'll be taking through block/vigor from a 100k tooltip Soul Assault.

Also, not using Selene (or Skoria) means you'll probably never be able to kill a good shield stacker as stamblade.

My regen with troll king is 3.3k, will tick 2 times during a soul assault. Resolving vigor ticks for 1.5k 3 Times. Rally like 900 twice.

6.6, 4.5, 1800= about 13k hp. I can cloak off a third of the damage and stamina drain. I haven't used a potion yet either. If my opponent got me into a position where Ive just used rally and a potion back to back, he/ she is doing something well, and me wrong. Half the time i only use pots to give myself major expedition. My build is fairly self sustaining.

No i don't have insane dps, but i handle soul assault just fine.

Bow heavy, poison injection, ambush, light attack fear all hits at once. Follow with an unblocked relentless focus and an incap. Execute. Enemy only took dmg for 3 seconds. 1 is where they can't defend themselves. That burst gets through shields just fine. I can use the same premises you assume (the soul assault user is out playing the reciever) and tell you I'm bursting as shields expire. If course it doesn't always look like that.

Theory and practice are different. You've done the math for me. And you assumed the person had no rally or potion available and is out of stamina afterwards. That individual is getting out played. My build is not in that situation very often due to regen, its a build issue.

[Edited for quote]

DDuke

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

No. We cant. Make a skill that will just kill anyone holding block. It would be a counter to blocking, so I guess it would be fine?

This is a false equivalence (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence) since all classes/builds can block and none of the cited ESO examples of counters automatically kills a player. I urge everybody, regardless of this specific debate, to read the Wikipedia article on logical fallacies and avoid resorting to them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

Did you just read some article and suddenly see fallacies everywhere?
I think you should reread it. Plus I never said something instantly killing block user is same as those you listed. I just stated that would still be counter. That was you that said that people should not complain about counters to their build.

Soul assault is closer to instakill than to defile on magplar. Two soul assaults are instakill for medium builds. Not that you would understand that. You dont play those builds.

Getting hit with any two non dodgeable ultimates is going to hurt. But anyways soul assault just specifically counters your main defensive ability.

Yes, soul assault specifically counters dodge because its undodgeable and it should stay that way. That still doesnt excuse the fact that u cant interrupt it, cc the caster, snares to [snip], drains more than half of ur stamina and still doing too much dmg even through block. Thats not what you call balanced.

Different types of abilities (channels, projectiles etc) were designed with certain mechanics as a counter to keep those abilities in check. When you introduce abilities that completely ignore the mechanics that are meant to keep them in check then you are going to have a problem.

To make it more simple for you. If someone is stupid enough to soul strike point blank in ur face, you should be able to bash his head off.

Getting close to someone is the easiest thing in PvP. F
Gap closers and immunities are literally everywhere. It used to be bashable as it was garbage.

Soul assault is strong, it could go for a cost increase perhaps so it's not constantly up. I dueled a mag warden on my 2h bow stam blade and he used it every 15 to 20 seconds it seemed. In a 2 min fight that's a lot to deal with. If i was built for pure dmg, i could see how I'd stand no chance to recover. But im not, troll king, 2.3k regen, and cp made dealing with it easy. He should have been using dawn breaker or the bear imo.

Medium 2H/Bow stamblade? If so, that magicka warden really needs to re-evaluate his build/playstyle.

It's mathematically impossible to survive (Swarm DoT)->Shalks->Birds+Soul Assault as a medium stamblade (when used after Rally expires/is consumed), even with Troll King which heals through 2k of the 15k+ dmg you'll be taking through block/vigor from a 100k tooltip Soul Assault.

Also, not using Selene (or Skoria) means you'll probably never be able to kill a good shield stacker as stamblade.

My regen with troll king is 3.3k, will tick 2 times during a soul assault. Resolving vigor ticks for 1.5k 3 Times. Rally like 900 twice.

It's actually 3069 with legendary food, 3510 on an orc/khajiit character and it doesn't tick twice (unless you get lucky) during a Soul Assault, it ticks once (the channel duration is 3.5s, not 4s) - same for Rally.

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

6.63.3, 4.5, 900= about 8,7k hp. I can cloak off a third of the damage and stamina drain. I haven't used a potion yet either. If my opponent got me into a position where Ive just used rally and a potion back to back, he/ she is doing something well, and me wrong. Half the time i only use pots to give myself major expedition. My build is fairly self sustaining.

