Horns of the Reach - Non-Pet-Sorc ?

Deyoz

Hey guys,

First: sorry, but I hate pets

Obviously, you get incredible magicka, the rotation is relatively "easy" and surviving with the pet is also not difficult. Nevertheless , I prefer the variant without the pet, since I am dependent on it. So I set up an alternative and wanted to ask you what I can do about it:


Gear:
3x infallible aether
5x netches touch
1x molag kena/ilambris
1x Iceheart
1x master staff, sharpend
1x MSA staff, sharpend


My Stats:
round about 45k max magicka
~ 58% crit
and 3,2k spell damage, buffed (so with netches touch ~ 3,7k)



Championpoints:

The Ritual
- Thaumaturge: 75
The Attronarch
- Master-at-arms: 16
The Apprentice
- Elemental Expert: 56
- Elfborn: 51
- Spell Erosion: 22

The Shadow
- Tumbling: 20
- Shadow Ward: 2
The Lover
- Arcanist: 75
- Tenacity: 75
The Tower
- Warlord: 48

The Lord
- Bastion: 28
The Lady
- Hardy: 49
- Elemental Defender: 49
- Thick Skinned: 48
The Steed
- Ironclad: 48
- Spell Shield: 2


My DPS is like 30k-31k

Kammakazi

The pet just adds a stupid amount of damage to your parses. Just stick with the pet man.

Deyoz

Lol no way, my non-pet build dps before hotr was about 35k-36k. That was incredible

Because when your pet dies you have a loss of over 5k-7k DPS so a non-pet-build is stronger in most situations (like vAA). Also a pet sorc rotation is ridiculously simple and boring


Furthermore that wasnt my question lol

Olupajmibanan

I would make some replacements to your build if you don't mind.

1. According to my calculations, The Lover mundus with Infused Shock main and Maelstrom Nirnhoned Shock off provides the most dps increase.
Infused is the best main hand destro staff if you can have at least 83% uptime on Berserker.
2. Moondancer is slightly better than Infal on magsorc because magsorc does not use Rearming Trap thus doesn't have access to Minor Force (the better your crit damage is, the better the critical stat gets). But affording Moondancer Infused Shock staff seems impossible.
The difference between Moondanc and Infal is slight. If you afford Infal Shock infused first, do not worry and wear it.
3. 17 points in Spell Erosion are enough.
18200 - 2108 (Infused Crusher) - 5280 (Major Breach) - 4884 (Light armor passive) - 4197 (7 divines Lover) - 100 (base character penetration) = 1631
4.I preffer 2 Illambris even after the nerf, some may argue with me on this tho. It's just my prefference.

Deyoz wrote: »

Lol no way, my non-pet build dps before hotr was about 35k-36k. That was incredible

Sharpened got nerfed badly and so did Thief mundus. I am almost certain that is the case.

red_emu

My sorc is allergic to scaly animals so he can't keep any pets. It gives him a really bad case of exploding fury sneeze.

Deyoz

First, thanks for your answer!

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

1. According to my calculations, The Lover mundus with Infused Shock main and Maelstrom Nirnhoned Shock off provides the most dps increase.
Infused is the best main hand destro staff if you can have at least 83% uptime on Berserker.

Yeah, thats sounds good

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

2. Moondancer is slightly better than Infal on magsorc because magsorc does not use Rearming Trap thus doesn't have access to Minor Force (the better your crit damage is, the better the critical stat gets). But affording Moondancer Infused Shock staff seems impossible.
The difference between Moondanc and Infal is slight. If you afford Infal Shock infused first, do not worry and wear it.

and if u dont have both? :'D (in case of staff)

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

4.I preffer 2 Illambris even after the nerf, some may argue with me on this tho. It's just my prefference.

