Consider raising market (guild trader) tax to 35%

Vimora

Have you ever posted something at a really friendly price and thought of yourself as a fair trader who gives the small guy a chance to get something really neat? Well, stop doing that, because I venture to say 95% of the time those deals go to re-sellers who make vast fortunes off your good will. Money you can't even imagine.

There are addons out there, popular ones, that, when installed, post real-time market information of everything you see to their creators. Imagine if you could monitor every guild trader through thousands of eyes and get a real-time feed of all the great deals. This is what is happening. The small guy never stood a chance. Raising market taxes to 35% to stop re-selling would put an end to this.

Orjix

I don't think raising the tax is going to "fix" anything

seedubsrun

That doesn't seem like a fix and only takes into account PC anyway. Console has no such add-ons available plus console has far more guilds charging weekly dues so a raise in taxes would just be a straight up slap in the face for no reason. Buying low and selling high is the back bone of playing the market and isn't an issue. It's the sellers job to price things competitively but that doesn't happen a lot due to several factors such as wanting it to move quickly, trader zones that are more or less busy, and not understanding/not caring really about the value of an item.

sylviermoone

I think you might misunderstand how the popular trade add-ons work.

anitajoneb17_ESO

That's the reality of the market. In the game as well as IRL.
Well, in the game, it's rather fun. IRL is another story entirely. That's why we shouldn't leave things up the markets entirely. Unfortunately, many alternatives to markets have proven to lead to even worse results and behaviours.

We're not supposed to talk politics in here, so I'll leave it at that, but yeah, your experience is, unfortunately, very true.

anitajoneb17_ESO

sylviermoone wrote: »

I think you might misunderstand how the popular trade add-ons work.

It's not an add-on issue. Well yes, some add-ons make it easier, but even without add-ons, the story is the same. If you sell something cheap with the idea to help the little guy, the big guy is very likely to benefit from it rather than the little guy. That's how the market works. And taxation isn't going to change any of it.

Datolite

Vimora wrote: »

There are addons out there, popular ones, that, when installed, post real-time market information of everything you see to their creators.

Are you talking about TTC?

There will always be re-sellers. In fact, I like the fact that there is a way you can play the market in this game. The new retrait system is gonna help balance that out, too, so I don't think an extra tax would help at all.

Vimora

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

That's the reality of the market. In the game as well as IRL.
Well, in the game, it's rather fun. IRL is another story entirely. That's why we shouldn't leave things up the markets entirely. Unfortunately, many alternatives to markets have proven to lead to even worse results and behaviours.

We're not supposed to talk politics in here, so I'll leave it at that, but yeah, your experience is, unfortunately, very true.

Other games that set market taxes high do it to prevent this kind of behavior by making re-selling unviable. People complain about this a lot, that's how I suspect it's actually working. Also, if you make an addon for specifically this purpose, chances are you might be running a goldselling network as well, so this is actually a rl criminal act.

Turelus

Personally I think guilds should be able to set their own taxes.

Means they have something else to compete with vs sustaining and also means guilds who want to fund just their own banks can set it to 100%

zaria

Vimora wrote: »

Have you ever posted something at a really friendly price and thought of yourself as a fair trader who gives the small guy a chance to get something really neat? Well, stop doing that, because I venture to say 95% of the time those deals go to re-sellers who make vast fortunes off your good will. Money you can't even imagine.

There are addons out there, popular ones, that, when installed, post real-time market information of everything you see to their creators. Imagine if you could monitor every guild trader through thousands of eyes and get a real-time feed of all the great deals. This is what is happening. The small guy never stood a chance. Raising market taxes to 35% to stop re-selling would put an end to this.

The addons let you see who set are popular and who blueprints and recipes are expensive
People who farm and trade a lot know this prices better than casuals so an casual can sell an sharpened necropotense staff for 1000 gold. Or he fill up trader slots with overpriced stuff who don't sell.
In short power main effect is that casual traders know reasonable prices and don't get fooled.

Increasing the taxes would move the more expensive items out in zone chat making it far more work to buy stuff.
It would also increase the prices as the seller will pocket the 35% tax after selling in zone, that is unless he scammed you.

its two addons who is common, one is master mercant who only works on sales in guilds you are member of, the other is tamriel trade center who have an external database over items listed for sale, TTC also has an web page there you can search.

In short you are wrong twice, firs addons help the little guy, second increasing tax increase prices same as in real world.