Or maybe you haven't been fighting anyone decent - food for thought.

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

No i don't have insane dps, but i handle soul assault just fine.

Bow heavy, poison injection, ambush, light attack fear all hits at once. Follow with an unblocked relentless focus and an incap. Execute. Enemy only took dmg for 3 seconds. 1 is where they can't defend themselves. That burst gets through shields just fine. I can use the same premises you assume (the soul assault user is out playing the reciever) and tell you I'm bursting as shields expire. If course it doesn't always look like that.

Ok, definitely not fighting anyone decent.

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Theory and practice are different. You've done the math for me. And you assumed the person had no rally or potion available and is out of stamina afterwards. That individual is getting out played. My build is not in that situation very often due to regen, its a build issue.

No, I assumed the opponent has brains and uses Soul Assault when it's a guaranteed kill.

If you don't have to use potions on pretty much cooldown as a medium stamblade just to stay alive, it's possible you might actually be fighting keep guards rather than actual players. Might want to check that.


Oh, also feel free to visit any duel spot & fight... well, almost anyone. Doesn't end well for medium builds, that's why 99% are in light/heavy.

[Edited for quote]

brandonv516

BohnT wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

You're ideas are sending us down a dark road that will ultimately ruin PvP for solo players.

You should work for Kim Jong Un. His ideas are getting him ultimately towards something too.

No as much as these abilities help you in small-scale ( except Soul Assault) they can ruin your whole small-scale fight easily.
You have to kill people fast in small-scale, survive and burst the next but with these ults it's easy doable that there is no time where a solo player could kill another player.

1 tree spammer or 1 resto ult spammer can keep 8 people easily alive against 1-3 enemies.
And they don't have to be dedicated healers with 1 skill slot one player can completely remove small scale.

And we haven't talked about duels. There is no chance to win a duel against someone competent spamming restoult or 1h&s ult.

So your argument is that I shouldn't have anything to help get away from several enemies fighting me. Okay I'm done here. No point in arguing.

Duels are duels and many people spec specifically for them - if you can't beat them with restoration ultimate or 1h/s ultimate then you might want to spec more for duels. I don't have any issues with either.

Brutusmax1mus

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

No. We cant. Make a skill that will just kill anyone holding block. It would be a counter to blocking, so I guess it would be fine?

This is a false equivalence (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence) since all classes/builds can block and none of the cited ESO examples of counters automatically kills a player. I urge everybody, regardless of this specific debate, to read the Wikipedia article on logical fallacies and avoid resorting to them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

Did you just read some article and suddenly see fallacies everywhere?
I think you should reread it. Plus I never said something instantly killing block user is same as those you listed. I just stated that would still be counter. That was you that said that people should not complain about counters to their build.

Soul assault is closer to instakill than to defile on magplar. Two soul assaults are instakill for medium builds. Not that you would understand that. You dont play those builds.

Getting hit with any two non dodgeable ultimates is going to hurt. But anyways soul assault just specifically counters your main defensive ability.

Yes, soul assault specifically counters dodge because its undodgeable and it should stay that way. That still doesnt excuse the fact that u cant interrupt it, cc the caster, snares to [snip], drains more than half of ur stamina and still doing too much dmg even through block. Thats not what you call balanced.

Different types of abilities (channels, projectiles etc) were designed with certain mechanics as a counter to keep those abilities in check. When you introduce abilities that completely ignore the mechanics that are meant to keep them in check then you are going to have a problem.

To make it more simple for you. If someone is stupid enough to soul strike point blank in ur face, you should be able to bash his head off.

Getting close to someone is the easiest thing in PvP. F
Gap closers and immunities are literally everywhere. It used to be bashable as it was garbage.

Soul assault is strong, it could go for a cost increase perhaps so it's not constantly up. I dueled a mag warden on my 2h bow stam blade and he used it every 15 to 20 seconds it seemed. In a 2 min fight that's a lot to deal with. If i was built for pure dmg, i could see how I'd stand no chance to recover. But im not, troll king, 2.3k regen, and cp made dealing with it easy. He should have been using dawn breaker or the bear imo.

Medium 2H/Bow stamblade? If so, that magicka warden really needs to re-evaluate his build/playstyle.