Okaaaay, I've tested but in my build it makes less damage ... maybe it's because of my sharpend staffs

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Sharpened got nerfed badly and so did Thief mundus. I am almost certain that is the case.

i use the Apprentice at the moment

Croblasta

Deyoz wrote: »

Hey guys,

First: sorry, but I hate pets

Obviously, you get incredible magicka, the rotation is relatively "easy" and surviving with the pet is also not difficult. Nevertheless , I prefer the variant without the pet, since I am dependent on it. So I set up an alternative and wanted to ask you what I can do about it:


Gear:
3x infallible aether
5x netches touch
1x molag kena/ilambris
1x Iceheart
1x master staff, sharpend
1x MSA staff, sharpend


My Stats:
round about 45k max magicka
~ 58% crit
and 3,2k spell damage, buffed (so with netches touch ~ 3,7k)



Championpoints:

The Ritual
- Thaumaturge: 75
The Attronarch
- Master-at-arms: 16
The Apprentice
- Elemental Expert: 56
- Elfborn: 51
- Spell Erosion: 22

The Shadow
- Tumbling: 20
- Shadow Ward: 2
The Lover
- Arcanist: 75
- Tenacity: 75
The Tower
- Warlord: 48

The Lord
- Bastion: 28
The Lady
- Hardy: 49
- Elemental Defender: 49
- Thick Skinned: 48
The Steed
- Ironclad: 48
- Spell Shield: 2


My DPS is like 30k-31k

What skills and rotation are you using?

Deyoz

Croblasta wrote: »

What skills and rotation are you using?

Skills:




Rotation:
(Elemental Rage) -> LA -> Liquid Lightning -> LA -> Blockade -> LA -> Curse -> LA -> WS -> Destructive Clench -> LA -> Force Pulse -> HA -> Force Pulse -> WS (repeat)

seedubsrun

Have you considered pairing your 5-piece netch with a 5-piece Julianos? Then you could just craft a nirnhoned lightning backbar with weapon damage enchant and infused lightning front bar with shock enchant. Keep 1 Kena or Iceheart. If you don't mind only running 2 armor types you could pair Netch with Spider Cultist too it'll boost all destro and your light and heavy attacks. Just a couple options. Your CP and mundus seem pretty on point.

rotaugen454

A lot of guilds don't want pets running in trials, so it's good to find a non-pet option.

NyassaV

OMG STOP USING NETCHES!!! Alcast is a skilled player but that doesn't mean he is a good teacher

SoLooney

you can try 5 netch and 5 julianos, 1 monster shoulder and maelstrom staff, i also had good results with 5 julianos and 5 infall aether despite the nerf.

is your dps self buffed? anyone casting ele drain? mundus stone?

if your group is optimized, you shouldnt need to use sharpened weapons or lover mundus. infused or precise main bar seems to be the best choice with infused or nirnhoned backbar. you might need to put some points into spell erosion, but thats about it assuming your group is really optimized

btw, dps testing on a dummy means even less now, since most people will choose lover to make up for lost pen combined with major fracture or breach.

group dps is even more important now, rock the apprentice mundus and get your 12 man raid to attack a centurion dummy, means a lot more.

seedubsrun

Hollery wrote: »

OMG STOP USING NETCHES!!! Alcast is a skilled player but that doesn't mean he is a good teacher

Netch is awesome for sorc lightning builds when the skills are set up right. I'd be curious as to your reasoning behind saying it's not?

Vaoh

5x Julianos + 5x Netch would be good. Combine with either 1x Iceheart (Julianos staves) or 1x vMA Staff + 1x Master/non-set staff.

This will of course only be great if you use a lot of shock damage. Netch outparses Julianos but only if 75% or more of your damage is Shock damage.

Infallible Aether would be the second 5-piece I recommend. Not sure which setup is better yet but those are the two I'd say are "best" on a non-pet Mag Sorc right now. Then again, you may want to use the typical 2x Ilambris, 5x Julianos, 4x Moondancer as last patch.

Horowonnoe

rotaugen454 wrote: »

A lot of guilds don't want pets running in trials, so it's good to find a non-pet option.