Vimora

zaria wrote: »

Vimora wrote: »

Have you ever posted something at a really friendly price and thought of yourself as a fair trader who gives the small guy a chance to get something really neat? Well, stop doing that, because I venture to say 95% of the time those deals go to re-sellers who make vast fortunes off your good will. Money you can't even imagine.

There are addons out there, popular ones, that, when installed, post real-time market information of everything you see to their creators. Imagine if you could monitor every guild trader through thousands of eyes and get a real-time feed of all the great deals. This is what is happening. The small guy never stood a chance. Raising market taxes to 35% to stop re-selling would put an end to this.

The addons let you see who set are popular and who blueprints and recipes are expensive
People who farm and trade a lot know this prices better than casuals so an casual can sell an sharpened necropotense staff for 1000 gold. Or he fill up trader slots with overpriced stuff who don't sell.
In short power main effect is that casual traders know reasonable prices and don't get fooled.

Increasing the taxes would move the more expensive items out in zone chat making it far more work to buy stuff.
It would also increase the prices as the seller will pocket the 35% tax after selling in zone, that is unless he scammed you.

its two addons who is common, one is master mercant who only works on sales in guilds you are member of, the other is tamriel trade center who have an external database over items listed for sale, TTC also has an web page there you can search.

In short you are wrong twice, firs addons help the little guy, second increasing tax increase prices same as in real world.

I can see your point there. But I have to disagree that these addons help the user in any way. With TTC, for example, you get delayed listings displayed on a website for the general public, while it's a possibility that the people behind the scenes get a feed that's much closer to real-time. Basically they might have the info very quickly, you have the info once they're done exploiting it. It looks good an the surface but is rotten underneath.

sylviermoone

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

sylviermoone wrote: »

I think you might misunderstand how the popular trade add-ons work.

It's not an add-on issue. Well yes, some add-ons make it easier, but even without add-ons, the story is the same. If you sell something cheap with the idea to help the little guy, the big guy is very likely to benefit from it rather than the little guy. That's how the market works. And taxation isn't going to change any of it.

I understand very well how this system works, and no, taxation isn't going to change that. I was directly referring to this statement in the OP:

Vimora wrote: »

There are addons out there, popular ones, that, when installed, post real-time market information of everything you see to their creators. Imagine if you could monitor every guild trader through thousands of eyes and get a real-time feed of all the great deals. This is what is happening. The small guy never stood a chance. Raising market taxes to 35% to stop re-selling would put an end to this.

I'm going to presume OP is mainly talking about TTC here, though they do say "addons", plural, so they could also be talking about MM. Certainly, one could think that the creator of TTC has the ability to monitor every trade guild out there for deals....except they can't manage to sort sold items OUT of the results on the website at this point, nor does TTC have the capability to recognize multiple scans of the same item, and will post it as multiple items. Besides that, in order to get all that information, one would STILL need to visit and scan EVERY KIOSK IN THE GAME. That is not an insignificant amount of time.

Let's presume OP is also talking about Master Merchant. MM doesn't habe ANY capability to passively alert ANYONE about deals in the guild store. You still need to physically be looking at the guild store. Add to that the information MM can give you is reliant solely on the sales history of the guilds you are in, so what looks like an epically good deal to one person isn't going to look like an epically good deal to all.

My point is: There is not an add-on that is going to put a notice on anyone's screen that says "@somefreakingguy just posted a Ring of Vicious Moneymaking at Some Guild in Some Location for hella cheap!!! OMG GO BUY IT NAO!!!!!!!!!" Believing this is possible represents a serious misunderstanding of how these programs work. Nobody is getting a "real time feed" about what is underpriced. I'd be willing to posit that whoever is running the TTC scan (which could absolutely be someone other than the TTC dev) is the person that is benefiting from finding said underpriced item.

Yes, flipping happens. It happens A LOT, and it will happen in any game where there is a player run economy. No, raising taxes isn't going to change that, though I would like to see taxes raised in general. But saying that the add-on devs have some sort of special information that other people don't have is incorrect.

Wrecking_Blow_Spam

Not gunna lie it is pretty fun buying an item for 1-30k then reselling it for 100-200k

purple-magicb16_ESO

If it's a sellers market then buyers need to shop around. Go to guild storefronts other than those located in Deshaan, Wayrest and Rawl'ka. I feel like most players go to these locations and pay whatever they charge instead of giving other guilds in other locations a chance. It's not the resellers per se that are running up prices but rather the lazy shoppers that enable them. If I can't sell an item at a particular price then I have no choice but to lower that price just to move the item.