It's mathematically impossible to survive (Swarm DoT)->Shalks->Birds+Soul Assault as a medium stamblade (when used after Rally expires/is consumed), even with Troll King which heals through 2k of the 15k+ dmg you'll be taking through block/vigor from a 100k tooltip Soul Assault.

Also, not using Selene (or Skoria) means you'll probably never be able to kill a good shield stacker as stamblade.

My regen with troll king is 3.3k, will tick 2 times during a soul assault. Resolving vigor ticks for 1.5k 3 Times. Rally like 900 twice.

It's actually 3069 with legendary food, 3510 on an orc/khajiit character and it doesn't tick twice (unless you get lucky) during a Soul Assault, it ticks once (the channel duration is 3.5s, not 4s) - same for Rally.

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

6.63.3, 4.5, 900= about 8,7k hp. I can cloak off a third of the damage and stamina drain. I haven't used a potion yet either. If my opponent got me into a position where Ive just used rally and a potion back to back, he/ she is doing something well, and me wrong. Half the time i only use pots to give myself major expedition. My build is fairly self sustaining.

Or maybe you haven't been fighting anyone decent - food for thought.

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

No i don't have insane dps, but i handle soul assault just fine.

Bow heavy, poison injection, ambush, light attack fear all hits at once. Follow with an unblocked relentless focus and an incap. Execute. Enemy only took dmg for 3 seconds. 1 is where they can't defend themselves. That burst gets through shields just fine. I can use the same premises you assume (the soul assault user is out playing the reciever) and tell you I'm bursting as shields expire. If course it doesn't always look like that.

Ok, definitely not fighting anyone decent.

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Theory and practice are different. You've done the math for me. And you assumed the person had no rally or potion available and is out of stamina afterwards. That individual is getting out played. My build is not in that situation very often due to regen, its a build issue.

No, I assumed the opponent has brains and uses Soul Assault when it's a guaranteed kill.

If you don't have to use potions on pretty much cooldown as a medium stamblade just to stay alive, it's possible you might actually be fighting keep guards rather than actual players. Might want to check that.


Oh, also feel free to visit any duel spot & fight... well, almost anyone. Doesn't end well for medium builds, that's why 99% are in light/heavy.

I'm khajiit.
If troll king tics any where from 0.01 to 1.4 seconds into the soul assault it will in fact tic twice. There is only a .6 second window where it will not tic twice. Same for rally. More often then not you will get 2 tics. I'll take the odds. not sure how you neglect this.

You're giving to Much benefit of the doubt to the opponent in your scenarios in my opinion. There is plenty a player can do to deny combos.

I use expedition/ immovable pots, when i need them. Chugging pots isn't necessary,l unless you build for no sustain, which many medium users do, ill admit.

Heavy armor is a better choice for stamina in cyro, i agree. Doesnt mean medium user's are free kills like you make it sound.

I'd appreciate If you stopped trying to insult me or my opponents. I could careless what you think you know of me, my play, or my builds. Trying to insult me by stating I'm fighting guards brings no strength to what you're saying. Might want to check your ego.

[Edited for quote]

DDuke

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

No. We cant. Make a skill that will just kill anyone holding block. It would be a counter to blocking, so I guess it would be fine?

This is a false equivalence (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence) since all classes/builds can block and none of the cited ESO examples of counters automatically kills a player. I urge everybody, regardless of this specific debate, to read the Wikipedia article on logical fallacies and avoid resorting to them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

Did you just read some article and suddenly see fallacies everywhere?
I think you should reread it. Plus I never said something instantly killing block user is same as those you listed. I just stated that would still be counter. That was you that said that people should not complain about counters to their build.

Soul assault is closer to instakill than to defile on magplar. Two soul assaults are instakill for medium builds. Not that you would understand that. You dont play those builds.

Getting hit with any two non dodgeable ultimates is going to hurt. But anyways soul assault just specifically counters your main defensive ability.

Yes, soul assault specifically counters dodge because its undodgeable and it should stay that way. That still doesnt excuse the fact that u cant interrupt it, cc the caster, snares to [snip], drains more than half of ur stamina and still doing too much dmg even through block. Thats not what you call balanced.

Different types of abilities (channels, projectiles etc) were designed with certain mechanics as a counter to keep those abilities in check. When you introduce abilities that completely ignore the mechanics that are meant to keep them in check then you are going to have a problem.