What guilds are those? They are missing out.

ecru

5pc netch + 5pc julianos + 1pc slimecraw and i parse about 31-32k self buffed. aoe/curse on one bar clench/pulse on the other. pulse/crystal frags has higher potential even with netch's imo but is a little unreliable. infused/infused shock/flame lightning staffs. maybe ninrhoned is better, maybe not, doesn't seem to make any difference in the parses tbh. same with weapon damage enchant. +/- 5-10% for any of this stuff imo.

sustain sucks without support. magsorc dps w/out pet kinda sucks in general imo.

i've cleared zero content with this because lol where are raiding guilds anyway? but i'm sure it's fine for literally anything.

Deyoz

Hollery wrote: »

OMG STOP USING NETCHES!!! Alcast is a skilled player but that doesn't mean he is a good teacher

lol

1st: I like @Alcast and his builds but I do not copy them for myself. His Builds are BiS for him and his play style and not for each person

2nd: Your comment actually contradicts itself, since he has beside the mystic build also one for summoner (which you probably play) so....

"OMG STOP USING NECRO!!! Alcast is a skilled ...."

Deyoz

SoLooney wrote: »

you can try 5 netch and 5 julianos, 1 monster shoulder and maelstrom staff, i also had good results with 5 julianos and 5 infall aether despite the nerf.

rly? I also tested it with a MSA staff and 5pc netch + aether but .. it wasn't good

SoLooney wrote: »

is your dps self buffed? anyone casting ele drain? mundus stone?

Mundus: the apprentice
yes, self buffed and a someone has casted ele drain


I know that I dont need anymore sharpend weapons but I've only sharpend master and MSA staffs

Deyoz

Vaoh wrote: »

5x Julianos + 5x Netch would be good. Combine with either 1x Iceheart (Julianos staves) or 1x vMA Staff + 1x Master/non-set staff.

This will of course only be great if you use a lot of shock damage. Netch outparses Julianos but only if 75% or more of your damage is Shock damage.

Infallible Aether would be the second 5-piece I recommend. Not sure which setup is better yet but those are the two I'd say are "best" on a non-pet Mag Sorc right now. Then again, you may want to use the typical 2x Ilambris, 5x Julianos, 4x Moondancer as last patch.

It sounds believable what you say, but why I then still a DPS loss of 4-5k .. (If I play the typical build)

Deyoz

ecru wrote: »

5pc netch + 5pc julianos + 1pc slimecraw and i parse about 31-32k self buffed. aoe/curse on one bar clench/pulse on the other. pulse/crystal frags has higher potential even with netch's imo but is a little unreliable. infused/infused shock/flame lightning staffs. maybe ninrhoned is better, maybe not, doesn't seem to make any difference in the parses tbh. same with weapon damage enchant. +/- 5-10% for any of this stuff imo.

sustain sucks without support. magsorc dps w/out pet kinda sucks in general imo.

i've cleared zero content with this because lol where are raiding guilds anyway? but i'm sure it's fine for literally anything.

Hmm ... I dont wanna believe that julianos staffs are better than MSA staffs

Vaoh

Deyoz wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

5x Julianos + 5x Netch would be good. Combine with either 1x Iceheart (Julianos staves) or 1x vMA Staff + 1x Master/non-set staff.

This will of course only be great if you use a lot of shock damage. Netch outparses Julianos but only if 75% or more of your damage is Shock damage.

Infallible Aether would be the second 5-piece I recommend. Not sure which setup is better yet but those are the two I'd say are "best" on a non-pet Mag Sorc right now. Then again, you may want to use the typical 2x Ilambris, 5x Julianos, 4x Moondancer as last patch.

It sounds believable what you say, but why I then still a DPS loss of 4-5k .. (If I play the typical build)

Not sure. I have been doing pretty great in HotR though damage is a bit strange rn.

Please link a vid of a DPS parse and Ill try to help as much as possible!