Vimora

sylviermoone wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

sylviermoone wrote: »

I think you might misunderstand how the popular trade add-ons work.

It's not an add-on issue. Well yes, some add-ons make it easier, but even without add-ons, the story is the same. If you sell something cheap with the idea to help the little guy, the big guy is very likely to benefit from it rather than the little guy. That's how the market works. And taxation isn't going to change any of it.

I understand very well how this system works, and no, taxation isn't going to change that. I was directly referring to this statement in the OP:

Vimora wrote: »

There are addons out there, popular ones, that, when installed, post real-time market information of everything you see to their creators. Imagine if you could monitor every guild trader through thousands of eyes and get a real-time feed of all the great deals. This is what is happening. The small guy never stood a chance. Raising market taxes to 35% to stop re-selling would put an end to this.

I'm going to presume OP is mainly talking about TTC here, though they do say "addons", plural, so they could also be talking about MM. Certainly, one could think that the creator of TTC has the ability to monitor every trade guild out there for deals....except they can't manage to sort sold items OUT of the results on the website at this point, nor does TTC have the capability to recognize multiple scans of the same item, and will post it as multiple items. Besides that, in order to get all that information, one would STILL need to visit and scan EVERY KIOSK IN THE GAME. That is not an insignificant amount of time.

Let's presume OP is also talking about Master Merchant. MM doesn't habe ANY capability to passively alert ANYONE about deals in the guild store. You still need to physically be looking at the guild store. Add to that the information MM can give you is reliant solely on the sales history of the guilds you are in, so what looks like an epically good deal to one person isn't going to look like an epically good deal to all.

My point is: There is not an add-on that is going to put a notice on anyone's screen that says "@somefreakingguy just posted a Ring of Vicious Moneymaking at Some Guild in Some Location for hella cheap!!! OMG GO BUY IT NAO!!!!!!!!!" Believing this is possible represents a serious misunderstanding of how these programs work. Nobody is getting a "real time feed" about what is underpriced. I'd be willing to posit that whoever is running the TTC scan (which could absolutely be someone other than the TTC dev) is the person that is benefiting from finding said underpriced item.

Yes, flipping happens. It happens A LOT, and it will happen in any game where there is a player run economy. No, raising taxes isn't going to change that, though I would like to see taxes raised in general. But saying that the add-on devs have some sort of special information that other people don't have is incorrect.

I get where you're coming from. My point is we don't know what specific addons are capable of, we only know what they say they are capable of. The reason I'm talking in plural is because we don't even know what an addon really does, we only know what they tell us it does. You might install an addon that's supposed to just show you the time of the in-game day, but in reality it's collecting and transferring all sorts of information you don't have a clue about.

Anyway, it's ZOS's game, I'm sure they know about this. They do whatever serves them best. :P

anitajoneb17_ESO

Vimora wrote: »

I get where you're coming from. My point is we don't know what specific addons are capable of, we only know what they say they are capable of. The reason I'm talking in plural is because we don't even know what an addon really does, we only know what they tell us it does. You might install an addon that's supposed to just show you the time of the in-game day, but in reality it's collecting and transferring all sorts of information you don't have a clue about.

That's a little bit paranoid.
The esoui platform is pretty careful in checking what add-ons do and don't, especially when it comes to sending informations to 3rd parties. They don't feed databases without your knowledge.
The behaviours you're witnessing are simple basic market behaviours, that's all. Add-ons play a very small role in it, if any at all.

rhapsodious

If you have enough desire to spend hours shopping around at guild stores for the best prices, I think you deserve the profit you get from flipping. People in the big traders generally know better than to undersell, and going to all the little traders involves, well, porting all over the place and going to each guild trader in the middle of nowhere.

zaria

Vimora wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Vimora wrote: »

Have you ever posted something at a really friendly price and thought of yourself as a fair trader who gives the small guy a chance to get something really neat? Well, stop doing that, because I venture to say 95% of the time those deals go to re-sellers who make vast fortunes off your good will. Money you can't even imagine.

There are addons out there, popular ones, that, when installed, post real-time market information of everything you see to their creators. Imagine if you could monitor every guild trader through thousands of eyes and get a real-time feed of all the great deals. This is what is happening. The small guy never stood a chance. Raising market taxes to 35% to stop re-selling would put an end to this.

The addons let you see who set are popular and who blueprints and recipes are expensive
People who farm and trade a lot know this prices better than casuals so an casual can sell an sharpened necropotense staff for 1000 gold. Or he fill up trader slots with overpriced stuff who don't sell.
In short power main effect is that casual traders know reasonable prices and don't get fooled.