To make it more simple for you. If someone is stupid enough to soul strike point blank in ur face, you should be able to bash his head off.

Getting close to someone is the easiest thing in PvP. F
Gap closers and immunities are literally everywhere. It used to be bashable as it was garbage.

Soul assault is strong, it could go for a cost increase perhaps so it's not constantly up. I dueled a mag warden on my 2h bow stam blade and he used it every 15 to 20 seconds it seemed. In a 2 min fight that's a lot to deal with. If i was built for pure dmg, i could see how I'd stand no chance to recover. But im not, troll king, 2.3k regen, and cp made dealing with it easy. He should have been using dawn breaker or the bear imo.

Medium 2H/Bow stamblade? If so, that magicka warden really needs to re-evaluate his build/playstyle.

It's mathematically impossible to survive (Swarm DoT)->Shalks->Birds+Soul Assault as a medium stamblade (when used after Rally expires/is consumed), even with Troll King which heals through 2k of the 15k+ dmg you'll be taking through block/vigor from a 100k tooltip Soul Assault.

Also, not using Selene (or Skoria) means you'll probably never be able to kill a good shield stacker as stamblade.

My regen with troll king is 3.3k, will tick 2 times during a soul assault. Resolving vigor ticks for 1.5k 3 Times. Rally like 900 twice.

It's actually 3069 with legendary food, 3510 on an orc/khajiit character and it doesn't tick twice (unless you get lucky) during a Soul Assault, it ticks once (the channel duration is 3.5s, not 4s) - same for Rally.

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

6.63.3, 4.5, 900= about 8,7k hp. I can cloak off a third of the damage and stamina drain. I haven't used a potion yet either. If my opponent got me into a position where Ive just used rally and a potion back to back, he/ she is doing something well, and me wrong. Half the time i only use pots to give myself major expedition. My build is fairly self sustaining.

Or maybe you haven't been fighting anyone decent - food for thought.

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

No i don't have insane dps, but i handle soul assault just fine.

Bow heavy, poison injection, ambush, light attack fear all hits at once. Follow with an unblocked relentless focus and an incap. Execute. Enemy only took dmg for 3 seconds. 1 is where they can't defend themselves. That burst gets through shields just fine. I can use the same premises you assume (the soul assault user is out playing the reciever) and tell you I'm bursting as shields expire. If course it doesn't always look like that.

Ok, definitely not fighting anyone decent.

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Theory and practice are different. You've done the math for me. And you assumed the person had no rally or potion available and is out of stamina afterwards. That individual is getting out played. My build is not in that situation very often due to regen, its a build issue.

No, I assumed the opponent has brains and uses Soul Assault when it's a guaranteed kill.

If you don't have to use potions on pretty much cooldown as a medium stamblade just to stay alive, it's possible you might actually be fighting keep guards rather than actual players. Might want to check that.


Oh, also feel free to visit any duel spot & fight... well, almost anyone. Doesn't end well for medium builds, that's why 99% are in light/heavy.

I'm khajiit.
If troll king tics any where from 0.01 to 1.4 seconds into the soul assault it will in fact tic twice. There is only a .6 second window where it will not tic twice. Same for rally. More often then not you will get 2 tics. I'll take the odds. not sure how you neglect this.

You're giving to Much benefit of the doubt to the opponent in your scenarios in my opinion. There is plenty a player can do to deny combos.

I use expedition/ immovable pots, when i need them. Chugging pots isn't necessary,l unless you build for no sustain, which many medium users do, ill admit.

Heavy armor is a better choice for stamina in cyro, i agree. Doesnt mean medium user's are free kills like you make it sound.

I'd appreciate If you stopped trying to insult me or my opponents. I could careless what you think you know of me, my play, or my builds. Trying to insult me by stating I'm fighting guards brings no strength to what you're saying. Might want to check your ego.

Actually, you also have to be below 50% health & get a Vigor/Rally tick that doesn't bring you over 50% in order to even activate Troll King - something I completely overlooked. A big reason on why the set sucks on a medium armor build btw.

So chances are your Troll King boosted health regen won't tick even once during a 3.5s Soul Assault, let alone twice.

It's not my intention to insult anyone, but bringing up misinformation like you're doing helps no one.