Deyoz

Vaoh wrote: »

Please link a vid of a DPS parse and Ill try to help as much as possible!

I'll do that, thanks a lot dude

Vaoh wrote: »

5x Julianos + 5x Netch would be good. Combine with either 1x Iceheart (Julianos staves) or 1x vMA Staff + 1x Master/non-set staff.

Can you tell me which traits your vMA and Master staff has? Because I use sharpend

dpencil1

I got 35.5k with no pet rotation a couple days ago using 5 Juli 5 Netch, 1 Grothdarr, Juli Infused lightning w/Shock frontbar, vMA Infused lightning backbar.

Deyoz

dpencil1 wrote: »

I got 35.5k with no pet rotation a couple days ago using 5 Juli 5 Netch, 1 Grothdarr, Juli Infused lightning w/Shock frontbar, vMA Infused lightning backbar.

Okay, do you think nirn vMA backbar is also good? (I've only sharpend and nirn :'D)

.. and can you tell me your rotation If you dont mind

seedubsrun

Deyoz wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

5pc netch + 5pc julianos + 1pc slimecraw and i parse about 31-32k self buffed. aoe/curse on one bar clench/pulse on the other. pulse/crystal frags has higher potential even with netch's imo but is a little unreliable. infused/infused shock/flame lightning staffs. maybe ninrhoned is better, maybe not, doesn't seem to make any difference in the parses tbh. same with weapon damage enchant. +/- 5-10% for any of this stuff imo.

sustain sucks without support. magsorc dps w/out pet kinda sucks in general imo.

i've cleared zero content with this because lol where are raiding guilds anyway? but i'm sure it's fine for literally anything.

Hmm ... I dont wanna believe that julianos staffs are better than MSA staffs

One of my concerns with HotR would be that some hard to get end game reward gear would no longer be as good. The thing is if you have the right MSA staff they're still very good and if you run a 5+3+2+1 set up (or 5+4+1) they're still the way to go. The thing is if you have a 5+5+1 set up with Julianos weapons, especially nirnhoned backbar, you get the 5 piece bonus+about 200 extra spell damage on the bar, add in a weapon damage glyph and now the DPS your putting out can rival the extra damage the MSA enchant gives. I haven't seen a huge disparity between the two setups so you can still run a MSA backbar if that's your jam. I've just personally seen better results keeping the 5-piece. To which I say, boo Zos.

MyrddinEmrys

seedubsrun wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

OMG STOP USING NETCHES!!! Alcast is a skilled player but that doesn't mean he is a good teacher

Netch is awesome for sorc lightning builds when the skills are set up right. I'd be curious as to your reasoning behind saying it's not?

From my post on a different thread:

Regarding Netch's touch (because I see people talk about it a lot) - The problem with this set it that it only buffs shock spell damage. In order to compete with Julianos, you would have to have 75% of all of your damage output to be from shock damage in order for them to be equal. Anything less than 75% and Julianos wins. Now think about trying to really get 75% of all of your damage output to be shock based... We can easily show this is unreasonable by examining only the main spam attack of the magsorc - force pulse. Force pulse gives ~ 40% shock damage, 30% fire, 30% ice (it should be equal but the shock damage gets a buff from passives), also, on the average sorc rotation, approximately 50% of all damage comes from direct spell attacks (force pulse or crystal frags). We will entirely ignore crystal frags for now, giving NT the benefit of the doubt (since NT would not buff CF). Even in this best case, assuming ALL other forms of damage other than 60% of force pulse were delivered as shock, we still deliver 0.5 * 0.6 = 30% of our damage as non-shock, leaving only 70% to shock (and in reality it would be lower because of crystal frags, curse, etc.) and since this is below the break even point for NT vs. Juli, NT can not be as effective and Julianos, even in the best case.

seedubsrun

MyrddinEmrys wrote: »

seedubsrun wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

OMG STOP USING NETCHES!!! Alcast is a skilled player but that doesn't mean he is a good teacher

Netch is awesome for sorc lightning builds when the skills are set up right. I'd be curious as to your reasoning behind saying it's not?