Increasing the taxes would move the more expensive items out in zone chat making it far more work to buy stuff.
It would also increase the prices as the seller will pocket the 35% tax after selling in zone, that is unless he scammed you.

its two addons who is common, one is master mercant who only works on sales in guilds you are member of, the other is tamriel trade center who have an external database over items listed for sale, TTC also has an web page there you can search.

In short you are wrong twice, firs addons help the little guy, second increasing tax increase prices same as in real world.

I can see your point there. But I have to disagree that these addons help the user in any way. With TTC, for example, you get delayed listings displayed on a website for the general public, while the people behind the scenes get a feed that's much closer to real-time. Basically they have the info very quickly, you have the info once they're done exploiting it. It looks good an the surface but is rotten underneath.

Any proof TTC is rigged? Yes its an possibility but fairly easy to check, how long from posting an item at an popular trader to it shows up on the web page or in the TTC addon,

This can be tested by two players.
one who putt up an pretty rare item for sale.
one who browse the item with TTC, I assume you either have to put item up for sale or browse the item for it to enter the database. Now check the web page
If an +1 minute delay you might also have 3rd player seeing then an similar item in his inventory has updated TTC data.

Yes they might be a bit sneaky and only delay expensive and under priced items. Still possible to test, you need an pretty dead guild with an trader in the wilderness, one player post an expensive and under priced item, the other player browses it and the first player cancel sale.

Still an conspiracy only work if unknown, if TTC has an backdoor its just a few players who have access, 10 is a lot here as some might stop playing and spill the information.

idk

Orjix wrote: »

I don't think raising the tax is going to "fix" anything

Exactly. The only reason I can see someone complaining as we see in the OP is they are pricing their items to return a great profit and aren't concerned about when it sells.

If I want to pride somethyfo sell fast I will and it's absurd to think raising the guild tax further is a good idea.

Vimora

rhapsodious wrote: »

If you have enough desire to spend hours shopping around at guild stores for the best prices, I think you deserve the profit you get from flipping. People in the big traders generally know better than to undersell, and going to all the little traders involves, well, porting all over the place and going to each guild trader in the middle of nowhere.

I know and I never said re-sellers are evil. I'm just saying when you have tools at your disposal to bypass all of that legwork, because you know exactly what is posted where and when, it's a different story, imo.

Feanor

What's bad about reselling for a higher price? You're not forced to buy anything in this game. If you save time spent on farming by buying something, that convenience often comes with a premium. You always have the choice and can farm stuff yourself. Besides, gold isn't exactly scarce in the state of ESO's economy. 200k are not what it used to be in 2014.

Vimora

zaria wrote: »

Vimora wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Vimora wrote: »

Have you ever posted something at a really friendly price and thought of yourself as a fair trader who gives the small guy a chance to get something really neat? Well, stop doing that, because I venture to say 95% of the time those deals go to re-sellers who make vast fortunes off your good will. Money you can't even imagine.

There are addons out there, popular ones, that, when installed, post real-time market information of everything you see to their creators. Imagine if you could monitor every guild trader through thousands of eyes and get a real-time feed of all the great deals. This is what is happening. The small guy never stood a chance. Raising market taxes to 35% to stop re-selling would put an end to this.

The addons let you see who set are popular and who blueprints and recipes are expensive
People who farm and trade a lot know this prices better than casuals so an casual can sell an sharpened necropotense staff for 1000 gold. Or he fill up trader slots with overpriced stuff who don't sell.
In short power main effect is that casual traders know reasonable prices and don't get fooled.

Increasing the taxes would move the more expensive items out in zone chat making it far more work to buy stuff.
It would also increase the prices as the seller will pocket the 35% tax after selling in zone, that is unless he scammed you.

its two addons who is common, one is master mercant who only works on sales in guilds you are member of, the other is tamriel trade center who have an external database over items listed for sale, TTC also has an web page there you can search.

In short you are wrong twice, firs addons help the little guy, second increasing tax increase prices same as in real world.

I can see your point there. But I have to disagree that these addons help the user in any way. With TTC, for example, you get delayed listings displayed on a website for the general public, while the people behind the scenes get a feed that's much closer to real-time. Basically they have the info very quickly, you have the info once they're done exploiting it. It looks good an the surface but is rotten underneath.