What I'm trying to say is that beating bad opponents (sorry, that's just the only way to say it) doesn't prove problems don't exist, and just how broken Soul Assault is when properly used is pretty common knowledge amongst the more experienced players (which is why none of them use medium in a duel spot for example).

I.e. of course some random zergling on a 3k magicka regen build casting Soul Assault on you is not a problem, but same ultimate from a high magicka/spell dmg build is unsurvivable in non-S&B medium when it's properly comboed with DoTs & delayed burst skills (Curse, Purifying Light etc). And there's pretty much nothing you can do to prevent it, except killing your opponent before Soul Assault happens (good luck with a regen build lol).
That's not an opinion nor a matter of debate - that's a fact.

[Edited for quote]

Brutusmax1mus

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

No. We cant. Make a skill that will just kill anyone holding block. It would be a counter to blocking, so I guess it would be fine?

This is a false equivalence (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence) since all classes/builds can block and none of the cited ESO examples of counters automatically kills a player. I urge everybody, regardless of this specific debate, to read the Wikipedia article on logical fallacies and avoid resorting to them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

Did you just read some article and suddenly see fallacies everywhere?
I think you should reread it. Plus I never said something instantly killing block user is same as those you listed. I just stated that would still be counter. That was you that said that people should not complain about counters to their build.

Soul assault is closer to instakill than to defile on magplar. Two soul assaults are instakill for medium builds. Not that you would understand that. You dont play those builds.

Getting hit with any two non dodgeable ultimates is going to hurt. But anyways soul assault just specifically counters your main defensive ability.

Yes, soul assault specifically counters dodge because its undodgeable and it should stay that way. That still doesnt excuse the fact that u cant interrupt it, cc the caster, snares to [snip], drains more than half of ur stamina and still doing too much dmg even through block. Thats not what you call balanced.

Different types of abilities (channels, projectiles etc) were designed with certain mechanics as a counter to keep those abilities in check. When you introduce abilities that completely ignore the mechanics that are meant to keep them in check then you are going to have a problem.

To make it more simple for you. If someone is stupid enough to soul strike point blank in ur face, you should be able to bash his head off.

Getting close to someone is the easiest thing in PvP. F
Gap closers and immunities are literally everywhere. It used to be bashable as it was garbage.

Soul assault is strong, it could go for a cost increase perhaps so it's not constantly up. I dueled a mag warden on my 2h bow stam blade and he used it every 15 to 20 seconds it seemed. In a 2 min fight that's a lot to deal with. If i was built for pure dmg, i could see how I'd stand no chance to recover. But im not, troll king, 2.3k regen, and cp made dealing with it easy. He should have been using dawn breaker or the bear imo.

Medium 2H/Bow stamblade? If so, that magicka warden really needs to re-evaluate his build/playstyle.

It's mathematically impossible to survive (Swarm DoT)->Shalks->Birds+Soul Assault as a medium stamblade (when used after Rally expires/is consumed), even with Troll King which heals through 2k of the 15k+ dmg you'll be taking through block/vigor from a 100k tooltip Soul Assault.

Also, not using Selene (or Skoria) means you'll probably never be able to kill a good shield stacker as stamblade.

My regen with troll king is 3.3k, will tick 2 times during a soul assault. Resolving vigor ticks for 1.5k 3 Times. Rally like 900 twice.

It's actually 3069 with legendary food, 3510 on an orc/khajiit character and it doesn't tick twice (unless you get lucky) during a Soul Assault, it ticks once (the channel duration is 3.5s, not 4s) - same for Rally.

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

6.63.3, 4.5, 900= about 8,7k hp. I can cloak off a third of the damage and stamina drain. I haven't used a potion yet either. If my opponent got me into a position where Ive just used rally and a potion back to back, he/ she is doing something well, and me wrong. Half the time i only use pots to give myself major expedition. My build is fairly self sustaining.

Or maybe you haven't been fighting anyone decent - food for thought.

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

No i don't have insane dps, but i handle soul assault just fine.

Bow heavy, poison injection, ambush, light attack fear all hits at once. Follow with an unblocked relentless focus and an incap. Execute. Enemy only took dmg for 3 seconds. 1 is where they can't defend themselves. That burst gets through shields just fine. I can use the same premises you assume (the soul assault user is out playing the reciever) and tell you I'm bursting as shields expire. If course it doesn't always look like that.