From my post on a different thread:

Regarding Netch's touch (because I see people talk about it a lot) - The problem with this set it that it only buffs shock spell damage. In order to compete with Julianos, you would have to have 75% of all of your damage output to be from shock damage in order for them to be equal. Anything less than 75% and Julianos wins. Now think about trying to really get 75% of all of your damage output to be shock based... We can easily show this is unreasonable by examining only the main spam attack of the magsorc - force pulse. Force pulse gives ~ 40% shock damage, 30% fire, 30% ice (it should be equal but the shock damage gets a buff from passives), also, on the average sorc rotation, approximately 50% of all damage comes from direct spell attacks (force pulse or crystal frags). We will entirely ignore crystal frags for now, giving NT the benefit of the doubt (since NT would not buff CF). Even in this best case, assuming ALL other forms of damage other than 60% of force pulse were delivered as shock, we still deliver 0.5 * 0.6 = 30% of our damage as non-shock, leaving only 70% to shock (and in reality it would be lower because of crystal frags, curse, etc.) and since this is below the break even point for NT vs. Juli, NT can not be as effective and Julianos, even in the best case.

So it seems that would be the case with a force pulse/frags build but not necessarily a HA build. If you ran a dual lightning staves HA build you would drop force pulse and probably exchange frags for lightning clench. If you still chose to run curse or actually drop a shooting star that would be the only non lightning sources of damage. It would also be a different story if you were using both sets together instead of comparing them against each other. Not to take away from your point because it's definitely valid and great info for OP as well. Just wanted to note that there's certainly instances when it's still better. Thanks for responding to my question.

MyrddinEmrys

seedubsrun wrote: »

MyrddinEmrys wrote: »

seedubsrun wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

OMG STOP USING NETCHES!!! Alcast is a skilled player but that doesn't mean he is a good teacher

Netch is awesome for sorc lightning builds when the skills are set up right. I'd be curious as to your reasoning behind saying it's not?

From my post on a different thread:

Regarding Netch's touch (because I see people talk about it a lot) - The problem with this set it that it only buffs shock spell damage. In order to compete with Julianos, you would have to have 75% of all of your damage output to be from shock damage in order for them to be equal. Anything less than 75% and Julianos wins. Now think about trying to really get 75% of all of your damage output to be shock based... We can easily show this is unreasonable by examining only the main spam attack of the magsorc - force pulse. Force pulse gives ~ 40% shock damage, 30% fire, 30% ice (it should be equal but the shock damage gets a buff from passives), also, on the average sorc rotation, approximately 50% of all damage comes from direct spell attacks (force pulse or crystal frags). We will entirely ignore crystal frags for now, giving NT the benefit of the doubt (since NT would not buff CF). Even in this best case, assuming ALL other forms of damage other than 60% of force pulse were delivered as shock, we still deliver 0.5 * 0.6 = 30% of our damage as non-shock, leaving only 70% to shock (and in reality it would be lower because of crystal frags, curse, etc.) and since this is below the break even point for NT vs. Juli, NT can not be as effective and Julianos, even in the best case.

So it seems that would be the case with a force pulse/frags build but not necessarily a HA build. If you ran a dual lightning staves HA build you would drop force pulse and probably exchange frags for lightning clench. If you still chose to run curse or actually drop a shooting star that would be the only non lightning sources of damage. It would also be a different story if you were using both sets together instead of comparing them against each other. Not to take away from your point because it's definitely valid and great info for OP as well. Just wanted to note that there's certainly instances when it's still better. Thanks for responding to my question.