Any proof TTC is rigged? Yes its an possibility but fairly easy to check, how long from posting an item at an popular trader to it shows up on the web page or in the TTC addon,

This can be tested by two players.
one who putt up an pretty rare item for sale.
one who browse the item with TTC, I assume you either have to put item up for sale or browse the item for it to enter the database. Now check the web page
If an +1 minute delay you might also have 3rd player seeing then an similar item in his inventory has updated TTC data.

Yes they might be a bit sneaky and only delay expensive and under priced items. Still possible to test, you need an pretty dead guild with an trader in the wilderness, one player post an expensive and under priced item, the other player browses it and the first player cancel sale.

Still an conspiracy only work if unknown, if TTC has an backdoor its just a few players who have access, 10 is a lot here as some might stop playing and spill the information.

Pretty much my thinking. Anyway, I just want to say that I didn't mean to point fingers in this thread. Other posters mentioned TTC first and I reacted to it because it's undoubtedly the most obvious example of an addon that this kind of price-tracking can be done.

What is the most important rule of getting rich in real life? It's that you have to have other people working towards your goal and make them feel they benefit from it. TTC utilizes this exact principle when they use the data collected by the thousands of people using the addon.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Vimora wrote: »

What is the most important rule of getting rich in real life? It's that you have to have other people working towards your goal and make them feel they benefit from it. TTC utilizes this exact principle when they use the data collected by the thousands of people using the addon.

Just remember that most add-on authors do A LOT of work, for free, just to help the community. And possibly, even very likely, the author of TTC too. It's not very rewarding for them, to say the least, to have those suspicious comments around them all the time. Many of them give up maintaining or improving their code because of all the criticisms, doubts, threats and demands they get. We might well end up with no addons at all if we're not careful with our wording.

Also, remember that not all addons are public, nor made available to the whole community. If a handful of goldsellers decide to f** up the markets in ESO, they can write their own addon and keep it to themselves. All it takes is a dozen people visiting traders all day long. And, come to think of it, it doesn't even require an add-on.

Feanor

Writing an Addon and maintaining a database to get rich in a video game. I need more tinfoil.

Vimora

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Vimora wrote: »

I get where you're coming from. My point is we don't know what specific addons are capable of, we only know what they say they are capable of. The reason I'm talking in plural is because we don't even know what an addon really does, we only know what they tell us it does. You might install an addon that's supposed to just show you the time of the in-game day, but in reality it's collecting and transferring all sorts of information you don't have a clue about.

That's a little bit paranoid.
The esoui platform is pretty careful in checking what add-ons do and don't, especially when it comes to sending informations to 3rd parties. They don't feed databases without your knowledge.
The behaviours you're witnessing are simple basic market behaviours, that's all. Add-ons play a very small role in it, if any at all.

esoui don't even care to take down addons that are no longer maintained and are no longer working in-game such as market data relay

OC_Justice

How about making items purchased through Guild trader one time unable to be resold through guild trader. This would end any reselling whatsoever and would put an end to a lot of major price rigging/controlling.

IcyDeadPeople

If you want to help beginner players, just find one and give them something they actually can use. Posting random stuff below average selling price on your trader is not exactly the most efficient way to help beginner players.

Feanor

OC_Justice wrote: »

How about making items purchased through Guild trader one time unable to be resold through guild trader. This would end any reselling whatsoever and would put an end to a lot of major price rigging/controlling.

Actually this discussion is very similar to the calling for skill nerfs. It's almost always players who can't pull off something who want something changed. I still don't see the problem if someone resells for a higher price. There is a limit the market will pay.

SydneyGrey

It's your job to make sure you don't price your stuff so low that it will get snapped up by resellers. You have to know how much your item is worth, or else not complain if it's bought by a reseller.

Hortator Indoril Nerevar

Um.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Vimora wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Vimora wrote: »

I get where you're coming from. My point is we don't know what specific addons are capable of, we only know what they say they are capable of. The reason I'm talking in plural is because we don't even know what an addon really does, we only know what they tell us it does. You might install an addon that's supposed to just show you the time of the in-game day, but in reality it's collecting and transferring all sorts of information you don't have a clue about.

That's a little bit paranoid.
The esoui platform is pretty careful in checking what add-ons do and don't, especially when it comes to sending informations to 3rd parties. They don't feed databases without your knowledge.
The behaviours you're witnessing are simple basic market behaviours, that's all. Add-ons play a very small role in it, if any at all.

esoui don't even care to take down addons that are no longer maintained and are no longer working in-game such as market data relay

If they don't work anymore, why should they bother with them... ? It's common practice in software development to leave older versions available. Doesn't mean they're negligent with current addons.