Ok, definitely not fighting anyone decent.

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Theory and practice are different. You've done the math for me. And you assumed the person had no rally or potion available and is out of stamina afterwards. That individual is getting out played. My build is not in that situation very often due to regen, its a build issue.

No, I assumed the opponent has brains and uses Soul Assault when it's a guaranteed kill.

If you don't have to use potions on pretty much cooldown as a medium stamblade just to stay alive, it's possible you might actually be fighting keep guards rather than actual players. Might want to check that.


Oh, also feel free to visit any duel spot & fight... well, almost anyone. Doesn't end well for medium builds, that's why 99% are in light/heavy.

I'm khajiit.
If troll king tics any where from 0.01 to 1.4 seconds into the soul assault it will in fact tic twice. There is only a .6 second window where it will not tic twice. Same for rally. More often then not you will get 2 tics. I'll take the odds. not sure how you neglect this.

You're giving to Much benefit of the doubt to the opponent in your scenarios in my opinion. There is plenty a player can do to deny combos.

I use expedition/ immovable pots, when i need them. Chugging pots isn't necessary,l unless you build for no sustain, which many medium users do, ill admit.

Heavy armor is a better choice for stamina in cyro, i agree. Doesnt mean medium user's are free kills like you make it sound.

I'd appreciate If you stopped trying to insult me or my opponents. I could careless what you think you know of me, my play, or my builds. Trying to insult me by stating I'm fighting guards brings no strength to what you're saying. Might want to check your ego.

Actually, you also have to be below 50% health & get a Vigor/Rally tick that doesn't bring you over 50% in order to even activate Troll King - something I completely overlooked. A big reason on why the set sucks on a medium armor build btw.

So chances are your Troll King boosted health regen won't tick even once during a 3.5s Soul Assault, let alone twice.

It's not my intention to insult anyone, but bringing up misinformation like you're doing helps no one.


What I'm trying to say is that beating bad opponents (sorry, that's just the only way to say it) doesn't prove problems don't exist, and just how broken Soul Assault is when properly used is pretty common knowledge amongst the more experienced players (which is why none of them use medium in a duel spot for example).

I.e. of course some random zergling on a 3k magicka regen build casting Soul Assault on you is not a problem, but same ultimate from a high magicka/spell dmg build is unsurvivable in non-S&B medium when it's properly comboed with DoTs & delayed burst skills (Curse, Purifying Light etc). And there's pretty much nothing you can do to prevent it, except killing your opponent before Soul Assault happens (good luck with a regen build lol).
That's not an opinion nor a matter of debate - that's a fact.

There you go reciting theory again. Without defile ill recover that 50% health in 1 cloak with heal crits, then i have it for about 6 seconds.

The fights about how you implement your skills vs how you allow the opponent thiers.

It's not as cut and dry as u make it is my point. Think I've never been hit with vamp bane, pol, and soul assaulted? Sure i have, and I've died to it before, but it's not even close to being an instant kill on medium builds that don't invest everything into damage. Sure it hurts, but so will any burst combo and ultimate.

[Edited for quote]

DDuke

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

No. We cant. Make a skill that will just kill anyone holding block. It would be a counter to blocking, so I guess it would be fine?

This is a false equivalence (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence) since all classes/builds can block and none of the cited ESO examples of counters automatically kills a player. I urge everybody, regardless of this specific debate, to read the Wikipedia article on logical fallacies and avoid resorting to them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

Did you just read some article and suddenly see fallacies everywhere?
I think you should reread it. Plus I never said something instantly killing block user is same as those you listed. I just stated that would still be counter. That was you that said that people should not complain about counters to their build.

Soul assault is closer to instakill than to defile on magplar. Two soul assaults are instakill for medium builds. Not that you would understand that. You dont play those builds.

Getting hit with any two non dodgeable ultimates is going to hurt. But anyways soul assault just specifically counters your main defensive ability.

Yes, soul assault specifically counters dodge because its undodgeable and it should stay that way. That still doesnt excuse the fact that u cant interrupt it, cc the caster, snares to [snip], drains more than half of ur stamina and still doing too much dmg even through block. Thats not what you call balanced.

Different types of abilities (channels, projectiles etc) were designed with certain mechanics as a counter to keep those abilities in check. When you introduce abilities that completely ignore the mechanics that are meant to keep them in check then you are going to have a problem.