Glad to be of service

And you are right, Netch CAN out perform Julianos, it is just very difficult. In order to beat out Juli, you have to use one of a very specific set of builds that are fairly limiting in the grand scheme of things. There is also the argument that switching to clench, removing curse, etc, etc, MAY reduce the overall DPS even though they get buffed by Netch. I have never tested that hypothesis though, so at the moment it is only reiterated speculation.

Bkella

MyrddinEmrys wrote: »

seedubsrun wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

OMG STOP USING NETCHES!!! Alcast is a skilled player but that doesn't mean he is a good teacher

Netch is awesome for sorc lightning builds when the skills are set up right. I'd be curious as to your reasoning behind saying it's not?

From my post on a different thread:

Regarding Netch's touch (because I see people talk about it a lot) - The problem with this set it that it only buffs shock spell damage. In order to compete with Julianos, you would have to have 75% of all of your damage output to be from shock damage in order for them to be equal. Anything less than 75% and Julianos wins. Now think about trying to really get 75% of all of your damage output to be shock based... We can easily show this is unreasonable by examining only the main spam attack of the magsorc - force pulse. Force pulse gives ~ 40% shock damage, 30% fire, 30% ice (it should be equal but the shock damage gets a buff from passives), also, on the average sorc rotation, approximately 50% of all damage comes from direct spell attacks (force pulse or crystal frags). We will entirely ignore crystal frags for now, giving NT the benefit of the doubt (since NT would not buff CF). Even in this best case, assuming ALL other forms of damage other than 60% of force pulse were delivered as shock, we still deliver 0.5 * 0.6 = 30% of our damage as non-shock, leaving only 70% to shock (and in reality it would be lower because of crystal frags, curse, etc.) and since this is below the break even point for NT vs. Juli, NT can not be as effective and Julianos, even in the best case.

Well in end game PVE you really shouldn't be spamming force pulse anyways, you throw it out every so often but not spamming. 2 Lightning staves, with wall of elements, liquid lightning, clench, light attacks, heavy attacks, wrath, boundless, OL, and 40% of force pulse will all be buffed more than Julianos. A lot of times I actually use Netch and Elegant with 2 lightning staves. Drop my AoEs and apply clench, 2-3 heavy attacks (also get AoE dmg from that) and reapply. Or I can drop my AoEs and clench, then pop OL for 3-5 light attacks and reapply.

dpencil1

When I did my 35.5k parse, I had 76% Shock damage. It is not too hard to get, and if you're using Julianos with it anyway, drawing a comparison between them is somewhat pointless.

@Deyoz
My rotation was not static. It was based on priorities:
1. Potion, Ulti, and Ele Drain on cooldown
2. Liquid Lightning and Blockade of Storms every 8 seconds
3. Haunting Curse reapplied as soon after second explosion as possible (front-barred for easier access)
4. Heavy attack once or twice in each rotation after dots are up depending on how much magicka is left (always leading into Force Pulse or Haunting Curse)
5. Force Pulse when there's nothing else to do
6. Crystal Frags any time it procs
7. Use Endless Fury during execute, keeping Liquid Lightning and Blockade up

Bar setup:
1. Crystal Frags, Force Pulse, Haunting Curse, Inner Light, Bound Aegis, Shooting Star
2. Liquid Lightning, Blockade of Storms, Endless Fury, Ele Drain (Empowered Ward in group), Bound Aegis, Thunderous Rage

Edit: I'm sure Nirn vMA is fine. The nice thing about Infused is its benefit to LA and HA stays when you barswap, and the added Spell Damage almost equalls Julianos, so there's very little SD loss only having Julianos' 5th piece bonus on the front bar.

Vaoh

Deyoz wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Please link a vid of a DPS parse and Ill try to help as much as possible!

I'll do that, thanks a lot dude

Vaoh wrote: »

5x Julianos + 5x Netch would be good. Combine with either 1x Iceheart (Julianos staves) or 1x vMA Staff + 1x Master/non-set staff.

Can you tell me which traits your vMA and Master staff has? Because I use sharpend

Infused would be the best trait for all of the staves.