To make it more simple for you. If someone is stupid enough to soul strike point blank in ur face, you should be able to bash his head off.

Getting close to someone is the easiest thing in PvP. F
Gap closers and immunities are literally everywhere. It used to be bashable as it was garbage.

Soul assault is strong, it could go for a cost increase perhaps so it's not constantly up. I dueled a mag warden on my 2h bow stam blade and he used it every 15 to 20 seconds it seemed. In a 2 min fight that's a lot to deal with. If i was built for pure dmg, i could see how I'd stand no chance to recover. But im not, troll king, 2.3k regen, and cp made dealing with it easy. He should have been using dawn breaker or the bear imo.

Medium 2H/Bow stamblade? If so, that magicka warden really needs to re-evaluate his build/playstyle.

It's mathematically impossible to survive (Swarm DoT)->Shalks->Birds+Soul Assault as a medium stamblade (when used after Rally expires/is consumed), even with Troll King which heals through 2k of the 15k+ dmg you'll be taking through block/vigor from a 100k tooltip Soul Assault.

Also, not using Selene (or Skoria) means you'll probably never be able to kill a good shield stacker as stamblade.

My regen with troll king is 3.3k, will tick 2 times during a soul assault. Resolving vigor ticks for 1.5k 3 Times. Rally like 900 twice.

It's actually 3069 with legendary food, 3510 on an orc/khajiit character and it doesn't tick twice (unless you get lucky) during a Soul Assault, it ticks once (the channel duration is 3.5s, not 4s) - same for Rally.

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

6.63.3, 4.5, 900= about 8,7k hp. I can cloak off a third of the damage and stamina drain. I haven't used a potion yet either. If my opponent got me into a position where Ive just used rally and a potion back to back, he/ she is doing something well, and me wrong. Half the time i only use pots to give myself major expedition. My build is fairly self sustaining.

Or maybe you haven't been fighting anyone decent - food for thought.

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

No i don't have insane dps, but i handle soul assault just fine.

Bow heavy, poison injection, ambush, light attack fear all hits at once. Follow with an unblocked relentless focus and an incap. Execute. Enemy only took dmg for 3 seconds. 1 is where they can't defend themselves. That burst gets through shields just fine. I can use the same premises you assume (the soul assault user is out playing the reciever) and tell you I'm bursting as shields expire. If course it doesn't always look like that.

Ok, definitely not fighting anyone decent.

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Theory and practice are different. You've done the math for me. And you assumed the person had no rally or potion available and is out of stamina afterwards. That individual is getting out played. My build is not in that situation very often due to regen, its a build issue.

No, I assumed the opponent has brains and uses Soul Assault when it's a guaranteed kill.

If you don't have to use potions on pretty much cooldown as a medium stamblade just to stay alive, it's possible you might actually be fighting keep guards rather than actual players. Might want to check that.


Oh, also feel free to visit any duel spot & fight... well, almost anyone. Doesn't end well for medium builds, that's why 99% are in light/heavy.

I'm khajiit.
If troll king tics any where from 0.01 to 1.4 seconds into the soul assault it will in fact tic twice. There is only a .6 second window where it will not tic twice. Same for rally. More often then not you will get 2 tics. I'll take the odds. not sure how you neglect this.

You're giving to Much benefit of the doubt to the opponent in your scenarios in my opinion. There is plenty a player can do to deny combos.

I use expedition/ immovable pots, when i need them. Chugging pots isn't necessary,l unless you build for no sustain, which many medium users do, ill admit.

Heavy armor is a better choice for stamina in cyro, i agree. Doesnt mean medium user's are free kills like you make it sound.

I'd appreciate If you stopped trying to insult me or my opponents. I could careless what you think you know of me, my play, or my builds. Trying to insult me by stating I'm fighting guards brings no strength to what you're saying. Might want to check your ego.

Actually, you also have to be below 50% health & get a Vigor/Rally tick that doesn't bring you over 50% in order to even activate Troll King - something I completely overlooked. A big reason on why the set sucks on a medium armor build btw.

So chances are your Troll King boosted health regen won't tick even once during a 3.5s Soul Assault, let alone twice.

It's not my intention to insult anyone, but bringing up misinformation like you're doing helps no one.


What I'm trying to say is that beating bad opponents (sorry, that's just the only way to say it) doesn't prove problems don't exist, and just how broken Soul Assault is when properly used is pretty common knowledge amongst the more experienced players (which is why none of them use medium in a duel spot for example).

I.e. of course some random zergling on a 3k magicka regen build casting Soul Assault on you is not a problem, but same ultimate from a high magicka/spell dmg build is unsurvivable in non-S&B medium when it's properly comboed with DoTs & delayed burst skills (Curse, Purifying Light etc). And there's pretty much nothing you can do to prevent it, except killing your opponent before Soul Assault happens (good luck with a regen build lol).
That's not an opinion nor a matter of debate - that's a fact.

There you go reciting theory again. Without defile ill recover that 50% health in 1 cloak with heal crits, then i have it for about 6 seconds.

The fights about how you implement your skills vs how you allow the opponent thiers.

It's not as cut and dry as u make it is my point. Think I've never been hit with vamp bane, pol, and soul assaulted? Sure i have, and I've died to it before, but it's not even close to being an instant kill on medium builds that don't invest everything into damage. Sure it hurts, but so will any burst combo and ultimate.

And more bs, how surprising.

If you're lucky enough that your cloak works against the opponent, Shadowy Disguise doesn't give you crit heals if you've got even one DoT on the target (first DoT tick consumes the buff, it's bugged and the wrong morph to use currently) - let alone heal you to full (or enough) before that Curse/Purifying Light/Unstable Core/Shalks proc, uncloak & kill you.


You do realize that those medium builds that invest everything into damage also invest everything into healing by doing so?

If I don't outheal the Soul Assault *** while blocking with 7 impen & 5k weapon dmg Vigor, then you sure as hell won't with same mitigation, but half the Vigor strength. It's really that simple.

[Edited for quote]

mb10

For Nightblades:
Funnel Health in Siphoning shouldnt be reflectable by DK wings imo if you look at the other skills that arent
Crisppling Grasp is too slow
Mark Target should restore Magicka, not health.
Sap Essence is way too expensive to have build diversity. Magicka nightblades are all too similar in their playstyles.

For the rest:
Shield Ult is ridiculous, as is Soul Assault.

Cleanse from Support should remove more than 2 negative effects

Impulse should maybe do more damage from Destro

BohnT

Consuming Darkness, Nova and Dragon Knight Standard all Need to be buffed.

Consuming Darkness: Let all morphs deal the dot of Veil of blades and increase the radius to 8m and let it heal you if you are low on health but only for 50% of the synergy value
Veil of Blade: Keep the dot damage but add a burst dot, like curse, every 5 seconds that deals 3x the damage of the dot to anyone in the circle

Nova: Lower the cost to 150 and increase the damage by 15%

Dragon Knight Standard: Lower the cost to 200 for both Morphs
Shifting Standard: When moving the Standard apply burning to all enemies in it's old Location
Standard of might: When using the ability deal x flame damage ufront to all enemies in the radius

ak_pvp

mb10 wrote: »

For Nightblades:
Funnel Health in Siphoning shouldnt be reflectable by DK wings imo if you look at the other skills that arent
Crisppling Grasp is too slow
Mark Target should restore Magicka, not health.
Sap Essence is way too expensive to have build diversity. Magicka nightblades are all too similar in their playstyles.

For the rest:
Shield Ult is ridiculous, as is Soul Assault.

Cleanse from Support should remove more than 2 negative effects

Impulse should maybe do more damage from Destro

Rest ok

1. Nononononononooo.

Everything bar meteor should be reflected for the price, projectile and time limit of wings.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

fred4 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

smh when people state LOS as some kind of Soul Assault counter - you're snared by 70% and the whole thing is over before you get behind any obstacle

Then you don't have the mindset of some of the opponents I face in IC. Some - I assume the ones who 1vX a lot - always draw you into places where they can LoS with one dodge roll. They assume your buddies will show up any second. I guess I might not pursue, but really it's in my own interest to do the same. It's constantly around fences in Temple District, in and out of buildings, or from one floor to another. In that environment SA is not a really good skill.

You keep saying IC, Cyrodiil is not The Imperial City. Cyrodiil is very open and offers little in way of LoS in most places where fights break out. Not to say there is none it’s just not ever present on the killing ground like IC. In IC you may chase a runner in Cyrodiil you would be running into a five man gank team.